Danish Study on Fantasy Autism-Thimerosal Link

"Roger Schlafly" wrote in message
. net...
"Eric Bohlman" wrote
Thimerosal was in other vaccines (and still is, in smaller amounts).
People were concerned about the total amount of mercury
that goes into kids.
Which excuses statements that the thimerosal in MMR causes autism
exactly
how?

What statements? I don't know what statements you are referring to,
but I think you missed the point. Most people don't like thimerosal in
vaccines, and they don't want it in any vaccines. US kids now get
about 21 vaccine shots between birth and age 2, and it is hard to
keep track of which have thimerosal and which don't.

You know, Roger, there is this neat thing called the "Internet." There is a
way of finding pages on the Internet called "Google." Forexample, with
simple keywords ( thimerosal + vaccines + content ), you can find out how
thimerosal vaccines have. The site listed has your answer:
http://www.vaccinesafety.edu/thi-table.htm.

Now, please don't excuse someone attacking vaccines for having bad
information. If someone makes a claim, he should be able to back it up.

Apparently someone in this thread thinks he found an example
of some anonymous person making a slight and inconsequential
misstatement of the facts.

Not a slight and inconsequential mistatement of fact. The person was basing
his arguement on thimerosal in the vaccines.

Big deal.

Only if you consider honesty and facts important for an arguement.

The fact is that thimerosal was being
used in several childhood vaccines at level that exceeded safety
regulations.

Irrelevent. The arguement was that mercury from MMR causes autism.

In addition, the form of mercury in vaccines has never been shown to harm
any child in the quantities that used to be used in vaccines.

They were removed from most vaccines because theoretically, it seemed to be
a good idea, despite the lack of evidence that the thimerosal was harmful.

Jeff

"Mark Probert" wrote in message
. net...

(...)

However, if mercury somehow makes one more susceptible to whatever
causes
autism, you can still end up with more boys than girls affected.

Either way, the people who believe that autism is caused by vaccines
have
yet to provide much evidence that autism is caused by vaccines. In
addition,
there is very convincing evidence that autism is not caused by vaccines,
including developmental neuroscience, pathology and immunology.

I think you let the anti-vacs off too lightly. There has never been any
evidence showing that there is a causal link. None. Nada. What they use
is,
as best conjecture or stupidity. At worst, outright lies.

There was sufficient evidence to form a hypothesis that vaccines cause
autism. In addition, the timing of autism and vaccines, while totally
coincidental, would support the hypothesis. However, the hypothesis has been
tested and found to be false.

In addition, a lot of the anitvacc's aren't rational. They just know their
kids or neighbor kids or grandkids were harmed by vaccines. Of course, it
was total coincidence and the signs of autism are clear in video tapes of
the kids before they got the shots. So I believe many antivacc's are
mislead, but well-meaning people.

Finally, I don't care what their motivation is. Attacking the people does no
good. The best thing, IMHO, is to educate people about the truth with real
evidence.

Jeff

"Jeff" wrote
simple keywords ( thimerosal + vaccines + content ), you can find out how
thimerosal vaccines have. The site listed has your answer:
http://www.vaccinesafety.edu/thi-table.htm.

Send it to "ratbag" Peter.

Apparently someone in this thread thinks he found an example
of some anonymous person making a slight and inconsequential
misstatement of the facts.
Not a slight and inconsequential mistatement of fact. The person was
basing
his arguement on thimerosal in the vaccines.

And the fact is ...

The fact is that thimerosal was being
used in several childhood vaccines at level that exceeded safety
regulations.

"Roger Schlafly" wrote in message
et...
"Jeff" wrote
simple keywords ( thimerosal + vaccines + content ), you can find out
how
thimerosal vaccines have. The site listed has your answer:
http://www.vaccinesafety.edu/thi-table.htm.

Send it to "ratbag" Peter.

You stated "....US kids now get
about 21 vaccine shots between birth and age 2, and it is hard to
keep track of which have thimerosal and which don't...."

And I responded: "You know, Roger, there is this neat thing called the
"Internet." There is a
way of finding pages on the Internet called "Google." Forexample, with
simple keywords ( thimerosal + vaccines + content ), you can find out how
thimerosal vaccines have. The site listed has your answer:
http://www.vaccinesafety.edu/thi-table.htm."

I demonstrated that is is easy to keep track of which vaccines have
thimerasol in them.

Apparently someone in this thread thinks he found an example
of some anonymous person making a slight and inconsequential
misstatement of the facts.
Not a slight and inconsequential mistatement of fact. The person was
basing
his arguement on thimerosal in the vaccines.

And the fact is ...

The fact is that thimerosal was being
used in several childhood vaccines at level that exceeded safety
regulations.

Thanks again for your editing my remarks without indicating that fact. You
show your true colors: Intellectual dishonesty.

Too bad you resort to weasal tactics instead of answering our concerns, like
that one that thimerosal in MMR was a key part of the arguement that
vaccines cause autism.

Jeff

"Jeff" wrote
http://www.vaccinesafety.edu/thi-table.htm."
I demonstrated that is is easy to keep track of which vaccines have
thimerasol in them.
[usual ad hominem attack snipped]

The mercury stuff is called thimerosal, not thimerasol. I suggest that
you correct your own petty errors, before launching into an attack
on the petty and insignificant errors of others.

"Roger Schlafly" wrote in message
t...
"Jeff" wrote
http://www.vaccinesafety.edu/thi-table.htm."
I demonstrated that is is easy to keep track of which vaccines have
thimerasol in them.
[usual ad hominem attack snipped]

The mercury stuff is called thimerosal, not thimerasol. I suggest that
you correct your own petty errors, before launching into an attack
on the petty and insignificant errors of others.

Nice comeback. Basing an argument on thimerosal being in a particular
vaccine when it is not in that vaccine is not an "insignificant error."

And I am sorry that you think of my questioning your debating style
(changing the subject, failing to answer questions and failing to quote
significant parts of a previous post) as a ad hominem attack.

BTW, if attacking my spelling is the best you can come up with....

Jeff

On Mon, 08 Sep 2003 17:14:32 GMT, "Roger Schlafly"
wrote:

"Eric Bohlman" wrote
Thimerosal was in other vaccines (and still is, in smaller amounts).
People were concerned about the total amount of mercury
that goes into kids.
Which excuses statements that the thimerosal in MMR causes autism exactly
how?

What statements? I don't know what statements you are referring to,
but I think you missed the point. Most people don't like thimerosal in
vaccines, and they don't want it in any vaccines. US kids now get
about 21 vaccine shots between birth and age 2, and it is hard to
keep track of which have thimerosal and which don't.

No, you missed the point. Bowditch responded specifically in this
thread, in which the original poster commented on anti-vac liars,
with: "At least once a month I see the 'MMR has mercury' lie." He was
not discussing mercury in vaccines in general. He was referring to the
specific, deliberate lie propagated by anti-vac morons that MMR has
thimerosal. It has nothing to do with your opinion on whether people
in general like thimerosal or not.

Apparently someone in this thread thinks he found an example
of some anonymous person making a slight and inconsequential
misstatement of the facts. Big deal. The fact is that thimerosal was being
used in several childhood vaccines at level that exceeded safety
regulations.

Here we go again prefacing a lie with "The fact is..."

Anyway, your dismissal of the "MMR has mercury" lie as a "slight and
inconsequential misstatement of facts" again betrays your ignorance
and stupidity as well as your tacit acknowledgement that it's OK to
lie about vaccines when tricking people into not getting them. When
people decide not to get MMR because they think there is mercury in
it, and measles rises up and kill people, it's not "inconsequential."
And when someone deliberately makes a claim that is wrong, it's not a
"misstatement of facts," it's a lie.

As to your claim that someone only "thinks" he found "an" example,
here's my response to John "whaleto" Scum-amore making the same stupid
claim over a year ago that, "Gee, no one really thinks MMR has mercury
or would say it does, right?" on a very similar thread as this one:

----------------

From: (PF Riley)
Newsgroups: misc.health.alternative,misc.kids.health,sci.med
Subject: Mayor of London advises parents to shun MMR jabs
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2002 20:24:00 GMT
Message-ID:

On Sun, 21 Jul 2002 14:43:33 +0000 (UTC), "john"
wrote:

"Peter Bowditch" wrote in message
I have never claimed that the anti-vaccination liars "believe" that
MMR contains mercury. I have claimed that they "say" that MMR contains
mercury.

I don't know of any vaccine activist claiming mmr contains mercury.

Well, now you do:


From http://www.wellbeingjournal.com/MMR.htm

"Most vaccines, including the MMR, contain ethyl mercury or
thimerosal, an organic neurotoxic mercury compound that is used as a
preservative."


From http://www.linkny.com/~civitas/page220.html

"The latter symptoms are the same as those of mercury poisoning, and
the MMR (measles-mumps-rubella) vaccine contains thimerosal, a mercury
compound used as a preservative in MMR and other vaccines."


From
http://www.doula-love.cityslide.com/articles/articles.cfm/477300

"Besides its proposed link to autism, the combination MMR vaccine
contains thimerosal, a preservative that uses the toxic element
mercury as an active ingredient..."


From http://www.nationalspeech.com/thimerosal.htm

"Children receive a cocktail of vaccinations beginning at birth.
Most of these vaccines, such as Hepatitis B, Diphtheria, Tetanus,
Pertussis (DTaP), Haemophilis Influenzae Type b (Hib), and Measles,
Mumps, Rubella (MMR), are used as preventative measures of once deadly
diseases. However, these vaccines also contain the preservative
thimerosal, which is designed to minimize bacterial growth in the
vaccine."


Is
there a better way to advertise your ignorance and lose an argument than to
claim that? It doesn't make any sense--just a lie you are spreading.

Are you going to take this back now? Admit that Bowditch was right?
And admit that you're ignorant of the ignorance of anti-vacs? (Or
maybe you're just pretending you didn't know?)

We're waiting.

PF

----------------

Or, Roger, how about this one from May:

----------------

From: (PF Riley)
Newsgroups: misc.kids.health,misc.health.alternative
Subject: Still pushing bull
Date: Thu, 29 May 2003 04:36:31 GMT
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com
Message-ID:

On Thu, 29 May 2003 04:02:48 GMT, Mark Probert
wrote:

Can you Brits please recall him?

Wakefield told the approximately 100 people attending the conference
that his first encounter with an autistic child led him to question the
conventional wisdom about the causes of autism. His subsequent research
linked a mercury-containing preservative in the Measles-Mumps-Rubella,
or MMR, vaccine with autism.

http://www.wset.com/showstory.hrb?f=n&s=88632&f1=loc

There's more from that article:

"In the five years since he saw that first patient, Wakefield has
extensively studied bowel disease in children with autism. He has
identified an inflammatory condition that seems to be linked to the
MMR vaccine. MMR contains the preservative Thimerosal, which has the
toxic element mercury among its ingredients."

(For those who don't know: MMR does not contain thimerosal.)

PF Riley

"I don't know of any vaccine activist claiming mmr contains mercury.
Is there a better way to advertise your ignorance and lose an argument
than to claim that? It doesn't make any sense--just a lie you are
spreading."

-- John Scudamore, July 21, 2002

----------------

So, Roger, would you still claim that someone on this thread just
"thinks" he found one person who made a "misstatement" about MMR and
mercury? Does this answer your question I quoted at the very beginning
of this posting? Namely, "What statements? I don't know what
statements you are referring to..."

PF

"PF Riley" wrote
No, you missed the point. Bowditch responded specifically in this
thread, in which the original poster commented on anti-vac liars,
with: "At least once a month I see the 'MMR has mercury' lie." He was
not discussing mercury in vaccines in general.

Maybe he wasn't, but most of his sources were. Almost everybody
gets the full set of vaccines, or gets none of them. What difference
does it make which vaccines have thimerosal? If someone just wants
to put out some anti-vaccine propaganda, all he has to say is that
some of the vaccines have thimerosal.

It is much easier to find pro-vaccine propaganda that says that
there is no thimerosal in any of the vaccines any more. That is
also misinformation, as there is still some thimerosal in some of
the vaccines.

Bowditch gets all excited because he finds some trivial and
inconsequential misstatements in some fringe websites, while
he ignores larger errors in pro-vaccine sites.

On Mon, 08 Sep 2003 13:54:00 GMT, Peter Bowditch
wrote:

Which is why I say that the people who keep repeating it are not
mistaken, they are lying.

I think some are actively lying, while the others have their hands over
their ears repeating 'I'm not listening' over and over so they can't
hear you.

It's the flaming loony vs. malicious liar distinction. I don't know how
ultimately important it is, but I believe it's there.

"Roger Schlafly" wrote in message .net...
"PF Riley" wrote
No, you missed the point. Bowditch responded specifically in this
thread, in which the original poster commented on anti-vac liars,
with: "At least once a month I see the 'MMR has mercury' lie." He was
not discussing mercury in vaccines in general.

Maybe he wasn't, but most of his sources were. Almost everybody
gets the full set of vaccines, or gets none of them. What difference
does it make which vaccines have thimerosal?

As a grandparent, it makes a difference to me. It makes a difference
to anyone who wants to be properly informed. It makes a difference to
anyone interested in vaccine policy. It doesn't seem to make a
difference to some who are a bit more zealous of their positions
against all vaccines, apparently.

If someone just wants
to put out some anti-vaccine propaganda, all he has to say is that
some of the vaccines have thimerosal.

Half truths and innuendo....why not be a bit more informative? NVIC
uses this "generalization" and as such meets the fringe criterion?

It is much easier to find pro-vaccine propaganda that says that
there is no thimerosal in any of the vaccines any more.

Interesting - care to show us all how easy?

That is
also misinformation, as there is still some thimerosal in some of
the vaccines.

Indeed there is. Most do not, in the US at least. A few do. That is
why specificity in information is relevant. And that answers your
question "What difference does it make which vaccines have
thimerosal?" With respect to thimerosal, there are NO routinely
recommended pediatric vaccines where a preservative free (or at
minimum a thimerosal free) formulation is not available. So users
have a choice and that is why the information is important and
relevant.

Bowditch gets all excited because he finds some trivial and
inconsequential misstatements in some fringe websites, while
he ignores larger errors in pro-vaccine sites.

Hardly trivial, certainly not inconsequential but agreeably fringe.

CDC reports that "Today, all routinely recommended pediatric vaccines
manufactured for the U.S. market contain no thimerosal or only trace
amounts."

"Influenza (flu) vaccine from some manufacturers still contains
thimerosal."

"With the newly formulated vaccines, the maximum cumulative exposure
during the first six months of life will now be less than three
micrograms of mercury."

And in case you want to argue that the CDC is not pro-vaccine - read
your own website:

"The CDC gives a wealth of information, but also slants it to favor
its vaccine policies."

Now, what about anti-vacs?

http://www.thimerosal-news.com/html/info.html

This webpage, last updated in February, 2003, contains this
information:

"While mercury levels that children and infants are exposed to have
been reduced, they are still being exposed to potentially toxic levels
of mercury. As well, any children who received thimerosal-containing
vaccines before the levels of thimerosal were reduced or removed are
potentially at risk for the aforementioned health risks.

Two new hepatitis B vaccine products and a new Hib product are being
developed that will be entirely thimerosal-free. One of the four
licensed DTaP vaccines is already thimerosal free, and at least one
other thimerosal free DTaP vaccine is anticipated to be licensed by
early 2001. Thus, the likely exposure of thimerosal that an infant is
exposed to should go down by some 60% by 2001."


and here's something from the Well Being Journal Vol. 10, No. 3 ~
Summer 2001. MMR Vaccine and Autism by Barbara Brewitt, Ph.D., and H.
Lynn Amsbury, M.D.

http://www.wellbeingjournal.com

"The live measles is known to suppress the immune system with the
measles having many similarities to HIV. It must be asked if it is
worth the risk of injecting children with immature immune systems with
MMR vaccines that contain living viruses and toxic mercury-containing
additives (thimerosal)."

NVIC's website perpetuates the myth by their link to a BBC interview
in which one anti-vac states that MMR contains mercury.

NVIC includes this statement:

"While today, most, but not all, infant vaccines are mercury-free. The
preservative is still added to formulations for influenza (flu
vaccines), diphtheria-tetanus, tetanus, hepatitis B, pneumococcal and
rabies. This year the Centers for Disease Control (CDC) recommended
for the first time that healthy children receive influenza vaccine. No
influenza vaccines are available that are completely mercury-free,
although two brands only contain trace amounts."

Contrasts.

js