Nurse's mistakes may mean child abusers were wrongly convicted

Since The Plant once again, in It's dotage, failed to remember how
important accurate attributed remarks are to the reader following the
discussion I took it upon myself, gentle reader, to leave the post It
replied to.

It's comments, and my response, are below this fully attributed
inclusion I respectfully supplied, and It rudely denied you.

Read on:


(Kane) wrote in message . com...
On 12 May 2004 05:04:55 GMT,
(CrystalRGarcia74) wrote:

Subject: Anser it, Fern! was Nurse's mistakes may mean
child abusers
From: Ivan Gowch
Date: 5/11/2004 12:42 PM US Mountain Standard Time
Message-id:

On 11 May 2004 06:38:41 GMT,
(CrystalRGarcia74) wrote:

[snip]

==That was because they were ABUSED and KILLED not because they
were
SPANKED!

In virtually every case, parents who abuse and/or
kill their children started out by "spanking" them.

You cannot eliminate child abuse without first
eliminating the idea that it is OK for adults to
deliberately hurt children for "correction," under
any circumstances.

That is what is wrong with kids these days

Oddly, other than the usual folly of human beings, you have no proof
for such an accusation. The ancient romans and greeks made similar
comments about their youth too. In fact I doubt, beyond a few very
advanced but sequestered civilizations, that are primitive cultures,
nearly every society has been afraid of youth in this way.

It's kind of dumb...especially when one knows the facts about our
current crop of kids.

and that is why they get away with
the crap that they get away with

The only "crap" I see them getting away with is the same "crap" I and
my buddies got away with in the 50's when I was a kid. Believe it or
not, we drank, smoked (I hear some even smoked weed) and got girls
pregnant every chance we got.

Nice bunch of kids too.

because people like you tell them that they
are being abused!

The truth shall make them free, so the saying goes. It's overdue. Our
own country, at this very moment, is being run by people that have at
least 90% of them coming from families that spank.

It is extremely hard to find a human that was raised kindly without
violence and coersion that is violent themselves. Ever notice that?

I guess a thanks goes out to you and people like you for
*uck*&% up our youth!

No, actually the thanks is due to you and your kind.

It's the "spanked" child that most populates the prisons and mental
health child treatment centers. It also is the "spanked" child that
one finds in out of home foster care because their parents thought
spanking meant something else.

There would be no alt.parenting.spanking ng if it were not for the
ills to humankind derived from the practice of brutal parenting that
is so universal in this and other "civilized" countries.

The problem with spanking is that there is no known level of it, no
matter how gentle, that does not have some risk to the child...and it
certainly is a risk to the perpetrator. It excuses in their mind their
lack of skill and any desire to learn to parent more effectively.

You are welcome to your opinion, but don't kid yourself that spanking
makes children behave without serious consequences to humankind.



--
The danger to the life and well-being of children
increases in direct proportion to their proximity
to religion and its practitioners.
-Ivan Gowch

Those religions that support brutal child parenting are at fault.

Kane

NOTE: Begin the reply here;

On 14 May 2004 15:30:53 GMT, (Fern5827) wrote:

Guess OF never heard of Columbine.

And would the Columbine boys have been unspanked then? What are the
odds, eh?

The only "crap" I see them getting away with is the same "crap" I
and
my buddies got away with in the 50's when I was a kid. Believe it or
not, we drank, smoked (I hear some even smoked weed) and got girls
pregnant every chance we got.

First you recent memory goes,

I have an extraordinary memory...past and present.
For instance I can remember who in this ng has defended the right of
parents to abuse and kill their own children. Can you?

but you remember the past with presumed clarity.

Yes, a rather good memory. I had considerable training in sorting out
fact from large bodies of information and events, witnessed or
researched. Military intelligence training and experience tends to do
that. You don't get to make many mistakes before you are reassigned to
the enlisted messhall. I don't recall much KP...R R R R R

Never heard of the absolutely prevalent trend of Juveniles being
charged as
Adults in many jurisidictions., either.

Sure have. Had a number of discussions with state legislators on the
subject. Yet, you may be right about my memory, because I do NOT
recall any "absolutely" prevalent trend at all. In fact this "trend"
was in place from the 1920's on. And again spiked in the 1940's with
newer legislation that allowed certain crimes by juveniles to be tried
in adult court.

I recall spikes from state to state on the issue.

The ignorance, even of your vaunted leader, The Douggie, on matters of
social political issues is monumental. You twits seem to be completely
uninhibited in your babbling about anything at all that you know
nothing about....such as the "trend" in adult charges against juvinile
offenders.

You yourself are a childishly stupid little creep that has nothing of
merit to say and you are a known associate of criminal minded assholes
that have threatened to kill people.

It's the "spanked" child that most populates the prisons and mental
health child treatment centers. It also is the "spanked" child that
one finds in out of home foster care because their parents thought
spanking meant something else.


Admittedly, that comprises 94% of the US populace.

I have seen, even recently, figures that vary from 98% to as little as
74% or so.

This reliance on data this shakey, to make the spanking argument,
suggests that when you quote it in YOUR favor you might cite the
source so we can see just what group was being surveyed and the
methods.

As our esteemed public Droananator was recently seen to post, "is this
science?" Or words to that effect.

No, Cauliflower, you are no more accurate, logical, or truthful than
you have ever been.

So, going with your 94%, shall we then assume that this terrible rash
of juvenile crime (that doesn't exist....and the Trend that doesn't
exist either since juveniles charged as adults has gone on since the
'20s) is a result of punitive parenting methods?

Or maybe NOT.......

....... if only that other 6% of parents WOULD spank their infants more
often and more severly juvenile crime would be gone forever? R R R R R
R

Or maybe the tots should be suspended and hit with objects, as is the
Parental Right, according to you, or possibly just calmed with
Opiates, as you seem to think was okay since it happened in the
1800's.

More spanking, more, more more, please. Or isn't that your desire,
Daisy?

Kane

how could you say something like that. I personaly am a abused child in
which my abuser was never proscuted due to "neglegent treatment of the
evidence by the hospital staff". And yet still i would not awant a
false positive. Let's come up with a better system that can make
apporpriate determinations as to who is abused and who is not.

--
Daniel Vernon Horner
555 N. Cypress St.
Orange, CA 92867
Cell Phone: 949-254-0633
Nextel Direct Connect: 122*58*60405

http://d.horner.home.att.net/


Carlson LaVonne wrote:

So, your point is what? Nurses make mistakes? Children are sometimes
mistakenly identified as abused?

Improve the system. Vote for more taxes which would allow children to
receive better advocacy.

People make mistakes. Are you willing to allow children to be abused
because an underfunded system makes mistakes?

Guess what. I'll go for false positives any day. Do you even know what
that means, billyf?

LaVonne

billyf wrote:

http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/news/042...cal_nurse.html

By Laura Whitley
ABC13 Eyewitness News
(4/20/04 - HOUSTON) - Wrongly convicted -- that may be the case for
dozens
of child abuse defendants. Potential problems were found in nearly 200
cases, and human error may be to blame.

Prosecutors rely on evidence as gathered at the Children's Assessment
Center
to make strong cases. But now some of that evidence is being questioned.

It's known as a safe haven for sexually abused children. But Harris
County
District Attorney Chuck Rosenthal wants medical assessments of potential
victims made by a nurse at the center's clinic reviewed.

"About 170 or so resulted in criminal charges being filed," said
Rosenthal.
"So we then asked for a peer review in all of those cases."

Robin Howard of the Children's Assessment Center said, "We are very
concerned about what is going on here. And we're certainly here to
provide
any information we can."

The problem was discovered when the DA's office asked a doctor to
review the
nurse's findings while preparing a case for trial back in January.

Rosenthal said, "The doctor came back and said, 'I can't testify to those
facts. I think she made a mistake.' So that caused them to then go
ahead and
check some more of her findings to see if there were, in fact, potential
errors that were spotted."

According to internal Assessment Center emails, more problems were
found. A
memo from a clinic doctor in February said, "I have come across
another of
_______'s charts that contains flaws that could potentially have
repercussions."

Howard explained, "She is not an employee of the Children's Assessment
Center. She was an employee of the University of Texas, who we
contract with
to provide medical services."

The nurse worked in the clinic at the Children's Assessment Center for
about
two years. In that time she handled hundreds of examinations.

Even though the nurse worked for UT, the spokesperson would only say the
university is still gathering information.

Meanwhile, defense attorneys are scrambling to figure out if any of their
clients could be affected.

The nurse stopped working at the clinic in November. And that's when
administration officials at CAC say they first became aware of the
problem.
(Copyright © 2004, KTRK-TV)

As a abused child myself i don't seee how Fern is wrong. I agree that
we need a better system. If the system worked the way it is suppose to
they would have prosucuted my friends father who raped him as a child
rather then harras my friend about sticking his 3 year-old in the corner
for 20 minutes. Which seems like more damaging abuse. Hmmm... Let me
think about that one and get back to you all.

--
Daniel Vernon Horner
555 N. Cypress St.
Orange, CA 92867
Cell Phone: 949-254-0633
Nextel Direct Connect: 122*58*60405

http://d.horner.home.att.net/


Carlson LaVonne wrote:

Fern5827 wrote:

Thanks for posting, Billy.

Guess folks posting on this NG find it funny that folks can be wrongly
convicted and sentenced, based on one person's opinion.


I didn't find anything humorous about the news posting, nor did I read
anything that indicated other found the post humorous either. Who on
this ng found wrongful conviction and sentencing funny? Please support
your statement.


Wonder how many families wrongfully torn apart and how many folks lost
hope? Wonder how many children were separated from their parents?


Do you ever wonder how many children lost hope when they were wrongfully
returned to abusive families. Do you ever wonder how many children were
separated from their parents and did well because of the decision? Do
you ever wonder about how many children die at the hands of their
parents? Do you even care?

Incredible.


Yes, it is incredible. It's incredible that you place so called family
rights over children's rights, and rail against agencies that attempt to
protect children. You do not care about children, Fern. You are out do
destroy a flawed system that does more good than harm -- a flawed system
that could be improved by your vote and your tax dollars. You ignore
the children saved by the system, and post only your propaganda.

Thank you for posting, Fern. You are an advocate for child protection!

LaVonne

I think this postingf misses the point. Just because a parent spanks
their child does not mean that this parent automatically graduates to
abuseing or killing their child. Millions of parents spank their
children without it ever escalating. It the psychos out there that get
off on spanking kids that go beyond it to abuse, etc.

--
Daniel Vernon Horner
555 N. Cypress St.
Orange, CA 92867
Cell Phone: 949-254-0633
Nextel Direct Connect: 122*58*60405

http://d.horner.home.att.net/


CrystalRGarcia74 wrote:

Subject: Anser it, Fern! was Nurse's mistakes may mean child abusers
From: Ivan Gowch
Date: 5/11/2004 12:42 PM US Mountain Standard Time
Message-id:

On 11 May 2004 06:38:41 GMT,
(CrystalRGarcia74) wrote:

[snip]

==That was because they were ABUSED and KILLED not because they were
SPANKED!

In virtually every case, parents who abuse and/or
kill their children started out by "spanking" them.

You cannot eliminate child abuse without first
eliminating the idea that it is OK for adults to
deliberately hurt children for "correction," under
any circumstances.


That is what is wrong with kids these days and that is why they get away with
the crap that they get away with because people like you tell them that they
are being abused! I guess a thanks goes out to you and people like you for
*uck*&% up our youth!



--
The danger to the life and well-being of children
increases in direct proportion to their proximity
to religion and its practitioners.
-Ivan Gowch

On Sat, 15 May 2004 03:23:51 GMT, "Horner, Daniel Vernon"
wrote:

I think this postingf misses the point. Just because a parent spanks
their child does not mean that this parent automatically graduates to
abusing or killing their child.

I do not thnk that was the claim made.

Millions of parents spank their
children without it ever escalating.

And millions have escalated. Poor argument.

It the psychos out there that get
off on spanking kids that go beyond it to abuse, etc.

Sadly you miss the point.

And no, it isn't, despite my wish that were the only population that
did do that. Perfectly sane people kill their children disciplining
them.

The numbers that do go off and over discipline are very high. Many
abusers claim they were just disciplining, with some using it as a
pointeless defense, as their child is recovering or dying in
intensive care, or some sob that they just were disciplining and it
got out of hand.

That millions don't lose it spanking is a very poor argument against
the hundreds of thousands per year that do abuse. How many parents
caught abusing their children do you think admit to abusing rather
than "discipline that got out of hand," or "I didn't know?"

"Yes, your honor, I pounded my child's head against the wall for the
sheer joy of seeing the excruciating pain they were in." Is a highly
unlikely parental response.

Most abuse is an attempt to make the child do something the adult
wants them to do. Often the child can't even do it because of their
developmental limits, yet the "spanking" goes on in this and other
countries.

Think about it.

Kane

On 14 May 2004 15:30:53 GMT, (Fern5827) wrote:

==Guess OF never heard of Columbine.

Once again, Fern avers that the perpetrators of
the Columbine Massacre became killers because
they hadn't been "spanked" enough.

Proving, once again, that Fern is crazy as a
landfill rat.



--
The danger to the life and well-being of children
increases in direct proportion to their proximity
to religion and its practitioners.
-Ivan Gowch

Daniel,

I'm sorry you were an abused child. However, Fern has been on this ng
(alt.parenting.spanking) for a very long time. She has argued for the
protection of parents who allow ministers to hang children by the
rafters and beat them naked. She has supported the practice of feeding
chidren hot pepper and denying liquids...a practice that can result in
severe harm and even death.

Fern hates CPS, not because CPS has failed to protect children. Fern
hates CPS because CPS investigates alleged abuse. Fern hates CPS
because she has had personal issues with CPS investigations,

LaVonne

Horner, Daniel Vernon wrote:

As a abused child myself i don't seee how Fern is wrong. I agree that
we need a better system. If the system worked the way it is suppose to
they would have prosucuted my friends father who raped him as a child
rather then harras my friend about sticking his 3 year-old in the corner
for 20 minutes. Which seems like more damaging abuse. Hmmm... Let me
think about that one and get back to you all.