Example of teaching religion in the schools

"Claire Petersky" wrote in message
o.com...

(...)

I know many people who are very keen in keeping religion out of the
schools, and generally, I'm one of them. But to my mind, there's a big
difference between religion being taught as state-sponsored propaganda,
and religion being taught as comparative religion, or within a cultural or
historical context, as was the case in what these kids did.

I wish I knew more about other religions. I can see where having comparative
religion classes in school could be a bad thing.=

Unfortiunately, I live near NYC. In NYC, the person who sits next to me is a
Jew from Isreal, accross from me is Jew from Russia. There are several
Indians, some of whom are Hindu. I am sure there is the odd Christian at
work as well.

Most of the kids on my soccer team are Catholic (I think - they talk a lot
about Wednesday CCD classes), but at least one was Hindu and a few were
Muslim. In addition, I mentor two kids, one of who is Muslim and the othr
Christian. I am Catholic, and learned very little about these different
religions during my early years.

Particularly with Islam, where I believe that none of the people who are
attacking other people are living up to their faith, and those who truely
practice their faith and very peaceful, I think there is a lot of
misunderstanding.

Anything that improves people's respect and understanding of other peoples
is potentially a good thing.

Jeff

(Robyn Kozierok) wrote in message ...
In article m,
Claire Petersky wrote:


I know many people who are very keen in keeping religion out of the
schools, and generally, I'm one of them. But to my mind, there's a big
difference between religion being taught as state-sponsored propaganda,
and religion being taught as comparative religion, or within a cultural or
historical context, as was the case in what these kids did.

I'm curious as to what your reaction is to this, especially if you are of
the No Religion in the School mindset. I'm especially interested in your
reaction if you are English or Episcopalian.

There's a big difference IMO between teaching *about* religion, and
teaching religion. Teaching about religion, which is what happened
here, is much less problematic. I think it's also significant that
your daughter's group *chose* this topic (though the rest of the class
does end up getting it "forced" upon them).

And the class was also "forced" to learn about clothing styles etc.

It does seem like a bit of a stretch since I don't think religion comes
into "The Secret Garden" at all, that I can recall.

I thought the projects were supposed to be about English and Indian
cultures, so it doesn't sound like a stretch to me, religion being an
important part of the culture.

Sounds like a great project, well done!

I don't think religion should be endorsed by schools or assumed by
schools, but I think it's fine if comparative religion or the history
of religion or religion as a part of culture is carefully taught in
schools, and I think it's fine if kids choose to do projects about
religion, including their own religions. Kids do projects about their
pets and their siblings and their vacations, why not their religions?
(I am not religious myself.)

But I don't see
any harm in students learning about the religious beliefs/practices
of other places and of various religions at home as well.

--Robyn

Since this original post has generated some interest...well, now that they
finished their cross-cultural explorations, they're apparently on to botany
next -- they're studying the gardens and the plants that are described in
the book.

Emma's really enjoying this class!


--
Warm Regards,

Claire Petersky
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Home of the meditative cyclist:
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"Claire Petersky" wrote in message
k.net...
"Penny Gaines" wrote in message
...
Claire Petersky wrote in
m:

Anyway, it sounds like it was really fun way for them to learn about
English
history. Especially the Jedis in the Cathedral.

This is wandering off-topic, but aren't there a number of people in the UK
who identified their religious beliefs in a recent census as Jedi?

Also, someone forwarded me this link, which I pass on to others who may be
interested religious scenes shown in legos:

http://www.thebricktestament.com/


Interesting, though, that the last supper shows a man immediately on the
left of Jesus, rather than a woman.


--
"There are 10 kinds of people in the world:
those who understand binary numbers and those who don't."
-----------------------------
Byron "Barn" Canfield

In article ,
Nevermind wrote:


(Robyn Kozierok) wrote in message
.. .

There's a big difference IMO between teaching *about* religion, and
teaching religion. Teaching about religion, which is what happened
here, is much less problematic. I think it's also significant that
your daughter's group *chose* this topic (though the rest of the class
does end up getting it "forced" upon them).

And the class was also "forced" to learn about clothing styles etc.

These topics are generally considerably less controversial than religion.
I do think care must be (and was in this case) taken when teaching
about religion to avoid endorsing or pushing any particular beliefs.
I don't think such issues come up when discussing historic clothing
styles.

--Robyn (mommy to Ryan 9/93 and Matthew 6/96 and Evan 3/01)

In article ,
Rosalie B. wrote:

I don't remember reading any of classic books in school however. I
remember Shakespeare in HS. And we did have religion covered in World
History in the 10th grade. And I remember memorizing poetry
sometimes. (I wandered lonely as a cloud in the 6th grade)

But I didn't have to read The Scarlet Letter, Little Women, Anne of
Green Gables, or Little House on the Prairie or anything that I would
think of as classics) in secondary school, nor do I remember my
children doing so (although my son had to read "Lord of the Flies"
which I had never read)


Wow, that seems really odd to me. My English classes in High
school were definitely centered around the study of literature,
most of which I would certainly classify as "classics". Are you
really saying you studied no literature in school other than
Shakespeare?

Here are the books/stories/plays I remember being required to read in
Junior High and High School. I'll leave it as an exercise for the
reader to determing whether or not they are classics. These are
approximately in the order of the grade in which we read them.
There were more than this; these are only the ones I can remember
off-hand.

Call of the Wild
Day of the Triffids
Lord of the Flies
Cask of Amontillado
Greek/Roman mythology
To Kill a Mockingbird
The Merchant of Venice
Brave New World
On the Beach
2001 A Space Odyssey
A Separate Peace
Romeo and Julliet
The Glass Menagerie
The Doll's House
The Scarlet Letter
The Crucible
The Secret Life of Walter Mitty
The Lottery (short story by Shirley Jackson)
A Christmas Carol
The Red Badge of Courage
The Adventures of Tom Sawyer
The Great Gatsby
Wuthering Heights
Fifth Business
1984
Hamlet
Heart of Darkness
King Lear
The Apprenticeship of Duddy Kravitz
L'Etranger (Camus -- read in French class)


Even now, with my kids only 3, 8 and 11yo, the older ones have read or
had read to them several pieces of classic literature. I would find it
*really* odd for a school not to cover that!


It would be interesting to try to come up with a list of books folks
think "all kids should read" at various age levels.

--Robyn

Robyn Kozierok mentioned in passing :

Wow, that seems really odd to me. My English classes in High
school were definitely centered around the study of literature,
most of which I would certainly classify as "classics". Are you
really saying you studied no literature in school other than
Shakespeare?


Well, for wahta it's worth to say about New jersey and Vermont schools in
the 1960's and early 70's, I was able to assiduously avoid nearly all of the
classics. In fact, there was no true required reading at the New Jersey
elementary school I attended grades 4-6. There was some reading in Jr. High
in Vermont, like Lord of the Rings, but I recall very little about that -
and I was and am an avid reader. In high school I managed to avoid the
official classics because we were given an alternate reading list that
consisted of more moder works like Farenheit 451, Brave New World, Animal
Farm and the like. I read those because I refused to read Jayne Eyre and
the like. So, I've never read those "classics", including Shakespear,
although I've seen some on stage or screen. I am also, ahem, a real sci-fi
nut, at least in part due to reading those Ray Bradbury and I. Assimov
books.

snip of list of books read as youth
Even now, with my kids only 3, 8 and 11yo, the older ones have read or
had read to them several pieces of classic literature. I would find
it *really* odd for a school not to cover that!



Now, oddly enough, we have been requiring DS, whom we home school, to read
various classics. He's read things like Island of the Blue Dolphin, Tom
Sawyer, Call of the Wild, & Treasure Island so far.

It would be interesting to try to come up with a list of books folks
think "all kids should read" at various age levels.


That might be very interesting. I suspect there are certain ones we'd
mainly agree on, and others, probably more modern or more genre specific
ones [like "Red Planet" or "I Robot"] that we'd discuss for a long long
time. What, exactly, are the attributes of a work which lead it to be
referred to as a classic, I wonder?

-Aula

--
When we lose the right to be different, we lose the privilege to be
free. -Charles Evans Hughes


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(Robyn Kozierok) wrote:

In article ,
Rosalie B. wrote:

I don't remember reading any of classic books in school however. I
remember Shakespeare in HS. And we did have religion covered in World
History in the 10th grade. And I remember memorizing poetry
sometimes. (I wandered lonely as a cloud in the 6th grade)

But I didn't have to read The Scarlet Letter, Little Women, Anne of
Green Gables, or Little House on the Prairie or anything that I would
think of as classics) in secondary school, nor do I remember my
children doing so (although my son had to read "Lord of the Flies"
which I had never read)

Wow, that seems really odd to me. My English classes in High
school were definitely centered around the study of literature,
most of which I would certainly classify as "classics". Are you
really saying you studied no literature in school other than
Shakespeare?

I was a vociferous reader and my mom read a lot of books to us, but I
don't remember much if any required reading in school. Keep in mind
that this was 1942 to 1955 time frame.

My mom read Louisa May Alcott books, the Anne of Green Gable books,
Dorothy Lyons (horses) books, Beautiful Joe (about dogs), PollyAnna,
the Next Besters, Black Beauty, Little Lord Fauntleroy, Swiss Family
Robinson, Beatrix Potter, and I think O'Henry.

I read on my own Kipling's Just So Stories (when I was in first
grade), all of the Oz books, the complete works of Lewis Carroll
(although a lot of the non-Alice in wonderland stuff I didn't
understand) and Gone with the Wind.

I also am familiar with Mark Twain, Treasure Island, Gulliver's
Travels, A. C. Doyle, Jules Verne and H.G. Wells, but I don't remember
the exact time frame. I devoured science fiction in college but it
gave me nightmares as I would read a 1000 page book of short stories
in one night and sleep through class the next day.

I did have an 11th grade English teacher who would let us (the good
students) borrow some of his books, and they included "1984" and "The
Many Lives of Dobie Gillis". We did Romeo and Juliet, Julius Caesar,
The Merchant of Venice, MacBeth and Hamlet and probably another one
because we did about 2 a year, but I don't remember which one. (note
HS in our school system was only 3 years - 9th grade was Junior High.
I definitely know I did not read any classics in 9th grade)
..
Here are the books/stories/plays I remember being required to read in
Junior High and High School. I'll leave it as an exercise for the
reader to determing whether or not they are classics. These are
approximately in the order of the grade in which we read them.
There were more than this; these are only the ones I can remember
off-hand.

Call of the Wild
I read the Call of the Wild in the 8th grade.

Greek/Roman mythology
Read on my own or with my mom. We've got Bullfinch's Mythology. Also
fairy tales

The Merchant of Venice
Yes we did read this and had to memorize Portia's speech

A Christmas Carol
I belonged to a theatre group that gave this play each Christmas. I'm
not sure whether I actually read it or not.

The Adventures of Tom Sawyer
Yes I think we did read Mark Twain, but not in HS

L'Etranger (Camus -- read in French class)
I read this in college French

I have never read Tom Swift books, any Dickens other than A Christmas
Carol, Wind in the Willows, any Hawthorne, Rebecca of Sunnybrook Farm
and I would not have read any of The Lord of the Flies (and I only
skimmed it) on my own.

I don't voluntarily read poetry.


grandma Rosalie

Robyn Kozierok wrote in :

Wow, that seems really odd to me.**My*English*classes*in*High
school were definitely centered around the study of literature,
most of which I would certainly classify as "classics".**Are*you
really saying you studied no literature in school other than
Shakespeare?

At my school, we had to do English language (grammer and creative writing)
and English literature. I think we studied a book or a play at a time.

Of the ones on your list, we studied:

Day of the Triffids
To Kill a Mockingbird
The Merchant of Venice
1984

We also did some other Shakespear plays - Twelth Night, but not Romeo and
Juliet, or Hamlet. Books we read include
The Hobbit,
Eagle of the Ninth
Jane Eyre
The Rhyme of the Ancient Mariner
Northanger Abbey
Animal Farm

To some extent, I don't think one should read all the classics at school.
I didn't actually read Wuthering Heights until about three years ago, and
there is a lot in that that a teenager wouldn't understand. OTOH, you do
need to be introduced to a variety of genres.

--
Penny Gaines
UK mum to three

In article ,
Penny Gaines wrote:

To some extent, I don't think one should read all the classics at school.
I didn't actually read Wuthering Heights until about three years ago, and
there is a lot in that that a teenager wouldn't understand. OTOH, you do
need to be introduced to a variety of genres.

I agree that if you read a book too soon, you might not get everything you
could/should out of it, and you may not read it again. (I try to watch
out for that with my kids who are precocious readers but don't grasp all
the other aspects of a book if they read them too young.)

I don't think there's any danger of anyone reading "all" the classics
in school (there are just too many out there). On the other hand, I think
a decent chunk of the population will not read a single classic that
they aren't forced to read in school. I can think of only a handful of
classics that I've read on my own. (I do read, but I tend to read more
"junk" adventure/mystery/fantasy novels just for fun.) So to the extent
that we believe that a certain core familiarity with the classics (either
particular books or authors or genres) is important to an educated
populace, I think we need to make sure that that gets included in our
K-12 education programs.

Do any standardized tests test anything at all about literature? Not
necessarily specific works, but even topics like themes, symbolism,
etc?

I should say that I'm a mathematician/computer scientist, but I still
think a certain level of literary study is important for all young
people.

--Robyn