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"Beware of Vaccine Bullies"--Malkin column



 
 
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  #11  
Old February 8th 04, 12:42 AM
Mark
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Default "Beware of Vaccine Bullies"--Malkin column

"Roger Schlafly" wrote in message .net...
"Mark" wrote
The author's entire thesis appears to be about the unfairness of the
doctor kicking her kid out of his practice. She referred to it as a
"threat".


Nowhere does she say that was unfair. Her complaint was that the
ped was trying to pressure her into getting vaccines that she didn't
want.



The Ped said, "I don't want to be your kid's doctor if you choose not
to get him fully immunized."

Then this author up and writes a huffy article entitled "Beware the
Vaccine Bullies".

It's a choice thing, not a coercion thing. Your wife might say that
she'll divorce you and take the kids if you cheat on her. Does this
mean that you are being "coerced" into fidelity, or does it mean that
you choose to keep your pants zipped because you'd rather not face the
consequences of making a stupid choice?

For a libertarian-minded person such as yourself (and JG), this seems
like a pretty simple concept.

Mark, MD
  #12  
Old February 8th 04, 06:32 PM
JG
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Default "Beware of Vaccine Bullies"--Malkin column

"Mark" wrote in message
om...
"JG" wrote in message

...

[...]

Scaremonger. The likelihood of an infant/child who has diligent

parents
and is not subjected to to "high risk" persons--e.g., the Malkins'
son--contracting hep B is no doubt so ridiculously small as to be
laughable.


*I'm* the scaremonger? That's a laugh. The other vectors *aren't
identified*. How you know that you're being diligent in protecting
your child against these vectors if you don't even know what they are?


Hep B is transmitted via body fluids; ergo, diligent parents will make
sure their infant/child isn't engaging in unprotected sex, sharing
needles, or
being exposed to the body fluids of others (of unknown hep B status) in
other ways.

Why should the doctor be compelled to keep a patient whose parents
don't follow his recommendations?


Who said, or even suggested, he should?


The author's entire thesis appears to be about the unfairness of the
doctor kicking her kid out of his practice. She referred to it as a
"threat".


Huh? Her "entire thesis" is that parents are pressured to get what, for
them, are unnecessary vaccines! (A subthesis is that pediatricians are
unthinking parrots.) She didn't say anything about "unfairness." I've
no doubt that the Malkins, as libertarians, agree that a physician has
the right to refuse to treat anyone. As for "threat," my dictionary's
(Am. Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, 4th ed.) first
definition for it is "An expression of an intention to inflict pain,
injury, evil, or punishment." I don't doubt that the Malkins'
pediatician, if he's as egotistical as many I've encountered, felt that
they'd somehow be pained/punished if they "defected"!

I can tell you *I'm* in no hurry to
take care of a kid with Hib meningitis, nor invasive pneumococcal
disease nor pertussis.


This author is free to find a doctor who will allow her daffy
decisions to usurp his training and better sense. No one is

holding a
gun to her head to *make* her get her child vaccinated; why does

she
have her panties in a twist because this particular doctor won't

play
her game?


It doesn't sound to me like she has "her panties in a twist" at all.
What did she write that gave you the impression she was bothered by
having to engage a pediatrician more amenable to her views? Sure,

she's
"bitter" and obviously ticked off by the doctor's condescending

attitude
(good for her!), but I would think she's more than happy to find

another
pediatrician


What did she write? Let's see...the "coercion", her "bitterness",
calling the Hep B "politically correct", being "threatened"...the fact
that she even bothered to write an entire article in the first place
leads me to believe she has a bee in her bonnet over this issue.


She's undoubtedly (and justifiably) concerned that *all* parents are
being pushed to have their kids vaccinated against a disease that isn't
widespread among their contacts or easily (relative to most of the
diseases for which kids are vaccinated) contracted, one that's simple to
avoid by taking other (simple) precautions.

It's called choice: She chose not to have her child fully
immunized...the doctor chose not to have her child as a patient.
Pretty straighforward, I say.


Yes. So? Looks like both parties will get what they want.


Exactly.


Again, so? Sounds like you're the one whose shorts are knotted, Mark...






  #13  
Old February 8th 04, 10:10 PM
Roger Schlafly
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Default "Beware of Vaccine Bullies"--Malkin column

"JG" wrote
Huh? Her "entire thesis" is that parents are pressured to get what, for
them, are unnecessary vaccines! (A subthesis is that pediatricians are
unthinking parrots.) She didn't say anything about "unfairness."


And Mark's attitude supports her point. Mark is one of those
peds who gets personally offended when a patient asks for the facts,
instead of just shutting up and blindly taking his orders.


  #14  
Old February 9th 04, 12:02 AM
Mark
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Posts: n/a
Default "Beware of Vaccine Bullies"--Malkin column

"JG" wrote in message ...
"Mark" wrote in message
om...
"JG" wrote in message

...

[...]

Scaremonger. The likelihood of an infant/child who has diligent

parents
and is not subjected to to "high risk" persons--e.g., the Malkins'
son--contracting hep B is no doubt so ridiculously small as to be
laughable.


*I'm* the scaremonger? That's a laugh. The other vectors *aren't
identified*. How you know that you're being diligent in protecting
your child against these vectors if you don't even know what they are?


Hep B is transmitted via body fluids; ergo, diligent parents will make
sure their infant/child isn't engaging in unprotected sex, sharing
needles, or
being exposed to the body fluids of others (of unknown hep B status) in
other ways.



You missed (or ignored) my contention that 30-40% of childhood Hep B
infections are NOT found to be linked to blood or body fluid contact.

It might be mosquitoes, but that hasn't been proven yet.

It might be a fecal-oral route, but that hasn't been proven yet.

It might be little green men with invisible hypodermic needles, but
that hasn't been proven yet.

The point is, about a third of childhood Hep B infections have no
identifiable vector, therefore the author's assertion, and yours, that
there is no need of protection is errant.

Mark, MD
  #15  
Old February 9th 04, 12:10 AM
JG
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Posts: n/a
Default "Beware of Vaccine Bullies"--Malkin column

"Mark" wrote in message
om...
"JG" wrote in message

...
"Mark" wrote in message
om...
"JG" wrote in message

...


[...]


Scaremonger. The likelihood of an infant/child who has diligent

parents
and is not subjected to to "high risk" persons--e.g., the

Malkins'
son--contracting hep B is no doubt so ridiculously small as to

be
laughable.


*I'm* the scaremonger? That's a laugh. The other vectors *aren't
identified*. How you know that you're being diligent in

protecting
your child against these vectors if you don't even know what they

are?

Hep B is transmitted via body fluids; ergo, diligent parents will

make
sure their infant/child isn't engaging in unprotected sex, sharing
needles, or
being exposed to the body fluids of others (of unknown hep B status)

in
other ways.



You missed (or ignored) my contention that 30-40% of childhood Hep B
infections are NOT found to be linked to blood or body fluid contact.


Not at all; see below.

It might be mosquitoes, but that hasn't been proven yet.


It might be a fecal-oral route, but that hasn't been proven yet.


It might be little green men with invisible hypodermic needles, but
that hasn't been proven yet.


The point is, about a third of childhood Hep B infections have no
identifiable vector, therefore the author's assertion, and yours, that
there is no need of protection is errant.


No *identified* vector; not "no *identifiable*" vector. I think it's
highly probable that infected infants/children were exposed, likely on a
regular basis, to an infected individual, and it's entirely possible
*that* individual was unaware that he/she was a carrier.


  #16  
Old February 9th 04, 03:38 AM
PF Riley
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Posts: n/a
Default "Beware of Vaccine Bullies"--Malkin column

On Sun, 8 Feb 2004 10:32:03 -0700, "JG" wrote:

Hep B is transmitted via body fluids; ergo, diligent parents will make
sure their infant/child isn't engaging in unprotected sex, sharing
needles, or
being exposed to the body fluids of others (of unknown hep B status) in
other ways.


So they'll just go to the library instead the playground at recess?
  #17  
Old February 9th 04, 03:42 AM
Roger Schlafly
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Posts: n/a
Default "Beware of Vaccine Bullies"--Malkin column

"PF Riley" wrote
Hep B is transmitted via body fluids; ergo, diligent parents will make
sure their infant/child isn't engaging in unprotected sex, sharing
needles, or
being exposed to the body fluids of others (of unknown hep B status) in
other ways.

So they'll just go to the library instead the playground at recess?


Is there more unprotected sex at recess than at the library?


  #18  
Old February 9th 04, 05:38 AM
JG
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default "Beware of Vaccine Bullies"--Malkin column

"PF Riley" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 8 Feb 2004 10:32:03 -0700, "JG" wrote:


Hep B is transmitted via body fluids; ergo, diligent parents will

make
sure their infant/child isn't engaging in unprotected sex, sharing
needles, or
being exposed to the body fluids of others (of unknown hep B status)

in
other ways.


So they'll just go to the library instead the playground at recess?


I dunno; someone here--D.C. Sessions, IIRC--used to claim that there
were documented cases of transmission via paper cuts! g (If you, or
anyone else, can provide such documentation, I'd love to see it. D.C.,
or whoever it was that made the assertion, never did when asked.)

Just what goes takes place on your schools' playgrounds, PF? Orgies?
Group piercings? Tattooing?

If you can find a verified, documented case of "recess transmission,"
please point me to it. Certainly if an instance of "blood swapping" did
occur, post-exposure prophylaxis could be considered/initiated.



  #19  
Old February 9th 04, 02:36 PM
Jeff
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Posts: n/a
Default "Beware of Vaccine Bullies"--Malkin column


"JG" wrote in message
...
(...)

If you can find a verified, documented case of "recess transmission,"
please point me to it. Certainly if an instance of "blood swapping" did
occur, post-exposure prophylaxis could be considered/initiated.


If the kids or adults present realized the danger of the situation, the
doctors involved agreed, and weighed the benefits and risks of the
post-exposure prophylaxis and felt that the benefits outweight the risks.
And then, only if the parents agreed and consented.

I doubt this would happen much.

Jeff


  #20  
Old February 9th 04, 04:51 PM
Jonathan Smith
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default "Beware of Vaccine Bullies"--Malkin column

"JG" wrote in message ...
"PF Riley" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 8 Feb 2004 10:32:03 -0700, "JG" wrote:


Hep B is transmitted via body fluids; ergo, diligent parents will

make
sure their infant/child isn't engaging in unprotected sex, sharing
needles, or
being exposed to the body fluids of others (of unknown hep B status)

in
other ways.


So they'll just go to the library instead the playground at recess?


I dunno; someone here--D.C. Sessions, IIRC--used to claim that there
were documented cases of transmission via paper cuts! g (If you, or
anyone else, can provide such documentation, I'd love to see it. D.C.,
or whoever it was that made the assertion, never did when asked.)

Just what goes takes place on your schools' playgrounds, PF? Orgies?
Group piercings? Tattooing?


Biting?


If you can find a verified, documented case of "recess transmission,"
please point me to it. Certainly if an instance of "blood swapping" did
occur, post-exposure prophylaxis could be considered/initiated.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract

: Pediatr Infect Dis J. 1989 Dec;8(12):870-5. Related Articles, Links


Hepatitis B virus transmission between children in day care.

Shapiro CN, McCaig LF, Gensheimer KF, Levy ME, Stoddard JJ, Kane MA,
Hadler SC.

Hepatitis Branch, Centers for Disease Control, Atlanta, GA 30333.

We investigated two situations involving hepatitis B virus exposure
among children in day care. In the first a 4-year-old boy who attended
a day care center developed acute hepatitis B; another child at the
center, who had a history of aggressive behavior (biting/scratching),
was subsequently found to be a hepatitis B carrier. No other source of
infection among family and other contacts was identified and no other
persons at the center became infected. In the second situation a
4-year-old boy with frequently bleeding eczematous lesions was
discovered to be a hepatitis B carrier after having attended a day
care center for 17 months. Testing of contacts at the center revealed
no transmission to other children or staff (representing 887 person
months of exposure). Nationwide surveillance data showed that for the
period 1983 to 1987, 161 children 1 to 4 years of age were reported
with acute hepatitis B. After children with known hepatitis B risk
factors were excluded, 25% (7 of 28) of children with known day care
status were reported as day care attendees, a percentage comparable to
national estimates of day care attendance by this age group. This is
the first reported case of hepatitis B virus transmission between
children in day care in the United States. Although it appears that
day care transmission of hepatitis B is infrequent, further studies
are needed to define the risk more accurately.
 




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