I hate homework!

Banty wrote:
In article , toypup says...


"Ericka Kammerer" wrote in message
. ..
toypup wrote:

For the average second grader, I wouldn't expect 20 sentences a week to
take very long at all. Though your child can form complicated sentences
verbally, writing is a whole different beast, as many can attest. See if
the teacher has an strategies for teaching writing. Perhaps start with a
rigid structure and then then expand from there? Is he allowed, for
instance to write, "A dog is an animal. A bird is an animal. A lizard
is an animal." When that week's words are "dog," "bird," and "lizard"?
She said previously that every sentence must include
a conjunction, so there's a requirement for at least
compound sentences. I wouldn't be surprised if the teacher
also expects that the meaning of the word be obvious from
its use in the sentence (typical requirement for vocabulary
words). Still, even the requirement for the use of a
conjunction ups the ante substantially for a 2nd grader.
True, but I was just trying to think of a way to get him started. I still
don't think 20 sentences is too much for second grade, if he doesn't have
much more than that as homework. That's only five sentences a day for four
days.

Even five sentences took a long time for my writing-adverse boy. But I would
support it more if truly we had had five days for 20 sentences! We had two
days. The words would be assigned on Monday, then Wednesday would be pick up
day, to make Thursday a review assignment and short paragraph day, to make a
quiz on Friday (and also, preserving the Holy Weekend). Monday night was the
write-out x times assignment.

Along with math, and whatever coloring dealies that the art teacher and main
teacher thought appropriate (which he also hated).

Perhaps this child is having difficulty, but I can't imagine that
most of the class is having difficulty. During one class I sat in with DS
this week, they did a 13 sentence paper. If this child was in kindergarten
or maybe even first grade maybe, but second graders should be able to do it.


I don't recall doing essays until third grade. (I clearly recall all the
students who titled theirs "My S.A."). Not until seventh grade did I have a
weekly two page writing assignment. My son had that already in third grade.
Thank your local diety I had a teacher who worked with me to start that over the
weekend.

There really has been an acceleration of expectations regarding writing,
specifically. I'm quite a fan of the importance of writing, but that doesn't
mean this current trend of *more**earlier**more* makes sense. And it had
permeated each and every other subject area in the elementary grades, under the
guise of integrated education. So that even mathematics is demanding of
writing. (On the other hand, mathematics is not integrated into other areas of
study!)

Mathematics is an integral part of science. In addition, it is important
for history, for example, understanding the population changes over time
and graphs.

It's an ideological thing that is completely unsupported by any actual data.

Different groups of kids have different needs. Considering the different
life-styles like kids with nannies and highly-educationally focused
parents to kids who have very young parents on drugs who live in
shelters, the ideal homework situation varies greatly.

However, to say that giving homework is not backed by any actual data is
wrong.

This site has many references: http://www.netc.org/focus/strategies/home.php

Jeff
Banty

Banty wrote

...

This isn't about education. It's about the current laser-focus on writing and
verbals skills.

No. While it is not about education, it is a laser focus on getting good
grades for the school on particular tests.

Banty

Chookie wrote:
L spent this afternoon on his homework. After he started playing with his
brother, he was sent to the toilet to prevent distraction, then came out to
the table while I cooked. While I was cooking tea, he said he'd "finished
that sentence," and started to put his book aside.

"Was that your last sentence?"
"No."
"Well, keep going then."

I was almost finished cooking when he announced that he'd "done the last
sentence--" Oh good, I thought -- "and was now doing the other five."

Er, what other five?
The ones for his 'favourite' five from the spelling list of fifteen words. You
have to write a sentence for each word, then use five again to total twenty
sentences. He had done seven sentences the previous night.

That is, it had taken him from 5pm to 7:30pm to write *eight* sentences.
I had best draw a veil over my reaction...

The week's homework is issued on Monday and consists of a list of 15 spelling
words and a worksheet. The words are to be written out once per day, and then
the twenty sentences must be created. It is handed in on Friday. On Monday
and Tuesday, L is at after-school care, where they allot 15 mins for homework
and encourage, but do not force, the kids to do it. L generally does his
worksheet and maybe one 'day' of spelling words. He then has Wed and Thu to
write out the rest of the words and sentences. The fifteen words are not
related thematically; there tends to be a group with some particular spelling
pattern (ridge, lodge, bridge), a few that have the same roots (hot, hotter,
hottest), and some 'scientific' words (energy, solar, wind-up).

Is this the Ants in the Apple program?

L has an
extensive vocabulary for his age(*) and is usually challenged by the meaning
or spelling of one word on the list, which is for the top spelling group. The
sentences must each include a conjunction. As a rule, I give him a 'spelling
test' for the 'Thu' column of words. I strongly encourage him to do half the
sentences on the Wed, but we are a bit short of time as we come home from
music lesson at about 6:15pm.

I have never found making up sentences difficult, but I never had homework at
his age (he is 7yo and in Year 2, third year of school). I have no particular
enthusiasm for HW so young but feel that just dropping it would reward him for
being lazy.

Is it laziness, or something else: tired/bored/seen as pointless/too
easy/overwhelming/etc?

His teacher might be amenable to some changes to his HW, but I
would prefer to give him some sort of framework for developing sentences. He
is not finding sentence construction boring, just difficult; and I feel he is
both easily distracted from it and over-thinking the sentences.

Can he produce the sentences orally, or is this too difficult as well?
If he can, maybe dictating and recording them would be more motivating
for him, or typing them out on the computer, or podcasting them.

I have PLENTY
of things I would rather (or need to) be doing than standing over L for three
hours, but plainly my cruise-past-frequently style is not working and the
situation is getting worse rather than better. OTOH I can't work out what
else I should do as I don't believe in doing the homework for him.

Speak to the teacher about it; if this is just busy work homework, tell
her it doesn't fit into your family life and drop it, or offer an
alternative that you think would better suit his needs (eg: choose one
of the scientific words and report on it). He's a smart 7yo, who most
likely reads on his own accord, and does other stimulating activities,
you don't need the hassle of the hw.

Plainly
the natural consequence of not having any playtime is an insufficient
deterrent.

All advice and ideas welcome.

(*) He has just complained that his inquisitive little brother's presence in
the loo is "impolite and unhygienic"!

"Narelle" wrote in message
u...
Speak to the teacher about it; if this is just busy work homework, tell
her it doesn't fit into your family life and drop it, or offer an
alternative that you think would better suit his needs (eg: choose one of
the scientific words and report on it). He's a smart 7yo, who most likely
reads on his own accord, and does other stimulating activities, you don't
need the hassle of the hw.

I don't think it's wise to just drop hw or change it entirely just because
OP doesn't like it or think it's necessary. What a precedent that sets for
the future. When grades become important, her son may still view hw as
unimportant, and drop it. It's not easy to just turn that attitude around
on a dime. Maybe he will always know everything and the hw will always be
busy work, but the grades will start to count for something, and colleges
don't care if one could've done the hw but chose not to.

"Ericka Kammerer" wrote in message
...
The teachers in our elementary and middle schools (bless
their fuzzy little hearts) are finally realizing that project work
*especially* should be done in school, because when it's done at
home there's *waaaaay* too much parental involvement.

The 4th grade mission project (Yes, Californians, that mission project) has
been required curriculum since my youth. But now it is done during school
hours at our local schools. The tipping point was when a 4th grade teacher
looked over a Mission Santa Clara submitted by her student. Gee, it looked
familiar. She flipped it over, and sure enough, it was the mission she
built when she was in fourth grade, with her name, among many others, still
on the bottom. It had been refurbished a few times, but apparently passed
on down through the years to be submitted yearly.

"Chookie" wrote in message
news:ehrebeniuk-D22948.21014803042008@news...

I have never found making up sentences difficult, but I never had homework
at
his age (he is 7yo and in Year 2, third year of school). I have no
particular
enthusiasm for HW so young but feel that just dropping it would reward him
for
being lazy. His teacher might be amenable to some changes to his HW, but I
would prefer to give him some sort of framework for developing sentences.
He
is not finding sentence construction boring, just difficult; and I feel he
is
both easily distracted from it and over-thinking the sentences. I have
PLENTY
of things I would rather (or need to) be doing than standing over L for
three
hours, but plainly my cruise-past-frequently style is not working and the
situation is getting worse rather than better.

I have read the other responses. My son is also in 2nd grade (although a
year older). Our school isn't as crazy with the homework as most here have
reported.

I have to sit with him or he does not do his homework - period. Only
recently have I been able to leave him to do 1/2 his math sheet and he
actually does it. We do homework late because he simply can not do it alone
and he can not do it with distractions so we have to wait until the two
little boys are in bed. Me walking around making dinner is a distraction.
Anything and everything is a distraction. We do homework for 30 minute, and
that includes his reading. We do what we can and then we are done. The
pay off is that he actually does do his homework during that time. There
isn't much whining or goofing off.

Some ideas for the above are for him to think of and orally tell you a
sentence. You say it back to him a couple words at a time and he writes it
down that way. Talk to the teacher. What are her goals with this
assignment? If getting practice writing in is one of them then agree on an
amount of time he should practice. The rest can be let go or you can write
down the sentences he said orally. If he still struggles to much with
thinking of a sentence then maybe you can work with the teacher to come up
with some ideas to help him bridge that gap. Give him a theme or the first
half of a sentence so he thinks of the last half etc. Slowly cut back on
the clues until he does more and more.

I do not think adjusting homework to meet an individual kids needs is doing
any harm at all. I don't see how it is sending the wrong message? The
message is that we need to get this thing learned and we are going to find a
way to do it. Perhaps my view is different because my kid has LD's and will
probably always need some tinkering with his homework or how he gets things
done. What I want him to know is that he CAN learn this and he WILL learn
this but he may need to learn it differently or use some different
strategies. That is a lesson that he will need in all areas of his life
forever in order to be successful. The ability to come up with strategies
that work for him will be invaluable. He will be starting a program this
weekend that will be one hour 3 -5 days a week. That should be
interesting - not.


--
Nikki, mama to
Hunter 4/99
Luke 4/01
Brock 4/06
Ben 4/06

toypup wrote:


"Narelle" wrote in message
u...
Speak to the teacher about it; if this is just busy work homework,
tell her it doesn't fit into your family life and drop it, or offer an
alternative that you think would better suit his needs (eg: choose one
of the scientific words and report on it). He's a smart 7yo, who most
likely reads on his own accord, and does other stimulating activities,
you don't need the hassle of the hw.

I don't think it's wise to just drop hw or change it entirely just
because OP doesn't like it or think it's necessary. What a precedent
that sets for the future. When grades become important, her son may
still view hw as unimportant, and drop it. It's not easy to just turn
that attitude around on a dime. Maybe he will always know everything
and the hw will always be busy work, but the grades will start to count
for something, and colleges don't care if one could've done the hw but
chose not to.

In Aus it doesn't work that way. In primary (elementary) at the most,
hw will be rewarded with a sticker on a class sticker chart, unless it
is some sort of project. Then it will be commented on under the
relevent subject in the end of year report. That's been my experience
and understanding of the system. The ONLY number that counts is the one
for the final exam he will do in 9 years time, and by then hw is not
busy work, it is essays and projects and major works that need to be
completed. From how Chookie describes her son, I think he will
understand the significance of such work by then, and, if you read my
comment to the end, I also said that I assume he reads and does other
things after school. She has said he plays chess, music etc...he is
keeping his brain active and stimulated, and imo that is more than
enough for 7yo to turn into good study routines in later years.

My DD is in 5th grade this year. At the beginning of the year the
teacher said that she will give out hw sheets, but if they are not
completed b/c of after-school activities, it's not a big deal, or she is
happy to negotiate. The most important thing is reading each night, and
working steadily on their once-a-term-project, due in the final week of
term. I found that even that was negotiable. DD had an idea to
complete the project as an i-movie, then vod-cast it, rather than just
do it in a project book. Teacher was more than happy for her to do
this, if that was more stimulating for her.

Jeff wrote:
Banty wrote:

Hint: what would be convincing would be to provide actual data that
students
perform better due to homework in the early grades.

Unfortunately, there don't seem to be many good studies about this.

The body of research seems to me to be getting pretty
darned weighty. It's true that there aren't boatloads of the
very best designed studies (hard to do the classic controlled
double-blind studies in this situation...), but taken together
the many studies that have been done seem to point in a clear
direction.

The amount and type of homework that will benefit elementary school
students depends on the family, the kids, the community and the
teachers. In urban communities, often the most successful programs
involve kids doing homework in after school programs that involve kids
doing homework before sports, arts, or other activities. Homework
doesn't work well for kids who live in shelters or don't have a place to
do it. Or with kids who are too busy going to soccer, karote and dance.

In the case of the at-risk environment, the homework
works not so much through reinforcing the concepts as by
keeping the kid out of trouble. That doesn't say much about
the intrinsic educational need for homework. It's also true
that in communities where parents are ready, willing and able
to support heavy homework loads and do significant amounts of
teaching themselves (or hire tutors), kids can make faster
progress through material...at significant opportunity cost
if you believe that a child's education includes more than
academics. The bottom line is that there may be reasons
*other* than mastery of a reasonable elementary curriculum
to have elementary homework in particular areas, some of
them even good reasons, but that doesn't really say that
elementary homework is necessary per se.

Best wishes,
Ericka

In article EuBJj.30$bQ1.19@trndny09, Jeff says...

Banty wrote:
In article , toypup says...


"Ericka Kammerer" wrote in message
. ..
toypup wrote:

For the average second grader, I wouldn't expect 20 sentences a week to
take very long at all. Though your child can form complicated sentences
verbally, writing is a whole different beast, as many can attest. See if
the teacher has an strategies for teaching writing. Perhaps start with a
rigid structure and then then expand from there? Is he allowed, for
instance to write, "A dog is an animal. A bird is an animal. A lizard
is an animal." When that week's words are "dog," "bird," and "lizard"?
She said previously that every sentence must include
a conjunction, so there's a requirement for at least
compound sentences. I wouldn't be surprised if the teacher
also expects that the meaning of the word be obvious from
its use in the sentence (typical requirement for vocabulary
words). Still, even the requirement for the use of a
conjunction ups the ante substantially for a 2nd grader.
True, but I was just trying to think of a way to get him started. I still
don't think 20 sentences is too much for second grade, if he doesn't have
much more than that as homework. That's only five sentences a day for four
days.

Even five sentences took a long time for my writing-adverse boy. But I would
support it more if truly we had had five days for 20 sentences! We had two
days. The words would be assigned on Monday, then Wednesday would be pick up
day, to make Thursday a review assignment and short paragraph day, to make a
quiz on Friday (and also, preserving the Holy Weekend). Monday night was the
write-out x times assignment.

Along with math, and whatever coloring dealies that the art teacher and main
teacher thought appropriate (which he also hated).

Perhaps this child is having difficulty, but I can't imagine that
most of the class is having difficulty. During one class I sat in with DS
this week, they did a 13 sentence paper. If this child was in kindergarten
or maybe even first grade maybe, but second graders should be able to do it.


I don't recall doing essays until third grade. (I clearly recall all the
students who titled theirs "My S.A."). Not until seventh grade did I have a
weekly two page writing assignment. My son had that already in third grade.
Thank your local diety I had a teacher who worked with me to start that over the
weekend.

There really has been an acceleration of expectations regarding writing,
specifically. I'm quite a fan of the importance of writing, but that doesn't
mean this current trend of *more**earlier**more* makes sense. And it had
permeated each and every other subject area in the elementary grades, under the
guise of integrated education. So that even mathematics is demanding of
writing. (On the other hand, mathematics is not integrated into other areas of
study!)

Mathematics is an integral part of science. In addition, it is important
for history, for example, understanding the population changes over time
and graphs.

Well, yes.

Are you reading these posts? Really reading them?

I'm saying (in short): reading is integrated into other areas including
mathematics, but mathematics is NOT integrated into other areas such as readin

You said (in short): mathematics is important

Well, yeah, mathematics is important. Is that all you meant to say? Well, the
sky is blue.



It's an ideological thing that is completely unsupported by any actual data.

Different groups of kids have different needs. Considering the different
life-styles like kids with nannies and highly-educationally focused
parents to kids who have very young parents on drugs who live in
shelters, the ideal homework situation varies greatly.

However, to say that giving homework is not backed by any actual data is
wrong.

This site has many references: http://www.netc.org/focus/strategies/home.php


Did you read this from that page?

Grade level is important when teachers assign homework. Impact of homework on
achievement increases as students move through the grades (Cooper, 1989, a, b).
At the high school level, for every 30 additional minutes of homework completed
daily, a student's GPA can increase up to half a point (Keith, 1992). Elementary
students should be assigned homework to establish good learning and study habits
(Cooper, 1989; Cooper, Lindsay, Nye, & Greathouse, 1998; Gorges & Elliot, 1999).


We're talking about homework in the *early* grades.

Banty

Ericka Kammerer wrote:
Jeff wrote:
Banty wrote:

Hint: what would be convincing would be to provide actual data that
students
perform better due to homework in the early grades.

Unfortunately, there don't seem to be many good studies about this.

The body of research seems to me to be getting pretty
darned weighty. It's true that there aren't boatloads of the
very best designed studies (hard to do the classic controlled
double-blind studies in this situation...), but taken together
the many studies that have been done seem to point in a clear
direction.

I think the words "seem to point" are the key words. That direction is
that homework, especially in middle and high school improves academic
performance. But, it depends on the culture, kids and school. In
addition, other things, like family, sports and music are important, as
well.

The amount and type of homework that will benefit elementary school
students depends on the family, the kids, the community and the
teachers. In urban communities, often the most successful programs
involve kids doing homework in after school programs that involve kids
doing homework before sports, arts, or other activities. Homework
doesn't work well for kids who live in shelters or don't have a place
to do it. Or with kids who are too busy going to soccer, karote and
dance.

In the case of the at-risk environment, the homework
works not so much through reinforcing the concepts as by
keeping the kid out of trouble.

There are better ways to do this. After school programs, police athletic
leagues and boys and girls clubs come to mind.

That doesn't say much about
the intrinsic educational need for homework. It's also true
that in communities where parents are ready,

and after-school programs and nannies

willing and able
to support heavy homework loads and do significant amounts of
teaching themselves (or hire tutors), kids can make faster
progress through material...at significant opportunity cost
if you believe that a child's education includes more than
academics.

For this to be useful, the kids still need to be challenged in school.
What is the use of learning to add two-digit numbers this evening if
you're going to be bored to death while the rest of the class learns
tomorrow?

On the other hand, I see many seventh graders who are adding
single-digit numbers on their fingers. They need to master simple math
before moving on. This is because of the way math is taught in schools,
not because of kids not doing homework. However, homework is a great way
for kids to get additional practice at skills like simple addition.
While a lot of kids don't have parents or other adults who can help them
with homework (or ensure it gets done), those who do should be enabled
to take advantage of this. Of course, parents can buy workbooks and get
material on the internet to supplement their kids' learning as well.

The bottom line is that there may be reasons
*other* than mastery of a reasonable elementary curriculum
to have elementary homework in particular areas, some of
them even good reasons, but that doesn't really say that
elementary homework is necessary per se.

School is not necessary per se, either. After all, one can learn to
shine shoes for a living.

But, a lot of kids benefit educationally from homework.

Best wishes,
Ericka