Plant Prattlings....was....Would you trust CPS which has FAILED EVERY STATE

On 19 May 2004 14:04:25 GMT, (Fern5827) wrote:

....yet more prattling nonsense which she posted off topic to aps,
instead of ascps where it is on topic...I fixed it for you, rummy
dummy.

And I'll answer your question with another:

Would you trust CPS, who while operating under federal guidelines that
are being questioned now, as I have in the past, as being inoperable
for adequate delivery of client services, was able to bring down the
number of abuses and even reduced the number of sexual abuse cases by
40%?

They have done what pilots have been made heros for...the safe landing
of a badly disabled aircraft.

With all the crippling, that you barnyard hens take as a license for
YOU to peck at them, CPS has managed to do this, and save children
lives.

And your idea of reform is to point only at their faults and inability
to make FEDERAL GUILDELINES work.

And they were simply attempting to bring MY TAX DOLLARS BACK TO MY
STATE FOR SERVICES I DEMAND OF THE STATE.

Why should families trust the expertise of CPS

Because they have proven by the numbers posted by you and even the
biggest disemmbler here, The Douggie, to have done a terrific job
under nearly impossible odds.

which now has failed in every
state to meet even minimum standards of efficacy and performance.

Set by the feds, while dangling money? Sure, dummy. Sure.

Why have experts started asking the same questions I do and have for
some time now, that you and your Bud, Douggie the Magnificent have
ignored?

The criteria for how funding is applied is controlled by the feds, and
it is questionable if states can meet the needs of clients by the
application of the federal criteria. In fact it's proving not the
failure of the states, but the failure of the FEDS....AS PER USUAL.

In other words, the fix was in from the beginning for the states to
fail. This was discussed in state meetings and conferences I attended
on ASFA the year it passed into law.

Thoughtful adminstrators with years of experience with the feds, met
with senior managers and most importantly, senior workers, nearly all
MSWs, to see if they could make the federal mandates work.

I can see now in retrospect, something I challenged the federal folks
present at those meetings over, that the fix was in. I and many line
workers I knew were furious over the acceptance of policies of service
delivery that could plainly be seen as doomed to fail.

Some state people got it, but they didn't figure on the duplicity of
the feds being nearly the level I had reason to believe, so my
concerns were set aside with promises of cooperation by the feds being
swallowed by the state....under great pressure from the gov and
legislation to make the federal funding through ASFA and Title IV-E
monies work out.

The key component for failure? The ignoring by the feds of the reality
of client behavior and responses to services, a matter of historical
case record...and that is exactly how it has turned out.

The current screaming for more up front services to keep families
together was standard ops in the decades prior to CAPTA. And what it
got was MORE drug abuse and partying while CPS babysat children
through their entire childhoods.

16 states FAILED ON EVERY submeasure of performance.

Yep, just as they were set up to do. If the criteria is to meet a
certain level of needs calculated by a ratio, or number score of
client services delivered, and the FEDS control how the states deliver
those services WHO IS IN CONTROL OF THE FAILURES?

You, of course are never going to answer, but hopefully other readers
will get the point.

It's like this. I'll give you 20 millions dollars if you can jump
fourteen feet high without mechanical assistance...you train for six
months, (Hell, for 20 mil I'd even try) and just prior to the big day,
I come along and mention that I forgot to tell you that I'm breaking
your kneecaps today.

California, which houses 20% of the nation's foster populace, failed
Federal
audits on every performance scale.

Considering the decades long crash of the economy in CA I'm not the
least surprised at the 20% figure. If you've traveled in California,
as I have, and seen places like West LA, South Sacramento (a town I
spent some teen years in), Marysville, East Oakland, and other
sinkholes of poverty and crime, you'd wonder how the number isn't
higher.

You and your cronies are liars who hide from just such facts.

And yes, there are some CPS failures. It is amazing to me the states
have succeeded in, since the passing of ASFA, to do what they
have...reduce the number of abuse and neglect cases.

Now how did they do THAT, yet "fail" to pass federal standards, eh?

Could it be the standards are WRONG?

http://www.familyrightsassociation.com

Bull**** organization that is yet another purveyor of half truths and
lies buried in more layers of BS. And you pimp for them regularly.

The perfect vehicle for abusive dangerous parents to hide behind.

Kane

Kane writes:

Would you trust CPS, who while operating under federal guidelines that
are being questioned now, as I have in the past, as being inoperable
for adequate delivery of client services, was able to bring down the
number of abuses and even reduced the number of sexual abuse cases by
40%?

Hi, Kane!

I don't know what other members of this forum have been saying to you, but
they sure have you on the run. I thought you were telling Fern weeks ago
that the reduction in child sexual abuse cases was a statistical
misreporting -- something about them not counting a certain age group,
etc -- and that child sexual abuse was still going on at the same, or
higher, rates but reported by agencies less. Are you now saying that
incidents of child sexual abuse have gone down 40 percent?

They have done what pilots have been made heros for...the safe landing
of a badly disabled aircraft.

That the Pew Commission -- made up of the some of the same child welfare
experts we have been quoting for years -- has proposed reforms that will
bring CPS down to earth is hardly a heroic act of CPS administrators in the
left seat.

With all the crippling, that you barnyard hens take as a license for
YOU to peck at them, CPS has managed to do this, and save children
lives.

Who on earth do you claim has crippled CPS?? Reform measures now in front
of Congress and state legislatures across the country may change CPS
practice if they are passed, but CPS malfunction during the last three
decades was the product of out-of-control agencies will almost no
accountability to anyone.

And your idea of reform is to point only at their faults and inability
to make FEDERAL GUILDELINES work.

No, the idea of the reforms I have posted and those now suggested by the Pew
Commission is to change federal guidelines and mandates. Most especially,
as many of us have written in this forum for years, changing Title IV-E
funding to a capped entitlement that can be used by the states in a manner
they see fit. We have constantly advocated for taking the foster care, poor
kids strings off this funding.

And they were simply attempting to bring MY TAX DOLLARS BACK TO MY
STATE FOR SERVICES I DEMAND OF THE STATE.

In simply attempting to bring back tax dollars to their state, CPS agency's
incarcerated thousands of innocent children in foster care. Since those
precious tax dollars were in the form of Title IV-E foster care funding, the
agencies removed children from innocent parents out of greed.

Why should families trust the expertise of CPS

Because they have proven by the numbers posted by you and even the
biggest disemmbler here, The Douggie, to have done a terrific job
under nearly impossible odds.

The Pew Commission has found that the foster care system is "unquestionably
broken" and that CPS has done far less than a "terrific" job.

which now has failed in every
state to meet even minimum standards of efficacy and performance.

Set by the feds, while dangling money? Sure, dummy. Sure.

Why have experts started asking the same questions I do and have for
some time now, that you and your Bud, Douggie the Magnificent have
ignored?

Many of those experts have been asking the same questions for many years.
Child and family advocates have said for years that the foster care system
was broken and that the federal funding through Title IV-E should be used
for purposes other than foster care.

Doug

On Thu, 20 May 2004 02:15:40 -0400, "Doug" wrote:

Kane writes:

Would you trust CPS, who while operating under federal guidelines
that
are being questioned now, as I have in the past, as being
inoperable
for adequate delivery of client services, was able to bring down
the
number of abuses and even reduced the number of sexual abuse cases
by
40%?

Hi, Kane!

I don't know what other members of this forum have been saying to
you, but
they sure have you on the run. I thought you were telling Fern weeks
ago
that the reduction in child sexual abuse cases was a statistical
misreporting -- something about them not counting a certain age
group,
etc -- and that child sexual abuse was still going on at the same, or
higher, rates but reported by agencies less. Are you now saying that
incidents of child sexual abuse have gone down 40 percent?

Nope, still saying reports have.

And that YOU assholes can't have it both ways.......claiming a failure
of CPS but claiming a decrease in sex abuse as a defense for crippling
CPS further for lack of work to do.

Either CPS did or didn't have an effect on the percentage drop...now
which is it you liar?

They have done what pilots have been made heros for...the safe
landing
of a badly disabled aircraft.

That the Pew Commission -- made up of the some of the same child
welfare
experts we have been quoting for years -- has proposed reforms that
will
bring CPS down to earth is hardly a heroic act of CPS administrators
in the
left seat.

You have your seats mixed up. Unless you think the experts are the
copilots.

Stop blaming CPS for what was forced on them.

With all the crippling, that you barnyard hens take as a license
for
YOU to peck at them, CPS has managed to do this, and save children
lives.

Who on earth do you claim has crippled CPS?? Reform measures now in
front
of Congress and state legislatures across the country may change CPS
practice if they are passed, but CPS malfunction during the last
three
decades was the product of out-of-control agencies will almost no
accountability to anyone.

That is a bald faced lie. They struggled the entire time to be
accountable to the feds, and were under constant scrutiny by their own
legislatures. How do you stand yourself?

And your idea of reform is to point only at their faults and
inability
to make FEDERAL GUILDELINES work.

No, the idea of the reforms I have posted and those now suggested by
the Pew
Commission is to change federal guidelines and mandates.

Have you ever seen my suggest otherwise?

Have you ever SPOKEN OUT AGAINST THE ANTI CPS KANT IN THESE NGS? EVER?

The consisted of things like "Kill CPS" and you let it go on. And you
encouraged and patted on the head those that indulged in it.

YOU ARE A ****ING LOW LIFE SCUM SUCKING LIAR...GOT THAT?

Most especially,
as many of us have written in this forum for years, changing Title
IV-E
funding to a capped entitlement that can be used by the states in a
manner
they see fit.

Which "Many" is that? List them and site their instances of having
"written" what you claim.

"used by the states in a manner they see fit" eh?

Show me where even YOU have ever said that before. Go ahead. When you
have cited YOU from the archives, show me who else has EVER SAID SUCH
A THING...except possibly myself in other wording.

Come on Douggie. Show us the citations.

We have constantly advocated for taking the foster care, poor
kids strings off this funding.

Appeals to emotion are just another of your gimmicky ploys, Douggie.

The point is you and I agreed long ago that the people on the line had
a better grasp of what was needed and would work, but YOU encouraged
your lying pack of hyenas here in this ng to ignore this.

And no, you, as in the pack of you, have done NO SUCH THING. Some of
you have advocated for the complete abolishment of CPS, or stripping
them of some of their most powerful inhibitors of child abuse...and
the Pew commission spotlighted this very nicely in just a few words.

And they were simply attempting to bring MY TAX DOLLARS BACK TO MY
STATE FOR SERVICES I DEMAND OF THE STATE.

In simply attempting to bring back tax dollars to their state, CPS
agency's
incarcerated thousands of innocent children in foster care.

They did NOT incarcerated. They placed them in out of home care. No
jails involved at all, you liar.

Since those
precious tax dollars were in the form of Title IV-E foster care
funding, the
agencies removed children from innocent parents out of greed.

Bull****. You are a clearly identified liar in other matters, and this
as well. The did so out of ORDERS OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.
BY LAW.

Why should families trust the expertise of CPS

Because they have proven by the numbers posted by you and even the
biggest disemmbler here, The Douggie, to have done a terrific job
under nearly impossible odds.

The Pew Commission has found that the foster care system is
"unquestionably
broken" and that CPS has done far less than a "terrific" job.

Under federally mandated policy guidelines set by LAW, both federal
and the required state "sister laws."

You are obfuscating yet again.

which now has failed in every
state to meet even minimum standards of efficacy and performance.

Set by the feds, while dangling money? Sure, dummy. Sure.

Why have experts started asking the same questions I do and have
for
some time now, that you and your Bud, Douggie the Magnificent have
ignored?

Many of those experts have been asking the same questions for many
years.
Child and family advocates have said for years that the foster care
system
was broken and that the federal funding through Title IV-E should be
used
for purposes other than foster care.

And you certainly haven't seen ME disagree. My bitch is with the
constant hammering at CPS WITHOUT BLAMING THE FEDS FOR THE DEBACLE.

If you steal a man's wallet (taxes), then force him to dance to get it
back, he's likely to dance to your tune.

NOW the feds are going to move the funding to thugs of their own
choosing and it will be worse, not better...you know damn well that
there is going to be NO CAPPED FUNDING the states can use at their
discretion.

There will be a MORE tightly controlled federal dispensation of money
and favors and power. Public education is going through this just as
child protection is. It's the same pattern, and it's cronyism, and the
states HAVE NOT, as you lie, simply paid off local vendors....they
can't FIND ENOUGH OF THEM TO TREAT THE DAMAGE DONE TO CHILDREN BY
THEIR OWN PARENTS NOW, YOU ****ING LIAR.


Doug


And you have a great evening, Sir!

Kane

"Kane" wrote in message
m...
On Thu, 20 May 2004 02:15:40 -0400, "Doug" wrote:

Kane writes:

Would you trust CPS, who while operating under federal guidelines
that
are being questioned now, as I have in the past, as being
inoperable
for adequate delivery of client services, was able to bring down
the
number of abuses and even reduced the number of sexual abuse cases
by
40%?

Hi, Kane!

I don't know what other members of this forum have been saying to
you, but
they sure have you on the run. I thought you were telling Fern weeks
ago
that the reduction in child sexual abuse cases was a statistical
misreporting -- something about them not counting a certain age
group,
etc -- and that child sexual abuse was still going on at the same, or
higher, rates but reported by agencies less. Are you now saying that
incidents of child sexual abuse have gone down 40 percent?

Nope, still saying reports have.

And that YOU assholes can't have it both ways.......claiming a failure
of CPS but claiming a decrease in sex abuse as a defense for crippling
CPS further for lack of work to do.

Sex abuse is one of the smaller catagories but gets all the attention.
Meaningful reforms will be evidenced in other areas.


Either CPS did or didn't have an effect on the percentage drop...now
which is it you liar?

They have done what pilots have been made heros for...the safe
landing
of a badly disabled aircraft.

That the Pew Commission -- made up of the some of the same child
welfare
experts we have been quoting for years -- has proposed reforms that
will
bring CPS down to earth is hardly a heroic act of CPS administrators
in the
left seat.

You have your seats mixed up. Unless you think the experts are the
copilots.

Stop blaming CPS for what was forced on them.

Actually CPS lobbied for current policy. Nothing was forced on them....
except recent court decisions that do not agree.


With all the crippling, that you barnyard hens take as a license
for
YOU to peck at them, CPS has managed to do this, and save children
lives.

Who on earth do you claim has crippled CPS?? Reform measures now in
front
of Congress and state legislatures across the country may change CPS
practice if they are passed, but CPS malfunction during the last
three
decades was the product of out-of-control agencies will almost no
accountability to anyone.

That is a bald faced lie. They struggled the entire time to be
accountable to the feds, and were under constant scrutiny by their own
legislatures. How do you stand yourself?

I repeat.. CPS got what they wanted from the Feds.. it wasn't forced on
them. As far as constant scrutiny.. there was none... all have failed
recent federal reviews. CPS certainly did not fear the feds.. or even the
provision denying states federal funding for failure to conform. CPS has
had free rein.. until public out-cry reached the ears of true professionals,
the courts, and legislators.

bobb


And your idea of reform is to point only at their faults and
inability
to make FEDERAL GUILDELINES work.

No, the idea of the reforms I have posted and those now suggested by
the Pew
Commission is to change federal guidelines and mandates.

Have you ever seen my suggest otherwise?

Have you ever SPOKEN OUT AGAINST THE ANTI CPS KANT IN THESE NGS? EVER?

The consisted of things like "Kill CPS" and you let it go on. And you
encouraged and patted on the head those that indulged in it.

YOU ARE A ****ING LOW LIFE SCUM SUCKING LIAR...GOT THAT?

Most especially,
as many of us have written in this forum for years, changing Title
IV-E
funding to a capped entitlement that can be used by the states in a
manner
they see fit.

Which "Many" is that? List them and site their instances of having
"written" what you claim.

"used by the states in a manner they see fit" eh?

Show me where even YOU have ever said that before. Go ahead. When you
have cited YOU from the archives, show me who else has EVER SAID SUCH
A THING...except possibly myself in other wording.

Come on Douggie. Show us the citations.

We have constantly advocated for taking the foster care, poor
kids strings off this funding.

Appeals to emotion are just another of your gimmicky ploys, Douggie.

The point is you and I agreed long ago that the people on the line had
a better grasp of what was needed and would work, but YOU encouraged
your lying pack of hyenas here in this ng to ignore this.

And no, you, as in the pack of you, have done NO SUCH THING. Some of
you have advocated for the complete abolishment of CPS, or stripping
them of some of their most powerful inhibitors of child abuse...and
the Pew commission spotlighted this very nicely in just a few words.

And they were simply attempting to bring MY TAX DOLLARS BACK TO MY
STATE FOR SERVICES I DEMAND OF THE STATE.

In simply attempting to bring back tax dollars to their state, CPS
agency's
incarcerated thousands of innocent children in foster care.

They did NOT incarcerated. They placed them in out of home care. No
jails involved at all, you liar.

Since those
precious tax dollars were in the form of Title IV-E foster care
funding, the
agencies removed children from innocent parents out of greed.

Bull****. You are a clearly identified liar in other matters, and this
as well. The did so out of ORDERS OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.
BY LAW.

Why should families trust the expertise of CPS

Because they have proven by the numbers posted by you and even the
biggest disemmbler here, The Douggie, to have done a terrific job
under nearly impossible odds.

The Pew Commission has found that the foster care system is
"unquestionably
broken" and that CPS has done far less than a "terrific" job.

Under federally mandated policy guidelines set by LAW, both federal
and the required state "sister laws."

You are obfuscating yet again.

which now has failed in every
state to meet even minimum standards of efficacy and performance.

Set by the feds, while dangling money? Sure, dummy. Sure.

Why have experts started asking the same questions I do and have
for
some time now, that you and your Bud, Douggie the Magnificent have
ignored?

Many of those experts have been asking the same questions for many
years.
Child and family advocates have said for years that the foster care
system
was broken and that the federal funding through Title IV-E should be
used
for purposes other than foster care.

And you certainly haven't seen ME disagree. My bitch is with the
constant hammering at CPS WITHOUT BLAMING THE FEDS FOR THE DEBACLE.

If you steal a man's wallet (taxes), then force him to dance to get it
back, he's likely to dance to your tune.

NOW the feds are going to move the funding to thugs of their own
choosing and it will be worse, not better...you know damn well that
there is going to be NO CAPPED FUNDING the states can use at their
discretion.

There will be a MORE tightly controlled federal dispensation of money
and favors and power. Public education is going through this just as
child protection is. It's the same pattern, and it's cronyism, and the
states HAVE NOT, as you lie, simply paid off local vendors....they
can't FIND ENOUGH OF THEM TO TREAT THE DAMAGE DONE TO CHILDREN BY
THEIR OWN PARENTS NOW, YOU ****ING LIAR.


Doug


And you have a great evening, Sir!

Kane

On Thu, 20 May 2004 23:31:02 -0500, "bobb"
wrote:


"Kane" wrote in message
om...
On Thu, 20 May 2004 02:15:40 -0400, "Doug"
wrote:

Kane writes:

Would you trust CPS, who while operating under federal
guidelines
that
are being questioned now, as I have in the past, as being
inoperable
for adequate delivery of client services, was able to bring down
the
number of abuses and even reduced the number of sexual abuse
cases
by
40%?

Hi, Kane!

I don't know what other members of this forum have been saying to
you, but
they sure have you on the run. I thought you were telling Fern
weeks
ago
that the reduction in child sexual abuse cases was a statistical
misreporting -- something about them not counting a certain age
group,
etc -- and that child sexual abuse was still going on at the same,
or
higher, rates but reported by agencies less. Are you now saying
that
incidents of child sexual abuse have gone down 40 percent?

Nope, still saying reports have.

And that YOU assholes can't have it both ways.......claiming a
failure
of CPS but claiming a decrease in sex abuse as a defense for
crippling
CPS further for lack of work to do.

Sex abuse is one of the smaller catagories but gets all the
attention.

Crock, as usual. All abuse and neglect gets "attention." YOU give sex
abuse too much attention, bobbarino.

Meaningful reforms will be evidenced in other areas.

But not in sex abuse? Like it's gone? A reduction isn't an
eradication.


Either CPS did or didn't have an effect on the percentage
drop...now
which is it you liar?

They have done what pilots have been made heros for...the safe
landing
of a badly disabled aircraft.

That the Pew Commission -- made up of the some of the same child
welfare
experts we have been quoting for years -- has proposed reforms
that
will
bring CPS down to earth is hardly a heroic act of CPS
administrators
in the
left seat.

You have your seats mixed up. Unless you think the experts are the
copilots.

Stop blaming CPS for what was forced on them.

Actually CPS lobbied for current policy.

Crock. They simply asked to be funded for the mandates coming down
from the feds, in response to the failures of CAPTA. ASFA was what
they got, and you forget I was there.

What was asked for, and I remember it well, and agreed with the
workers and administrators input......IS EXACTLY WHAT IS BEING
PROPOSED NOW..............MORE upfront services to families to bring
out reunification.

The assholes, many who spoke about human beings LIKE YOU DO YOU
ASSHOLE, insisted that what would make for unification was the club of
shortening the timelines and making good on the threats to remove
their children.

It was neanderthal then and was fought by a great many people in the
lower ranks. The admin simply patted them on the head, and outspoken
citizens such as myself, and insured us that service delivery of up
front support for families would increase.....they even gave special
names to little demonstration programs....AND FAILED TO FUND THEM
ADUQUATELY.....

Nothing was forced on them....
except recent court decisions that do not agree.

Crock o'shiit as usual from you. YOU don't remember the facts of the
matter at all. There were two factions, and I was asked to shut up by
the other side, or my state might not get much of anything.

With all the crippling, that you barnyard hens take as a license
for
YOU to peck at them, CPS has managed to do this, and save
children
lives.

Who on earth do you claim has crippled CPS?? Reform measures now
in
front
of Congress and state legislatures across the country may change
CPS
practice if they are passed, but CPS malfunction during the last
three
decades was the product of out-of-control agencies will almost no
accountability to anyone.

That is a bald faced lie. They struggled the entire time to be
accountable to the feds, and were under constant scrutiny by their
own
legislatures. How do you stand yourself?

I repeat.. CPS got what they wanted from the Feds.. it wasn't forced
on
them.

You are just one more of the stupid thugs that claim that we were not
there or if there are lying the asses off about what happened.

As far as constant scrutiny.. there was none... all have failed
recent federal reviews.

Failed on seven points, often by a hairsbredth, ignoring all the other
demanding requirements of client service, and surveyed by stacking the
deck on the means of choosing cases to audit.

I said before, and I'll say it again. The fix was in from the
beginning. The states were meant to fail.

CPS certainly did not fear the feds..

You stupid asshole. I went to mixed pubic agency, private agency (like
Casey Foundation, Children's Defense Fund, etc.) and citizens meetings
with up to 500 people at them were the MAJOR TOPIC WAS FEAR OF THE
FEDS AND OUTCOMES EXACTLY LIKE THIS.

We were polite in the meeting halls, but you should have seen us in
the parking lot and on the streets. We were screaming bloody murder at
the feds coming out of the meetings after us, all smug having conned
everyone...well, almost everyone.

or even the
provision denying states federal funding for failure to conform.

Look, Dummy. I you take a look at the data for child abuse over the
teim of ASFA, you will see a steady, but slow reduction, with a few
ups and downs, but over all, DOWNS, and in some areas dramatic.

To do that with the overloads...........that went against
predictions.....no one could foresee the immense impact of the shift
to meth, and the hugh increase in heroin addiction....and the demands
of the federal mandate that showed early on they were nearly
impossible to meet.....IS AN IMMENSE VICTORY FOR CPS...but of course
will be ignored.

Ever ski competitively?

It's like going for the Giant Slalom, making absolutely record winning
time, and lossing because of a few points taken off for minor
penalties.

CPS has
had free rein..

R R R R R .........what a Douggie suckin' asshole you are.

That's the propaganda claim. I've seen legislative hearings for years
with CPS at the table having to explain their actions. You dipwad. You
think you are in exclusive high toned company with Douggie and
crew.....

They and he are a pack of lying twits. Disgusting to anyone that has
been close to this as I have since 1976.

until public out-cry reached the ears of true professionals,
the courts, and legislators.

Crock O'**** as usual.

I'm so sick of you dumbass and vicious lying twits.

How's 14 years ago suit you, asshole:

http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:W...=en&i e=UTF-8

The one refers to dates back into the '80's.

http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:c...=en&i e=UTF-8

What I can't supply you is material from news media "morgues" as their
archives back to those times require a paid subscription in many
instance, but I well recall news articles as far back as 1980, when I
did a practicum with CPS. I dreaded it and only did it because my
faculty advisor insisted (she was an old retired private child welfare
agency worker) that I make it my first.

In other words my head was full of the nonsense of the public outcries
about abuses of CPS, WHICH WHEN I WAS A STUDENT INTERN I DID NOT
FIND....and I ran an anthropological field study on the largest agency
office in my state at the time (which of course they were not privy
too...as it kills a flied study if you tell the subjects you are
observing them).

I managed to maintain contact for 9 months in support of my minor.

What I found was large group of hard working, road weary, and often
shell shocked folks dealing with unbelievable barriers and
extraordinary conditions...we are talking horrors here....and
caseloads that by 1990 were in the 80's and more per worker.

YOU ****ERS ARE LIARS OR IGNORANT BABBLING CRETINS.

I have to ask myself why you chose to comment on so few of the points
I bought up.

All that comes to mind is that you are either too stupid to respond to
the important ones, or you are cherry picking under the guidance of
the asswipe that posts here as Doug.

bobb

Kane




And your idea of reform is to point only at their faults and
inability
to make FEDERAL GUILDELINES work.

No, the idea of the reforms I have posted and those now suggested
by
the Pew
Commission is to change federal guidelines and mandates.

Have you ever seen my suggest otherwise?

Have you ever SPOKEN OUT AGAINST THE ANTI CPS KANT IN THESE NGS?
EVER?

The consisted of things like "Kill CPS" and you let it go on. And
you
encouraged and patted on the head those that indulged in it.

YOU ARE A ****ING LOW LIFE SCUM SUCKING LIAR...GOT THAT?

Most especially,
as many of us have written in this forum for years, changing Title
IV-E
funding to a capped entitlement that can be used by the states in
a
manner
they see fit.

Which "Many" is that? List them and site their instances of having
"written" what you claim.

"used by the states in a manner they see fit" eh?

Show me where even YOU have ever said that before. Go ahead. When
you
have cited YOU from the archives, show me who else has EVER SAID
SUCH
A THING...except possibly myself in other wording.

Come on Douggie. Show us the citations.

We have constantly advocated for taking the foster care, poor
kids strings off this funding.

Appeals to emotion are just another of your gimmicky ploys,
Douggie.

The point is you and I agreed long ago that the people on the line
had
a better grasp of what was needed and would work, but YOU
encouraged
your lying pack of hyenas here in this ng to ignore this.

And no, you, as in the pack of you, have done NO SUCH THING. Some
of
you have advocated for the complete abolishment of CPS, or
stripping
them of some of their most powerful inhibitors of child abuse...and
the Pew commission spotlighted this very nicely in just a few
words.

And they were simply attempting to bring MY TAX DOLLARS BACK TO
MY
STATE FOR SERVICES I DEMAND OF THE STATE.

In simply attempting to bring back tax dollars to their state, CPS
agency's
incarcerated thousands of innocent children in foster care.

They did NOT incarcerated. They placed them in out of home care. No
jails involved at all, you liar.

Since those
precious tax dollars were in the form of Title IV-E foster care
funding, the
agencies removed children from innocent parents out of greed.

Bull****. You are a clearly identified liar in other matters, and
this
as well. The did so out of ORDERS OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.
BY LAW.

Why should families trust the expertise of CPS

Because they have proven by the numbers posted by you and even
the
biggest disemmbler here, The Douggie, to have done a terrific
job
under nearly impossible odds.

The Pew Commission has found that the foster care system is
"unquestionably
broken" and that CPS has done far less than a "terrific" job.

Under federally mandated policy guidelines set by LAW, both federal
and the required state "sister laws."

You are obfuscating yet again.

which now has failed in every
state to meet even minimum standards of efficacy and
performance.

Set by the feds, while dangling money? Sure, dummy. Sure.

Why have experts started asking the same questions I do and have
for
some time now, that you and your Bud, Douggie the Magnificent
have
ignored?

Many of those experts have been asking the same questions for many
years.
Child and family advocates have said for years that the foster
care
system
was broken and that the federal funding through Title IV-E should
be
used
for purposes other than foster care.

And you certainly haven't seen ME disagree. My bitch is with the
constant hammering at CPS WITHOUT BLAMING THE FEDS FOR THE DEBACLE.

If you steal a man's wallet (taxes), then force him to dance to get
it
back, he's likely to dance to your tune.

NOW the feds are going to move the funding to thugs of their own
choosing and it will be worse, not better...you know damn well that
there is going to be NO CAPPED FUNDING the states can use at their
discretion.

There will be a MORE tightly controlled federal dispensation of
money
and favors and power. Public education is going through this just
as
child protection is. It's the same pattern, and it's cronyism, and
the
states HAVE NOT, as you lie, simply paid off local vendors....they
can't FIND ENOUGH OF THEM TO TREAT THE DAMAGE DONE TO CHILDREN BY
THEIR OWN PARENTS NOW, YOU ****ING LIAR.


Doug


And you have a great evening, Sir!

Kane

Kane writes:

And that YOU assholes can't have it both ways.......claiming a failure
of CPS but claiming a decrease in sex abuse as a defense for crippling
CPS further for lack of work to do.

Hi, Kane!

Who wrote all of that? Certainly not me or anyone else on this forum other
than you.

Either CPS did or didn't have an effect on the percentage drop...now
which is it you liar?

As research posted to this newsgroup has reported, there are many possible
reasons for the decrease. Among them, a sizable blacklash from the 20 year
history of false allegations in this area. Citizens and mandated reporters
are discovering that the phamplets handed out by the agencies regarding
"indicators" of sexual abuse are wrong.

You have your seats mixed up. Unless you think the experts are the
copilots.

I have the seats right. The pilot sits in the left seat.

Stop blaming CPS for what was forced on them.

CPS malpractice was carried out at the agencies' direction and not anyone
elses. No one else is to blame.

With all the crippling, that you barnyard hens take as a license
for
YOU to peck at them, CPS has managed to do this, and save children
lives.

Who on earth do you claim has crippled CPS?? Reform measures now in
front
of Congress and state legislatures across the country may change CPS
practice if they are passed, but CPS malfunction during the last
three
decades was the product of out-of-control agencies will almost no
accountability to anyone.

That is a bald faced lie. They struggled the entire time to be
accountable to the feds, and were under constant scrutiny by their own
legislatures. How do you stand yourself?

CPS agencies were not under the scrutiny of state legislatures nor
accountable to the feds. The recent audits were a federal attempt to BEGIN
to hold the agencies accountable.

And your idea of reform is to point only at their faults and
inability
to make FEDERAL GUILDELINES work.

No, the idea of the reforms I have posted and those now suggested by
the Pew
Commission is to change federal guidelines and mandates.

Have you ever seen my suggest otherwise?

Have you ever SPOKEN OUT AGAINST THE ANTI CPS KANT IN THESE NGS? EVER?

The consisted of things like "Kill CPS" and you let it go on. And you
encouraged and patted on the head those that indulged in it.

YOU ARE A ****ING LOW LIFE SCUM SUCKING LIAR...GOT THAT?

LOL! No beef? If you have some substantial information that addresses the
issue we are discussing, I would be glad to see it. The silly name calling
suggests you lack that information.

Most especially,
as many of us have written in this forum for years, changing Title
IV-E
funding to a capped entitlement that can be used by the states in a
manner
they see fit.

Which "Many" is that? List them and site their instances of having
"written" what you claim.

I have. Many times. The others may or may not choose to respond regarding
their participation.

"used by the states in a manner they see fit" eh?

Show me where even YOU have ever said that before. Go ahead. When you
have cited YOU from the archives, show me who else has EVER SAID SUCH
A THING...except possibly myself in other wording.


Many times. I am sure the premise was made using a wide array of wording
and phrasing at different times.

Come on Douggie. Show us the citations.

We have constantly advocated for taking the foster care, poor
kids strings off this funding.

Appeals to emotion are just another of your gimmicky ploys, Douggie.

The point is you and I agreed long ago that the people on the line had
a better grasp of what was needed and would work, but YOU encouraged
your lying pack of hyenas here in this ng to ignore this.

Linepeople following current policy and enmeshed in systemic dysfunction are
making grave errors that injure the very children they are mandated to
protect.

And no, you, as in the pack of you, have done NO SUCH THING. Some of
you have advocated for the complete abolishment of CPS, or stripping
them of some of their most powerful inhibitors of child abuse...and
the Pew commission spotlighted this very nicely in just a few words.

I have not advocated for the complete abolishment of CPS. What sort of
"powerful inhibitors" are you talking about? What specific actions do you
put in that category? Without knowing what you are addressing, I have no
way of knowing if I advocated for taking them away or not.

And they were simply attempting to bring MY TAX DOLLARS BACK TO MY
STATE FOR SERVICES I DEMAND OF THE STATE.

In simply attempting to bring back tax dollars to their state, CPS
agency's
incarcerated thousands of innocent children in foster care.

They did NOT incarcerated. They placed them in out of home care. No
jails involved at all, you liar.

Children with liberty interests in living peacefully with their families are
being forcibly removed from their homes under the color of law and forcibly
confined in state custody. More than 74% of them are confined with
strangers in various types of structures.

Since those
precious tax dollars were in the form of Title IV-E foster care
funding, the
agencies removed children from innocent parents out of greed.

Bull****. You are a clearly identified liar in other matters, and this
as well. The did so out of ORDERS OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.
BY LAW.

You are absolutely and categorically incorrect. These children were removed
by state child protective agencies on their own initiative with the
motivation to collect federal funding. The federal government did NOT order
these agencies to do it. The feds set the criteria for their money. Since
that criteria provides an incentive to incarcerate poor children, they are
accountable. But that state agencies chose to remove children to get access
to that money is appalling.

Why should families trust the expertise of CPS

Because they have proven by the numbers posted by you and even the
biggest disemmbler here, The Douggie, to have done a terrific job
under nearly impossible odds.

The Pew Commission has found that the foster care system is
"unquestionably
broken" and that CPS has done far less than a "terrific" job.

Under federally mandated policy guidelines set by LAW, both federal
and the required state "sister laws."

The state child protection agencies bear responsibility for their
malpractice. The Nazi defense, "I was ordered to do it" won't work for
personnel of these agencies. The workers within these agencies are
accountable for their own actions.

You are obfuscating yet again.

which now has failed in every
state to meet even minimum standards of efficacy and performance.

Set by the feds, while dangling money? Sure, dummy. Sure.

Why have experts started asking the same questions I do and have
for
some time now, that you and your Bud, Douggie the Magnificent have
ignored?

Many of those experts have been asking the same questions for many
years.
Child and family advocates have said for years that the foster care
system
was broken and that the federal funding through Title IV-E should be
used
for purposes other than foster care.

And you certainly haven't seen ME disagree. My bitch is with the
constant hammering at CPS WITHOUT BLAMING THE FEDS FOR THE DEBACLE.

If you steal a man's wallet (taxes), then force him to dance to get it
back, he's likely to dance to your tune.

If he dances to the tune in violation of his ethics and moral convictions,
just to get at the money, he alone must face the music. He is responsible.
It is simply inhumane to remove children from their parents, inflicting
tremendous emotional damage, for a buck. The feds are responsible to
providing the temptation, but the state workers are solely responsible for
yeilding to the temptation by irreparably injuring the very children they
were mandated to protect. For the damage they have done to children, the
agencies are fully responsible.


NOW the feds are going to move the funding to thugs of their own
choosing and it will be worse, not better...you know damn well that
there is going to be NO CAPPED FUNDING the states can use at their
discretion.

Thugs are thugs, whoever pays them. In this thread, we have been talking
about holding the current thugs accountable for the damage they have already
done to children. You argue that we should worry about different thugs paid
by the feds without considering the damage already done by the state thugs.

There will be a MORE tightly controlled federal dispensation of money
and favors and power. Public education is going through this just as
child protection is. It's the same pattern, and it's cronyism, and the
states HAVE NOT, as you lie, simply paid off local vendors....they
can't FIND ENOUGH OF THEM TO TREAT THE DAMAGE DONE TO CHILDREN BY
THEIR OWN PARENTS NOW, YOU ****ING LIAR.

The state child protection agencies currently pay thousands of local
vendors -- therapists, consultants, advisors, GAL's, group home operators,
caseworkers, parenting teachers, counselors, lawyers, assorted species of
jacklegs, partridges and the pear trees in which they roost.

Have a wonderful day, sir! You are an adult, so you can be relatively
confident that you can spend it at home with those you love.

Doug

"Doug" wrote in message ...
Kane writes:

And that YOU assholes can't have it both ways.......claiming a failure
of CPS but claiming a decrease in sex abuse as a defense for crippling
CPS further for lack of work to do.

Hi, Kane!

Who wrote all of that? Certainly not me or anyone else on this forum other
than you.

Your favorite patronized Plant, Douggie. Try reading those whose asses
you pat.

Either CPS did or didn't have an effect on the percentage drop...now
which is it you liar?

As research posted to this newsgroup has reported, there are many possible
reasons for the decrease. Among them, a sizable blacklash from the 20 year
history of false allegations in this area. Citizens and mandated reporters
are discovering that the phamplets handed out by the agencies regarding
"indicators" of sexual abuse are wrong.

Well, I've read the pamphlets and discussed them with psychatrists and
psychologists that treat both offenders and victims. YOU are wrong,
nummy.

What you focus on, in your lying way, and take advantage of the
ignorant with is ignoring that line about "patters of behavior," in
the many single behaviors don't alone constitute proof of abuse, but
when they mount up......

You make me sick you ****.

You have your seats mixed up. Unless you think the experts are the
copilots.

I have the seats right. The pilot sits in the left seat.

I know where the pilot sits, asshole. AND THE STATE IS NOT THE PILOT,
not when they are being directed by the feds, and following federal
law to the point of having to pass sister laws in support of the
federal laws.

Stop being a wiseass. You knew exactly what I meant.

Stop blaming CPS for what was forced on them.

CPS malpractice was carried out at the agencies' direction and not anyone
elses. No one else is to blame.

CPS managed to still maintain a drop or holding the line in child
abuse and neglect and they were NOT acting soley under their own
dirctions, you ****ing liar.

How can anyone miss that they have for years been under threats by the
feds all over the US? Some have even been taken over by the courts and
I'M NOT HEARING OF GREAT FEATS OF IMPROVEMENT.

The Feds set up a carrot and concealed the stick, then waved it
around, now they are applying it....and the fix was in from the start
for CPS to fail.

Are you going to blame them for not being psysic?

the 90' marked one of he bleakest periods in the drug scene, where
everyone and their brother was setting up meth labs in their kitchen
or basement. Drug use increased hugely in those years. And children's
parents were drug users and makers.

With all the crippling, that you barnyard hens take as a license
for
YOU to peck at them, CPS has managed to do this, and save children
lives.

Who on earth do you claim has crippled CPS?? Reform measures now in
front
of Congress and state legislatures across the country may change CPS
practice if they are passed, but CPS malfunction during the last
three
decades was the product of out-of-control agencies will almost no
accountability to anyone.

That is a bald faced lie. They struggled the entire time to be
accountable to the feds, and were under constant scrutiny by their own
legislatures. How do you stand yourself?

CPS agencies were not under the scrutiny of state legislatures nor
accountable to the feds.

R R R R ....I just posted to the other patronized twit of yours proof
that that is not true. Hell, I went to state legislative hearings when
CPS was involved
clear back to 1980. By the nineties it was damn near a monthy affair
while they were in session.

The recent audits were a federal attempt to BEGIN
to hold the agencies accountable.

You have these assholes here well trained to ignore your lies, but I'm
not among them. You are one sick ****, Doug....a social worker that
lies about child welfare as a regular practice.

If they haven't been under scrutiny for many years please explain
these:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&l...lfare&as_qdr=y

This goes back to 1990....l4 ****in' years ago, asshole:

"As required in the Adoption and Safe Families Act, the Department has
developed, in consultation with the field, an initial list of results
measures that can be used to gauge State performance in ensuring child
safety and permanence. The list has been published for comment in the
Federal Register, and we are now reviewing input received from almost
two-thirds of the states, at least 12 organizations, a number of
researchers, several members of Congress, and other interested
individuals.

The Department has conducted 24 pilot tests of an outcomes-based
monitoring system and has published proposed regulations that draw
substantially on the lessons from those pilots. We currently are
reviewing public comments on the regulations and intend to publish a
final rule before the end of this year.
As a result of federal financial assistance, technical support, and
clear accountability that includes phased-in penalties, states are now
collecting and able to report much more timely and accurate data on
foster care and adoptions. Reporting on child abuse and neglect also
has improved considerably, as a result of both financial and technical
assistance. "

What do you think "consultation with the field" means? They had coffee
together once in 14 years?

I've gone to meetings with both state and feds CALLING CPS ON THE
CARPET TO EXPLAIN VARIOUS POLICY AND PRACTICE ISSUES SINCE 1990. YOU
are a liar.

Next one 8 years ago...look at the title:

"Testimony on Safety and Well-Being of Abused & Neglected Children by
Olivia A. Golden
Acting Assistant Secretary for Children and Families
U.S. Department of Health and Human Services

Before the Senate Committee on Labor and Human Resources
November 20, 1996"

What do you think they are talking about and how did they get the
information, by NOT OVERSEEING CPS?

http://www.hhs.gov/asl/testify/t961120a.html go ahead, take a look,
liar.

Let folks read a few things like the following and you and they will
see why CPS is "failing," and in many instances only by a hair's
breadth on a few of the 7 criteria...ignoring of course all the OTHER
measures, like the their holding the line as abuse and they
horrendousness of the KINDS of abuse when up...even bringing some of
it down over the years.

http://www.rand.org/publications/CF/CF123/burnam/

And here's a 1998 complaint petition in Texas....so no one is
overseeing CPS eh? This one was filed with ...guess who.....the state
****ing legislature of Texas and the governor....one of those you
claim provided no oversight for accountability.

http://www.co.travis.tx.us/petition/summary.asp

A Petition in Behalf of the
Forsaken Children of Texas to the
Governor and the 76th Legislature
Executive Summary
October 14, 1998
Judge F. Scott McCown

This petition is about investigations by the Texas Child Protective
Service of allegations of child abuse and neglect. This petition will
show that due to a lack of resources:

"CPS classifies too few calls about children as reports of abuse or
neglect.
Of those calls classified as reports, CPS assigns too few for
investigation and completes the assigned investigations too slowly.
Of those investigations completed, CPS confirms too few cases.
Of those cases confirmed, CPS removes too few victims.
This executive summary is written to tempt you to read the petition"

I can tell you, Doug, you are wearing me down. I'm getting so tired of
fielding your lies and pointing them out. I'm tired of you avoiding
the larger issues I bring up and peeling off some inconsequential
misuse of a term or a claim that misses the center of the target by an
inch, BUT IS STILL ON TARGET...just like this issue, that I could
puke.

You make me sick you lying ****.
And your idea of reform is to point only at their faults and
inability
to make FEDERAL GUILDELINES work.

No, the idea of the reforms I have posted and those now suggested by
the Pew
Commission is to change federal guidelines and mandates.

Have you ever seen my suggest otherwise?

Have you ever SPOKEN OUT AGAINST THE ANTI CPS KANT IN THESE NGS? EVER?

The consisted of things like "Kill CPS" and you let it go on. And you
encouraged and patted on the head those that indulged in it.

YOU ARE A ****ING LOW LIFE SCUM SUCKING LIAR...GOT THAT?

LOL! No beef?

You want me to cite all the lying **** filled destroy CPS posts on
this very newsgroup and then ALL OF YOURS showing you pat these ****s
on the head and congratulate them for posting biased media reports,
and ignoring all the good CPS does do?

Go **** yourself.

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=e...ctive-services

Here, read them all yourself, then post a single post of yours
decrying these viscious attacks and lies. Show me where you have
challenged them. I remember one or two little "oh oh bobb, your
figures are off by a bit" congratulatory bits of pap from you and
that's it.


If you have some substantial information that addresses the
issue we are discussing, I would be glad to see it. The silly name calling
suggests you lack that information.

NO, the name calling isn't silly in the least. It identifies what you
are clearly. And the disgust I hold for a professional in the field
that would lie and mislead to the injury of children and the risk of
families. **** you, asshole.

As for the "substantial information" I've used many of the same
sources YOU have during our exchanges, as well as others (see this and
other recent posts), and fought your twisted lying interpretations
again and again.

YOur claim that I'm not supply ing substantial information is AN
EXPOSURE OF YOUR LIES RIGHT IN THIS POST, AND PRIOR ONES I've replied
to you in.

As I said, you are a ****ing liar. I'm am sick to death of knowing
someone like you has an MSW and is a member.

Most especially,
as many of us have written in this forum for years, changing Title
IV-E
funding to a capped entitlement that can be used by the states in a
manner
they see fit.

Which "Many" is that? List them and site their instances of having
"written" what you claim.

I have. Many times.

Cite them. Should be easy to find, or don't you google? Want me to
look for them for you? ... or could it be that I have?

The others may or may not choose to respond regarding
their participation.

Baaaawwwwk, baaaaaawk baaaaawk, chicken****.

You made a claim. Now you won't back it up.

"many times" eh? Why can't I find them?

"used by the states in a manner they see fit" eh?

Show me where even YOU have ever said that before. Go ahead. When you
have cited YOU from the archives, show me who else has EVER SAID SUCH
A THING...except possibly myself in other wording.


Many times. I am sure the premise was made using a wide array of wording
and phrasing at different times.

R R R R............Do you know the poster I refer to as Droany? That's
a favorite style of dodge of his. It's called "weaseling."

I'm sure you are sure, but I'm sure you haven't answered my question.
Where are they, in any form? Show me.

Come on Douggie. Show us the citations.

R R R R

We have constantly advocated for taking the foster care, poor
kids strings off this funding.

Appeals to emotion are just another of your gimmicky ploys, Douggie.

The point is you and I agreed long ago that the people on the line had
a better grasp of what was needed and would work, but YOU encouraged
your lying pack of hyenas here in this ng to ignore this.

Linepeople following current policy and enmeshed in systemic dysfunction are
making grave errors that injure the very children they are mandated to
protect.

Propaganda. There is no world in which mistakes are not made, and
people injured. This is the infamous strawman. How could anyone
disagree with you.

Line people following ANY policy are ENMESHED in systematic
dysfunction because NO system is perfect or even much better than
stumbling along. Especially CPS with the crippling they have always
worked under.

Child abuse and neglect are ugly nasty horrible things to
witness...and the public wants it fixed without having to witness it.
They want it done fast and they want it done cheap and they don't want
to to see it or pay for it.

That attitude provides, created really, a perfect whipping boy for
politically ambitious twits (that's why I rag you so much....you
babble and rant and bull**** just like others I've seen and challenged
over the years...as a citizen).

Yah know how people are annoyed by and stereotype garbage men...?
Well, this is worse, but the same thing.

A dirty job no one wants to do but they want to criticize those that
do it and underpay them to boot.

And no, you, as in the pack of you, have done NO SUCH THING. Some of
you have advocated for the complete abolishment of CPS, or stripping
them of some of their most powerful inhibitors of child abuse...and
the Pew commission spotlighted this very nicely in just a few words.

I have not advocated for the complete abolishment of CPS.

You have offered, as an argument, the opinions of those who say,
dismantal and begin over with a new model?

You didn't tell me that you wanted a police function to take over all
investigation and enforcement work?

Look familiar?

"I have supported separate reform packages authored by social workers
Lela
Costin, Leroy Pelton, Duncan Lindsey, Phillip Schwartz, Howard Karger,
Richard Gelles, Susan Orr, and others. Each of these authors have
written
reform packages that call for police to assume the role of
investigating
child abuse and neglect. Dr. Pelton, in an exhaustive work in 1989;
Dr.
Lindsey in an equally lengthy book in 1993; Dr. Costin, et al in 1996,
Susan
Orr in 1998, Richard Gelles in 2000 and Dr. Swartz in 2001."

If all that is left, smartass, is CPS doing social work with volunary
clients, they will be doing nothing as all the parents will be in
jail. Do you really think the levels of abuse are going to diminish?

Children will NOT go back to their parents. You are encouraging what
will become a damn bloodbath. I don't know where you got those stats
you offerred, or opinions, that CPS work to reunite families wasn't
working, but you are full of ****. Even under that heavy load imposed
by ASFA with the states HAVING to devote money to enforcement in an
attempt to comply with federal guildelinse, the little pilot and
demonstration projects for family unity were working.

I think THAT was one of your more annoying lies.

Dredge that up again for us. I'm going to make some calls to the
researchers that came up with that crock.

Addionally asshole, and I call that while I think of about this, more
and more children will suffer more and more before their parents reach
the level the police CAN intervene, and it will be the hospital or
morgue for the children, jail for their parents........who did NOT ask
for help because bad parents and fool druggies don't ASK FOR
HELP......

What sort of
"powerful inhibitors" are you talking about? What specific actions do you
put in that category? Without knowing what you are addressing, I have no
way of knowing if I advocated for taking them away or not.

The threat of loss of their children would qualify. Don't you think?

And that threat goes away, under what you advocate and I just posted,
UNTIL THE CHILD IS DEAD OR SO INJURED THEY MIGHT AS WELL BE.

We see enough of that already, you evil evil little man.

And they were simply attempting to bring MY TAX DOLLARS BACK TO MY
STATE FOR SERVICES I DEMAND OF THE STATE.

In simply attempting to bring back tax dollars to their state, CPS
agency's
incarcerated thousands of innocent children in foster care.

They did NOT incarcerated. They placed them in out of home care. No
jails involved at all, you liar.

Children with liberty interests in living peacefully with their families are
being forcibly removed from their homes under the color of law and forcibly
confined in state custody.

Under color of law MEANS BY LEGAL MEANS...you little evil twit.

"forcibly confined" R R R R .... They are FORCIBLY CONFINED then with
their parents. Anyone that is their caregiver is FORCIBLY confining
them, even the day care centers and public schools. What an evil
******* you are.

More than 74% of them are confined with
strangers in various types of structures.

Gee, what happend to "incarcerated?"

IN some states as many as 50% are with relatives, some of whom
themselves kill or injure them. Stop the ****ing lies by misleading
and misdirection.

Homes, treatment centers for their parent induced psychological
illnesses, and for some older ones, sadly, youth incarceration
centers...the ONLY ONE YOU ARE CORRECT ABOUT....but they are
ajudicated as delinquent youth.

Basically you are the same kind of mindless twit that bobb is. You
just are better educated hence better able to conceal your sickness
and bigotry.

Since those
precious tax dollars were in the form of Title IV-E foster care
funding, the
agencies removed children from innocent parents out of greed.

Bull****. You are a clearly identified liar in other matters, and this
as well. The did so out of ORDERS OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.
BY LAW.

You are absolutely and categorically incorrect. These children were removed
by state child protective agencies on their own initiative with the
motivation to collect federal funding.

Prove it.

If so why are ANY OF THEM RETURNED TO THEIR PARENTS. What a liar.

The federal government did NOT order
these agencies to do it.

Nope. They ordered them to respond to child abuse complaints. And the
state must do so. It's the law.

The feds set the criteria for their money. Since
that criteria provides an incentive to incarcerate poor children, they are
accountable.

More poor children are in circumstances that amount to neglect and
abuse. Nothing remarkable in that. Nor in that the feds and the states
recognize it. Claims they are targetted just because they are poor is
bull****.

But that state agencies chose to remove children to get access
to that money is appalling.

What's appalling is that you lie about it.

Why should families trust the expertise of CPS

Because they have proven by the numbers posted by you and even the
biggest disemmbler here, The Douggie, to have done a terrific job
under nearly impossible odds.

The Pew Commission has found that the foster care system is
"unquestionably
broken" and that CPS has done far less than a "terrific" job.

Under federally mandated policy guidelines set by LAW, both federal
and the required state "sister laws."

The state child protection agencies bear responsibility for their
malpractice.

No question about it. Now show "malpractice" in relation to law and
standard child welfare practice. You may find such information in law
books and in the texts of well known schools of social work.

The Nazi defense, "I was ordered to do it" won't work for
personnel of these agencies.

And that is not the defense, but that is not a valid claim. Those that
break the law are NOT allowed to use it validly. You have seen reports
in this ng of such going to jail, losing jobs, being demoted and other
penalties.

And the agencies are NOT breaking any laws, and you know it. Not
state, not federal. So who is going to be on this world court to try
CPS personnel for their gestapo like behavior, eh?

You and your cronies are so full of ****.

This hyperbolic ranting is right out of the overheated steamy rhetoric
of the websites and pronouncement of little crazy ass anti CPS anti
Government nutsos I can't believe and educated man would fall for that
****...though I've seen ego empaired crackpost with good educations go
down to it before.

The workers within these agencies are
accountable for their own actions.

As I said, you run this crap constantly. I know they are. I've been a
party to them having to be accountable...and they were. Some fired,
some demoted, some fired and barred for state employment for life. So
don't give me that bull****.

They ARE NOT resonsible for the machinations of the Feds or the State.

If so, and you are telling the truth, then YOU ARE HEADED FOR A FALL.
You work for the state, do you not?

Guilt by association. I should have expected that from you.


You are obfuscating yet again.

which now has failed in every
state to meet even minimum standards of efficacy and performance.

Set by the feds, while dangling money? Sure, dummy. Sure.

Why have experts started asking the same questions I do and have
for
some time now, that you and your Bud, Douggie the Magnificent have
ignored?

Many of those experts have been asking the same questions for many
years.
Child and family advocates have said for years that the foster care
system
was broken and that the federal funding through Title IV-E should be
used
for purposes other than foster care.

And you certainly haven't seen ME disagree. My bitch is with the
constant hammering at CPS WITHOUT BLAMING THE FEDS FOR THE DEBACLE.

If you steal a man's wallet (taxes), then force him to dance to get it
back, he's likely to dance to your tune.

If he dances to the tune in violation of his ethics and moral convictions,
just to get at the money, he alone must face the music.

You, skuzzball, are talking about the public. Who do you think I was
referring to?

He is responsible.

Yes, the public is. So YOU want the public to hang the workers they
paid and directed by the laws passed. What a lowlife you are.

It is simply inhumane to remove children from their parents, inflicting
tremendous emotional damage, for a buck.

That is not why they are removed. That's the big lie tactic, and you
make yourself known as a liar by spouting it. Nearly everyone believes
it...nearly that is, unless they have held CPS under the kind of
careful scrutiny I have for many years.

This may not be the best way to run CPS but it is the way that
evolved. The ONLY way the feds offerred to fund child protection.

Now you want the feds to fix it? R R R R ....and you think they'll do
better this time around. The states should be suing the feds for
misrepresentation and taking back those billions in tax dollars.
That's the only way it can happen ethically. MORE of CAPTA followed by
ASFA followed now by Plan C, is not going to fix it and if you had a
****ing brain in your stupid little pointy head you'd know it.

Did you manage to take even ONE quarter of policital sciense? Get your
text out, dust it off and study.

The feds are responsible to
providing the temptation,

"TEMPTATION?" For **** sakes man, it was A THREAT...IT WAS THE GUN TO
THE HEAD. If you want this money you WILL dance to our tune was what
it was. I sat through hour after hour of conferences where, in
essence, that WAS the bottom line when the states were asking for MORE
support for reunification and upfront family support money.

YOU ****ING LIAR. Or weren't you around for those times?

but the state workers are solely responsible for
yeilding to the temptation by irreparably injuring the very children they
were mandated to protect.

If that was what they were doing in numbers that reflected anything
more than the expected statistical human error in systems I'd agree
with you. But I know it's not so.

The children coming into the system ARE NOT universally or even in the
majority, unharmed by parents. Many that return home are injured for
life by PARENTS, but the state has to return them because of legal and
policy limitations.

For the damage they have done to children, the
agencies are fully responsible.

Yep, you just lie about the numbers. And lots of suckers here eat it
up.


NOW the feds are going to move the funding to thugs of their own
choosing and it will be worse, not better...you know damn well that
there is going to be NO CAPPED FUNDING the states can use at their
discretion.

Thugs are thugs, whoever pays them. In this thread, we have been talking
about holding the current thugs accountable for the damage they have already
done to children. You argue that we should worry about different thugs paid
by the feds without considering the damage already done by the state thugs.

No such argument has been made by me. I'm perfectly willing to have
ANY AND ALL thugs worried about and stopped. The problem is that you
are lying.

It's the old "three times and eight time more likely" crappola. You
are comparing populations with extremely different variables and
making claims that are not supportable.

And everybody wants a ride. The political ambition slavering hyenas
are running rampant....you aren't winning on truth, you are winning on
lies because of the stupidity, ignorance, and cupidity of such as
those.

There will be a MORE tightly controlled federal dispensation of money
and favors and power. Public education is going through this just as
child protection is. It's the same pattern, and it's cronyism, and the
states HAVE NOT, as you lie, simply paid off local vendors....they
can't FIND ENOUGH OF THEM TO TREAT THE DAMAGE DONE TO CHILDREN BY
THEIR OWN PARENTS NOW, YOU ****ING LIAR.

The state child protection agencies currently pay thousands of local
vendors -- therapists, consultants, advisors, GAL's, group home operators,
caseworkers, parenting teachers, counselors, lawyers,

As required by law. By the feds in fact. And when one sees what
children have suffered that come into the system, it's no surprise
these are needed.

assorted species of
jacklegs, partridges and the pear trees in which they roost.

Same old ****, Douggie the Magnificent.

Personally if there are going to be vendors, and there will always be
considering the damage to children from their parental units, I want
them controlled locally.........not remotely by the feds using their
asskissing thugs in suits.

Have a wonderful day, sir! You are an adult, so you can be relatively
confident that you can spend it at home with those you love.

If I were a child and my parents were abusing and neglecting me would
YOU show up at my door in time, to get me out, give me some medical
and psychological therapy, get my parents squared away so I could come
home one day, or would you wait for it to get serious enough the cops
had to be called.....when I was badly injured and disabled for life or
dead?

You are creep.


Doug

Kane

Kane writes:

How can anyone miss that they have for years been under threats by the
feds all over the US? Some have even been taken over by the courts and
I'M NOT HEARING OF GREAT FEATS OF IMPROVEMENT.

Hi, Kane!

Yes, increasingly, federal courts are taking over foster care systems
throughout the country because of the agency's consistent refusal to
consider reforming on their own. The results have been mixed.

The Feds set up a carrot and concealed the stick, then waved it
around, now they are applying it....and the fix was in from the start
for CPS to fail.

What sort of fix? What was the carrot? What is the stick?

the 90' marked one of he bleakest periods in the drug scene, where
everyone and their brother was setting up meth labs in their kitchen
or basement. Drug use increased hugely in those years. And children's
parents were drug users and makers.

Perhaps one of the problems during that period was that state workers may
have actually assumed that "everybody and their brother" was manufactoring
methamphetamine. Such a generalization and contempt prior to investigation
could have made it very tough for the children of everyone and their
brother.

The Department has conducted 24 pilot tests of an outcomes-based
monitoring system and has published proposed regulations that draw
substantially on the lessons from those pilots. We currently are
reviewing public comments on the regulations and intend to publish a
final rule before the end of this year.
As a result of federal financial assistance, technical support, and
clear accountability that includes phased-in penalties, states are now
collecting and able to report much more timely and accurate data on
foster care and adoptions. Reporting on child abuse and neglect also
has improved considerably, as a result of both financial and technical
assistance. "

What do you think "consultation with the field" means? They had coffee
together once in 14 years?

What you cut and pasted is a discussion about how the feds sought out state
input in designing the criteria for the audits that were conducted the past
three years. It took that long from theory to practice. The process, as
your cut and paste explains, was to go to the states for input and then
print proposed quidelines in the Federal Register. States further commented
on the published criteria, and the feds then went back to draft revisions,
which were again published in the Federal Register.

Let folks read a few things like the following and you and they will
see why CPS is "failing," and in many instances only by a hair's
breadth on a few of the 7 criteria...ignoring of course all the OTHER
measures, like the their holding the line as abuse and they
horrendousness of the KINDS of abuse when up...even bringing some of
it down over the years.

Responding to abuse reports and keeping children safe is among the
components in one of the 7 groupings of criteria.

YOU ARE A ****ING LOW LIFE SCUM SUCKING LIAR...GOT THAT?

LOL! No beef?

You want me to cite all the lying **** filled destroy CPS posts on
this very newsgroup and then ALL OF YOURS showing you pat these ****s
on the head and congratulate them for posting biased media reports,
and ignoring all the good CPS does do?

Go **** yourself.

A biophysical impossibility, I am told.


Linepeople following current policy and enmeshed in systemic
dysfunction are
making grave errors that injure the very children they are mandated to
protect.

Propaganda. There is no world in which mistakes are not made, and
people injured. This is the infamous strawman. How could anyone
disagree with you.

Line people following ANY policy are ENMESHED in systematic
dysfunction because NO system is perfect or even much better than
stumbling along. Especially CPS with the crippling they have always
worked under.

A dysfunctional system is in far worse shape than simply being imperfect.

Child abuse and neglect are ugly nasty horrible things to
witness...and the public wants it fixed without having to witness it.
They want it done fast and they want it done cheap and they don't want
to to see it or pay for it.

I disagree. The public is paying billions for it. Citizens have a right to
expect their employees to do their jobs in a way that does not injure
children. At the very least, they should, "at first, do no harm."

Lela
Costin, Leroy Pelton, Duncan Lindsey, Phillip Schwartz, Howard Karger,
Richard Gelles, Susan Orr, and others. Each of these authors have
written
reform packages that call for police to assume the role of
investigating
child abuse and neglect. Dr. Pelton, in an exhaustive work in 1989;
Dr.
Lindsey in an equally lengthy book in 1993; Dr. Costin, et al in 1996,
Susan
Orr in 1998, Richard Gelles in 2000 and Dr. Swartz in 2001."

If all that is left, smartass, is CPS doing social work with volunary
clients, they will be doing nothing as all the parents will be in
jail. Do you really think the levels of abuse are going to diminish?

There are other tasks left to do after police do investigation...like social
work.


What sort of
"powerful inhibitors" are you talking about? What specific actions do
you
put in that category? Without knowing what you are addressing, I have
no
way of knowing if I advocated for taking them away or not.

The threat of loss of their children would qualify. Don't you think?

And that threat goes away, under what you advocate and I just posted,
UNTIL THE CHILD IS DEAD OR SO INJURED THEY MIGHT AS WELL BE.

The trouble is that when the state threatens parents with removal of their
children, it becomes necessary to use the "hammer" and remove children when
parents don't jump through hoops in the right way. This is precisely what
leads to an overcrowded and abusive foster care system. Children should not
be removed from their homes -- or threatened to be removed -- to force
parents to accept a government "service" (sanction).

Children with liberty interests in living peacefully with their families
are
being forcibly removed from their homes under the color of law and
forcibly
confined in state custody.

Under color of law MEANS BY LEGAL MEANS...you little evil twit.

Precisely.

"forcibly confined" R R R R .... They are FORCIBLY CONFINED then with
their parents. Anyone that is their caregiver is FORCIBLY confining
them, even the day care centers and public schools. What an evil
******* you are.

Incorrect. Children generally want to live in their homes with their
parents and their siblings. Have you ever asked them?

More than 74% of them are confined with
strangers in various types of structures.

Gee, what happend to "incarcerated?"

IN some states as many as 50% are with relatives, some of whom
themselves kill or injure them. Stop the ****ing lies by misleading
and misdirection.

The average is 24% nationwide. What states have 50%?

Basically you are the same kind of mindless twit that bobb is. You
just are better educated hence better able to conceal your sickness
and bigotry.

bobb is not a "mindless twit." To the contrary, he is a thoughtful member
of this group who makes it a habit to write posts that encourage us to think
about the issues. He does disagree with you on occassion, which is why you
call him names.

Nonetheless, you have a great day, sir!

Doug

"Doug" wrote in message
...
Kane writes:

And that YOU assholes can't have it both ways.......claiming a failure
of CPS but claiming a decrease in sex abuse as a defense for crippling
CPS further for lack of work to do.

Hi, Kane!

Who wrote all of that? Certainly not me or anyone else on this forum
other
than you.

Either CPS did or didn't have an effect on the percentage drop...now
which is it you liar?

As research posted to this newsgroup has reported, there are many possible
reasons for the decrease. Among them, a sizable blacklash from the 20
year
history of false allegations in this area. Citizens and mandated
reporters
are discovering that the phamplets handed out by the agencies regarding
"indicators" of sexual abuse are wrong.

You have your seats mixed up. Unless you think the experts are the
copilots.

I have the seats right. The pilot sits in the left seat.

With their EB-6 and Far's manual... :-)


Stop blaming CPS for what was forced on them.

Nothing was forced on CPS. They lobbied congress, they lobbied states, and
they contributed mightly to legislators who were hood-winked. Private
agencies were often out front as well. It's unfortunate that so many kids
were exploited for nefarious gain yet so many people wrongly listened to
these 'experts'.


CPS malpractice was carried out at the agencies' direction and not anyone
elses. No one else is to blame.

With all the crippling, that you barnyard hens take as a license
for
YOU to peck at them, CPS has managed to do this, and save children
lives.

Who on earth do you claim has crippled CPS?? Reform measures now in
front
of Congress and state legislatures across the country may change CPS
practice if they are passed, but CPS malfunction during the last
three
decades was the product of out-of-control agencies will almost no
accountability to anyone.

That is a bald faced lie. They struggled the entire time to be
accountable to the feds, and were under constant scrutiny by their own
legislatures. How do you stand yourself?

CPS agencies were not under the scrutiny of state legislatures nor
accountable to the feds. The recent audits were a federal attempt to
BEGIN
to hold the agencies accountable.

And your idea of reform is to point only at their faults and
inability
to make FEDERAL GUILDELINES work.

No, the idea of the reforms I have posted and those now suggested by
the Pew
Commission is to change federal guidelines and mandates.

Have you ever seen my suggest otherwise?

Have you ever SPOKEN OUT AGAINST THE ANTI CPS KANT IN THESE NGS? EVER?

The consisted of things like "Kill CPS" and you let it go on. And you
encouraged and patted on the head those that indulged in it.

YOU ARE A ****ING LOW LIFE SCUM SUCKING LIAR...GOT THAT?

LOL! No beef? If you have some substantial information that addresses
the
issue we are discussing, I would be glad to see it. The silly name
calling
suggests you lack that information.


He does that when backed into a corner...

Most especially,
as many of us have written in this forum for years, changing Title
IV-E
funding to a capped entitlement that can be used by the states in a
manner
they see fit.

... and will ultimately take credit for other's suggestion.


Which "Many" is that? List them and site their instances of having
"written" what you claim.

I have. Many times. The others may or may not choose to respond
regarding
their participation.

"used by the states in a manner they see fit" eh?

Show me where even YOU have ever said that before. Go ahead. When you
have cited YOU from the archives, show me who else has EVER SAID SUCH
A THING...except possibly myself in other wording.

Ooops.. talk about taking credit!


Many times. I am sure the premise was made using a wide array of wording
and phrasing at different times.

I've often said CPS does not avail itself of other state and private
services relating to home-care... particularly housing and services to the
poor. Under the guise of neglect, their only recouse has been to remove the
child and make unreasonable demands on the parent(s) to acheive conformity.
Those, like Doug, with a more technical understanding and view of funding
use a different approach to acheive the same end. You just haven't noticed,
Kane.


Come on Douggie. Show us the citations.

We have constantly advocated for taking the foster care, poor
kids strings off this funding.

Appeals to emotion are just another of your gimmicky ploys, Douggie.

The point is you and I agreed long ago that the people on the line had
a better grasp of what was needed and would work, but YOU encouraged
your lying pack of hyenas here in this ng to ignore this.

Linepeople following current policy and enmeshed in systemic dysfunction
are
making grave errors that injure the very children they are mandated to
protect.

And no, you, as in the pack of you, have done NO SUCH THING. Some of
you have advocated for the complete abolishment of CPS, or stripping
them of some of their most powerful inhibitors of child abuse...and
the Pew commission spotlighted this very nicely in just a few words.

I have not advocated for the complete abolishment of CPS. What sort of
"powerful inhibitors" are you talking about? What specific actions do you
put in that category? Without knowing what you are addressing, I have no
way of knowing if I advocated for taking them away or not.

And they were simply attempting to bring MY TAX DOLLARS BACK TO MY
STATE FOR SERVICES I DEMAND OF THE STATE.

I don't think that is the intention of the Pew report.


In simply attempting to bring back tax dollars to their state, CPS
agency's
incarcerated thousands of innocent children in foster care.

They did NOT incarcerated. They placed them in out of home care. No
jails involved at all, you liar.

Ok, Kane... I'll disagree with, Doug. (absent the profanity) The kids
weren't incarcerated... they were kid-napped.


Children with liberty interests in living peacefully with their families
are
being forcibly removed from their homes under the color of law and
forcibly
confined in state custody. More than 74% of them are confined with
strangers in various types of structures.

Since those
precious tax dollars were in the form of Title IV-E foster care
funding, the
agencies removed children from innocent parents out of greed.

Bull****. You are a clearly identified liar in other matters, and this
as well. The did so out of ORDERS OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.
BY LAW.

You are absolutely and categorically incorrect. These children were
removed
by state child protective agencies on their own initiative with the
motivation to collect federal funding. The federal government did NOT
order
these agencies to do it. The feds set the criteria for their money.
Since
that criteria provides an incentive to incarcerate poor children, they are
accountable. But that state agencies chose to remove children to get
access
to that money is appalling.

.. The Feds said... you take those children away from their parents.. and
we'll give you money. If you can get them adopted.. we'll give you even
more money.


Why should families trust the expertise of CPS

Because they have proven by the numbers posted by you and even the
biggest disemmbler here, The Douggie, to have done a terrific job
under nearly impossible odds.

The Pew Commission has found that the foster care system is
"unquestionably
broken" and that CPS has done far less than a "terrific" job.

Under federally mandated policy guidelines set by LAW, both federal
and the required state "sister laws."

The state child protection agencies bear responsibility for their
malpractice. The Nazi defense, "I was ordered to do it" won't work for
personnel of these agencies. The workers within these agencies are
accountable for their own actions.

You are obfuscating yet again.

which now has failed in every
state to meet even minimum standards of efficacy and performance.

Set by the feds, while dangling money? Sure, dummy. Sure.

An unintended consequence of well intended people, I'm sure. With money out
there for the asking... CPS set the stage and grabbed the brass ring, which
to their delight, was far more lucrative then even they probably expected.

CPS broke the origianl intent of foster care system... tried to correct
their mistakes a number of times... and in frustration lobbbied for, and got
the federal governemnt to legalize morally unfair adoption practices....
with subsidies and monetary reward.



Why have experts started asking the same questions I do and have
for
some time now, that you and your Bud, Douggie the Magnificent have
ignored?

Many of those experts have been asking the same questions for many
years.
Child and family advocates have said for years that the foster care
system
was broken and that the federal funding through Title IV-E should be
used
for purposes other than foster care.

I'm afraid the questions you allude to... were not of the same nature others
asked. I note that you finally admit the foster care system is broken.

Many months I ago, I suggested when change came.. you'd be right there
taking credit for your participation and contributions. You see things quite
clearly in black and white... which are often the extremes. The larger
grey areas often prove the most difficult to visulize, understand and
resolve. To deny the affiliation beween the feds and cps "obfuscates" (your
favorite big word) the true issues.






And you certainly haven't seen ME disagree. My bitch is with the
constant hammering at CPS WITHOUT BLAMING THE FEDS FOR THE DEBACLE.

How is it possible to disassociate CPS from federal mandates and subsidy.
Except for the few wise citizen groups, and occassioally the courts, the
only ones actively called for changes.. and the only ones who got
attention.... was CPS. Those same changes, by the way, is what more and
more people are seeing as wrong and unjust.

It's unfortuate that the few wise people among us were not listened to...
even as the courts were being stripped of their powers.


If you steal a man's wallet (taxes), then force him to dance to get it
back, he's likely to dance to your tune.

If he dances to the tune in violation of his ethics and moral convictions,
just to get at the money, he alone must face the music. He is
responsible.
It is simply inhumane to remove children from their parents, inflicting
tremendous emotional damage, for a buck. The feds are responsible to
providing the temptation, but the state workers are solely responsible for
yeilding to the temptation by irreparably injuring the very children they
were mandated to protect. For the damage they have done to children, the
agencies are fully responsible.


NOW the feds are going to move the funding to thugs of their own
choosing and it will be worse, not better...you know damn well that
there is going to be NO CAPPED FUNDING the states can use at their
discretion.

Thugs are thugs, whoever pays them. In this thread, we have been talking
about holding the current thugs accountable for the damage they have
already
done to children. You argue that we should worry about different thugs
paid
by the feds without considering the damage already done by the state
thugs.

I can't really discount that reapportionment, and capped funds, will have
some affect on CPS ... I'm still skepical about the extent.. as well as
the consequences. Doug is certainly more optimistic than I. Hmmm.... guess
I should resort to a few profanities and insults, huh?

bobb


There will be a MORE tightly controlled federal dispensation of money
and favors and power. Public education is going through this just as
child protection is. It's the same pattern, and it's cronyism, and the
states HAVE NOT, as you lie, simply paid off local vendors....they
can't FIND ENOUGH OF THEM TO TREAT THE DAMAGE DONE TO CHILDREN BY
THEIR OWN PARENTS NOW, YOU ****ING LIAR.

The state child protection agencies currently pay thousands of local
vendors -- therapists, consultants, advisors, GAL's, group home operators,
caseworkers, parenting teachers, counselors, lawyers, assorted species of
jacklegs, partridges and the pear trees in which they roost.

Have a wonderful day, sir! You are an adult, so you can be relatively
confident that you can spend it at home with those you love.

Doug

On Tue, 25 May 2004 09:46:15 -0500, "bobb"
wrote:


Kane wrote to Doug....about ME!

You cultivate his biases and fears like the truly dispicable thug
you
are. He's your dupe, just as The Plant.

Nonetheless, you have a great day, sir!

Nonetheless, enjoy your pretentious posturing.
Kane

It's sad Kane can't see that my biases are my own... and have
nothing to
do with anyone else.

Yeah, none of us is prone to influence from others. I'll have to write
a text book on the lies educators have been selling us for years.

I have few fears these days....

Except blacks, messicans, and anyone whose values are "different" WHEN
IN FACT THEY ARE DEAD ON THE SAME, just coming out of a face that
looks different than you. You are sick, you ****in' racist bigot. Go
get healed or hung, I don't care which.

my kids are all on
their own and doing quite well.

They are white. ...the don't have to do all that much to do "quite
well" on the backs of little brown people that cook their food and
wash their dishes and clean their yards...ets, speaking metaphorically
of course.

You are terrified that blacks and others are coming into power and
pretend they have some different set of values. You are sick.

If I have fears... it is because of people,
like Kane,

I hope to **** you do. We are OUT TO GET YOU, PECKERWOOD. You are an
insult to the white race.

who do not see the dangers within our society today and
particular those of CPS.

What "dangers?" That a black man is not all that far from the
presidency? Not that I'm fond of Powell, or Rice for that matter. That
central Americans are had Chavez and have found their voice in the
Americas?

Shake, honkey fool, shake.

Not that I would mind being a "dupe" to Doug

We already can see you love it. Squeal like a pig.

but Kane also fails to note
each of us have different ideas and thoughts.

I do? YOu mean I think I'M A RACIST FOOL TOO?

Where do you get these words of wisdom? From the shopping cart lady?

Perhaps if Doug and I were
able to sit down and discuss our thinkings ..we might come to a
common
conclusion.

R R R R ...that's the difference between you and doug, and myself. YOU
need each other. I am independent and need neither YOU or anyone else
to know the truth when I see it.

In some ways I'm a bit more radical than Doug....

The difference between you and Doug is a college degree, considerable
intelligence, and MORE moral degeneracy than you. HE knows better. You
are a weak ego'd ignorant sap and can and should be forgiven some of
your idiocy.

and even more
direct... but our goals or very much in kind.

Yeah. I noticed. He just hides his better.

I don't know how Fern fits
in... except the number of posts and references give substance to
Doug and
me.... and cannot in any way be described as confrontational.

R R R R R....but that's the point, idiot. IT makes claims and posts
propaganda and never offers any argument or debate. Just adhom when it
gets caught yet again at it's lies.

As much as we extoll

You don't even know what that word means. You are trying to sound like
you have a smart or two and you are a dummy on Doug's lap.

the benefits of being americans, resouceful, kind,
generous, and successful as a nation, etc etc etc...

R R R R ...we are lots of things but I defy you to prove that we are
universally or moreso what you claim than other nations of people.

I find nothing, in my world travels, but similarities under the
surface appearances that you let yourself be deceived by.

You have been media propagandized. It's everywhere, comic books, great
books, movies, opera, everywhere, dummy. YOu are programmed to be a
bigot and stay ignorant of your own ignorance and brain washing.

we are also made out to
be a nation of baby killers... at least in the eyes of CPS and their
supporters.

What babble is this now? The number of parents, out of all in the US,
that hurt or kill their children is miniscule. CPS is not this giant
problem. It's big, but not that big.

And sorry to have to tell you this, peckerwood, but Americans, as in
WHITE Americans, have been a nation of baby killers for a very long
time now. Ask some native Americans..you know the "injuns" some of
whom are "messicans."

I don't know if there are any easily located numbers, but black
Americans have had a higher rate, I do believe, of infant and birth
deaths than whites because of the unavailability of prenatal services.
Been goin' on now for oh....maybe 400 years, plus or minus.

The majority wonder how we survied all the years absent CPS, absent
current
law, and absent federal control.

"We" didn't survive. Children suffered. A great deal. I saw a lot of
child abuse around me as a child myself, and wondered at it. It didn't
fit with the words coming from the mouths of the adults. Especially
the religious ones.

All parents are neglectful, all endanger
the lives of their children, and all are abusive.

Nope. Nope. Nope.

Wrong on all three counts. Some don't even do one of those. You are
trying to exagerate normal everyday human behavior, like doing the
laundry, with not being 100% attentive and in the child's presence.

You are learing your Douggie lessons well.

If one wants to argue
that 'all' is a misstatement or 'lie' so be it... but the fact
remains...CPS
views ALL parents as suspect.

Liar. Neither CPS nor it's workers "views ALL parents as suspect."

Or is this just a figure of speech?

I'm not sure if the goal is to abolish parents or destroy families
but both
are on the verge of extinction. Rare is the traditional family
these days.

R R R RR ......well, except with "messicans" "injuns" and black
folks....R R R R R ...what a sap. And about umpteen million relatively
recent immigrants.

You stupid ass. It's WHITE mainstream americans that have let go of
their family values (and not all that much really) and OTHERS that
preserve and reintruduce "family" as a value.

And CPS is in the business of FAMILY. They are desparate for families
that don't duplicate the very thing you think you are defending, but
that turns out to be abusive and certainly NOT family values. Not in
my family, that is for sure.

If society is desireous of family as we once knew it perhaps we
should
refect back and see what went wrong...

We got waaaaay too busy lying about other cultures who DID value
family and did everything we could to disrupt those families. Try
slavery for an example.

"Family" worried the owners because family could unify and plan and
execute escape and even attack. There was simple reason for selling
family away from each other. Isolation to weaken.

I'll take a chance here and pander to your racist fears....one of the
things I admire most about American blacks is the obviously successful
fight they have made to bring their "family" back together, even when
they lost their villages tradition from Africa.

They made family despite you peckerwoods. YOU couldn't have survived
slavery, dummy. And you are proving, by YOUR inability to maintain
family in your white society, that you couldn't.

and the reasons, both rightly and
wrongly, for removing such a large majority of kids from their
homes. This
is a society of our own making.. not one that is imposed on us.

Pompous ass.

I might suggest homosexual marriages (family) is another mistake.

You might, and you'd just be adding to the burden of stupidity you
carry. "Homosexual" unions have been with us from prehistoric times.
We are animals and animals have a wide range of sexuality..we are
probably MORE pansexual than most animals. And there is nothing
abnormal about it.

It just plays on your fear of the unknown and different...your
xenophobia.

They are
in the minority

So are redheads. So are...as you will become increasingly aware of in
the next few decades, WHITES.

and contrary to politically correct thinking...

In the issue of race, nothing more than an attempt to gain equality
before it has to be wrested from us by force. As you assholes keep
insisting it has to be.

not everyone
is equal,

In rights? Sorry. They are. Law is about that.

life is not fair, and certainly not always just.

Pompous ass.

We move along in
life using the talents, resources and abilities we're born with.

Unless others say because we are black, or red, or white, or brown, or
yellow, we have more or less talents, resource, and abilities we're
born with.

There will
always be the disadvantaged, the poor, and the uneducated and a
division of
classes.

And many more than need to be. And just because of ignorant assholes
like you.

In the eyes of others there will always be risks and endangerment
to children, and perhaps a need for CPS.... but that doesn't mean we
should
destroy family and family values along the way.

This is wildly amusing. CPS is trying to keep families intact and
children (and I think we can agree, child are part of some families)
and you think the are trying to break families up. I love it. Just
love it.

Instead of imposing long held values... our society, or legal system,
is
finding ways to circumvent commonly accepted beliefs held by the
majority.

Yep....commonly held beliefs that will destroy humankind if they
continue as the population grows denser and we come in closer contact
and greater competition for resources....instaad of growing up,
valuing each other, and EXPANDING our capacities together.

Just as the traditional family is becoming extinct...

Not in black, asian, hispanic, recent immigrants, lives, bubbah.

Oh, wait....I bet you are one of those that believe in the Cleaver
model?

One man, one woman, 2.5 kids, Fluffy and Spot, and a white picket
fence.

R R R R R.

Any student of history, that bothered to notice, would tell you that
that is a model that wasn't even present in the 1700's when we got our
little start on this land that belonged to someone else.

"family" has been everything to single parent, to multiples of all
kinds, often women while the men either guarded the boundaries, or
went off a warrin' against the "families" next door, famine and
diseased societies that had to rebuild with whatever grouping for self
protection they could muster.

Nope. You are just an ignorant sot. Two or more people can and do meet
all the criteria for family. Think it through, if you can.

Ask yourself the functions of family, then examine various groupings,
from Laverne and Shirtly, to Oscar and Felix, to the Waltons, to My
Three Sons...and you'll see they and more are all "family."

so is our nation. If
it is the intention of our legislators is to create a society of
vastly
different views held by the many various ethnic groups and political
factions we might as well give up our constitution.

R R R R....what a sap. Our constitution RECOGNIZES our right to NOT
ADHERE TO YOUR TRADITIONAL M&D&2.5&S&F model.

I just love these idiots that spout the Constitution like Christian
fundies spout the OLD testament. How igorant can you get.

The Constitution of the United States is YOUR ENEMY dummy. It
guarantees all the things you are terrified of.

When I was a little kid I believed the Pledge of Allegiance...and I
still do.

Say it out loud. NOtice that part about equality, asshole.

What do YOU Think that means.....equality for you and your white
peckerwood friends over everyone else?

That only YOUR family model is "equal?"

That only YOU get to control the resources and capitol goods and the
political processes in this country?

You HATE the constitution, stupid. You just don't know it. Actually
read it and relate it to homosexuality and messicans, and
blacks...etc.

And for you I recommend you recite it out loud. The echo inside your
head keeps you from hearing your internal voice clearly.

http://www.usconstitution.net/const.txt

You'll be amazed how badly it will frighten you. IT does NOT protect
what you want it to...your privilege.

IN fact it takes away the rights you think you have over others.

That WAS the point of it.

YOU, and many other whites, are the King George of present days.

Our legislators set the
course for CPS.. and were wrong. Legislators set the course for our
country.. and were wrong then... and today... they are still wrong.

Yeah, bobberino. They were wrong and you are right. Sadly, you lose.

It's refreshing to see people starting to speak up on all counts but
absent
family ... all will be for naught.

This is on a par with your recent claim that CPS "contributed to the
politicians" etc. CPS IS LEGALLY CONSTRAINED FROM MAKING CONTRIBUTIONS
POLITICALLY.

You are a mindless stupid ignorant twit filled with propaganda and
garbage thinking that has gained a bit of fallacious importance of
self by being ****ed up the ass by Doug as he cultivates you for his
bull**** agenda.

Suffice to say you are a menace to this country's morals and values by
the ****ty little lies you swallow like chocolate pudding.

And you are a sap, to boot.

Oh, and least you forget, you are the quintessential self opinionated
babbling Peckerwood.

bobb

Kane