"Parenting Without Punishing"

Nope. Everyone has the right to their opinion, and expression of it.
Steve

No one has said that a child could not have an opinion or the right to
express it. The point is that when all is said and done the parents
decision is the one that counts whether the child agrees with it or not. As
long as I am legaly responsible for my children they will do what I say in
my house. They have the right to challenge me but in the end My husband and
I have the final say on what our children do.

You are seeing any oppisition to a child getting his/her own way as
stiffling them. Honnestly life will not always let a child have every
single thing they want. and no they will not ALWAYS get to express there
opinion about everything in life. Today I spanked my daughter for pulling a
chair to the stove to see what was in the pan i was cooking in the first
time I have spanked her in a month do you know why? When I was a little
older then her I got a 3rd deg burn on my left hand and would rather her
have a sore bottom and a bruised ego then to see her in the emergency room
going through the trama that I went through as a small child.

Tori
--
Bonnie 3/20/02
Anna or Xavier due 10/17/04

Teen boys masturbate twice a day, teen girls 5 times or more!

You should stop reading those sex stories news groups they are starting to
go to your head.

Tori

--
Bonnie 3/20/02
Anna or Xavier due 10/17/04

On Wed, 23 Jun 2004, R. Steve Walz wrote:

Nathan A. Barclay wrote:

I'm not going to respond to most of this because it would take too long
compared with any likely benefit.
---------------
In other words, I whupped your ass logically and rationally.


I will point out, though, that I do NOT
hold the kind of double standard you're accusing me of.
---------------
So you actually didn't say any of the ridiculous sexist ****
that you said? Maybe it was Net-gremlins, eh?

More "****" coming out of your mouth, Steve? ;-)

Doan

On Wed, 23 Jun 2004, R. Steve Walz wrote:

Doan wrote:

Of course anything to avoid having to discuss the Straus & Mouradian
(1998) study. :-)
Doan
------------------
Hah!
Your blatant misstatement and misleading mischaracterization of
that study is absolutely the only touchstone of hope for your
sick vicious cause of abuse, you poor piece of desperate insane
neurotic crap!!
Steve

LOL! You are constipated? ;-)

Doan

Tori M. wrote:

You are confused and codependent in your grasp of proper human
boundaries!!
Steve

And you are confused into believing that life is suposed to or ever will be
fair...
--------------
The thrust of all human history, technology, government, medicine,
is to make life fair, this will continue infinitely.


There will always be someone that is smarter/faster/luckier then
you.
-------------------
Not if we make it illegal for anyone to suffer because of such
accidents!


letting your children have some false sense that the world is fair is
detramental not only to their personal well being but to everyone arround
them.
---------------------
I'm sure some asshole in feudal times said the same thing to try to
justify serfdom, or some central park mugger to justify theft, but
it was a lie then, and it's a lie now!


Remember it is "The right to PURSUE happiness" Not the right to be happy.
Tori
---------------------
That ain't God's Will or something!.

That's a few words written by a few rich guys
which are about to be changed.
Steve

Tori M. wrote:

Nope. Everyone has the right to their opinion, and expression of it.
Steve

No one has said that a child could not have an opinion or the right to
express it. The point is that when all is said and done the parents
decision is the one that counts whether the child agrees with it or not.
----------------------
No, that's a sick abuse.


As
long as I am legaly responsible for my children they will do what I say in
my house.
---------------
Until they punch your face.


They have the right to challenge me but in the end My husband and
I have the final say on what our children do.

You are seeing any oppisition to a child getting his/her own way as
stiffling them. Honnestly life will not always let a child have every
single thing they want. and no they will not ALWAYS get to express there
opinion about everything in life.
--------------------
They will in the world to come.
Live it, or become chaff burned in the fire.


Today I spanked my daughter for pulling a
chair to the stove to see what was in the pan i was cooking in the first
time I have spanked her in a month do you know why? When I was a little
older then her I got a 3rd deg burn on my left hand and would rather her
have a sore bottom and a bruised ego then to see her in the emergency room
going through the trama that I went through as a small child.

Tori
--------------------------
There are LOTS better ways. You even know them, you simply neeed
to abuse a child, because youwere an abused child, and that hurts
too bad to not try to reverse your status.
Steve

Tori M. wrote:

Teen boys masturbate twice a day, teen girls 5 times or more!

You should stop reading those sex stories news groups they are starting to
go to your head.

Tori
---------------------------
This is from reallife experience with women I know and love
reporting their habits to me, and from my wife and daughter
as well.
Steve

Doan wrote:

On Wed, 23 Jun 2004, R. Steve Walz wrote:

Nathan A. Barclay wrote:

I'm not going to respond to most of this because it would take too long
compared with any likely benefit.
---------------
In other words, I whupped your ass logically and rationally.


I will point out, though, that I do NOT
hold the kind of double standard you're accusing me of.
---------------
So you actually didn't say any of the ridiculous sexist ****
that you said? Maybe it was Net-gremlins, eh?



More "****" coming out of your mouth, Steve? ;-)
Doan
----------
You're the ONLY ****-mouth.
Steve

On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 22:59:44 -0500, toto
wrote:

On 21 Jun 2004 19:42:41 -0700, (Kane)
wrote:

Dorothy, I went to great pains to clarify my statement. A child that
is being supervised is NOT going to be frustrated. Their needs are
being met...well, we have to presume, since that IS what I intended.

That is patently nonsense.

Children get frustrated even when they are being supervised.
Do you really think that my granddaughter throwing her puzzle
pieces is not frustrated at them? I am right there willing to
help her. She wants to do it herself and is frustrated when she
cannot get the pieces to go in the way she wants them to, so
she throws them. She *is* expressing her frustration and
anger at the fact that she cannot do what she wants to do
even though no person is preventing her from doing it.

Okay, I give up. I'll spell it out for you.

Two year olds should not be allowed unlimited access to each other.
THAT IS CALLED SUPERVISION.

You remind me of the mommies I've seen that plop their little darlings
down in a pile of toys together and then ask the children to "share"
and expect it.

Two year olds are NOT socialized to share, or to the concept. They
cannot be, not even at three. At four they will begin NO MATTER WHAT
YOU DID BEFORE. It's built into humans.

Have you EVER read a child development text?

I find it NOT SUPERVISING CHILDREN TO LEAVE THEM IN EACH OTHER'S
PRESENCE WITHOUT CLOSE SUPERVISION, INCLUDING PHYSICAL BARRIERS
BETWEEN THEN PRE FOUR YEARS OLD.

This niggling of yours about children being frustrated is a pain in
the ass because you are stubbornly focusing on what WILL happen
without close supervision.

What did you THINK I meant?

When I say "2 year old" and "supervision" in the same sentence I am
NOT talking about supervision and a five year old.

What I find all too often in parents is stupidity and ignorance about
the difference between the two and punishment of the child or a CLAIM
THE CHILD IS EXPRESSING FRUSTRATION. They are DOING NO SUCH THING.

They are expressing the same thing a puppy does when he latches onto
the mother's teat...........A NATURAL REACHING FOR SOMETHING DESIRED
AND NEEDED.

Two year olds, and threebees for that matter, MUST, ARE COMPELLED, ARE
DRIVEN BY NATURE, to explore by touch, sight, sound, and smell so they
aren't expressing a frustration when they grab and bite, they are
expressing NATURE....and that stupidity of the parent that put them in
a position where natural behavior would result in what the parent
wants to call a fight and frustration and punish for.

Get with it, lady.

Wake up.

Don't suggest for a minute that a mother should put her two year old
in such a position and then blame the child by claiming he or she is
"frustrated." That is ****ty think.

The parent is responsible for the child, not the other way around.

It is the easiest thing in the world, if ONE JUST THINKS AND SEEKS OUT
KNOWLEDGE, to completely remove frustration from the child's life.

THINK. If a child is driven as I say what do you do instead of put
them with another child?

YOu put the with those objects that stimulate all those senses. They
DON'T NEED EACH OTHER, DESPITE THE COOING COOKOO MOMMIES, AT 2 OR EVEN
THREE.

Check out how many attendants good high end day care provides per
toddler and younger. THEY HAVE read the damn child development books
and they know the child should be interacting with the caregiver, NOT
THE OTHER LITTLE PUPPY.

My children had NO frustration that I damn well didn't step in and
immediately eleviate. They NEEDED SOMETHING. It's my job to give it,
then step back as they learn until they need the next thing.

It SOUNDS like being a servant and doing a lot, but children so
treated need their parents LESS than children that are poorly
supervised. Or stupidly parenting in conflict with nature and the
normal developmental steps of the child.

IT'S F***KIN' EASY TO PARENT CORRECTLY. It damn near get's boring the
kid can do so much for themselves.

TWITS MAKE PARENTING HARD, not kids.

Sheeesh.....grin

Kane

On Wed, 23 Jun 2004, R. Steve Walz wrote:

Doan wrote:

On Wed, 23 Jun 2004, R. Steve Walz wrote:

Nathan A. Barclay wrote:

I'm not going to respond to most of this because it would take too long
compared with any likely benefit.
---------------
In other words, I whupped your ass logically and rationally.


I will point out, though, that I do NOT
hold the kind of double standard you're accusing me of.
---------------
So you actually didn't say any of the ridiculous sexist ****
that you said? Maybe it was Net-gremlins, eh?



More "****" coming out of your mouth, Steve? ;-)
Doan
----------
You're the ONLY ****-mouth.
Steve

Nope! You are, "never-spanked" boy! :-)

Doan