OT religion and smacking

On Mon, 23 Feb 2004 08:39:58 -0600, "Nikki" wrote:

Linz wrote:

Purely out of interest, why do you have a gun? Serious question - I
know some people keep a gun in the house for self defence in the event
of being burgled, but wouldn't a gun in a safe be a bit hard to get at
in such an event?

I can answer that as a gun owner (well I'm not but dh is). Dh hunts so has
a variety of guns for that. When we lived out in the boonies we used them
for vermin that were scary for one reason or another. My BIL collects guns
though. He has lots of them, including handguns. He hunts and is also a
member at some gun shooting club and so target practices a lot. He's not
crazy or 'off center' either which is what I previously thought of people
that owned so many guns, lol. Well, and the people I knew that owned so
many (I'm sure others did and I didn't know about it) were a bit crazy. The
non-crazy ones probably don't go out of their way to make sure you know! I
wouldn't know BIL did if dh didn't tell me.

Ah, see, I'd forgotten about hunting!
--
Linz
YB: 4 months, 15lbs 14oz

"Linz" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 21 Feb 2004 22:04:14 GMT, "Chotii"
wrote:


"Clisby" wrote in message
...

Nevermind wrote:

If someone has a gun in their house, your kid can get shot with it
there, or that person can take it out of the house, or unwittingly
allow some other dope to do so, thus possibly endangering the rest of
us. Your friend can get shot by her jealous ex-boyfriend, etc. Guns
do
kill people, all too easily.

I don't have to wonder about *someone* having a gun in his/her home; we
have a gun in our home. Yes, what you're saying is theoretically
possible. It is not anything I would lose sleep over.

We have a gun. It is kept locked away in a gun safe.

Purely out of interest, why do you have a gun? Serious question - I
know some people keep a gun in the house for self defence in the event
of being burgled, but wouldn't a gun in a safe be a bit hard to get at
in such an event?

Well, it takes me maybe 30 seconds to get into the gun safe. Probably less.
Might be more if I was shaking with adrenaline.

The one time I had to call 911 (because of a car/motorcycle wreck just
outside the door of the house I was visiting) it took me longer than that to
get through to the 911 operator. I sat there listening to "soothing" music
on hold. The hospital was only about 10 blocks away from that house, and it
took about 5 minutes for the ambulance to show up.

I have no faith whatsoever that the police could show up at my house in 30
seconds. Or even 5 minutes. If 30 seconds isn't enough time (and I can
certainly conceive of situations in which it wouldn't be), then it's a sure
thing the police couldn't help me. And I'm a firm believer in helping myself
regardless. You know, call the cops, and then "hold the fort" until they
show up. What if it was 20 minutes? What if the cops *never* showed up?
It's not inconceivable.

Of course, this is all speculation; you may even think it borders on
paranoia. We've been blessed to live in a very peaceful area. I don't
anticipate ever having to actually get the safe open and use the contents
for their intended purpose. But that's not the point. The point is, if I
*had* to, I could. I have 4 small little girls in this house. I would have
no hesitation (given the right circumstances) to defend them with deadly
force. I would hate to be in that situation and have no recourse beyond
calling 911 and hoping help could come in time.

I understand things are different in, for example, Denmark. Also the UK, and
Australia. I don't know what those folks do when placed in such a situation.
I also don't care. They're not responsible for the safety and welfare of my
children. I am. So, we own a gun (and I know how to use it, and have all the
necessary paperwork for its legality, and make gun safety a regular part of
our weekly or monthly routine, right along with teaching the kids our phone
number and address, and we have a gun safe).

I call that peace of mind.

--angela

"Ellie" wrote in message
...
Simply making guns illegal doesn't make crime go away. And not just in
America - see
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/e...lk/3009769.stm - this
fellow's house was burgled so many times that he used an (illegal) gun
and
shot somebody to death. He is now in prison, because "The parole
board...has
continually refused him early release - saying he has shown no remorse
and
would continue to pose a danger to any other burglars."

This guy is no longer in prison and if you read the article you will note
that he shot the burglar in the BACK as he was leaving the property - this
was not self defense it was revenge because he was sick of being burgled
and
this was why he was locked up by the UK justice system,which does allow
for
a legitimate defence of self defence (providing you use reasonable force).

As a furhter note the last thing I heard about Tony Martin on the UK news
was that he had been arrested for vehicle registration theft ......

Not so squeaky clean after all ...

So the guy's an idiot. Does this change the fact that his house was being
burgled on a regular basis? Does it change the fact that a LOT of crime in
the UK is now being committed with (illegal) guns against a (legally)
disarmed populace? No. Do you think there's some chance that burglars would
think twice before busting into somebody's house if there was a very real
chance he was (legally) armed? I think so. But the burglars *know* their
victims are helpless. Except Tony Martin wasn't so helpless. Stupid, yes,
very stupid...but not helpless. I'll bet that poor kid he shot would have
stayed home that night, and lived, if he'd known what he was walking into.
Instead, he was breaking into somebody's house to steal his stuff.

I just don't understand why people will stand for being rendered unable to
defend themselves and their property. I just don't get it.

--angela

(KC) wrote in message . com...


Even if this is true, I still think the benefits outweigh the risks
because where upstanding people legally own guns crime rates are
reduced. I am more worried about an external threat than an internal
threat at this point as I know my dh and I aren't going to kill
ourselves and we make sure the girls don't have access to our guns.

Whereas my friend and her husband also never worried about such a
thing. They were 'responsible' gun owners. Until one day he flipped
out and pulled the gun on her and their 2 yr old son. Fortunately she
managed to call 911, as he was only _threatening_ to kill himself and
them. She, nor anyone who knew the two of them could have seen a
warning. They were perfect, responsible, seemingly well adjusted
people.

More often than not, gun related violence is due to circumstances such
as this.

"Chotii" skrev i en meddelelse
...
I understand things are different in, for example, Denmark. Also the UK,
and
Australia. I don't know what those folks do when placed in such a
situation.
I also don't care. They're not responsible for the safety and welfare of
my
children. I am. So, we own a gun (and I know how to use it, and have all
the
necessary paperwork for its legality, and make gun safety a regular part
of
our weekly or monthly routine, right along with teaching the kids our
phone
number and address, and we have a gun safe).

For one thing - the nabour is never farther away than you can see him - most
people live in cities, where you can shout for help. In my nabourhood I
believe the nabour would come if I shouted. It may be why I can't see the
reason for guns.

What I originally reacted to was the hitting as part of upbringing. In my
head I connected it to guns and death penalty - it may not be so for other
people.

Tine, Denmark

So the guy's an idiot. Does this change the fact that his house was being
burgled on a regular basis? Does it change the fact that a LOT of crime in
the UK is now being committed with (illegal) guns against a (legally)
disarmed populace? No. Do you think there's some chance that burglars
would
think twice before busting into somebody's house if there was a very real
chance he was (legally) armed? I think so. But the burglars *know* their
victims are helpless. Except Tony Martin wasn't so helpless. Stupid, yes,
very stupid...but not helpless. I'll bet that poor kid he shot would have
stayed home that night, and lived, if he'd known what he was walking into.
Instead, he was breaking into somebody's house to steal his stuff.

I just don't understand why people will stand for being rendered unable to
defend themselves and their property. I just don't get it.

--angela


But people can keep guns legally in this country, it's just not as common as
the US. I just don't see anything that shows that someone is less likely to
commit a crime if they thought they could get shot doing it. Surely that
would mean that in the US where guns seem to be more common and more readily
accepted there would be a much lower crime rate and that seems not to be the
case but I confess I have no statistics either way.

It's the same way that a death sentence doesn't appear to stop people
committing murder. Just my take on things ...

Ellie

wrote:

I have never in my grown up life
seen a child playing with dolls hit a doll and say: 'bad, bad doll' or the
like.

In a play situation I've seen dolls get *much* worse treatment than that.
"You're bad, I'm going to throw you on top of the house," that kind of thing.
It wouldn't usually occur to me that it was anything but ordinary childish
tyranny and self-assertion.

Though, come to think of it, my own kids are so un-doll-minded that I don't get
much chance to overheard this sort of play.

--Helen

"Ellie" wrote in message
...
But people can keep guns legally in this country, it's just not as common
as
the US. I just don't see anything that shows that someone is less likely
to
commit a crime if they thought they could get shot doing it. Surely that
would mean that in the US where guns seem to be more common and more
readily
accepted there would be a much lower crime rate and that seems not to be
the
case but I confess I have no statistics either way.

I also have no statistics, but according to my husband (who's no expert
either, but he does work in law enforcement...) burglary and breaking and
entering and not as common in the US as they are in the UK. Maybe due to the
fear of homeowners with guns, maybe not.

He has also always commented on how common burglar alarms are in the UK.
They're quite unusual around here, and only normally on homes with a lot to
lose. So that kind of supports the theory that burglary is more common in
the UK.

It's the same way that a death sentence doesn't appear to stop people
committing murder. Just my take on things ...

Murder seems to me a little different. I think, on the whole, people who
commit murders are of a totally different mindset than people who steal.
They often seem to lack judgement, or are not thinking straight, for various
reasons, and maybe don't think through the consequences of their actions.
Thieves and burglars, I would expect, mostly know what they're doing and
will only do it if they're pretty sure they can get away with it. Stealing
from your average householder is not really worth risking your life over,
whereas maybe wreaking vengeance on your spouse's lover is (or seems like it
is at the time).

I tend to be a little on the fence with this argument. I don't really like
guns, but my husband carries one for work, so obviously, we have one in the
house. I never used to think I could shoot someone if they broke in, but now
that I have a baby, I think I'm more likely to. Does that make any sense?

Lucy

Lucy ) wrote:

burglary and breaking and
entering and not as common in the US as they are in the UK. Maybe due to the
fear of homeowners with guns, maybe not.

Britain's had something of a crime wave in recent years, though, per
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...1/ncrime01.xml .
The US has certainly been ahead in crimes per capita at other times.

I think the history of Prohibition and the subsequent rise of a large criminal
class (who pretty much turned to drug selling after liquor was legalized again)
may have an awful lot to do with the culture of crime and petty violence in the
US, and the UK is now doing some catch-up.

--Helen

"Nikki" wrote in message ...
Irene wrote:

So far, ds (age 2.5) has never been spanked. We asked him the other
day, and he had no idea what the word "spanking" meant, in fact! I
definitely think that spanking him would just open up the idea that
hitting is ok, which I'm trying to discourage.

I think I said somewhere else that I spanked Hunter twice. He was at least
3 the first time and he was over 4 the second. His grandma one time asked
him if he wanted a spanking. He perked up and said 'Whats that' like it
might be some kind of special rare treat :-)

I can just picture it! ;-)

When I did spank him he
started to cry and scream...You hit me You hit me :-( :-( It was aweful.
I gave two open handed swats on the butt. Luke is a different personality
(and I can definatly get pushed to the end of my rope easier with the two of
them because they interact with each other and can totally ignore me) so he
is only 2.5 now and been spanked three times :-( Twice was over this
aweful biting phase that I just couldn't figure out how to curb. Thankfully
they don't seem to have come to the conclusion that it is OK to hit as they
don't do much of that to each other at all.

A few thoughts on this...First, it's a big priority to me not to model
hitting with Thomas simply because hitting is one of the things that
we are trying hard to stop. So, even though I've never come close to
spanking him for hitting, I want to make sure I don't do it. I
probably get pushed to my limits by him most often when he doesn't
want a diaper change, actually. I have actually screamed at him
loudly enough that he has started screaming and crying. I console
myself by thinking that at least if, when he gets older, if he screams
at me, I'm a lot less likely to get hurt than if he decides to hit me.

When I was small and played house, I spanked my dolls. Everyone I know did
that, but then 34 years ago I bet most girls I knew were spanked by their
parents. Tine if you are reading....I bet little girls in Denmark don't do
that huh?

I don't remember spanking my dolls, but I do know I got spanked. Not
very often, or very hard. Interestingly, Thomas has started giving
his toys timeouts!

Irene