judging schools

toypup wrote:
"Circe" wrote in message
news:HL04c.4670$Nj.209@fed1read01...
That said, could you explain how objective testing that measured a
student's current performance upon entering a grade and then
measured performance at the end of the school year (which would
measure progress) would cause grade inflation? IMO, such testing
would be *far* better at telling us how the teachers are doing
when it comes to teaching than the current, grade-level based
standardized tests.

If my job depended on grade improving, I would tend towards lower
grades early on and higher grades at the end of the year. It
wouldn't be blatant, but deciding between a B- and a C+ . . . you
get the picture. It probably wouldn't be a concious decision,
either, more like a placebo effect, subconcious.

But how could you do that if you had an *objective* test to determine
exactly what the student could do and that performance on that test was
measured against the curriculum?

By the way, I'm not suggesting that measurements be based on whether the
grade *improves* but on whether the student actually *learns* and
progresses. IOW, a student who is below grade level at the beginning of the
year might *still* be below grade level at the end of the year (getting the
equivalent, let's say, of D on the report card), but if that student is
*closer* to grade level at the end of the year than at the beginning (as
measured by objective testing), then that's an improvement and it's clear
that the child learned something. By the same token, if a child starts out
well above grade level at the start of the year and only tests at the
roughly same level at the end of the year, then there *isn't* progress and
the child clearly *didn't* learn much of anything. In such an example, the
school/teacher was more successful in educating the child who received the D
than the child who received the A, yet most current measures don't recognize
this simple fact.
--
Be well, Barbara
(Julian [6], Aurora [4], and Vernon's [2] mom)

All opinions expressed in this post are well-reasoned and insightful.
Needless to say, they are not those of my Internet Service Provider, its
other subscribers or lackeys. Anyone who says otherwise is itchin' for a
fight. -- with apologies to Michael Feldman

"Circe" wrote in message
news:qR14c.4686$Nj.364@fed1read01...
toypup wrote:
"Circe" wrote in message
news:HL04c.4670$Nj.209@fed1read01...
That said, could you explain how objective testing that measured a
student's current performance upon entering a grade and then
measured performance at the end of the school year (which would
measure progress) would cause grade inflation? IMO, such testing
would be *far* better at telling us how the teachers are doing
when it comes to teaching than the current, grade-level based
standardized tests.

If my job depended on grade improving, I would tend towards lower
grades early on and higher grades at the end of the year. It
wouldn't be blatant, but deciding between a B- and a C+ . . . you
get the picture. It probably wouldn't be a concious decision,
either, more like a placebo effect, subconcious.

But how could you do that if you had an *objective* test to determine
exactly what the student could do and that performance on that test was
measured against the curriculum?

The teacher can make the test easier or harder to suit her needs.

toypup wrote:
"Circe" wrote in message
news:qR14c.4686$Nj.364@fed1read01...
But how could you do that if you had an *objective* test to
determine exactly what the student could do and that performance
on that test was measured against the curriculum?

The teacher can make the test easier or harder to suit her needs.

Not if the test is based on the mandated curriculum and standards.
--
Be well, Barbara
(Julian [6], Aurora [4], and Vernon's [2] mom)

All opinions expressed in this post are well-reasoned and insightful.
Needless to say, they are not those of my Internet Service Provider, its
other subscribers or lackeys. Anyone who says otherwise is itchin' for a
fight. -- with apologies to Michael Feldman

"Circe" wrote in message
news424c.4691$Nj.53@fed1read01...
toypup wrote:
"Circe" wrote in message
news:qR14c.4686$Nj.364@fed1read01...
But how could you do that if you had an *objective* test to
determine exactly what the student could do and that performance
on that test was measured against the curriculum?

The teacher can make the test easier or harder to suit her needs.

Not if the test is based on the mandated curriculum and standards.

Almost none of the tests we give during a school year are teacher-created.
The GRADE, DIBELS and TCAP tests are standardized, and the 6 weeks tests
come from the district office. While assessment is ongoing, the main
assessments come from outside the school and classroom.



--
Be well, Barbara
(Julian [6], Aurora [4], and Vernon's [2] mom)

All opinions expressed in this post are well-reasoned and insightful.
Needless to say, they are not those of my Internet Service Provider, its
other subscribers or lackeys. Anyone who says otherwise is itchin' for a
fight. -- with apologies to Michael Feldman

"Circe" wrote in message
news424c.4691$Nj.53@fed1read01...
toypup wrote:
"Circe" wrote in message
news:qR14c.4686$Nj.364@fed1read01...
But how could you do that if you had an *objective* test to
determine exactly what the student could do and that performance
on that test was measured against the curriculum?

The teacher can make the test easier or harder to suit her needs.

Not if the test is based on the mandated curriculum and standards.

I've never been a teacher, but I've a student most of my life. A test based
on anything can be made more or less difficult, answers made more or less
obvious.

In article , Tom Enright
says...

I found P. Tierney particularly disengaged when she wrote:

"Tom Enright" wrote in message
om...

Yes, I remember that you are a proponent of paying them
five dollars an hour.

No I did not. I believe that teachers should be paid what they
are worth, whether $5.00 an hour or $100.

And a sub-minimum wage was acceptable to you.

If you mean that it would acceptable to me to be paid that, no, it
would not be. If you mean that it would be acceptable to pay
teachers that, as long as a quality product was produced, yes,
it would be acceptable.

And what is your evalution as to whether or not a quality product would be
produced with a sub-minimum wage??

Banty

"Tom Enright" wrote in message
om...
I found P. Tierney particularly disengaged when she wrote:

"Tom Enright" wrote in message
om...

Yes, I remember that you are a proponent of paying them
five dollars an hour.

No I did not. I believe that teachers should be paid what they
are worth, whether $5.00 an hour or $100.

And a sub-minimum wage was acceptable to you.

If you mean that it would acceptable to me to be paid that, no, it
would not be. If you mean that it would be acceptable to pay
teachers that, as long as a quality product was produced, yes,
it would be acceptable.

What defines a "quality product" is the real debate.

Everyone has an opinion as to what constitutes "worth" on
that matter.

They may, but their opinion doesn't matter. The free market decides
their
worth.

Employers have realized that they often don't have to pay
higher wages to get the work that they need, and that if one
in a field raises their wages, then the others will have to follow
suit. It helps the bottom line for them to all keep wages lower.

Yes it does.

And that's really the end desire of those wanting to end union
contracts. Teachers in right-to-work states are paid less, and
the students are not doing better.

I can't say anything about the Detroit situation, but the latter
isn't correct regarding unions. But yes, they do want fair pay
and benefits, well above your five dollar an hour suggestion.

They do not want fair pay and benefits. They want the highest pay and
benefits while providing the least amount of work.

As a union member, I had no desire to do the "least amount of work".

You? I have no doubt about that.

Any union is the sum of its' members. That's how teachers in
general are, then? Okay, but I don't know what solid evidence
you base that on.

I very much doubt
if the union would turn down a pay raise.

And who would?

Not me.

So why does it surprise you that teachers wouldn't do the same?



P. Tierney

"Banty" wrote in message
...
In article , Tom Enright
says...

I found P. Tierney particularly disengaged when she wrote:

"Tom Enright" wrote in message
om...

Yes, I remember that you are a proponent of paying them
five dollars an hour.

No I did not. I believe that teachers should be paid what they
are worth, whether $5.00 an hour or $100.

And a sub-minimum wage was acceptable to you.

If you mean that it would acceptable to me to be paid that, no, it
would not be. If you mean that it would be acceptable to pay
teachers that, as long as a quality product was produced, yes,
it would be acceptable.

And what is your evalution as to whether or not a quality product would be
produced with a sub-minimum wage??

Banty
Trust me, it wouldn't. While teachers are willing to put up with a lot of
abuse for a good cause, the salary is already making getting good teachers
for some subjects difficult (in hard sciences, for example, the maximum
teaching salary is about the starting salary for most jobs requiring the
degree-the lowest paying job in the field available for someone with a PhD
is education, either secondary or university).

And how do you judge "what they're worth"? Test scores? You can't control
for the students coming in, so a teacher who teaches in a district where
students come into kindergarten reading will look better than one who
teaches in a district where students come in at a much lower level.
Improvement of students? Maybe, but again, it isn't all the teacher's fault
or choice. One child who spaces out on the test and does pretty dot patterns
could blow it. Or what about teachers who have subjects which aren't tested?
I teach music. There is NO good standardized test, at any level, for music
yet. Even the AP exams and GRE are dismissed by many university and
conservatory programs. How do you standardize an audition?

"Tom Enright" wrote in message
om...
I found P. Tierney particularly disengaged when she wrote:

BTW, Tom, P. Tierney is a *he*.
--
Be well, Barbara
(Julian [6], Aurora [4], and Vernon's [2] mom)

All opinions expressed in this post are well-reasoned and insightful.
Needless to say, they are not those of my Internet Service Provider, its
other subscribers or lackeys. Anyone who says otherwise is itchin' for a
fight. -- with apologies to Michael Feldman

In article , Donna Metler says...


"Banty" wrote in message
...
In article , Tom Enright
says...

I found P. Tierney particularly disengaged when she wrote:

"Tom Enright" wrote in message
om...

Yes, I remember that you are a proponent of paying them
five dollars an hour.

No I did not. I believe that teachers should be paid what they
are worth, whether $5.00 an hour or $100.

And a sub-minimum wage was acceptable to you.

If you mean that it would acceptable to me to be paid that, no, it
would not be. If you mean that it would be acceptable to pay
teachers that, as long as a quality product was produced, yes,
it would be acceptable.

And what is your evalution as to whether or not a quality product would be
produced with a sub-minimum wage??

Banty
Trust me, it wouldn't. While teachers are willing to put up with a lot of
abuse for a good cause, the salary is already making getting good teachers
for some subjects difficult (in hard sciences, for example, the maximum
teaching salary is about the starting salary for most jobs requiring the
degree-the lowest paying job in the field available for someone with a PhD
is education, either secondary or university).

Oh absolutely right. You're not going to get the people you need; they're not
going to stay, and it's a problem even now with current salaries. And a
medium-term $$-making enterprise wont' have to stick around for the fixes and
the consequences. But the public at large has to - which is why this is
essentially a public enterprise.

That answer from Tom was ideology with blinders on.

Banty