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#51
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Character of a growing girl (middle school question)
In ,
David desJardins wrote: *You can't "not qualify" unless you really do have the resources to pay *$40k per year, for several years. (And if you can afford that, then I don't think that's true. At least, if things are similar for grad school and undergrad, it can't be universally true. The University of Pennsylvania said I personally didn't qualify for financial aid as a 26 year old freshman veterinary student. I had no assets in my own name except for a couple of thousand dollars in a checking account and a crappy TV, computer, futon, that kind of thing. They said that they had to look at my parents' assets also (I couldn't really understand why but that's what they said. I had not lived with my parents since I was 16 and they had not claimed me as a financial dependent since I was 18). When they DID look at my parents' assets, they said I didn't qualify for aid. Bear in mind my dad at that point had been unemployed for about 7 years, and my grandma was helping my parents pay their mortgage, so that didn't really make sense either. FWIW. (I ended up working 40 hrs per week the first two years of vet school AND taking out some loans on my own). *you're downplaying your resources pretty dramatically.) For everyone *else, it costs basically the same to go to a more expensive school than *a less expensive one, because the more expensive school makes up the *difference in the aid package. Well, I went to the most expensive vet school and ended up hugely in debt. I could definitely have paid less elsewhere, but, well - I got in at Penn. h. -- hillary israeli vmd http://www.hillary.net "uber vaccae in quattuor partes divisum est." not-so-newly minted veterinarian-at-large |
#52
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Character of a growing girl (middle school question)
Hillary Israeli writes:
You can't "not qualify" unless you really do have the resources to pay $40k per year, for several years. (And if you can afford that, then I don't think that's true. At least, if things are similar for grad school and undergrad, it can't be universally true. No, things aren't at all similar for graduate and undergraduate education. Within the framework of graduate education, professional schools (medical, law, veterinary, business) also are very different from academic programs (sciences, humanities, etc.). Undergraduate programs generally are run with need-based financial aid, which works as I described (the family ability to pay is determined based on financial aid forms; financial aid then makes up the difference between what the family can pay and what the program costs). Some universities also have a significant amount of "merit aid", which further decreases costs for the very "best" students. Graduate programs in academic schools generally expect students to be supported with fellowships or teaching assistantships, which pay tuition plus enough to live on (if one is frugal). Graduate programs in professional schools generally expect students to pay their own way, or borrow large sums. David desJardins |
#53
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Character of a growing girl (middle school question)
In article , David desJardins wrote:
Beeswing writes: Perhaps unfortunately, that's irrelevant. I can't expect our family to qualify for need-based financial aid for either private school or college in any case. We're in that awkward "price point" where tuition would take a huge bite and yet we don't qualify for assistance. I don't understand this at all. I wonder if you're underestimating, or misunderstanding, how financial aid works. At expensive colleges, basically, they put your assets and income into a formula to figure out your expected family contribution. Then they make up the difference between your expected contribution, and the tuition and expenses, with financial aid. Not universally true. The richer private colleges (Yale, Stanford, ....) try to put together financial aid packages that level the playing field, but many of the public schools (which have gotten quite expensive) have no almost no money for financial aid. So it may actually end up being cheaper to go to a more expensive school! You can't "not qualify" unless you really do have the resources to pay $40k per year, for several years. (And if you can afford that, then you're downplaying your resources pretty dramatically.) For everyone else, it costs basically the same to go to a more expensive school than a less expensive one, because the more expensive school makes up the difference in the aid package. The cost of the school varies enormously and the financial aid available varies enormously, but not necessarily in a synchronized way. You can end up with a bargain or hellishly expensive education at almost any point in the "reputation" spectrum. Maybe your child ends up with more loans, but on the other hand, he or she will typically have a higher income after attending the more prestigious school (regardless of whether or not he/she actually learns more---this is just the way the world works), so that's pretty much a wash. You only get a bigger income if you decide to go into one of the money-making fields. If you decide to do something useful to society (like being a public defender instead of an ambulance chaser, or a teacher rather than stock broker), your salary does not increase just because you went to a more prestigious school, though your chance of getting the job you want does increase. It's also not too early to start thinking about playing the system. For better or worse, the financial aid system is subject to a fair amount of manipulation (e.g., decisions about one kind of saving, vs another, can make a big difference---I don't think it's "dishonest" to take this into account when planning your financial future). For that matter, if you do choose to send your child to the private school, that will reduce your savings when it's time for college, thus getting you more aid. So it's not so clear that the private school costs very much over the long term. The system really does penalize saving for college. Unfortunately, the system doesn't only penalize saving for college---it also penalizes living within one's means, saving for retirement, owning one's own house, and in general any sort of fiscal responsibility. That is inherent in any system that tries to set up financial aid tied to "need". I much prefer the European model, where support for college is tied to "merit" defined rather loosely---basically, anyone who can get into college is given full support. -- Kevin Karplus http://www.soe.ucsc.edu/~karplus life member (LAB, Adventure Cycling, American Youth Hostels) Effective Cycling Instructor #218-ck (lapsed) Professor of Computer Engineering, University of California, Santa Cruz Undergraduate and Graduate Director, Bioinformatics Affiliations for identification only. |
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Character of a growing girl (middle school question)
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#55
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Character of a growing girl (middle school question)
Helen writes:
I don't think the world works that way for most of us. The choice of career usually makes far more difference in the potential for high earnings than the choice of college. It doesn't have to make very much difference, to pay for the marginal cost of the loans. Suppose that the typical college graduate has a career of 40 years making an average salary of $50,000 (in constant dollars--- the salary will of course increase with inflation, but that's discounted in the time value of money). So that's $2 million in compensation over a lifetime (in present-value dollars at the time of graduation). If a student graduates with $20,000 in extra loans, as a result of attending the more expensive rather than the less expensive institution, then that student would only have to make 1% more, over his or her lifetime, to break even. I don't think heavy student loans are a good thing, for various reasons, and I don't encourage people to take them on lightly. But they do have to be viewed in context. David desJardins |
#56
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Character of a growing girl (middle school question)
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#57
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Character of a growing girl (middle school question)
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#58
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Character of a growing girl (middle school question)
In ,
David desJardins wrote: *Hillary Israeli writes: * You can't "not qualify" unless you really do have the resources to pay * $40k per year, for several years. (And if you can afford that, then * * I don't think that's true. At least, if things are similar for grad school * and undergrad, it can't be universally true. * *Graduate programs in professional schools generally expect students to *pay their own way, or borrow large sums. That wasn't my impression. My strong impression based on the comment from the financial aid office to my mother, made on the telephone with me standing in the office, that "you need to sell your house, is all," is that graduate programs in professional schools, or at least at Penn, expect the parents to ante up to pay the bills. My working was not "permitted" by the school (if they'd known, they would have been very upset about it). -- hillary israeli vmd http://www.hillary.net "uber vaccae in quattuor partes divisum est." not-so-newly minted veterinarian-at-large |
#59
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Character of a growing girl (middle school question)
Kevin Karplus wrote:
In article , David desJardins wrote: Beeswing writes: Perhaps unfortunately, that's irrelevant. I can't expect our family to qualify for need-based financial aid for either private school or college in any case. We're in that awkward "price point" where tuition would take a huge bite and yet we don't qualify for assistance. I don't understand this at all. I wonder if you're underestimating, or misunderstanding, how financial aid works. At expensive colleges, basically, they put your assets and income into a formula to figure out your expected family contribution. Then they make up the difference between your expected contribution, and the tuition and expenses, with financial aid. Not universally true. The richer private colleges (Yale, Stanford, ....) try to put together financial aid packages that level the playing field, but many of the public schools (which have gotten quite expensive) have no almost no money for financial aid. So it may actually end up being cheaper to go to a more expensive school! Didn't the Ivies have to stop this practice because it broke the anti-trust law? But I agree it's often less expensive to attend private colleges instead of public because they can put together bigger aid packages. Jeanne |
#60
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Character of a growing girl (middle school question)
In article , Hillary Israeli says...
In , David desJardins wrote: *Hillary Israeli writes: * You can't "not qualify" unless you really do have the resources to pay * $40k per year, for several years. (And if you can afford that, then * * I don't think that's true. At least, if things are similar for grad school * and undergrad, it can't be universally true. * *Graduate programs in professional schools generally expect students to *pay their own way, or borrow large sums. That wasn't my impression. My strong impression based on the comment from the financial aid office to my mother, made on the telephone with me standing in the office, that "you need to sell your house, is all," is that graduate programs in professional schools, or at least at Penn, expect the parents to ante up to pay the bills. My working was not "permitted" by the school (if they'd known, they would have been very upset about it). My experience is very much along the lines of David's description. Graduate students in the engineering/sciences and some in the humanities finance through assitantships from their department or a related department, professional students (law, medicine, business, veterinary) generally self-finance through loans against expected high earning power. I did apply for financial aid as something of a back-up for my first year at the institution where I obtained my doctorate, and in that process I was treated as something of a beggar (more than when I applied as an undergraduate). Because that's not the usual path for financing graduate school. I would put forth that the response your mother got was exactly because you and she, apparently, were trying to go the student aid route. Banty |
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