Spanking-related Child Fatality

So based upon this story and others like it, I need to come to the
conclusion that all spanking is bad?

You sound like a Democrat.


In article ,
LaVonne Carlson wrote:

billy f wrote:

That poor child. I wonder what the teacher told the child to made him do
that? I wonder if the way his parents were raising him had something to do
with this. Its really hard to say for sure, because nobody really knows
what
was going through that child's mind.

We'll never know for sure what the teacher said, how he was raised, or what
the
child was thinking. All we know is that this little boy was humiliated and
spanked in the name of discipline, and he committed suicide.

I really don't understand why the
teacher was fired unless the spanking was done without the school or
parents
approval. It likely due to her pulling his pants down.

This is hard to know, because the incident occurred in western China.
Perhaps
this treatment of schoolchildren is not permitted in western China. It is
permitted in some US states (Texas in particular), where children can have
their clothes removed by school officials and receive paddlings even though
parents do not approve.

One thing that's for
sure is no matter what discipline method is used there is always going to
be
a small percentage that it doesn't work for.

And another thing that is for sure is that while guidance and discipline
needs
to be individualized, no child deserves to be hit, hurt, shamed, or
humiliated
in the name of discipline. Children learn appropriate behavior through
example, through love, and though non-punitive guidance strategies.

The child likely was shamed for
having his pants pulled down not from the spanking or even more likely from
something she told the him.

You just said you had no idea what was going through the child's mind, and
not
you make assumptions. Physical assault is shaming, with or without clothes.
Physical assault does not teach respect.

I know this is going to sound really mean, but
if that child was that weak minded to kill himself over something like
that,
it would have only been a matter of time before he killed himself for
something else that shamed him.

This sounds really mean because it is really mean. It is also an ignorant
statement. Children deserve love and care, not shame and humiliation.
Perhaps
"weak-minded" children, as you call the child, needs more rather than less
sensitive guidance. This is about preventing child death, not about washing
one's hands of the death of a little child because he was "weak minded."
Good
grief!

I blame the parents for not teacher there
child better and for possible instilling a mindset that made the child have
a large amount guilt for doing wrong.

You know nothing about the parents, or the culture of China. Why would you
blame the parents?


When are people going to learn that things happen. You can take all of the
steps possible to avoid them, but sometimes bad things happen no matter how
they are handled.

And sometimes bad things can be avoided by how things are handled.

This whole story sounds very one sided. How can anyone
know for sure that the spanking had anything to due with the boy drinking
the pesticide? Do you have a more detailed version of this story?

Chris reported the story as it appeared. Another child is dead after that
marvelous hit and shame parenting strategy that so many hold near and dear.

LaVonne



"Chris" wrote in message
...

Boy drinks pesticide after spanking 'shame'

May 14 2003 at 05:48AM

Hong Kong - A 10-year-old schoolboy in western China killed himself
in shame after a teacher pulled down his trousers and spanked him in
front
of his classmates, a news report said on Wednesday.

Teacher Zou Weiming meted out the punishment to pupil Chen Cai
after
accusing him of taking his son's toy at the school in Chongqing, the
South
China Morning Post reported.

The boy killed himself that evening by drinking a tin of pesticide,
the newspaper said. The teacher was fired and the incident publicised to
educate other teachers. - Sapa-DPA

How very simplistic, "Poopie Diapers,

You have combined posts with few attributes, and somehow concluded that people who
have better ways of parenting that hitting and hurting their children must be
democrat.

Poopie Diapers, for your information, there are people of all political
affiliations that hit and hurt their children in the name of discipline. This is
not about politics, this is about parenting children.

LaVonne

Poopie Diapers wrote:

So based upon this story and others like it, I need to come to the
conclusion that all spanking is bad?

You sound like a Democrat.

In article ,
LaVonne Carlson wrote:

billy f wrote:

That poor child. I wonder what the teacher told the child to made him do
that? I wonder if the way his parents were raising him had something to do
with this. Its really hard to say for sure, because nobody really knows
what
was going through that child's mind.

We'll never know for sure what the teacher said, how he was raised, or what
the
child was thinking. All we know is that this little boy was humiliated and
spanked in the name of discipline, and he committed suicide.

I really don't understand why the
teacher was fired unless the spanking was done without the school or
parents
approval. It likely due to her pulling his pants down.

This is hard to know, because the incident occurred in western China.
Perhaps
this treatment of schoolchildren is not permitted in western China. It is
permitted in some US states (Texas in particular), where children can have
their clothes removed by school officials and receive paddlings even though
parents do not approve.

One thing that's for
sure is no matter what discipline method is used there is always going to
be
a small percentage that it doesn't work for.

And another thing that is for sure is that while guidance and discipline
needs
to be individualized, no child deserves to be hit, hurt, shamed, or
humiliated
in the name of discipline. Children learn appropriate behavior through
example, through love, and though non-punitive guidance strategies.

The child likely was shamed for
having his pants pulled down not from the spanking or even more likely from
something she told the him.

You just said you had no idea what was going through the child's mind, and
not
you make assumptions. Physical assault is shaming, with or without clothes.
Physical assault does not teach respect.

I know this is going to sound really mean, but
if that child was that weak minded to kill himself over something like
that,
it would have only been a matter of time before he killed himself for
something else that shamed him.

This sounds really mean because it is really mean. It is also an ignorant
statement. Children deserve love and care, not shame and humiliation.
Perhaps
"weak-minded" children, as you call the child, needs more rather than less
sensitive guidance. This is about preventing child death, not about washing
one's hands of the death of a little child because he was "weak minded."
Good
grief!

I blame the parents for not teacher there
child better and for possible instilling a mindset that made the child have
a large amount guilt for doing wrong.

You know nothing about the parents, or the culture of China. Why would you
blame the parents?


When are people going to learn that things happen. You can take all of the
steps possible to avoid them, but sometimes bad things happen no matter how
they are handled.

And sometimes bad things can be avoided by how things are handled.

This whole story sounds very one sided. How can anyone
know for sure that the spanking had anything to due with the boy drinking
the pesticide? Do you have a more detailed version of this story?

Chris reported the story as it appeared. Another child is dead after that
marvelous hit and shame parenting strategy that so many hold near and dear.

LaVonne



"Chris" wrote in message
...

Boy drinks pesticide after spanking 'shame'

May 14 2003 at 05:48AM

Hong Kong - A 10-year-old schoolboy in western China killed himself
in shame after a teacher pulled down his trousers and spanked him in
front
of his classmates, a news report said on Wednesday.

Teacher Zou Weiming meted out the punishment to pupil Chen Cai
after
accusing him of taking his son's toy at the school in Chongqing, the
South
China Morning Post reported.

The boy killed himself that evening by drinking a tin of pesticide,
the newspaper said. The teacher was fired and the incident publicised to
educate other teachers. - Sapa-DPA

billy f wrote:

They do this every time a child dies do to being spanked or in most cases
abused. If you asked me not spanking a child put him at a larger risk of
dying.

Really? So you admit that children die from spanking. And you accept that.
And you accept death of spanked children because because you have a different
experience with spanking. You didn't die.

I was transported in cars without settles but I didn't die. My father was
involved in a crash when I was a little girl and didn't wear settles. I'm 51
years old. We didn't have settles when I was a child. My father transports
his grandchildren in settles because he realizes that children have a far less
chance of being injured or killed in an auto accident if the child is
restrained.

My friend was born to a mother who drank alcohol throughout her pregnancy. She
didn't die. She didn't have Fetal Alcohol Syndrome. Many children do.

Let's hit our kids, ignore carseats and seat-belts. Let's ignore whatever
would keep our children safe and provide the best outcome for these little
ones. Let's raise our children the way billy f was raised.

LaVonne

On Sun, 6 Jul 2003, LaVonne Carlson wrote:



billy f wrote:

They do this every time a child dies do to being spanked or in most cases
abused. If you asked me not spanking a child put him at a larger risk of
dying.

Really? So you admit that children die from spanking. And you accept that.
And you accept death of spanked children because because you have a different
experience with spanking. You didn't die.

LOL! Typical logic of an anti-spanking zealotS. People died in hospital
also, as well as in foster care! ;-)

I was transported in cars without settles but I didn't die. My father was
involved in a crash when I was a little girl and didn't wear settles. I'm 51
years old. We didn't have settles when I was a child. My father transports
his grandchildren in settles because he realizes that children have a far less
chance of being injured or killed in an auto accident if the child is
restrained.

My friend was born to a mother who drank alcohol throughout her pregnancy. She
didn't die. She didn't have Fetal Alcohol Syndrome. Many children do.

Let's hit our kids, ignore carseats and seat-belts. Let's ignore whatever
would keep our children safe and provide the best outcome for these little
ones. Let's raise our children the way billy f was raised.

What kind of logic is that, LaVonne. NO wonder you ran away from debating
me on the studies that you brought up. Wanna give it a try, LaVonne? :-)

Doan

Children die from abuse not from spanking. A child can die from taking to
much medicine, but when given in the right doses it can be very helpful.
Children can die from food if it is tainted or from choking. Just because
children die from spanking does not mean than all forms of spanking is bad.
I really don't think you understand the concept of spanking. A child will
not die from three swats on the rear however a child may die from 100 swats
to the rear. Just because some parents abuse spanking does not mean that all
forms of it should be banned. Even if it spanking was banned there would
still be parents that would spank anyway. All a ban on spanking would do is
hurt those that use it properly. Your blowing this whole thing out of
proportion like so many none spankers do. You have your mind set and instead
of just letting parents that don't abuse their kids raise them according to
their culture your trying to change them to fit what you believe is right.

"LaVonne Carlson" wrote in message
...


billy f wrote:

They do this every time a child dies do to being spanked or in most
cases
abused. If you asked me not spanking a child put him at a larger risk of
dying.

Really? So you admit that children die from spanking. And you accept
that.
And you accept death of spanked children because because you have a
different
experience with spanking. You didn't die.

I was transported in cars without settles but I didn't die. My father was
involved in a crash when I was a little girl and didn't wear settles. I'm
51
years old. We didn't have settles when I was a child. My father
transports
his grandchildren in settles because he realizes that children have a far
less
chance of being injured or killed in an auto accident if the child is
restrained.

My friend was born to a mother who drank alcohol throughout her pregnancy.
She
didn't die. She didn't have Fetal Alcohol Syndrome. Many children do.

Let's hit our kids, ignore carseats and seat-belts. Let's ignore whatever
would keep our children safe and provide the best outcome for these little
ones. Let's raise our children the way billy f was raised.

LaVonne

The reason Lavonne never spanked her children was because her husband
did it for her.

Frank ;-


On Sun, 06 Jul 2003 19:43:09 -0500, LaVonne Carlson
wrote:



billy f wrote:

They do this every time a child dies do to being spanked or in most cases
abused. If you asked me not spanking a child put him at a larger risk of
dying.

Really? So you admit that children die from spanking. And you accept that.
And you accept death of spanked children because because you have a different
experience with spanking. You didn't die.

I was transported in cars without settles but I didn't die. My father was
involved in a crash when I was a little girl and didn't wear settles. I'm 51
years old. We didn't have settles when I was a child. My father transports
his grandchildren in settles because he realizes that children have a far less
chance of being injured or killed in an auto accident if the child is
restrained.

My friend was born to a mother who drank alcohol throughout her pregnancy. She
didn't die. She didn't have Fetal Alcohol Syndrome. Many children do.

Let's hit our kids, ignore carseats and seat-belts. Let's ignore whatever
would keep our children safe and provide the best outcome for these little
ones. Let's raise our children the way billy f was raised.

LaVonne

"billy f" ) writes:
Children die from abuse not from spanking.

That is simply a matter of definition. You can define
spanking to be "certain acts of striking a child, not
including any acts of striking that result in the
death of the child..."

I would consider that an unnecessarily convoluted definition.
--
Cathy

On 11 Jul 2003, Catherine Woodgold wrote:

"billy f" ) writes:
Just because
children die from spanking does not mean than all forms of spanking is bad.

No, but I believe that all forms of spanking are counterproductive,
for other reasons.

And you are entitled to your own belief, just don't force your belief
on others! ;-)

I really don't think you understand the concept of spanking.

Ad hominem.

Thin-skinned! ;-)

Just because some parents abuse spanking does not mean that all
forms of it should be banned.

I agree. However, there are also other reasons to ban
spanking: to reduce the amount of violence by parents
towards children; also to reduce the amount of violence
committed by the children, as children or after they
grow up. Studies show that children subjected to
violence or spanking by their parents are more likely
to commit crimes later on.

Correlation is not causation! In fact, Straus & Mouradian (1998)
found that the more non-cp used, the higher the antisocialbe behaviors.
Are you suggesting that we should ban non-cp alternatives also???

Also, a democratic country has the option of banning
spanking as a method of controlling abuse of spanking.
This is not a "should", as you say, but it is an option.

Sure! As long as it ask the people first. Must I remind you that
90%+ of parents in the USA spanked their kids? Do you really
believe in democracy or you just don't count spanking parents? ;-)

Doan


--
Cathy

On 11 Jul 2003, Catherine Woodgold wrote:

"billy f" ) writes:
Children die from abuse not from spanking.

That is simply a matter of definition. You can define
spanking to be "certain acts of striking a child, not
including any acts of striking that result in the
death of the child..."

And how did the researchers of the studies you cited defined it?

I would consider that an unnecessarily convoluted definition.

And people with common-sense would say otherwise! ;-)

Doan

Hi Doan
The more I read these anti spankers post the more I realize how crazy they
really are. I mean really these people seem to think that children are lab
rats. These experts take a group of kids that are spanked, a small
percentage of the 90% of kids that are. Most of the ones they choose come
from poor low income families. They study their behavior and if it varies at
all from what they want to see they brand them as being antisocial, violent
and having a lower IQ. I wonder if a little discrimination to the poor may
and the failure to include religious families may have been present . How
many of these experts do you think grew up in bad neighborhoods and
experienced first hand how bad life can be? Most if not all have lived
sheltered lives in nice neighborhoods. They sit around and analyze why
people do the things they do with a bunch of random studies. The truth is
they do not have a clue. Book smarts and street smarts are to different
things and if I had to choose one or the other for my children I would
choose street smarts. I wonder how many of our expert friends could make it
on the streets without the law there to protect them? I also wonder how many
of they have had to live in a high crime area. Children do not become
violent from being spanked they become that way from the tough neighborhoods
they grow up in. It just that due to the high stress lives the families
live, the parents own dysfunctional upbringing and the lack of education the
parents are more likely to strike out a their children. This does not
account for the parent that spank that are educated, come from a loving
religious upbringing and live in nice areas.

"Doan" wrote in message
...
On 11 Jul 2003, Catherine Woodgold wrote:

"billy f" ) writes:
Just because
children die from spanking does not mean than all forms of spanking is
bad.

No, but I believe that all forms of spanking are counterproductive,
for other reasons.

And you are entitled to your own belief, just don't force your belief
on others! ;-)

I really don't think you understand the concept of spanking.

Ad hominem.

Thin-skinned! ;-)

Just because some parents abuse spanking does not mean that all
forms of it should be banned.

I agree. However, there are also other reasons to ban
spanking: to reduce the amount of violence by parents
towards children; also to reduce the amount of violence
committed by the children, as children or after they
grow up. Studies show that children subjected to
violence or spanking by their parents are more likely
to commit crimes later on.

Correlation is not causation! In fact, Straus & Mouradian (1998)
found that the more non-cp used, the higher the antisocialbe behaviors.
Are you suggesting that we should ban non-cp alternatives also???

Also, a democratic country has the option of banning
spanking as a method of controlling abuse of spanking.
This is not a "should", as you say, but it is an option.

Sure! As long as it ask the people first. Must I remind you that
90%+ of parents in the USA spanked their kids? Do you really
believe in democracy or you just don't count spanking parents? ;-)

Doan


--
Cathy