MA - Deadbeat hysteria

"Moon Shyne" wrote in message
...

"Dusty" wrote in message
...
Would someone else (please!!) care to make an attempt to enlighten LLL
of
the information that the rest of us seem to be able to grasp, but keeps
eluding him/her like Roadrunner does Wile E. Coyote.

I've lost all patience with him/her and can no longer stand to keep
repeating what so many of us out here lived through and are still
experiencing as NCPs over and over again to him/her.

Thank you.

What is so difficult for you to understand? Those of us who also have to
work and raise the children and have to pay dollars for their care and
upkeep - some of us find it straining the boundaries of credibility for
anyone to claim that they have not so much as a single dollar to
contribute
to the support of their child(ren) - if you have dollars to pay rent,
utilities, food, gasoline, car, clothing, smokes, beer and all the rest,
why
can you not contribute so much as a dollar towards your kidsfor years and
years and years? You have yet to answer this simple question. How do you
pay NOTHING for years on end?


I'm not picking on Dusty, but have to say something...

An example of what is being said is like my step-children's mother claiming
she has $140/month for purchase gas and food. It is a claim she used when
"justifying" to my husband why she shouldn't pay anything in child support.
The truth is she and her live-in boyfriend go out drinking every Friday
night and both of them smoke. She dumps the kids off at other people's
homes for at least one of the two nights she has them (these kids have no
choice), nor does she feed them at least three meals a day when she does
have them. More often than not they come home unfed and hungry because they
hadn't ate since breakfast or the day before, and she is bringing them back
after 4 pm! By my calculations she isn't even spending $40/month on them
directly. On top of that she complains to the kids about our spending
habits on them by saying we spend too much on them. In my opinion it is
none of her business how much we spend because we're not asking her to
contribute half, etc... my gosh a whole $322/year is nothing compared to
actual costs - even for a child living in poverty!


Thanks,
Tracy
~~~~
http://www.hornschuch.net/tracy/

Are the children "suffering" financially? Absolutely not.

Based on my life experience children do suffer harm when they are not
supported by their parents CP or NCP. This not simply a loss of
lifestyle or the inability to go to Disneyland.

Personally, I went hungry while my father bought an expensive truck.
As an adult I have the control to insure, absent a major calamity, that
I will NOT be hungry. But as a kid I was powerless.

Sometimes the damage is permanent.

Just today I had to sit my butt down in the dentist's chair yet once
again to fix up yet more of my extensive dental work. Most of the
damge to my teeth did NOT occur after I was on my own. I have had one
small cavity since then. My mother simply could NOT afford dental
care and thus the damage to the teeth was much worse than if I had
regular dental care. Just to be clear, my father was NOT poor, was not
unemployed, though he tried that once or twice to reduce his CS; that
judge was not buying either.

Just in case you think this was somehow my mother's fault (many things
are, but not this one), he did the same to the second family he formed
but even worse, as my step-mother actually made sure that some of the
money was paid to my mother. He drove a successful business into the
ground likely so he would not have to compensate her for her lawful
share. He NEVER paid any support to those children unless threatened
with jail. Amazingly he would show up to court with a high priced
attorney and when he lost his bid to escape the consequences, he paid
the arrears in 48 hours.

I DO disagree with DUSTY. There is not an able-bodied NCP who can not
work even a day and send their kids some money.

If OSE uses any payment to track you down, pay with a money order with
either no return address or used a Postal mail box service. HELP YOUR
CHILDREN.

NONE of these aggravated NCPs, who whine and whine and whine about how
impoverished they are. has resonded to the question of why pay NOTHING.
or How it is possible for an abled bodied person to work for not a
single day for YEARS? They just complain that it is unfair; they seem
to think this justifies not working and not paying their child
anything.

None responded to my suggestions for reform acknowdging that the system
is unfair. It seems that some NCPs thiank that the unfairness of the
system is an excuse for paying NOTHING.

None have told tails of how they are working their butts off and still
can not meet their obligation. It does happen.

So I ahve to acknowledge that the discussion seems futile.

In most cases in life, but not all, there is more than one factor cause
a difficulty. But if a person thinks that they need do nothing, the
problem is unlikely to be solved.

If you don;t care about your kids, have some enlightened self interest.
This debt WILL follow you. Everything you can do to reduce it can
only help you.

"Tracy" wrote in message
...

[snip]

I'm not picking on Dusty, but have to say something...

An example of what is being said is like my step-children's mother
claiming
she has $140/month for purchase gas and food. It is a claim she used when
"justifying" to my husband why she shouldn't pay anything in child
support.
The truth is she and her live-in boyfriend go out drinking every Friday
night and both of them smoke. She dumps the kids off at other people's
homes for at least one of the two nights she has them (these kids have no
choice), nor does she feed them at least three meals a day when she does
have them. More often than not they come home unfed and hungry because
they
hadn't ate since breakfast or the day before, and she is bringing them
back
after 4 pm! By my calculations she isn't even spending $40/month on them
directly. On top of that she complains to the kids about our spending
habits on them by saying we spend too much on them. In my opinion it is
none of her business how much we spend because we're not asking her to
contribute half, etc... my gosh a whole $322/year is nothing compared to
actual costs - even for a child living in poverty!


Thanks,
Tracy
~~~~
http://www.hornschuch.net/tracy/

I hear ya Tracy. And no offence taken. In fact, I agree, for the most
part, in what you said. I also agreed with Trip-L that NCPs should send
what they can. The part I take exception to (Trip-L) is that the argument
does not allow for (as a great many of state C$ guidelines do not allow for)
the NCPs continued cost of living, i.e., the idea of sending anything and
everything you have to CSE without allowing yourself a certain level of
survivability is just pure nuts.

For example.. The MA C$ guidelines allow the CP to write off $20k (until
recently it was $15k) for keeping the bare essentials - food, clothing,
transportation and a place to live. Yet, these same guidelines do -NOT-
allow the NCP to do the same. Nor do, in my experience, judges allow for
things like a poor economy, lack of employment in one's field, loss of a
job, the CP earning vastly more then the NCP, etc. to bear, in any fashion,
in the determination of C$ awards - much less allow for a reduction for C$
because of the aforementioned or other circumstances beyond one's control.

You can all thank the Bradley Amendment for tying the hands of judges at the
Federal level for not allowing reductions in C$.

Also, the routinely invoked imputed income ploy, used by judges to jack up
C$ awards for the sake of looking good for their cronies, is biased and
illegal. The very idea of imputed income, income not based on any factual
evidence that the NCP could ever even find such a job make so much money, is
repugnant. When a judge imputes an NCPs income, that judge is rolling the
dice for the NCP and is safe in the knowledge that they are doomed to
failure. It's a setup for disaster, an excuse just waiting to be used to
impose even harsher penalties upon the NCP the moment they fail to produce
the courts ordered payments. That's not to say that it'll happen right that
moment. No, it can take a few months, years perhaps, but the courts know
that eventually something will cause the NCP to hit a bump in the employment
road and then they've got 'em right where they want them.

And further "failure to comply" can, and will result in jail for failure to
come up with this imputed money. It's commonly called extortion. But the
courts do it all the time and get away with it with impunity. And all this
is in our children's best interest??????

"LLL" wrote in message
oups.com...
Are the children "suffering" financially? Absolutely not.

Based on my life experience children do suffer harm when they are not
supported by their parents CP or NCP. This not simply a loss of
lifestyle or the inability to go to Disneyland.

Personally, I went hungry while my father bought an expensive truck.
As an adult I have the control to insure, absent a major calamity, that
I will NOT be hungry. But as a kid I was powerless.


Not all children experienced what you experienced. I tend to believe that
most people will step in and take care of their own children, or they have
families who will help. You should also look at it this way - just because
a CP receives child support does not mean the child will be fed. Also,
just because a child is raised in an intact household does not mean the
child will be fed. There are no absolutes, and there will always be the
exceptions.

My real concern in your personal experiences is this - what did your mother
do to put food on the table or take you to the dentist? I grew up without a
father in the home. My mother worked multiple jobs at times to put food on
the table and afford the basic care for her daughters. At times she
received help from family member in terms of clothing, but she did not
receive child support. Once she had to apply for food stamps and we were on
it for a very short period of time (about 2-3 months). I'm not putting
aside the fact that your father should have stepped up and provided for his
children, but speaking from experience of a mother who was single for 19.5
years before remarrying - my children came first and they did not go hungry
nor were they not cared for in terms of health care.

Thanks,
Tracy
~~~~
http://www.hornschuch.net/tracy/

"Dusty" wrote in message
...
"Tracy" wrote in message
...

[snip]

I'm not picking on Dusty, but have to say something...

An example of what is being said is like my step-children's mother
claiming
she has $140/month for purchase gas and food. It is a claim she used
when
"justifying" to my husband why she shouldn't pay anything in child
support.
The truth is she and her live-in boyfriend go out drinking every Friday
night and both of them smoke. She dumps the kids off at other people's
homes for at least one of the two nights she has them (these kids have
no
choice), nor does she feed them at least three meals a day when she does
have them. More often than not they come home unfed and hungry because
they
hadn't ate since breakfast or the day before, and she is bringing them
back
after 4 pm! By my calculations she isn't even spending $40/month on
them
directly. On top of that she complains to the kids about our spending
habits on them by saying we spend too much on them. In my opinion it is
none of her business how much we spend because we're not asking her to
contribute half, etc... my gosh a whole $322/year is nothing compared to
actual costs - even for a child living in poverty!


Thanks,
Tracy
~~~~
http://www.hornschuch.net/tracy/

I hear ya Tracy. And no offence taken. In fact, I agree, for the most
part, in what you said. I also agreed with Trip-L that NCPs should send
what they can. The part I take exception to (Trip-L) is that the argument
does not allow for (as a great many of state C$ guidelines do not allow
for)
the NCPs continued cost of living, i.e., the idea of sending anything and
everything you have to CSE without allowing yourself a certain level of
survivability is just pure nuts.

Thank you - I knew you were not unreasonable. The key factor is that
parents should act responsible, be reasonable, and look at things
realistically. More times than not one parent will be taking on more of the
financial care of their child(ren) than the other parent unless everything
was equal. That can be applied to intact families as well as divorced
families.

And further "failure to comply" can, and will result in jail for failure
to
come up with this imputed money. It's commonly called extortion. But the
courts do it all the time and get away with it with impunity. And all
this
is in our children's best interest??????

No it is not in the children's best interest to jail a parent when the
parent is trying or is completely unable.


Thanks,
Tracy
~~~~
http://www.hornschuch.net/tracy/

"Tracy" wrote in message
...

"LLL" wrote in message
oups.com...
Are the children "suffering" financially? Absolutely not.

Based on my life experience children do suffer harm when they are not
supported by their parents CP or NCP. This not simply a loss of
lifestyle or the inability to go to Disneyland.

Personally, I went hungry while my father bought an expensive truck.
As an adult I have the control to insure, absent a major calamity, that
I will NOT be hungry. But as a kid I was powerless.


Not all children experienced what you experienced. I tend to believe that
most people will step in and take care of their own children, or they have
families who will help. You should also look at it this way - just
because
a CP receives child support does not mean the child will be fed. Also,
just because a child is raised in an intact household does not mean the
child will be fed. There are no absolutes, and there will always be the
exceptions.

My real concern in your personal experiences is this - what did your
mother
do to put food on the table or take you to the dentist? I grew up without
a
father in the home. My mother worked multiple jobs at times to put food
on
the table and afford the basic care for her daughters. At times she
received help from family member in terms of clothing, but she did not
receive child support. Once she had to apply for food stamps and we were
on
it for a very short period of time (about 2-3 months). I'm not putting
aside the fact that your father should have stepped up and provided for
his
children, but speaking from experience of a mother who was single for 19.5
years before remarrying - my children came first and they did not go
hungry
nor were they not cared for in terms of health care.

Also speaking from experience, some portion of moms, when faced with limited
resources, will tend to the children's health and dental care, at the
expense of their own.



Thanks,
Tracy
~~~~
http://www.hornschuch.net/tracy/

"Tracy" wrote in message
...

[snip]

I've often wondered at the idea of running for office, at least at the state
level, and attempt to turn things around. But I just don't see that
happening because of my current situation.

I'd love to get into the state legislature and beat the hell out of these
Dudley Do-Rights who clamor for more laws against deadbroke parents. I'd
really enjoy it. Because defeating a lie with the truth is a very
comforting thing.

LLL wrote:

I guess my point is that you have paid, even though you are behind.

No one has explained how a non-disabled person (not in jail either) can
pay zero dollars for years and years and years.

I HAVE seen this happen, with not just poor parents but middle and
upper class people as well.

I think that if they are garnishing your wages at 85% that either
violates the statute or the statute should be changed. Contact your
legislature; they all have email addresses. I would suggest that you
stick to one narrow issue or two. If you go on and on about the system
you will harm your credibility.

This is part of the problem. The system is so kook-whacked that there
is no way to discuss it without "going on and on".


It also strains credibility that a non-disabled person would have
absolutely no income for years and years and years.

Tell that to thousands of unemployed CP welfare mooms like my ex. Five
years and counting. She has no incentive to work (though I know karma
will bite her in the ass once the CS stops flowing in 12 years).

- Ron ^*^

LLL wrote:

Are the children "suffering" financially? Absolutely not.


Based on my life experience children do suffer harm when they are not
supported by their parents CP or NCP. This not simply a loss of
lifestyle or the inability to go to Disneyland.

Personally, I went hungry while my father bought an expensive truck.
As an adult I have the control to insure, absent a major calamity, that
I will NOT be hungry. But as a kid I was powerless.

Sometimes the damage is permanent.

Just today I had to sit my butt down in the dentist's chair yet once
again to fix up yet more of my extensive dental work. Most of the
damge to my teeth did NOT occur after I was on my own. I have had one
small cavity since then. My mother simply could NOT afford dental
care and thus the damage to the teeth was much worse than if I had
regular dental care. Just to be clear, my father was NOT poor, was not
unemployed, though he tried that once or twice to reduce his CS; that
judge was not buying either.

Just in case you think this was somehow my mother's fault (many things
are, but not this one), he did the same to the second family he formed
but even worse, as my step-mother actually made sure that some of the
money was paid to my mother. He drove a successful business into the
ground likely so he would not have to compensate her for her lawful
share. He NEVER paid any support to those children unless threatened
with jail. Amazingly he would show up to court with a high priced
attorney and when he lost his bid to escape the consequences, he paid
the arrears in 48 hours.

I DO disagree with DUSTY. There is not an able-bodied NCP who can not
work even a day and send their kids some money.

I think both you and Dusty have good points. Personally, for all the
abuse I have suffered at the hands of "the system" (and compared to many
others, it hasn't been all that much), I have always managed to send my
ex her CS payment in full and on time (or at least on time enough --
within a week, and early far more often than late).

Someone who sends NOTHING is setting themself up for trouble -- but I
don't think the solution to such people is to set up a 900 pound legal
gorilla or war machine to beat the **** out of them for the rest of
their lives and keep them down in the mud, either. That's foolish. Who
does it help? Does it really help the kids to set their father up to be
jailed over and over because of a mountain of debt and interest that he
can never get out from under? I don't see how.

I *do* see how the State just might benefit financially from keeping
someone in its clutches for a long, long time, especially if they can be
shorn to produce more money that it costs to shear them.

Dusty has a point in that there are "manufactured" deadbeats, where the
court uses mathemagics to fabricate an arrearage (this has happened to
me). And there are NCPs who are "surprised" ten or twenty years after a
birth, and suddenly slapped with a huge arrearage and obligation that
makes it literally impossible to keep up with all of their bills (no one
plans on having 20%+ of their pre-tax income lopped off for the next ten
years). These people are thrown into the same pile as those who just
decide not to pay for ten years, and treated to the same beating by the
900-pound gorilla who seems to exist just to keep them down and keep the
arrearages mounting. This is awful, and should be an embarrassment to
the State, but too many people are willing to look the other way or
assume that all the "dead-beats" are fatherscum who kicked their kids to
the curb so they could go get laid in Brazil.


If OSE uses any payment to track you down, pay with a money order with
either no return address or used a Postal mail box service. HELP YOUR
CHILDREN.

NONE of these aggravated NCPs, who whine and whine and whine about how
impoverished they are. has resonded to the question of why pay NOTHING.
or How it is possible for an abled bodied person to work for not a
single day for YEARS? They just complain that it is unfair; they seem
to think this justifies not working and not paying their child
anything.

None responded to my suggestions for reform acknowdging that the system
is unfair. It seems that some NCPs thiank that the unfairness of the
system is an excuse for paying NOTHING.

None have told tails of how they are working their butts off and still
can not meet their obligation. It does happen.

Those people probably lack web access.


So I ahve to acknowledge that the discussion seems futile.

In most cases in life, but not all, there is more than one factor cause
a difficulty. But if a person thinks that they need do nothing, the
problem is unlikely to be solved.

If you don;t care about your kids, have some enlightened self interest.
This debt WILL follow you. Everything you can do to reduce it can
only help you.

I agree to a point. When the court fabricated my arrearage, I paid the
fabricated arrearage. I have spent time on and off over the last two
years trying to get some concrete proof of where the arrearage came
from, and it is a chase after smoke. Someone made it up. It was wrong.
I paid just to get out of the awful clutches of the system, but I
should not have had to. It doesn't make what happened "OK".

- Ron ^*^

"LLL" wrote in

I do not believe that an able bodied person has any excuse for paying
NOTHING for years and years on end, as some NCPs have done (but not
you). Tell me what justifies justifies this?

What makes anyone think they can predict the future or assume all Americans
have the same opportunity to succeed?

The greater majority of employed Dead Broke Dads earn less than $20,000/yr.

Here's the excuse, no one is guaranteed a good income despite their best
efforts.
At minimal expenses of $700/mth for rent, $100 for Utilities, $150 for car
fuel, another $50/mth for Auto insurance if their really lucky enough to own
an old wreck that works, $300 for food.

The true reality is the American standard of living is in a state of
decline, costs have sky rocketed while wages have not risen in decades. Many
people who earned $10/hr in the 70's are still working for that same basic
wage or less today.

It's not going to get any better any time soon!