empathy in parenting

"R. Steve Walz" wrote in message
...
M.E. Mitchell wrote:

"R. Steve Walz" wrote in message
...
M.E. Mitchell wrote:

"R. Steve Walz" wrote in message
[]
People who try to force their children into personal habits like
brushing their teeth, would find, if they could observe the mind
and
actions of their adult children, that their child avoids it,
dislikes
it, and puts off or does poorly at personal dental care to the
extent
that it affects their dental health.

So whether you force your child to brush their teeth or not they
will
have
cavities is what you are basically saying. Without dental
insurance,
that
comes right out of my pocket.
---------------------
No, you missed half my mesaage: If you never force or coerce, and if
you use it as a bribe and a way to show them attention, "if you're
good I'll brush your teeth for you", and make it a fun thing, then
they
will do it gladly. It is the coercion itself that makes a child
resistant to good habits that are forced. My kids would line up with
their toothbrush and favorite paste to lay on my lap and have their
teeth brushed, because such things were NEVER forced in our house.

That's your house with your kids....didn't work in mine.
------------------------
Of course it would, you didn't try it because you preferred bullying.

Way off base again. You should be very careful and not generalize every
situation especially when you weren't there.

You have to be gentle and respectful to children, YOU must treat them
the way YOU would WANT YOURSELF to be treated by superior 12 foot tall
giants who could screw around with your life if they wanted to.


Your generalizing doesn't apply to every child. My middle daughter
would
not brush her teeth nor let me brush them. I had her pick out the
toothbrush, we tried several toothpastes, that wasn't the problem.
She
was
just stubborn and didn't want a bath, hair brushed, teeth brushed,
etc.
-------------
You were forcing her.

No she picked the stuff out but wouldn't use it.
--------------------
Then you wait, and you talk, and you show her on yourself, and you
NEVER EVER FORCE HER, and once she is SURE that YOU WON'T DO THAT,
she won't be so scared of you. Her previous experiences with you
had taught her she couldn't trust you!

Obviously you didn't have stubborn children. She watched me, my husband and
her older sister.

I
had to pin her down and brush them to get the message to her that
teeth
need
to be brushed.
--------------
No, she squirmed once for some other reason and so you forced her,

Hahahahaha...you make me laugh because you are so clueless. You don't
know
my child.
-------------
Nervous, guilty laughter.

No guilt. Not nervous. Just funny that you are so clueless. You're a
clown!


She didn't "squirm". Squirming would have been ok.
--------------------
Ever? She was always obedient?? Pay better attention.

Squirming would have been ok. She did more than squirm, she would run away.
So I must not have been as "forceful" and as "bullying" as you generalized
here.


and then you ALWAYS had to because you destroyed her healthy
motivation toward doing it.

So she had a choice, she could brush her teeth herself or I
would brush them. She chose to brush them herself. You pick your
battles.
--------------
You don't need to battle AT ALL. She never learned to enjoy it,

She never wanted to brush her teeth from day one. So when she was
around
1.5 or 2 I was supposed to let her never brush her teeth? She would
have
false teeth by now if I used your approach.
--------------------------
A lie to justify your abuse. Teeth don't fall out over that length of
time,

She's 14 so it is justifiable that her teeth would have fallen out by now.

and those were baby teeth anyway. Why do you THINK kids get
another set?

And don't you know that if the first set of teeth have decay it effects the
second set of teeth?? Why do you think kids start going to the dentist at
age 3??

How is she going to take care of set #2 if she didn't learn to take care of
set #1??



so
the first time enjoyment goes out of her life, and she needs a
compensatory device, she will stop brushing her teeth, instead of
doing it for her own comfort.

By the time she is old enough to equate brushing teeth with comfort
years
would have passed and she would have the pain and discomfort of
cavities.
------------------
Nonsense, that would only happen if you kept abusing and coercing her
about it. Of course you'd be stupid enough to do that precisely because
you're a sicko who prefers bullying to meet your OWN sick needs!

Oh, yeah, I get a perverse enjoyment from brushing teeth LOL


How abusive it would be to ignore the situation knowing that she would
suffer from cavities, gum disease, extraction or caps. That's NEGLECT.
--------------------
No, that's what you made happen with your abuse,

But, my dear, I didn't make it happen. She does brush now. So I don't see
where you are trying to go with this.

and your sick
ass-backward attempt to justify your abuse. You're like the teacher
trying to justify keeping kids chained to desks in straight lines
because of the way they act when they are released, ignoring that
that treatment is what causes their recess behavior.

Funny how your comparisons are valid in your mind but no one else's is. You
are such a narrow minded, egotistical dictator!


Now that she is older, she brushes her teeth twice a day by herself.
She
likes the feeling of clean teeth.
---------------------------
Uh-huh. That's what she knows to say to you.
Steve

She doesn't have to say anything to me, she is 14 and does this
independently. I don't have to question or follow her you idiot. She
does
it for her own comfort and she doesn't want the social stigma of yellow
teeth and bad breath.
----------------------------
She still feels your abuse and your viciousness.
Wait a touch longer. You'll get it back!
Steve

Yeah, I'll wait and believe me, YOU will be the first to know (if you are
still around).


you cannot abuse and dishonor a
child's desires and produce someone who likes the memory or
activities
associated with that abusive dishonoring.
Steve

"toto" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 07 Sep 2003 05:22:30 GMT, "M.E. Mitchell"
wrote:

You don't need to battle AT ALL. She never learned to enjoy it,

She never wanted to brush her teeth from day one. So when she was around
1.5 or 2 I was supposed to let her never brush her teeth? She would
have
false teeth by now if I used your approach.

Really? Brushing teeth is a relatively recent phenomenon.

My oldest is 16 so if that's recent for you then it is.

I see brushing teeth at 1.5 or 2 as I do feeding children solids at
6 months. They are practicing for when they get older, not really
accomplishing much other than that by it.

Not really, breast milk, formula, juices, baby foods, cereals, finger foods
are as harmful to their teeth as it is to yours. They all contain sugar.

I don't see why you cannot let them do it themselves and teach
them how to do it properly as they grow old enough to have more
fine motor control.



--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..
Outer Limits

"P. Tierney" wrote in message
news:sTz6b.377401$YN5.252361@sccrnsc01...
"M.E. Mitchell" wrote:

Hmmmm. I really don't know that empathy can be selective. Sympathy
can, but empathy requires that you walk in the other's shoes and
really understand what he feels from his viewpoint. I don't think you
can turn that on and off depending on the particular situation. You
may realize that in the situation, *you* would not feel the same, but
you don't invalidate the child's feelings because you feel the thing
he is upset about is unimportant if you are empathetic to him.

So every time a child whines that they didn't get the toy they wanted
when
they wanted it you are going to say "I know you are angry". Well, DUH!

It isn't necessarily "Well, DUH!" to the child, y'know

Parent's are safe to get angry at. That's how children learn ways to
handle the anger. It's perfectly ok for the child to be mad at you.

How can a child learn to handle anger if they aren't made aware of the
effects on the parents?

By "handle", do you mean "supress"? If not, then what do
you mean?

I was responding to the poster who said that the parent shouldn't tell the
child how their actions effect the parent.

By "handle" I mean to be aware that what is said or done in a moment of
anger can negatively effect others. Not "supress" but "control". Count to
10. Think it through before reacting. Know the consequences of your
actions.

Adults often do that and are fine if they later have a healthy
outlet for it, such as through physical extertion via working out.
I'm not sure what similar methods would work for a toddler.

Crying perhaps.

I think a child needs to be aware that what he/she does effects others
not
just themselves. They are born self centered, it's a survival instinct.
What is wrong with making them aware of their actions on others?

I don't see any reason why that can't follow after one has
acknowledged
and empathized with the perspective of the child.

It depends on the situation. Everytime in every instance is ridiculous.

But come on, not getting one's way or getting
what one wants doesn't illicit empathy from me. I just don't like
selfish
people and there are too many of them around.

Are you of the thinking that when a three year old acts "selfish", it
is the same thinking, mindset, and logical process as that of a 30
year old who acts "selfish"? If not, then why view them the same?

The OP spoke of a 5 yr. old. And you have seen yourself that whining often
gets kids what they want. Parents feel so guilty about saying "no" that
it's not even in their vocabulary. What a rude awakening when they reach
adulthood and find that the world often says "no".


P.
Tierney

"R. Steve Walz" wrote in message
...
M.E. Mitchell wrote:

"R. Steve Walz" wrote in message
...
M.E. Mitchell wrote:

"R. Steve Walz" wrote in message
Let's say you want her to brush
her
teeth and she doesn't, gets angry and then you have to play this
game of
"I'm so sorry that you are angry". Jump ahead 10 years and I'm
sure
that
when she gets a parking ticket the traffic cop will say "I'm so
sorry
that
you are angry. I can see this ticket really hurts."
-------------
NO RESEMBLANCE! There is NO law that tells you you MUST brush your
teeth!!


There is a time
and
place for empathy and there is a time and place for reality.
------------
Your simplistic analogy between a mother and a cop, and between
personal voluntary actvities and traffic legalities is so stupid
and fractured as to be ridiculous.

It's not ridiculous. So many kids are treated with so much
priviledge
that
they carry this into their adult lives.
----------------
You have been so damaged in your boundaries that you imagine every
child's right is just some "privilege".

No you feel that every priviledge is a right no matter how inconsiderate
the
child is being.
-----------------
If you believe that then you never read what I say. Anyone who has
read my work knows better.


Children have rights, and if
you don't observe them they become criminal toward all authority. It
has nothing whatsoever to do with privileges, which are something
different entirely.

Exactly, I said that kids are treated with so much priviledge and you
confused it with rights, not me.
--------------------
You're repeating that as a touchstone phrase, like some idiot.
Are you really that stupid, or are you too stupid to know that!

I'm smart enough to know that when you have nothing constructive to say you
resort to insults. THAT is mindless and a waste of space and time.


The sense of one's rights being violated is totally
INBORN! If you deny them favors that are YOURS to decide to give, then
that inborn sense of violation it is NOT engaged,

And I deny them the favor of selfishness and the world revolving around
them
without any regard for others. So their inborn sense of violation is
NOT
engaged.
----------------------------------
You are merely being contradictory and denying your crimes.


if you deny them
their inborn RIGHTS, then it IS, and they WILL MAKE YOU SUFFER!!

I don't deny them their inborn rights. I don't think anyone has the
inborn
right to be selfish and not think of others.
--------------------
Yes, actually they do. We must think of ourselves first, and then only
if we WANT to may we think of others! This is true because if no one
thinks of themselves, then everyone winds up living for someone else,
and nobody gets what they want! And that would be STUPID!

Everyone knows that being born self centered is a survival instinct for
newborns. Part of survival as an adult is learning how to get along with
others. NOT living for someone else or being subserviant but coexisting
with others. That has to be learned.


They are inconsiderate of others
and think the world revolves around them.
---------------
That IS what happens when you don't observe their rights and leave
them their freedoms. They feel: "The world/my parents don't behave
properly toward ME, so why should I toward anyone else!?" There is
an INBORN sense of mis-treatment when their rights are violated by
parents!

There is a big difference between denying a child their rights and not
acting because you are afraid of them getting "angry".
-------------------
If you deny them their rights and they get angry, how WILL you know
the DIFFERENCE!

Oh my, we must not
anger the child. Give them everything they want without responsibility
or
consequences.
----------------------
They are owed their right to their own choices, and they are owed
support till they are adult, apart from that you owe them nothing.
If you don't LIKE that, and want to enslave them to make them pay
YOU back for bringing them into the world, FORGET IT, you are owed
NO such thing!

Come back, Steve...you are way out on some tangent spewing your "stuff". I
am talking about being afraid to say "no, you can't have that toy now" or
"no, we don't have time for that" because this may cause the child to get
angry. Then we need to discuss "their anger". But without talking about
how their anger effects us and we say "I'm so sorry you are angry". That
was the original thread. You like to twist things and manipulate the thread
so that you are turned into some demigod.


But what happens when they go out into that big, mean world
out there where no one is going to cater to their every whim??
-----------------
Irrelevant, if you do as I indicate, they will learn what they
must because they will get nothing BUT their support and will
find it necessary to bargain and negotiate favors for anything else.

BUT, if you violate their rights, they'll have every RIGHT to kick
your ass and forget you!


A child has
an inborn right to be prepared to thrive in the "outside world".
You are
not giving them the tools they need to cope with the world.
--------------------
They are, but they simply cannot being billed for the support you
OWE them before they are READY to. The remainder of their experiences,
INCLUDING having their rights observed, will benefit them, because
they will be able to use their rights to negotiate freely with you
for all else. Being coerced teaches them nothing, no skills at all.

They don't take responsibility
for their own actions because their parents are so busy suing
schools,
water
pistol manufacturers, musicians, etc.
--------------
You're ranting crypto-reactionary garbage. You probably know NO one
who is doing so. I certainly don't.

How narrow minded you are. If it doesn't happen with people you know
then
it doesn't exist. Read the newspapers.
-----------
You read only the funny papers, obviously.

And you are on the front page. Wake up and look outside your lonely
cubicle in life. These things did happen.


About 8 yrs. ago when the big super
soaker water pistols came out parents in the Boston area wanted them
banned
and were suing the toy manufacturer because their kids were violent.
---------------
They are still sold, and nobody cares what a couple idiots claimed.
One newspaper story does NOT count as a cultural trend.

But it happened when you said it didn't. It is part of a trend. A 15 yr.
old in NJ helps an 18 yr. old try to hijack a car. They failed and the
driver alerted the police. Police found an arsenal of weapons and they had
planned to kill several people. What do the parents of the15 yr. old say?
They are hiring experts and lawyers to say that their 15 yr. old was forced
by the 18 yr. old. If they stopped making excuses and blaming everyone else
for what their 15 yr. old did all his life then maybe he would have thought
about the consequences before embarking on this crime. He doesn't know what
consequences are.


There
have been several stories in the newspaper about these teenage boys who
went
on killing rampages and the parents were blaming the heavy metal music
they
were listening to.
-----------------
We all know that the kind of abusive parents who manage to damage their
kids enough to make them kill will also lie through their teeth!
SO WHAT??

That is the entire point. Kids are not held accountable for their actions.


Music has also been blamed when a teen has committed
suicide.
-------------------
We all know better.
Kids kill themselves because of abuse, NOT because of some song.


They blame the works in songs for
their kids gunning others down.
---------------
Songs are a symptom, not a cause.

Tell that to those parents. They never allowed their children to know
the
consequences of their actions, they were too busy pointing their fingers
at
others all of their children's lives.
------------------------
They are violating their children's rights, and parents who do that
should be dragged to the curb by the scruff of the neck and be shot
through the head and left for the garbage pickup. What one listens
to is one's own right, period.


There are responsibilities in life that are not "fun". That's life.
---------------
Wrong, the only thing that makes anything "not fun" is being coerced
unfairly toward it, and in violation of your rights. Work is said not
to be fun by today's parents, because they don't like theirs, but that
isn't true of someone who was raised kindly and gently, one who learns
from their gentle parents how much fun accomplishment can be, and even
the process of work itself, moment to moment.

Oh, yeah, it's alot of fun to go food shopping, mop the floors, do
laundry,
help with homework. But these are responsibilities. If you think they
are
fun then come on over. I would be so happy to give you some of my
responsibilities so that I can go hang out at the beach all day.
----------------------------
I already raised two children. I had my children's help because I
didn't coerce them, I ASKED them for their help, and because I was
their friend, who helped them, they helped ME!!

So that made these same responsibilities "fun"? You have coerced your kids,
you have said before that if they didn't do you a favor then you didn't do
them a favor the next time around. That's manipulation.


When ANYONE is forced, they are harmed, and they turn round away from
their future and from their life and opportunity, and instead turn to
whomever hurt them or hit or pushed them, and they resolve to take
vengeance on them, as is their human right! This is a normal defense,
but it sidetracks their life and invariably destroys ANY reason that
whomever did so tried to claim as their justification for forcing,
hitting, or pushing them. Then, until they are satisfied they have
gotten revenge upon their attacker from behind, they have put their
life on hold in favor of ruining YOURS!

Man, your mother must have forced that toothbrush and toothpaste down
your
throat! Or was it up your ass?
-----------------------------
My parents never coerced me about anything. I saw all the neighbor kids
around me being beaten for the least refusal when they were within their
rights and should have been left the **** alone. My parents thought the
neighbors were insane, and indeed they were, their kids' lives were
all nearly destroyed before they were even out of highschool!

Your parents must have treated you pretty poorly because all of your posts
are filled with so much anger. According to you anger=abuse.


If you want your child's motives to remain on track, never EVER force
them to do ANYTHING, simply encourage ANYTHING they are interested in
and support them in every way possible!

So she never took an interest in personal hygene. That's ok. Let her
rot,
she'll be happier for it. Let her feel the pain and humiliation of the
other kids calling her a pig or stinky. She'll love me for it. :-p
-----------------------
If left to their own devices they learn their own reasons to do things,
and then they OWN those understandings, they are not conflicted about
them neurotically. Kids who have bad hygiene have parents who harm them
constantly. They do NOT merely have PARENTS with bad hygiene. That's
something people like YOU NEVER seem to "GET"! Their poor hygiene is
a call for help against abuse at home!

Oh, I did read your post in the funny papers.

Poor hygiene is a call for NEGLECT at home.


Only a
parent will empathisize with a child's every little disappointment ,
not
their boss or a policeman, etc.
------------------
That's irrelevant. A boss is chosen AFTER they know WHAT they want to
do, and the police are about the violation of the law, NOT the child's
parents' assinine wishes for them that violate the child's interests
and nature. Getting to do what they want as a child doesn't make them
a criminal, but FORCING them or COERCING them when they don't WANT
something CAN INDEED make them a criminal as an older child and adult!

Interesting research, I wonder how many criminals in jail right now are
there because their mom made them brush their teeth when they didn't
want
to?
--------------------------------
Kids who are pushed around systematically become criminal. That's what
criminology research reveals.

Actually, by giving them every toy or other object they want all the
time
will lead them to be criminals.
-----------------
Why would a child who is given everything become mean, again??????
No, it will lead them to be helpless. You don't even know what leads
to what correctly!


They haven't known what "no" "or can't
have" means. If they can't afford it they will steal to get it.
------------------
If they are given everything THEY won't even know HOW! You have
totally twisted ideas of the causes of things in people!

You don't know what you are talking about. Of course they know how to steal
and have no guilt over it because they never experienced negative
consequences for their acitons.


By not
letting them realize what their actions do to others leaves them
indifferent
and selfish. Criminals are very indifferent and selfish people.
-------------------------
Nope, rich people are very selfish people,

Many rich people are very charitable. Just the act of taking what does not
belong to oneself is in itself a selfish act. The theif is indifferent
towards the hurt and loss it causes the victim.

and they get that way
by being unloved and not being given their rights as children, but
being abused into talents that make them able to steal connivingly.

A child who has cold pushy parents becomes rich, a child with cruel
vicious parents becomes a psychopath.


Do you really think that every time a
child is told they can't have something right now and then "I'm
sorry
that
you are angry with me" prepares the child for an adult life?
-------------------
You are blindly and stupidly confusing two totally different things:

A child has the human right to do as he wishes within the boundaries
of his own life.

A child does not live in a bubble. What he does or doesn't do can also
effect others.
-------------------------
You're so needy it drips off you, all you can think of is yourself,
and what children "SHOULD" be doing FOR YOU!


I said OTHERS not ME. Stop twisting my words around in an effort to justify
your ramblings.


He has the right to choose what he will do or not do,
and what he is interested in and what he will pursue.

Of course. Are you referring to dreams here? Because you accused me
earlier of killing dreams which was totally off track.
-----------------------------------
You will dominate the minds of children against you, and thus deprive
them of their formative learning period, when they should be deciding
what they like and planning their future.

You sound like an omnious carnival show fortune teller. You have no grounds
for spewing such lies.


He has the right
to have his space as HE wants it, and for that space to be locked by
no one but him, and to keep anything there he chooses. And he has the
absolute right to privacy!

And when did I say he didn't ??
----------------------
Your overweening desire to control made that obvious.

Where did you see an "overweening desire to control"? You just go off for
no rhyme or reason.


But he doesn't have either the right to either expect more than basic
support from parents, or to steal from others, or to assault others.

Of course.
----------------------
You seem to think he has "responsibilities to you".

He has responsibilities for his actions. If his actions hurt or offend me
then I have a right to let him know. Just as he has a right to tell me.


When our children wanted to **** their friends in their rooms, that
was their right,

Yes, I know. You love to write this I think for the shock value.
----------------------------
Partly, but mostly because it is true, and demonstrates that right most
clearly and soundly.


but if they wanted to rape someone in their room that
would NOT have been their right, JUST LIKE AN ADULT!!

How would they recognize it as rape if they were never told "no"?
-------------------------------
A child who is never told no ALSO doesn't learn how to say it to
others, assault is a form of saying no to another's rights.

So your children were never assaulted, never told "no" so how can they not
rape? They won't know that "no" means "no".


When our child wanted to buy a toy with their own money, that was
their
right, but when they wanted US to buy them a toy, that was NOT their
right! Etc.! When money was theirs it was THEIRS, but when it wasn't,
then it WASN'T!

I don't have a problem with that.
--------------------------------
It would seem that you might.

Your assumptions are once again wrong. Nothing here has lead you to that
conclusion. You just like to think of yourself as "super dad" and everyone
else is wrong and abusive. I don't recall ever seeing you post "I agree
with you". Your posts are always nasty, angry and confrontational. You
must have been very abused.


Children must be given the SAME rights as adults to their decisions in
their OWN lives,

They have rights but they are not developmentally or cognitively capable
to
make the same decisions that adults can make. That is why they need
their
parents' guidance and experience.
---------------------------------
No, they need the practice, that is why you owe them their support
till adulthood, to offer them the situation in which to learn for
themselves by their own chosen experiences.

I see guidance as a form of support. I see sharing my experiences with my
children as a way for them to learn and grow. It also is a springboard for
indepth conversations. I share my experiences and they share theirs.
(watch, he'll say "that's what they want you to believe") Try to take
things at face value and don't delve where you don't know what you are
talking about.


and they must be held accountable for the SAME crimes
as adults and NO MORE than that.

It depends on the age of the child, the crime, the mental development,
etc.
Being held accountable for their actions and appropiately basing that
accountability on their age, etc. is different then holding an adult
accountable.
-------------------
I never said the accountability would be the same at every age.

You did, you said " and they must be held accountable for the SAME crimes as
adults and NO MORE than that."


I'm not saying
to never be empathetic but not all the time over every little thing.
--------------
You're confused about boundaries, you tramp all over children's proper
rights and boundaries and are then surprised when they do the same to
yours by demanding things that are not their right to demand!!

My kids don't demand things because they were raised with the word "no"
along with an explanation of why.
---------------------
That is an improper way to do that. They need to learn what they have
a right to and ALSO how to get anything more than that by negotiation.
"No" teaches nothing.


They know that they are loved and cared
for. They know this because every day I hug and tell them how special
they
are and how proud I am to be their mother. When I mad they know that I
am
mad at their actions and not with them. That I can get mad and still
love
them (we have discussed this many times) They know that their parents
don't
deny them things unless it is unreasonable and out of reach. They were
raised to understand that they can't always get what they want. There
are
monetary limits, time limits, etc. They know that you can't always get
what
you want in life because in life there are real boundaries. They know
that
there are other siblings that time and money are shared with. All this
they
know and understand without having to stop every time and say "I know
you
are angry". As a matter of fact, they don't get angry because they know
the
denial is not out of malice.
------------------------
Why not just tell them you can't afford it? You keep acting like it
would be some affront to let them know that,

You are wrong, I said that I say "no" with an explanation. So I add "no" so
what.

and so instead you want
to petulantly deny them things and pretend it was your idea. There
is no such thing as the word "no" magically building "character", REAL
character is built by people together revealing their inadequacies
and learning that they can work together toward goals.


The child also needs to learn empathy. Something like "you hurt my
feelings
when I ask you to do something and you stomp your feet and get mad
at
me"
may help the child see things from other's point of view.
-----------------------
Having to ask the parent for favors is good practice for life.
The get to learn to negotiate tit-for-tat exchanges of favors.
But if they don't want to follow-through, then you don't agree
to exchange favors with them next time, till they make it up
to you.


Children have the SAME rights as adults and these must be honored
by
the parent, or it will teach the child never to trust the parent
for
anything they seriously want, and it generates a hatred that can
lead to later criminality, because the child assumes the society
is
an extension of their family, and that the society is "on their
parents side", and so they assume the society is abusive if their
parents are abusive and attempt to coerce them. Coercion and
ordering
children around DOES NOT WORK, it doesn't produce either
decent-minded
and kind and productive children, instead it *IS* PRECISELY what
produces criminals.

Spoiling kids also leads to criminals.
-----------------
What reactionary assbackward dark-age fundy bigot conservative HUMAN
**** like YOU

takes one to know one.

never GET is that this assertion of yours has NEVER been
shown in ANY psychological experiments!!

I suppose you know of every psychological experiment?
-----------------
In the english speaking part of this planet, yeah, damned near.
It's a hobby of mine of decades duration.

Damn near doesn't mean "every" so you are missing many.


Has there been a
psychological experiment about spoiling kids?
----------------
Sure has, your allegation as to what causes "spoilage" doesn't happen.
The children who ACT like what you call "spoiled", got that way by
having their rights abused and then being bribed with other things
they didn't want to do to get them to obey parental guidance. Very
confusing to children.

I disagree.


Maybe you could do one.
------------------
Don't be a ****.

What are you afraid you will find? That I may be onto something and you may
be wrong?


These executives that embezzle money, do you think they were spoiled as
kids
and wanted to have everything that the "kid" next door had?
--------------------------
No, they were unloved and needed to find a compensation for the hole
in their soul. They were also fundamentally dishonored in secret. It
won't fill, no matter how they try, and so it takes ever more of
something that won't make the big secret open up. Money and power
look a little like love, but aren't, and you never have to reveal
your need, but you suffer horribly and die alone.


I have seen it first hand with people I know. Kids who grew up next
door
to us were never told "no". They were given everything they wanted.
When
they became adults and could not afford everything, one got caught
shoplifting. The other got caught stealing money from work.
-----------------------------------
You didn't see everything. That's the illusion that makes reactionaries
like you think you know what causes what, but you don't. You saw the
public show, the way they were trying to hide the truth, and you mistook
IT for the truth. They were coerced, harmed and had their rights
dishonored. The gifts later were to bribe them not to tell. They got
into the cycle of "billing" their guilty abusers, which hurt them, so
they sacrified their life to something unacceptable, hoping it would
finally reveal the truth and end the lie and their nightmare. Getting
caught stealing was a cry for help.


INSTEAD!: What HAS been shown in the science of criminology for the
whole of the last century by researcher after researcher and book
after
book by the scientists who REALLY DO investigate WHY people
wind up in prison, is that IT IS YOUR sort of ABUSE of children that

Not MY sort of abuse. Why don't you say exactly what that abuse was
that
lead to criminals?? It wasn't making them brush their teeth! It was
much
worse and sinister than that.
----------------
To be fair, usually your sort only leads to unhappiness and incompetent
adulthood.

When you are at a loss you resort to insults and put downs. You try to
manipulate the other person into a defensive reaction. This gives you a
sense of superiority. Doesn't work with me.


Many times incest leads to violent criminals.
-------------------
Only because of society's shaming. It is society's shaming that makes
the child feel a victim, unless he was coerced sexually. Then it can
cause serious post traumatic stress, and it can disjoint his life.
But actually it only rarely causes a criminal pathology.

It's not society's shaming. It's the molestor's manipulations and force
that violates the child's rights and causes more violent criminals than
anything else.


From your many posts over the years, I believe you practiced that in
your
house.
--------------------------------
Now you are TRYING to be a ****, out of desperation.
Only a coerced child who believes the shame of society can be harmed
by early sexuality.


is done in this spirit of yours of not SPOILING them, your forcing,
hitting, coercion, commanding, dishonoring,

you are going off on a tangent again. your accusations are unfounded. I
can
guarantee you that my kids will never end up being criminals. They are
kind
and considerate human beings.
-----------------------------
I'd possibly even buy that, but an equally unpleasant fate need not
involve criminality. Simple lifelong unhappiness is actually worse.

And you are a very good example of an unhappy and bitter person.


ignoring the rights of
children that they have an INBORN sense of, THESE things are ACTUALLY
WHAT CAUSES THEIR CRIMINALITY!!

Where are the pshychological experiments that uphold making a kid brush
their teeth lead to criminal behavior?
-------------------------
In that case it is more a disjoint of their motivational skills.


There is however genetic research that discovered violent criminals have
an
extra "y" chromosome. They are xyy instead of xy.
-------------------------
You need to read up on this, it was incorrect, overblown, and not
statistically or psychologically well-founded.


There is also research
being done for violent genes that are hereditary Don't believe me?
Look
it up.
-------------------------------
There are a couple known to be in question, but all gene expressions
that would do so, seem to result in crime require abuse to become
activated. So it's hard to tell yet.


If they are given everything they
want guess what happens when they are older
---------------
THEY ARE HAPPY! *THAT'S* what psychological research shows, and it
is what YOU JUST REALLY DON"T LIKE, THAT'S ALL!

That's poppycock. Psychological research shows that the spoiled kid is
never happy because they are never satisfied. They are always wanting
more.
------------------------------
The child given "stuff" instead of love, becomes fixated that way,
but that's not the sort of "spiolage" you're pretending is the case.


and can't pay for what they
want? They steal. And I have seen it happen.
-----------------
You've seen nuthin'!! You ignore the difference between violating a
child's rights and confuse this proper honoring of a child it with
buying them everything they ask for, which is NOT necessary at ALL!

How dare you assume that you know what I have seen. You do not know
"all".
-------------
Damn near.

Yes, the part of God is now being played by Steve.


It is not necessary to buy them everything they ask for just as it is
not
necessary to always say "I know you are angry" "I'm sorry that you are
angry with me" when you don't buy them everything.
---------------------------------
You may be surprised that I agree, but not for the reasons you fancy.

Of course. Please don't surprise me.

The "I feel your pain" routine is silly. If you did you'd do something
about it for them. If a parent tells the truth to the child about why
they can't give them what they want, the "I feel your pain" routine is
redundant.

And the truth is "that is life". You are not going to get everything you
want because of money, time, etc. Getting what you want and having dreams
are 2 different things. Dreams can be accomplished with hard work and
dedication on the part of the dreamer. That's reality and that is what I
originally posted and got blasted about.


You are the one confusing the issues. You love any chance you can get
to
jump up on your soap box and try to belittle any other person here.
Your
selfish, intolreant and obnoxious ways are just the thing I am trying to
avoid in my children. You have no consideration for anyone that
differes
from your opinions. You are intolerant of anyone who is different from
you.
-----------------------------
Oh! You mean wrong. Oh yes, that is correct.

There is no room for difference, it's your views or it's wrong. That's very
"big" of you.


You've seen nothing but your brand of abuse, you're blind to the
proper treatment of children, you wouldn't know how to do so if you
tried! You have such poor discernment that you should simply stay
away from children altogther.

Your imagination and generalizations are out of control. Only a
narrowminded person would judge another from the one dimensional forum
of
posting on a newsgroup. Only an egomaniac would deny that anyone else
has
seen or experienced things that he has not.
--------------------------------
Or the guy who was right.

And where is he?


You go on and on and on about abuse. What about neglect? That is just
as
harmful as abuse even more so I think because neglect involves
indifference.
Neglect doesn't even acknowledge the child. To let a child get filthy
dirty
is neglect. To allow their teeth to rot is neglect.

There are as many criminals in jail because they were neglected as there
are
that were abused. Check it out.
------------
Been there, done that, WROTE the T-shirts. Nope.

So you discount neglect as abusive? I don't agree with you or your
supposed findings.

Steve

: Funny how your comparisons are valid in your mind but no one else's is.
You
: are such a narrow minded, egotistical dictator!

AJM, meet Steve.
--
ColoradoSkiBum

I don't see why you cannot let them do it themselves and teach
them how to do it properly as they grow old enough to have more
fine motor control.
My daughter is 4 1/2, and I brush her teeth first, then she does it (I ask
her to rebrush so she can get the places I may have missed, but I do this so
she can get the hang of brushing her teeth by herself [eventually without my
help at all]). She does not have the very fine motor skills to get every
spot where cavities can hang out. This was confirmed by my dentist one time
when he told me that he had to fill four cavities on his three year old
daughter who brushes herself. Until they get to a certain age when they can
manipulate that toothbrush, I think parents should help their kids brush
their teeth (of course, only if they allow it). In the next year, I think my
daughter will be on her own. There is nothing wrong with assisting your
children in this manner.

Susan

"Rosalie B." wrote in message
news
x-no-archive:yes
toto wrote:

On Sun, 07 Sep 2003 05:22:30 GMT, "M.E. Mitchell"
wrote:

You don't need to battle AT ALL. She never learned to enjoy it,

She never wanted to brush her teeth from day one. So when she was
around
1.5 or 2 I was supposed to let her never brush her teeth? She would
have
false teeth by now if I used your approach.

Really? Brushing teeth is a relatively recent phenomenon.

I see brushing teeth at 1.5 or 2 as I do feeding children solids at
6 months. They are practicing for when they get older, not really
accomplishing much other than that by it.


I've been wondering about this too. I didn't make a big deal out of
tooth brushing when my kids were toddlers, and when they got to be
able to do it, they had to do it themselves. I didn't brush their
teeth for them to any extent. I've been assuming that you all knew
something I didn't, and that I was negligent in this respect. But I'm
going to stop feeling guilty now.

FWIW, dd#1 has very good teeth and had very few cavities. DD#2 took
antibiotics for strep when she was about 2 and her baby teeth had a
lot of cavities. Other than that, I think they've all got pretty good
teeth.

My grandparents and my in-laws both had false teeth, but my mom and
dad still have (or had when he died) their own teeth. I don't think
my dad even went to a dentist until he was in his 30s and when he had
his impacted wisdom teeth removed at that time he didn't have ANY
cavities.

[ I've had a bunch of root canals (which I don't regard as a problem
that tooth brushing will solve), and impacted wisdom teeth removed
(ditto) and my fair share of cavities.]

I think cavities are partly a factor of the environment (i.e. my dad
grew up in an area with very high natural fluoride in the water), and
partly a factor of genetics [jaw size and tooth size etc.], and to a
certain extent the availability of dental care (my MIL was told she
would be better off if all her teeth were pulled and then she wouldn't
have to go to the dentist anymore.) It's too complex a subject to be
blamed entirely on the failure of a parent to teach toothbrushing at a
very early age.

BTW I'm not agreeing with Steve.


grandma Rosalie

AJM wrote:

"R. Steve Walz" wrote in message
...
M.E. Mitchell wrote:

"R. Steve Walz" wrote in message
...
M.E. Mitchell wrote:

"R. Steve Walz" wrote in message
[]
People who try to force their children into personal habits like
brushing their teeth, would find, if they could observe the mind
and
actions of their adult children, that their child avoids it,
dislikes
it, and puts off or does poorly at personal dental care to the
extent
that it affects their dental health.

So whether you force your child to brush their teeth or not they
will
have
cavities is what you are basically saying. Without dental
insurance,
that
comes right out of my pocket.
---------------------
No, you missed half my mesaage: If you never force or coerce, and if
you use it as a bribe and a way to show them attention, "if you're
good I'll brush your teeth for you", and make it a fun thing, then
they
will do it gladly. It is the coercion itself that makes a child
resistant to good habits that are forced. My kids would line up with
their toothbrush and favorite paste to lay on my lap and have their
teeth brushed, because such things were NEVER forced in our house.

That's your house with your kids....didn't work in mine.
------------------------
Of course it would, you didn't try it because you preferred bullying.

Way off base again. You should be very careful and not generalize every
situation especially when you weren't there.
-----------------------
I don't need to be there. I KNOW your kind.


You have to be gentle and respectful to children, YOU must treat them
the way YOU would WANT YOURSELF to be treated by superior 12 foot tall
giants who could screw around with your life if they wanted to.


Your generalizing doesn't apply to every child. My middle daughter
would
not brush her teeth nor let me brush them. I had her pick out the
toothbrush, we tried several toothpastes, that wasn't the problem.
She
was
just stubborn and didn't want a bath, hair brushed, teeth brushed,
etc.
-------------
You were forcing her.

No she picked the stuff out but wouldn't use it.
--------------------
Then you wait, and you talk, and you show her on yourself, and you
NEVER EVER FORCE HER, and once she is SURE that YOU WON'T DO THAT,
she won't be so scared of you. Her previous experiences with you
had taught her she couldn't trust you!

Obviously you didn't have stubborn children. She watched me, my husband and
her older sister.
--------------------------
My children were exceptionally stubborn, we cultivated that in them
by encouraging their courage and their right to resist ANYTHING.


I
had to pin her down and brush them to get the message to her that
teeth
need
to be brushed.
--------------
No, she squirmed once for some other reason and so you forced her,

Hahahahaha...you make me laugh because you are so clueless. You don't
know
my child.
-------------
Nervous, guilty laughter.

No guilt. Not nervous. Just funny that you are so clueless. You're a
clown!
-------------------------
You're posturing, and now you don't know how to get out.


She didn't "squirm". Squirming would have been ok.
--------------------
Ever? She was always obedient?? Pay better attention.

Squirming would have been ok. She did more than squirm, she would run away.
So I must not have been as "forceful" and as "bullying" as you generalized
here.
--------------------
Bull****, I know your kind!
You'll whine and wheedle and connive to deceive anyone who confronts
you.


and then you ALWAYS had to because you destroyed her healthy
motivation toward doing it.

So she had a choice, she could brush her teeth herself or I
would brush them. She chose to brush them herself. You pick your
battles.
--------------
You don't need to battle AT ALL. She never learned to enjoy it,

She never wanted to brush her teeth from day one. So when she was
around
1.5 or 2 I was supposed to let her never brush her teeth? She would
have
false teeth by now if I used your approach.
--------------------------
A lie to justify your abuse. Teeth don't fall out over that length of
time,

She's 14 so it is justifiable that her teeth would have fallen out by now.
-------------------------------
Nope, takes a lot more.


and those were baby teeth anyway. Why do you THINK kids get
another set?

And don't you know that if the first set of teeth have decay it effects the
second set of teeth?? Why do you think kids start going to the dentist at
age 3??
-------------------------------
Mine didn't, they had perfect teeth, we have a gene in my family
that prevents cavities. We don't get them till our forties. But
the baby teeth only have effect on the adult teeth if they go
untreated.


How is she going to take care of set #2 if she didn't learn to take care of
set #1??
------------------------
That's how, they learn to take care of #2 by seeing how they failed
with #1.


so
the first time enjoyment goes out of her life, and she needs a
compensatory device, she will stop brushing her teeth, instead of
doing it for her own comfort.

By the time she is old enough to equate brushing teeth with comfort
years
would have passed and she would have the pain and discomfort of
cavities.
------------------
Nonsense, that would only happen if you kept abusing and coercing her
about it. Of course you'd be stupid enough to do that precisely because
you're a sicko who prefers bullying to meet your OWN sick needs!

Oh, yeah, I get a perverse enjoyment from brushing teeth LOL
-------------------------------
You're posturing again.


How abusive it would be to ignore the situation knowing that she would
suffer from cavities, gum disease, extraction or caps. That's NEGLECT.
--------------------
No, that's what you made happen with your abuse,

But, my dear, I didn't make it happen. She does brush now. So I don't see
where you are trying to go with this.
------------------------
So you claim.


and your sick
ass-backward attempt to justify your abuse. You're like the teacher
trying to justify keeping kids chained to desks in straight lines
because of the way they act when they are released, ignoring that
that treatment is what causes their recess behavior.

Funny how your comparisons are valid in your mind but no one else's is. You
are such a narrow minded, egotistical dictator!
--------------------------
Ewww, a dictator, running your world from Usenet! Uh-huh.


Now that she is older, she brushes her teeth twice a day by herself.
She
likes the feeling of clean teeth.
---------------------------
Uh-huh. That's what she knows to say to you.
Steve

She doesn't have to say anything to me, she is 14 and does this
independently. I don't have to question or follow her you idiot. She
does
it for her own comfort and she doesn't want the social stigma of yellow
teeth and bad breath.
----------------------------
She still feels your abuse and your viciousness.
Wait a touch longer. You'll get it back!
Steve

Yeah, I'll wait and believe me, YOU will be the first to know (if you are
still around).
-------------------------
Wait and see.
Steve


you cannot abuse and dishonor a
child's desires and produce someone who likes the memory or
activities
associated with that abusive dishonoring.
Steve

AJM wrote:

"R. Steve Walz" wrote in message
No you feel that every priviledge is a right no matter how inconsiderate
the
child is being.
-----------------
If you believe that then you never read what I say. Anyone who has
read my work knows better.

Exactly, I said that kids are treated with so much priviledge and you
confused it with rights, not me.
--------------------
You're repeating that as a touchstone phrase, like some idiot.
Are you really that stupid, or are you too stupid to know that!

I'm smart enough to know
-------------
No you're not.


I don't deny them their inborn rights. I don't think anyone has the
inborn
right to be selfish and not think of others.
--------------------
Yes, actually they do. We must think of ourselves first, and then only
if we WANT to may we think of others! This is true because if no one
thinks of themselves, then everyone winds up living for someone else,
and nobody gets what they want! And that would be STUPID!

Everyone knows that being born self centered is a survival instinct for
newborns. Part of survival as an adult is learning how to get along with
others. NOT living for someone else or being subserviant but coexisting
with others. That has to be learned.
-----------------------------
Not by being coerced. That doesn't teach that, it would be like
teaching compulsory kissing.


They are owed their right to their own choices, and they are owed
support till they are adult, apart from that you owe them nothing.
If you don't LIKE that, and want to enslave them to make them pay
YOU back for bringing them into the world, FORGET IT, you are owed
NO such thing!

Come back, Steve...you are way out on some tangent spewing your "stuff". I
am talking about being afraid to say "no, you can't have that toy now"
----------------
It's not "that toy" it's THEIR toy, and NOT yours. They have a right
to it.


or
"no, we don't have time for that" because this may cause the child to get
angry.
-----------------
You don't GET to decide what THEY have time for! You need to negotiate
that with them and obtain their agreement!


Then we need to discuss "their anger". But without talking about
how their anger effects us and we say "I'm so sorry you are angry".
-----------------
And THAT should NEVER even HAPPEN!


That
was the original thread. You like to twist things and manipulate the thread
so that you are turned into some demigod.
------------------------
What a fantasy you're generating.


A child has
an inborn right to be prepared to thrive in the "outside world".
You are
not giving them the tools they need to cope with the world.
--------------------
They are, but they simply cannot being billed for the support you
OWE them before they are READY to. The remainder of their experiences,
INCLUDING having their rights observed, will benefit them, because
they will be able to use their rights to negotiate freely with you
for all else. Being coerced teaches them nothing, no skills at all.


About 8 yrs. ago when the big super
soaker water pistols came out parents in the Boston area wanted them
banned
and were suing the toy manufacturer because their kids were violent.
---------------
They are still sold, and nobody cares what a couple idiots claimed.
One newspaper story does NOT count as a cultural trend.

But it happened when you said it didn't.
----------
What *I* said was that it affected no one else, nor was anything
removed from market.



It is part of a trend. A 15 yr.
old in NJ helps an 18 yr. old try to hijack a car. They failed and the
driver alerted the police. Police found an arsenal of weapons and they had
planned to kill several people. What do the parents of the15 yr. old say?
They are hiring experts and lawyers to say that their 15 yr. old was forced
by the 18 yr. old. If they stopped making excuses and blaming everyone else
for what their 15 yr. old did all his life then maybe he would have thought
about the consequences before embarking on this crime. He doesn't know what
consequences are.
---------------------------
I think any child who does that should be relegated to a form of
State supervision and direction of his life for the REST of his life.
Kids do stupid things, but if we had a society in which such a thing
was discussed and the penalties well-known and fixed, that only the
few who were mental defectives would attempt them.


We all know that the kind of abusive parents who manage to damage their
kids enough to make them kill will also lie through their teeth!
SO WHAT??

That is the entire point. Kids are not held accountable for their actions.
-------------------
Once in a while. Same for adults. So we should place those who do
under control for a long time. But lets NOT pretend that all the
innocent ones should similarly have their rights abused.


help with homework. But these are responsibilities. If you think they
are
fun then come on over. I would be so happy to give you some of my
responsibilities so that I can go hang out at the beach all day.
----------------------------
I already raised two children. I had my children's help because I
didn't coerce them, I ASKED them for their help, and because I was
their friend, who helped them, they helped ME!!

So that made these same responsibilities "fun"? You have coerced your kids,
you have said before that if they didn't do you a favor then you didn't do
them a favor the next time around. That's manipulation.
--------------
No, that's negotiation. If I had forced them anyway, THAT is coercion.


My parents never coerced me about anything. I saw all the neighbor kids
around me being beaten for the least refusal when they were within their
rights and should have been left the **** alone. My parents thought the
neighbors were insane, and indeed they were, their kids' lives were
all nearly destroyed before they were even out of highschool!

Your parents must have treated you pretty poorly because all of your posts
are filled with so much anger. According to you anger=abuse.
-----------------------
I wasn't abused, I merely witnessed the abuse of other children.
THAT made me angry because I KNEW they didn't deserve it. Call it
a form of "survivor guilt" on my part if you like.


If left to their own devices they learn their own reasons to do things,
and then they OWN those understandings, they are not conflicted about
them neurotically. Kids who have bad hygiene have parents who harm them
constantly. They do NOT merely have PARENTS with bad hygiene. That's
something people like YOU NEVER seem to "GET"! Their poor hygiene is
a call for help against abuse at home!

Poor hygiene is a call for NEGLECT at home.
----------
Nope.
Then all European children are neglected.


Why would a child who is given everything become mean, again??????
No, it will lead them to be helpless. You don't even know what leads
to what correctly!

They haven't known what "no" "or can't
have" means. If they can't afford it they will steal to get it.
------------------
If they are given everything THEY won't even know HOW! You have
totally twisted ideas of the causes of things in people!

You don't know what you are talking about. Of course they know how to steal
and have no guilt over it because they never experienced negative
consequences for their acitons.
--------------------------
That isn't why kids steal. People do NOT simply do whatever mischief
that they never were punished for. THEY KNOW what crime does to
people, and to even WANT to do it they must have a hatred in their
heart, or they couldn't do so! And without being abused they have NO
such hateful motives!


By not
letting them realize what their actions do to others leaves them
indifferent
and selfish. Criminals are very indifferent and selfish people.
-------------------------
Nope, rich people are very selfish people,

Many rich people are very charitable.
------------
Nonsense!
Giving away one percent of what you steal is a cheap cost of doing
"business" to mollify the community into leaving your wealth alone!!


Just the act of taking what does not
belong to oneself is in itself a selfish act. The theif is indifferent
towards the hurt and loss it causes the victim.
--------------------------------
The thief dislikes his victim. That comes from hatred that they have
imparted TO them by abuse, and imagined needs they have due to
deprivation.


and they get that way
by being unloved and not being given their rights as children, but
being abused into talents that make them able to steal connivingly.

A child who has cold pushy parents becomes rich, a child with cruel
vicious parents becomes a psychopath.
A child does not live in a bubble. What he does or doesn't do can also
effect others.

You're so needy it drips off you, all you can think of is yourself,
and what children "SHOULD" be doing FOR YOU!


He has the right to choose what he will do or not do,
and what he is interested in and what he will pursue.

Of course. Are you referring to dreams here? Because you accused me
earlier of killing dreams which was totally off track.
-----------------------------------
You will dominate the minds of children against you, and thus deprive
them of their formative learning period, when they should be deciding
what they like and planning their future.

You sound like an omnious carnival show fortune teller. You have no grounds
for spewing such lies.
--------------------
It's the Truth that you don't like. I don't have to "read minds"
to KNOW YOUR KIND!


You seem to think he has "responsibilities to you".

He has responsibilities for his actions. If his actions hurt or offend me
then I have a right to let him know. Just as he has a right to tell me.
----------------------------------
You are carefully avoiding the power imbalance that you abuse.


but if they wanted to rape someone in their room that
would NOT have been their right, JUST LIKE AN ADULT!!

How would they recognize it as rape if they were never told "no"?
-------------------------------
A child who is never told no ALSO doesn't learn how to say it to
others, assault is a form of saying no to another's rights.

So your children were never assaulted, never told "no" so how can they not
rape? They won't know that "no" means "no".
---------------------------------
Of course they do, by knowing what THEY would want. People who are not
abused are not made criminals! People don't have to BE told "no" to
know what it means.


Your assumptions are once again wrong. Nothing here has lead you to that
conclusion. You just like to think of yourself as "super dad" and everyone
else is wrong and abusive. I don't recall ever seeing you post "I agree
with you". Your posts are always nasty, angry and confrontational. You
must have been very abused.
-------------------
So you desperately wish to imagine so as to avoid my meaning.


Children must be given the SAME rights as adults to their decisions in
their OWN lives,

They have rights but they are not developmentally or cognitively capable
to
make the same decisions that adults can make. That is why they need
their
parents' guidance and experience.
---------------------------------
No, they need the practice, that is why you owe them their support
till adulthood, to offer them the situation in which to learn for
themselves by their own chosen experiences.

I see guidance as a form of support.
---------------
No, that's a form of abuse. You don't give advice unless asked.
If you tried to "guide" your adult friends you wouldn't HAVE ANY!
Why would you imagine it magically works different with children??


I see sharing my experiences with my
children as a way for them to learn and grow.
-----------------
If they ask you to.


and they must be held accountable for the SAME crimes
as adults and NO MORE than that.

It depends on the age of the child, the crime, the mental development,
etc.
Being held accountable for their actions and appropiately basing that
accountability on their age, etc. is different then holding an adult
accountable.
-------------------
I never said the accountability would be the same at every age.

You did, you said " and they must be held accountable for the SAME crimes as
adults and NO MORE than that."
---------------------------
Yes, but I didn't state WHAT accountability.


I suppose you know of every psychological experiment?
-----------------
In the english speaking part of this planet, yeah, damned near.
It's a hobby of mine of decades duration.

Damn near doesn't mean "every" so you are missing many.
-------------
None YOU know.


Has there been a
psychological experiment about spoiling kids?
----------------
Sure has, your allegation as to what causes "spoilage" doesn't happen.
The children who ACT like what you call "spoiled", got that way by
having their rights abused and then being bribed with other things
they didn't want to do to get them to obey parental guidance. Very
confusing to children.

I disagree.
------------------------
That's because you prefer to believe you must abuse children.
You do so from your own sickness.


These executives that embezzle money, do you think they were spoiled as
kids
and wanted to have everything that the "kid" next door had?
--------------------------
No, they were unloved and needed to find a compensation for the hole
in their soul. They were also fundamentally dishonored in secret. It
won't fill, no matter how they try, and so it takes ever more of
something that won't make the big secret open up. Money and power
look a little like love, but aren't, and you never have to reveal
your need, but you suffer horribly and die alone.


I have seen it first hand with people I know. Kids who grew up next
door
to us were never told "no". They were given everything they wanted.
When
they became adults and could not afford everything, one got caught
shoplifting. The other got caught stealing money from work.
-----------------------------------
You didn't see everything. That's the illusion that makes reactionaries
like you think you know what causes what, but you don't. You saw the
public show, the way they were trying to hide the truth, and you mistook
IT for the truth. They were coerced, harmed and had their rights
dishonored. The gifts later were to bribe them not to tell. They got
into the cycle of "billing" their guilty abusers, which hurt them, so
they sacrified their life to something unacceptable, hoping it would
finally reveal the truth and end the lie and their nightmare. Getting
caught stealing was a cry for help.


Many times incest leads to violent criminals.
-------------------
Only because of society's shaming. It is society's shaming that makes
the child feel a victim, unless he was coerced sexually. Then it can
cause serious post traumatic stress, and it can disjoint his life.
But actually it only rarely causes a criminal pathology.

It's not society's shaming. It's the molestor's manipulations and force
that violates the child's rights and causes more violent criminals than
anything else.
----------------
You need an education. There is no evidence of that, it is most often
noted by researchers into criminology that molestation by itself isn't
responsible for producing criminals, but instead it is most often
vicious abusive treatment and antisexual punitivity that does this.
Interestingly, they are puzzled as to why.

But I'm NOT. Molestation in and of itself isn't some terribly violent
harmful act, any more than diapering a wiggly baby.

The coercion involved in the abuse of children in so-called "normal
discipline" is MUCH more harmful and violent.
Steve



From your many posts over the years, I believe you practiced
that in your house.
--------------------------------
Now you are TRYING to be a lying ****, out of desperation.
Only a coerced child who believes in the shame imposed by society,
can be harmed by early sexuality.

"AJM" wrote:

How can a child learn to handle anger if they aren't made aware of the
effects on the parents?

By "handle", do you mean "supress"? If not, then what do
you mean?

I was responding to the poster who said that the parent shouldn't tell the
child how their actions effect the parent.

By "handle" I mean to be aware that what is said or done in a moment of
anger can negatively effect others. Not "supress" but "control". Count
to
10. Think it through before reacting. Know the consequences of your
actions.

I agree. But all of this is learned and must be taught over time.
I was reading messages saying, essentially, that kids should just get
over it because they can't get whatever they want. They can't, but
understanding why is important. And I'm fine with empathizing
with the anger before that learning takes place.

I think a child needs to be aware that what he/she does effects others
not
just themselves. They are born self centered, it's a survival
instinct.
What is wrong with making them aware of their actions on others?

I don't see any reason why that can't follow after one has
acknowledged
and empathized with the perspective of the child.

It depends on the situation. Everytime in every instance is ridiculous.

I would guess that the more often it is done on a consistent basis,
then the sooner it is that the child will learn the varying messages
that are being taught.

But come on, not getting one's way or getting
what one wants doesn't illicit empathy from me. I just don't like
selfish
people and there are too many of them around.

Are you of the thinking that when a three year old acts "selfish",
it
is the same thinking, mindset, and logical process as that of a 30
year old who acts "selfish"? If not, then why view them the same?

The OP spoke of a 5 yr. old. And you have seen yourself that whining
often
gets kids what they want.

Yes, and I've also seen kids whine even more because their parents
want them to "tough it out" instead of communicating with them in a
non-confrontational manner. Some do that because they don't know
how to communicate in such a way, some do because it's their world
view, and some do because they do not wished to be embarrassed by a
crying child in public. None of those are good reasons, imo.

Parents feel so guilty about saying "no" that
it's not even in their vocabulary. What a rude awakening when they reach
adulthood and find that the world often says "no".

That doesn't mean that what you are prescribing is the way to eliminate
the above, and to avoid other problems. This suggests that those who
disagree with you are parents who spoil their kids because they are
afraid to say no. Of the posts that I've read, those who disagree with
you suggest other ways to go about it, but the end result still seems
to be "no". So I don't see how your above two sentences are relevant
to the posts that you've responded to.


P. Tierney

On Sat, 06 Sep 2003 23:41:33 GMT, "R. Steve Walz"
wrote:

ColoradoSkiBum wrote:

: I see CSB has discovered Steve Walz logic..
:
: Colorado - take him for amusement purposes mainly ;-)

Oh trust me Banty, I'm already very familiar with RSW. I just want to see
him try to reason this one out. Because if he's right, all my teeth should
be turning yellow and/or falling out by now. I haven't had a cavity since I
was in jr high.
--
ColoradoSkiBum
---------------
So you had some then? Ever wonder why?
Steve

Hi nazi pedo.




--


* All quotations from the Encyclopedia Galactica here
reproduced are taken from the 116th Edition published
in 1020 F.E. by the Encyclopedia Galactica Publishing
Co., Terminus, with permission of the publishers.