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Kid going away with friends



 
 
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  #21  
Old August 24th 04, 02:36 PM
Nevermind
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This is the 3rd time I've tried responding to this post; hope to see
it posted this time!

"Rosalie B." wrote in message
. ..
If we weren't going to allow him to go, then there was no

point in
getting his opinion. Only if we felt we would allow him would we then
consult him and let him decide whether or not to go. However, I did
tell him after it was decided once and for all that he wasn't going
that he had been invited. He was angry with us. sigh

I don't blame him a bit. And actually his dad should have told him
since it was his dad that didn't let him go. There's no point in your
taking the heat. He should have to justify himself to his kid.


True.

The only reason I can think of NOT to do it that way is if you are
afraid that this will be another in a long line of unreasonablenesses
which will eventually drive the father and son apart.


Nah.

By the way, I don't see my DH's feeling about this as out-of-line
unreasonable in a way that is potentially damaging to my son or their
relationship. I think I would have been OK with allowing my son to go,
if he
had decided he wanted to (but I would have hated him being away and in
others' care for so long). But I think this was a Big Thing and most
definitely not an obvious "yes." As hard as it may be for some here to
believe, I do know a few seemingly normal people who are "further out"
than
we (well, my DH) are about their kids being in others' care for
overnights
or longer.

I think there's always a reason to get a 9-yo's
opinion about something that may or may not
impact their lives, even if it turns out that
it doesn't. One big reason is that it means
you trust and value his opinions. I think the
message you just sent your son is that what
he thinks and feels is irrelevant as far as
planning his life.


It won't work that way. His opinions and feelings are freely shared
and
taken quite seriously around here. However, we reserve the right to
still
make certain decisions for him. There are and will continue for years
to be
some issues about which he will not be able to decide for himself.

To put his anger in context, that same day, he was also angry with me
for
not allowing him to go to the pool even though he had a very bad, deep
cut
that was not yet scabbed over. I sure felt badly for him, and told him
so,
but I simply could not allow him to make the decision in this case. I
don't
see his anger over the pool as being any different than his anger over
the
trip. Both were short-lived, by the way.

A good question would be:
at what age do his feelings/thoughts become
relevant and important?


His feelings about this and every other issue are relevant and
important,
but in some cases, such as this one, they are not the deciding factor
or
even one of the deciding factors in whether or not he is *allowed* to
go.
(Of course, if we had decided it was *OK* for him to go, then he could
have
decided if he *wanted* to go.)

Scott DD 11 and DS 8


Actually, what struck me about this is that you didn't ask his opinion,
or even offer to let him tell you his thoughts before you decided -- but
told him AFTER you'd decided he couldn't go that he'd been invited and
the answer was no!

What was the point of telling him about it after you had decided he
couldn't go? That just sounds mean -- unless I'm misunderstanding your
post, and you know he DID know about the invitation.


I told him because I'm assuming he will find out about the invitation
the
next time he sees the boy. I felt it would have been mean to tell him
*before* we had decided whether it was even an option. I don't get
that
logic. Would you bring out candy to your kids and say, "So, I'm
thinking of
letting you have some candy. Uh, no, I've decided you can't. YANK."
Now,
THAT sounds mean to me. Better to decide first whether or not they can
have
the candy and then bring it out if they're allowed. They can then
refuse if
they want.

In which case I'm
surprised he wasn't lobbying, even without you asking his opinion on the
matter; I know my kids would not have been shy about letting me know
what they thought.


Yes I completely agree. Although if the other mom did as I think I
would prefer, she would have gone to the parents first, and possibly
since school is out, the other kid might not have actually told the
kid of the OP.


This isn't a school friend. I'm sure my son will see this boy within a
week.

And the flaw I see in the post about the dream about running out of
fuel is --- why didn't you take some precautions not to run out of
fuel? Like not going as far, or taking extra.


Just to clarify: I am the OP, but not the person who used a dream to
make a
decision. That's not my MO.

  #22  
Old August 24th 04, 04:33 PM
Scott
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Nevermind wrote:
This is the 3rd time I've tried responding to this post; hope to see
it posted this time!



What was the point of telling him about it after you had decided he
couldn't go? That just sounds mean -- unless I'm misunderstanding your
post, and you know he DID know about the invitation.



I told him because I'm assuming he will find out
about the invitation the next time he sees the boy.
I felt it would have been mean to tell him *before*
we had decided whether it was even an option. I don't
get that logic. Would you bring out candy to your kids
and say, "So, I'm thinking of letting you have some candy.
Uh, no, I've decided you can't. YANK." Now, THAT sounds
mean to me. Better to decide first whether or not they can
have the candy and then bring it out if they're allowed.
They can then refuse if they want.


Well, it seems to me the two things are completely
different. For a BIG decision, like going away, I
think it helps kids to see how you decide whether
they can or cannot do something. They'll get a
feel for those things that you think are important,
and how you evaluate options and come to make
decisions. They can also learn how to argue a
case. I think those are important skills to
learn. In your case, your child could have learned
about trusting 'gut' feelings over more tangible
arguments. Or they just could've learned about
'Because we're your parents and say so', which I
guess is what he learned here. Seeing the decision
process ongoing is more valuable than talking about
it afterwards, IMO. That seems to be where we
differ.

For trivial things like candy, well, on the rare occasions
when we have candy in the house, and DD or DS ask
if they can have some [they still ask -- wonder how
long that will last ], the first thing I ask
is when they last had candy, when they last ate,
are they really hungry, or just bored. Really, I
can be quite the inquisitor. But they need to
have a good reason, although sometimes 'Just because
I want some' does work. But at least they know
how my convoluted evaluation system works candy

Scott DD 11 and DS 8

  #23  
Old August 25th 04, 01:34 PM
Nevermind
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Scott wrote

Well, it seems to me the two things are completely
different. For a BIG decision, like going away, I
think it helps kids to see how you decide whether
they can or cannot do something. They'll get a
feel for those things that you think are important,
and how you evaluate options and come to make
decisions. They can also learn how to argue a
case. I think those are important skills to
learn. In your case, your child could have learned
about trusting 'gut' feelings over more tangible
arguments. Or they just could've learned about
'Because we're your parents and say so', which I
guess is what he learned here.


Not at all; I didn't give "because we said so" as the reason; I told
him the real reasons. To me, what you are suggesting sounds like a
mean game: let the kid argue his big case, even though there's no
chance he can win it. Why raise his hopes?

Seeing the decision
process ongoing is more valuable than talking about
it afterwards, IMO. That seems to be where we
differ.


I do think it's educational to know what factors went into a decision,
but I don't think it matters *when* the child learns what the factors
were --when the process is being decided or afterward. And any benefit
that might accrue would be outweighed, for me, by the added pain that
would have been inflicted on him by having to wait around biting his
fingernails, only to be disappointed.

  #24  
Old August 25th 04, 01:36 PM
dragonlady
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article ,
(Nevermind) wrote:

This is the 3rd time I've tried responding to this post; hope to see
it posted this time!

"Rosalie B." wrote in message
. ..
If we weren't going to allow him to go, then there was no

point in
getting his opinion. Only if we felt we would allow him would we then
consult him and let him decide whether or not to go. However, I did
tell him after it was decided once and for all that he wasn't going
that he had been invited. He was angry with us. sigh

I don't blame him a bit. And actually his dad should have told him
since it was his dad that didn't let him go. There's no point in your
taking the heat. He should have to justify himself to his kid.


True.

The only reason I can think of NOT to do it that way is if you are
afraid that this will be another in a long line of unreasonablenesses
which will eventually drive the father and son apart.


Nah.

By the way, I don't see my DH's feeling about this as out-of-line
unreasonable in a way that is potentially damaging to my son or their
relationship. I think I would have been OK with allowing my son to go,
if he
had decided he wanted to (but I would have hated him being away and in
others' care for so long). But I think this was a Big Thing and most
definitely not an obvious "yes." As hard as it may be for some here to
believe, I do know a few seemingly normal people who are "further out"
than
we (well, my DH) are about their kids being in others' care for
overnights
or longer.

I think there's always a reason to get a 9-yo's
opinion about something that may or may not
impact their lives, even if it turns out that
it doesn't. One big reason is that it means
you trust and value his opinions. I think the
message you just sent your son is that what
he thinks and feels is irrelevant as far as
planning his life.


It won't work that way. His opinions and feelings are freely shared
and
taken quite seriously around here. However, we reserve the right to
still
make certain decisions for him. There are and will continue for years
to be
some issues about which he will not be able to decide for himself.

To put his anger in context, that same day, he was also angry with me
for
not allowing him to go to the pool even though he had a very bad, deep
cut
that was not yet scabbed over. I sure felt badly for him, and told him
so,
but I simply could not allow him to make the decision in this case. I
don't
see his anger over the pool as being any different than his anger over
the
trip. Both were short-lived, by the way.

A good question would be:
at what age do his feelings/thoughts become
relevant and important?


His feelings about this and every other issue are relevant and
important,
but in some cases, such as this one, they are not the deciding factor
or
even one of the deciding factors in whether or not he is *allowed* to
go.
(Of course, if we had decided it was *OK* for him to go, then he could
have
decided if he *wanted* to go.)

Scott DD 11 and DS 8


Actually, what struck me about this is that you didn't ask his opinion,
or even offer to let him tell you his thoughts before you decided -- but
told him AFTER you'd decided he couldn't go that he'd been invited and
the answer was no!

What was the point of telling him about it after you had decided he
couldn't go? That just sounds mean -- unless I'm misunderstanding your
post, and you know he DID know about the invitation.


I told him because I'm assuming he will find out about the invitation
the
next time he sees the boy. I felt it would have been mean to tell him
*before* we had decided whether it was even an option. I don't get
that
logic. Would you bring out candy to your kids and say, "So, I'm
thinking of
letting you have some candy. Uh, no, I've decided you can't. YANK."
Now,
THAT sounds mean to me. Better to decide first whether or not they can
have
the candy and then bring it out if they're allowed. They can then
refuse if
they want.


I don't think it would be any more cruel than saying, "Here's a box of
candy, but you can't have any."

The biggest difference is if you tell him BEFORE you make up your mind,
you can honestly say, "There's an invitation, and we're leaning towards
not letting you go, but wondered if you had anything you'd like to say
about it before we make a final decision."

One of three things will happen:

1 - He'll tell you he doesn't want to go, anyway -- in which case you
can stop considering it. (Not likely, perhaps, but my kids have
surprised me from time to time by NOT wanting to do something that I
thought they would want to do.)

2 - He'll lobby to go, and manage to find an argument that you find
persuasive. ("Hey, we'll be studying Texas history next month --
wouldn't it be great if I'd actually BEEN to The Alamo and could picture
it?") Or some limitation that you would find acceptable. ("How about if
Dad comes, too?")

3 - He'll lobby to go, but NOT find an argument or limitation that you
find persuasive. However, at least he will feel that his input was
heard and considered, and you might even have a chance to negotiate or
discuss what sorts of circumstances might help you change your mind --
what sorts of signs of maturity from him you are looking for, or what
sorts of trips might be OK.

The only reason to NOT tell him while you are still considering it is if
you do NOT listen to what he has to say. Even if you are 95% certain
you know what your answer is going to be, you missed an opportunity to
have a real discussion with him, and to let him see what sorts of things
you were considering.
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

  #25  
Old August 25th 04, 06:11 PM
Scott
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Posts: n/a
Default

Nevermind wrote:
Scott wrote

Well, it seems to me the two things are completely
different. For a BIG decision, like going away, I
think it helps kids to see how you decide whether
they can or cannot do something. They'll get a
feel for those things that you think are important,
and how you evaluate options and come to make
decisions. They can also learn how to argue a
case. I think those are important skills to
learn. In your case, your child could have learned
about trusting 'gut' feelings over more tangible
arguments. Or they just could've learned about
'Because we're your parents and say so', which I
guess is what he learned here.



Not at all; I didn't give "because we said so" as the reason; I told
him the real reasons. To me, what you are suggesting sounds like a
mean game: let the kid argue his big case, even though there's no
chance he can win it. Why raise his hopes?


Seeing the decision
process ongoing is more valuable than talking about
it afterwards, IMO. That seems to be where we
differ.



I do think it's educational to know what factors went into a decision,
but I don't think it matters *when* the child learns what the factors
were --when the process is being decided or afterward. And any benefit
that might accrue would be outweighed, for me, by the added pain that
would have been inflicted on him by having to wait around biting his
fingernails, only to be disappointed.



A good skill, IMO, is
learning how to deal with the stress of both
waiting around to learn about something that may
or may not happen and handling the fallout when
a raised expectation is not met.

That's not to say it's easy being around an 11-yo
who's sulking

Scott DD 11 and DS 8

  #26  
Old August 25th 04, 06:14 PM
Louise
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Default

On Wed, 25 Aug 2004 08:36:12 EDT, dragonlady
wrote:
The biggest difference is if you tell him BEFORE you make up your mind,
you can honestly say, "There's an invitation, and we're leaning towards
not letting you go, but wondered if you had anything you'd like to say
about it before we make a final decision."


One of three things will happen:

1 - He'll tell you he doesn't want to go, anyway -- in which case you
can stop considering it.


2 - He'll lobby to go, and manage to find an argument that you find
persuasive.


Or maybe he won't know right away either, and you'll be giving him the
gift of some time to explore the idea, imagine it both ways, and put
into words some of the good points and bad points. It seems to me
that our kids were/are more likely to acknowledge both sides of an
issue themselves if we let them know we hadn't decided yet. I also
like the idea of involving them in the problem-solving.

It's really valuable to help kids recognize their own needs in things
like pacing and privacy, so that they can start learning how to manage
these without (much) parental intervention. "When you and Greg play
at our house, you always play active games and when he goes home, you
watch TV. What could you do to take a break if you were staying at
Greg's, and you wanted some quiet time?" Maybe your son will be more
willing to acknowledge his own needs and begin to tackle the questions
of how to adapt, if you don't treat them as an obstacle or handicap.

3 - He'll lobby to go, but NOT find an argument or limitation that you
find persuasive. However, at least he will feel that his input was
heard and considered, and you might even have a chance to negotiate or
discuss what sorts of circumstances might help you change your mind --
what sorts of signs of maturity from him you are looking for, or what
sorts of trips might be OK.

The only reason to NOT tell him while you are still considering it is if
you do NOT listen to what he has to say. Even if you are 95% certain
you know what your answer is going to be, you missed an opportunity to
have a real discussion with him, and to let him see what sorts of things
you were considering.


You also get to find out what kinds of things he worries about - not
knowing how to telephone long distance, or wetting the bed, or Greg
making fun of him, or missing activities at home, or getting in
trouble with Greg's parents - maybe things you hadn't even considered.

Louise


  #27  
Old September 7th 04, 08:20 PM
Mary Gordon
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I'm the mom of three (13, 10 and 6) and the oldest two started at
summer camps (the sleep over kind) at age 8, going away for 2 weeks.

Only you know your son, but all I can say is my kids did just fine -
in fact, I personally think it was good for the boys (on top of them
having a blast and loving being there, having people to play with and
an endless supply of activities and fun stuff to do).

From this mom's perspective, nothing like being away from home for a

little bit to learn to feel independent (and discover you CAN survive
a few days away from home), look after your own stuff, eat what
everyone else is eating, learn how other people do things (i.e.
different routines, different ways), and generally learn to go with
the flow etc. I think if truth be known, I had more trepidations than
they did, and they were much more responsible and mature than I gave
them credit for (I think I might have been babying them a bit more
than necessary). We're certainly a lot more protective of our kids
than our parents were with us - and sometimes that is not a good thing
for a kid developing a sense of self beyond the family.

If your son is with someone he knows and is friends with, its less
daunting than going to camp with strangers. If you know the family and
trust them, I'd let the kid go for it if he wants to. I'm presuming he
could call home every now and then if he wanted to.

My daughter (6) has been on weekend "Sparks" - sort of junior brownies
- trips for 2 nights away, and she did fine with that too - and she's
chomping at the bit for 2 summers from now when she gets to go to camp
as well.

My vote would be to let the kid go if he wants to go.

Mary G.

  #28  
Old March 21st 05, 04:52 PM
Anon E. Mouse
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Default

In article , ohgosh1995
@yahoo.com says...
My 9 YO has been invited to go about 12 hours away for an entire week
with the family of a friend of his. This friend is a good friend, but
not someone he spends a ton of time with. Two overnight get-togethers
have gone well. My son is very sociable but also gets cranky and needs
alone time on a regular basis. The family is not an issue; I trust
them safety-wise, and they're also nice people. However, 9 seems too
young to me to have a child be that far away from home for an entire
week, and I worry about him getting sick of the family (his friend and
two younger sisters, mom, and dad) half-way through the week.

Problem is, the place they're going is a great place to go, both fun
and educational. I feel guilty about not letting him go, both because
I know it would be a great place for him to go (not that that means he
has to go this year) and because the other mother really wants him to
go for her son's sake.

Any thoughts? Are we just being babies about our "baby"?




If the kid wants to go let him go. You trust everything safety-wise.
The other stuff is really insignificant. If he hates it, you tell him,
"We left it up to you. You didn't have to go." You're worried about
him needing alone time and such. That is definitely babying him. If he
gets cranky, then he's the other people's responsibility then, and they
wanted him along. You can politely warn them about that, but what do
you care if he is cranky and annoyed? You'll be home. He'll be 12
hours away. It'll be good for him. It's only a week. Leave it up to
the kid.

AEM

 




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