What the Research Says About Physical Punishment

"0:-]" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 11:52:22 GMT, "Stephanie" wrote:


"0:-]" wrote in message
. ..
On Mon, 09 Jul 2007 09:59:52 -0700, Beliavsky
wrote:

On Jul 9, 12:07 pm, "0:-]" wrote:
http://www.uwex.edu/CES/flp/pp/pdf/punishmt.pdf

Parenting the Preschooler
Joan E. LeFebvre
Area Family Living Agent
University of Wisconsin-Extension
Vilas, Forest, Florence Counties

What the Research Says About Physical Punishment

Why do parents spank their children? According to
Murray Straus, a national family violence researcher,
the obvious answer is to correct misbehavior. But
another reason is that it's expected of them. In the
United States legal and social norms give parents the
right to use physical punishment to control and train
their children.

When my son, almost 4 years old, does something truly wrong, such as
wantonly hitting his 2-year-old brother, he deserves, and often gets,
a swat on his rear end.

Logically that does not follow based on a child of four's capacity to
understand what he deserves or doesn't. At best I'd equate it with
animal training, and animal trainers, the best ones, have stopped,
quite some time ago, using pain as a training aid. Discomfort,
possibly, but not hitting.

Such as a scent that dogs don't like to teach them to stay off of some
area, in a 'safe' area. Works.

I think that teaches not that random hitting
is acceptable but that misbehavior has consequences.

A four year old, and even older is unlikely to see it as anything but
randomness. For instance, if you aren't in sight and don't know he
hit, he gets away with it. Thus he is being taught to behave when
there is a chance of getting caught. Just what despots are looking for
in thugs to use.



Incidentally, and as an aside, IMO you do your argument disservice when
you
use chategorizations like despot and thug. The vast majority of people who
spank, and I daresay even go farther than that, need to be REACHED not
condemned.

As in "Yammering?" 0:]



I think you have miscategorized me as a person who criticizes speaking to a
child as somehow a wrong thing to do. I don't. But the concept of "dead" and
all that it implies is simply too much for a preschool aged child to base
their motivations on.

Yes, you are perfectly right. Try it.



I do. I have. I have succeeded in getting some peopel to at least LOOK at
the other options out there besides spanking.

Your logic needs adjustment, methinks.

Do you believe that many thugs and despots come from the population of
unspanked children?


I dont beleive that spanking yields thugs and despots. I was neither. I am a
staunch advocate of other methods and techniques. But I think ignorance is a
cureable disease, and spanking does not necessarily make a person a thug. If
you don't mean to reach people, I don't know what the point of even posting
is.

"0:-]" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 11:58:51 GMT, "Stephanie" wrote:


"0:-]" wrote in message
. ..
On Mon, 09 Jul 2007 09:59:52 -0700, Beliavsky
wrote:

On Jul 9, 12:07 pm, "0:-]" wrote:
http://www.uwex.edu/CES/flp/pp/pdf/punishmt.pdf

Parenting the Preschooler
Joan E. LeFebvre
Area Family Living Agent
University of Wisconsin-Extension
Vilas, Forest, Florence Counties

What the Research Says About Physical Punishment

Why do parents spank their children? According to
Murray Straus, a national family violence researcher,
the obvious answer is to correct misbehavior. But
another reason is that it's expected of them. In the
United States legal and social norms give parents the
right to use physical punishment to control and train
their children.

When my son, almost 4 years old, does something truly wrong, such as
wantonly hitting his 2-year-old brother, he deserves, and often gets,
a swat on his rear end.

Logically that does not follow based on a child of four's capacity to
understand what he deserves or doesn't. At best I'd equate it with
animal training, and animal trainers, the best ones, have stopped,
quite some time ago, using pain as a training aid. Discomfort,
possibly, but not hitting.

Such as a scent that dogs don't like to teach them to stay off of some
area, in a 'safe' area. Works.

I think that teaches not that random hitting
is acceptable but that misbehavior has consequences.

A four year old, and even older is unlikely to see it as anything but
randomness. For instance, if you aren't in sight and don't know he
hit, he gets away with it. Thus he is being taught to behave when
there is a chance of getting caught. Just what despots are looking for
in thugs to use.

"Time-outs" are
often recommended as an alternative to spanking, but how do you
enforce a time-out if the child does not listen? Spanking is a
necessary last resort.

Time-outs are pointless. I do not believe in them. They do not get the
desired result all that often.

The trick is to do a 'time-in,' because do you not want the child to
both understand what they did, and to find out why they did it, (say
wanting little sister's toy, or YOUR affection when sister has been
getting it), and finally the alternative's the CHILD may use to get
what he desires in an appropriate way?

That IS what good citizenship is about. Getting your needs met without
intruding on other's rights.



There is nothing so simple as a spanking replacement technique which is
why
it is difficult to communicate wih spankers.

And interestingly enough, many that do try and successfully use a
"spanking replacement technique," such as a time-in, after a bit,
start reporting that life is EASIER all around and not just "that
behavior" is effected by others as well. Unwanted behaviors of all
kinds start to fall with almost NO effort, because the child now has a
deeper trust of the parent as protector and guide.

"Time-in" is a concept that is expressed in such things as Embry's
"Safe Play," routine, when the parent uses his suggestions to sit with
the child as they watch other children at play, safely, and the parent
points that out to the child.

It builds on the natural trust in and desire to be with the
parent...the bond, the attachment factor is being USED well and
properly.

Spanking, even punishment, tends to impact the trust bond, and
sometimes reduce it. Witness "The Terrible Teen."

And no, I didn't misspell "Twos." Or "Threes."

I kid around about, but it's a fact, a 15 year old is just divisible
by five, as to what nature makes them do.

They want an answer to well
what do I do instead.

I hope you aren't going to do much of that.

Leaving out punctuation. I'm far from perfect at it, but I notice that
when I'm subjected to it, and have to slow down and start analyzing
another's words I get cranky. You don't want to make me cranky.....R R
R R R R R RR



I don't give a rats ass if you are cranky. I will simply have nothing
further to do with you if you start beign a fruit loop. And you have started
down that journey by criticize the fact that I missed punctuation. The fact
that you have me mischaracterized has not endeared you to me either.

In any case, feel free to get cranky. It will have no impact on me
whatsoever.

You cannot replace spanking with magic othe
rpunishment X with a positive parenting approach.

Sure I can.

Many times, in working with abused and dx'd mentally ill teens, I got
that they were touch deprived.

Now had I been a punishing parent, like where they came from, I'd have
gotten out the paddle and satisfied their need.

As a caring parent, and one that was charged with their mental health,
I simply reached out and put my hand oh so lightly on their shoulder,
and half or more of the "battle," was won.

"CP replacement"...hey, I never thought of that term before. You have
me a good idea, even if I claim you are mistaken.

The toolbox includes a lot
more tools, and requires more skill and understanding to choose the right
tool for the job.

I tend to take a different approach. I point out how so many of those
tools derive from things ALL parents do and have done over time, and
in fact that they are EASILY accessible, based on human nature.

The punishment ways are NOT easy, or very normal for humans.

We don't feel it necessary to beat a child into nursing from it's
mother.

It is HARD.

Naw, it just looks hard because doing it is new to the specific person
questioning it. All new things tend to look hard.

Confusing might be a better applied term.

"How does picking up and hugging a child that just slugged another NOT
teach him to hit because you just reinforced it?"

That's a biggie, isn't it?

The "opposition," the CP'rs, usually get around to that.

And the answer is simplicity itself.

Look at WHY the child slugged the other.

It's ALWAYS a need unfulfilled. Thus frustration. Thus lashing out.

Treat the frustration.

If you are trying to get that balky car started would you want your
spouse, who seems to know more than you and always can start the car,
to slug you before pushing your rudely aside and starting it up?

Or would you want them to give you a hug and say, "Let me do that for
you, sweetie?"

I for one, make lousy coffee. My wife should be a barrista.

She better NOT whack me when I sputter over one of my bad cups.

"Johnny, I see you wanted that toy for yourself. hug, kiss. How can
you get that without hurting your sister?"

I've seen kids light up, and right out of the blue (often), tell me
they could DO WHAT I HAVE DONE IN THE PAST TO THEM....with: "I could
give her another toy in exchange."

We do NOT have to spank, nor do we have to make alternatives hard.

And we do have to raise capable people that are problem solvers,
rather than "solution," junkies that have to run to others for their
fix.

Spankers HAVE done those other things before, but just haven't heard
of the things we might be suggesting.

And it is particularly hard when you are
changing your approach at first and replacing what is often ingrained
habits.

Bingo. So associate the new with the old.

"What adult when you were a kid, did you go to when your parents
scared you?"

"How did uncle Bill treat you about the problem?"

Almost always there's a way to connect to prior experience, unless you
are talking to someone so horrendously abused that they have little or
no experience with kindness as a child. A very rare person indeed.

But really, when all is said and done, humans cannot always get their
"needs" met whether or not they are intruding on other's rights. Children
have to learn that some things cant be had also.

A whack upside the head really doesn't teach them that, of course.

Patience does.

Social skills.

Consider how this would affect the relationship of parents and
their teens, who are often too big to control by physical
force. The only real resource we have with teens is the
bank of goodwill created through parenting over the
years.

Really? In America, middle and upper class parents typically provide
their children a pretty comfortable life.

I'm not sure I see the connection.

Children owe their parents a
reasonable degree of obedience.

Children chose to be here, as YOUR child?



I think children owe their parents' NOTHING. *If* there is a debt to pay,
it
is the parents who foot thebill. But since it is simply the natural order,
the idea of owing seems a silly one to me.

Dangerous in fact. It goes against the natural order.

And part of the natural order will come when you and I are the child
again, in old age.

Should the parent that tends us ask us for payment? No, demand it, or
kick us out when we cannot pay?

What if we are, shudder "DISRESPECTFUL" to them, eh?

It's "hit the road, Granny" time?

Or time for more patience and gentleness, and even fun?

Granny will get over being old and feeble, just as the child will get
over being young and feeble. Just different outcomes.

I see no reason to reject either by spanking them.

0:]

Rosalie B. wrote:
Tori M wrote:

Go to the library and get them. Your kids should go, too.
Go to your bedroom and look around, that is the size of the public
library. I will check for it but I will not be surprised if their
parenting section is just Dobson. We went to the library last week when
we went to the post office. That's when I realized I never knew where
it was because it is so tiny.

We had a library about that size when we lived in RI. But I could
always request books from other libraries in the state. And I did a
lot of that. Still do even though we live where there is a bigger
library now. There's no charge if you have a library card and there's
usually no charge for the card. You may even be able to do it over
the internet.


I just went looking for our library card to see if I couldn't find the
website to see if the one in town is connected to the web. There is a
network but if they are not on the network it can take forever to find
books not local.

Tori

"0:-]" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 19:43:43 GMT, "Stephanie" wrote:


"0:-]" wrote in message
. ..
On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 11:48:04 GMT, "Stephanie" wrote:


"0:-]" wrote in message
news On Mon, 09 Jul 2007 14:11:15 -0500, Tori M
wrote:



I dont think obedience is even a useful goal to have for your child.
I
prefer to teach judgement.



I prefer that they obey until they learn judgment.

And until they do, spanking is the tool to teach them do obey you?

There are rules for a
reason.

Sure there are. And before a child can "reason" we have more choices
than simply hitting them to force them to obey.



I, for one, don't think that most rules are in place for a reason. Or at
least often not a defensible one. I have a funny approach. If I sound
like
a
retard to myself trying to explain a rule to my kids, I rethink the
rule.

Concept works for me.

By the way, it doesn't work very well.

If I tell my kids not to run in the road in front of cars I
would prefer they obey because the natural consequence of being hit by
a
car is not something I am willing to risk.

Of course.

If your child is so young he lacks sufficient judgement, why is he
being allowed access to road traffic at all?

Are you not, as the parent, responsible for maintaining his safety,
even if it means fencing your yard, and putting a child proof latch on
the gate?



And there is absolutely nothing wrong with telling your child, you have
demonstrated to me that you lack sufficient self control to play in the
yard
yourself. Therefore you must wait until Mommy can supervise you. They
then
KNOW what it is they are striving for... enough self control to be
allowed
to play by themselves. You can begin to tell them what self control
looks
like and feels like, etc..

In age appropriate language, of course, or you will be accused by the
twits present, as trying to "debate" your child into behaving.



Of course. The thing is, there is a time when a kid just does not KNOW
what
is appropriae and a time when they know and are otherwise motivated.
Different "problems" require different solutions.

Yep. You mentioned "it's hard," though to use alternative methods to
spanking.


Not really. If I It is hard to change. To think of many tools in the toolbox
instead of whipping out the one. The funny thing is that over time, it
becomes easier. My favorite author refers to this as investment discipline.
You work to teach your children what they are able to be responsible for at
a young age, and you are not attempting to correct those issues when they
are older.

I don't find that to be true. No more hard, then you later stated,
about it being NEW behavior for the parent. For some new is fun, for
some hard, for most, just a short learning period.



For some, myself and one other person really being my only data points, it
is not super easy to let the habits and thoughts born of your formative
years with your own upbringing go. You have to continually nudge a tad to
stay on track when habits of old try to reestablish themselves.

I'd hate to think that someone that is spanking would presume that
it's TOO hard for them.

Most folks have some idea of their mental capacity, and try to stay
inside those limits. Hence, if they were using spanking, they might
assume by "hard" meaning too hard for them.



OR they might understand that not spanking, does not make positive
discipline. Lots of people misconceive that "positive" discipline is the
equivalent to a sort of happy horse**** non-discipline. I certainly don't
mean to attempt to get people to shy away from it as too hard. But it
requires *thought* and not simple reaction in the moment. A forward thinking
game plan, if you will.

A common laughable attempt by them to avoid the obvious...that
non-spankers have a far larger repertoire than spankers do, usually.

Or if younger, simply keeping him attached to you physically where you
are on foot in traffic?

The whole talk to them and
eventually they will just do what is right because you talked their
ear
off is bull.

Of course. You are correct. Where did you get the idea that talking is
the only thing other than spanking you can teach a child with?

I taught my children to stay out of traffic, at the appropriate age,
with the infamous "flat possum" lesson. It's yukky, but when
accompanied by a little talk and a few questions, like, "... do you
think the little possum's mommy will miss him? Will the little possum
be able to play with his little possum friends again? Ever? Will his
daddy (this while on the way to the store for a treat) ever be able to
buy him an ice cream cone again?



For me it was "you are much too precious for me to risk" combined with,
IF
you cannot remain close to me on your own THEN you must ride in the
stroller. Or WHEN you have shown me that you can remain safely close to
me
THEN you can walk without holding my hand. It takes a time or twenty for
you
to enforce stroller or hand holding. But they figger it.

And often enough time passes that it's more a matter of them growing
into the capacity to understand...though you certainly can lay down
the patterns you want them to understand later, now, when they are too
young to understand.

That's how children learn. They don't understand "Milk" "Cookie"
"hugs" the first time you use the word. And in fact may "babble" words
that have meaning to you, but none to them.


Yes aggreed.

And we know that by talking to a child, even if they do not understand
the word meanings, they learn to speak earlier.

I recommend this lesson no younger than five, and preferably six,
though one need not wait that long to begin.

And better, stop by with the kiddies for a few days to revisit the
flat possum. 0:]

Actually the consequence in my house for them not listening to me is
we
don't go outside. They can not run into the road if I don't take them
out to play.

Tori

Kane

Why do you spank?



You're respondign to me?

Sorry, the attributions were scrambled. The last poster's before my
comment, as you see, was 'Tori.'

I slapped my son's diapered bottom once. He was
unaware it took place. I was horrified. I immediately began looking for
sources of information to change my patterns. I have never struck my
children since.

I presume you did it out of frustration, or was it a well thought out
spanking done with 'love?" 0;]

0;] = 'facetious'



You know. I don't remember. Luckily, as I said, he was unaware. Though I DO
believe that spanking with love occurs. My parents did it. My father was the
one who carried out their misguided vision. And he did it because of love.
And he hated every last second of it. THAT was worse punishment than the
spankins.

http://www.amazon.com/Discipline-Lif...4002232&sr=8-1

http://www.amazon.com/Positive-Disci...4002301&sr=8-3


The first book was not on the system. The second was so I have that
coming to me. the local library has NO non fiction books. I also
ordered How To Behave so Your Children Will Too.

Tori

Tori M wrote:

Rosalie B. wrote:
Tori M wrote:

Go to the library and get them. Your kids should go, too.
Go to your bedroom and look around, that is the size of the public
library. I will check for it but I will not be surprised if their
parenting section is just Dobson. We went to the library last week when
we went to the post office. That's when I realized I never knew where
it was because it is so tiny.

We had a library about that size when we lived in RI. But I could
always request books from other libraries in the state. And I did a
lot of that. Still do even though we live where there is a bigger
library now. There's no charge if you have a library card and there's
usually no charge for the card. You may even be able to do it over
the internet.


I just went looking for our library card to see if I couldn't find the
website to see if the one in town is connected to the web. There is a
network but if they are not on the network it can take forever to find
books not local.

You don't have to find it. Just go to the library with the title and
author and put in a request. Let them look for it.

At least that is what I did in the early 70s before there was much
internet.

On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 15:25:14 -0500, Tori M wrote:

Rosalie B. wrote:
Tori M wrote:

Go to the library and get them. Your kids should go, too.
Go to your bedroom and look around, that is the size of the public
library. I will check for it but I will not be surprised if their
parenting section is just Dobson. We went to the library last week when
we went to the post office. That's when I realized I never knew where
it was because it is so tiny.

We had a library about that size when we lived in RI. But I could
always request books from other libraries in the state. And I did a
lot of that. Still do even though we live where there is a bigger
library now. There's no charge if you have a library card and there's
usually no charge for the card. You may even be able to do it over
the internet.


I just went looking for our library card to see if I couldn't find the
website to see if the one in town is connected to the web. There is a
network but if they are not on the network it can take forever to find
books not local.

Tori

You're doing all the work. Let the librarian help you.

You don't have to find it. Just go to the library with the title and
author and put in a request. Let them look for it.

At least that is what I did in the early 70s before there was much
internet.

The librarians arround here are bad about doing that in the non
Networked places. Luckily for me the library in town is set up on the
internet and I can search for books online and pick them up when they
are gathered. I walked over this afternoon.

Tori

You're doing all the work. Let the librarian help you.


I have lived in the area for 5 years almost. If it isn't connected to
the interlibrary website the Librarians do not do much leg work around
here. The one here local looked up a book for me today because I didn't
want to watch the video of it.

Tori

Tori M wrote:
You don't have to find it. Just go to the library with the title and
author and put in a request. Let them look for it.

At least that is what I did in the early 70s before there was much
internet.

The librarians arround here are bad about doing that in the non
Networked places. Luckily for me the library in town is set up on the
internet and I can search for books online and pick them up when they
are gathered. I walked over this afternoon.


Did you bring your kids?

Tori

--
nimue

"Let your freak-flag fly, and if someone doesn't get you, move on."
Drew Barrymore