Slouching relieves back pain?

"OK...what helps relieve it? Not much!...Sitting down and slouching!
Sorry, but it's true..."

2) Lying on my back and attempting to raise my left leg, it hurts like
hell!
Best way to describe it is like a hot cable running from my right buttox,
following the femer line to midway between knee and butt. Right leg raise
is
no problem. Odd the MRI scan impression was a LEFT side bulge yet I feel
it
on the right. Hmmm? Must be the way the nerve is inervated?

3) Standing for more than 30 mins brings on more pain.
__________________

OK..what helps relieve it? Not much!
1) Sitting down and slouching! Sorry, but it's true.


SLOUCHING RELIEVES BACK PAIN?

I have no idea whether the discussion that follows pertains to this person's
apparent low back pain/sciatica problem...

Some might find it interesting though.

Since most humans on the planet flex their lumbar spines while resting
(squatting or sitting cross-legged)...

And since we chairdwellers lose our flat-footed squatting ability and
*don't* routinely flex our lumbar spines while resting (and end up wearing
out our posterior disc quadrants perhaps/probably? as a consequence)...

Canadian orthopedic surgeon W. Harry Fahrni, MD recommended that we not let
our children lose their innate flat-footed squatting ability.

For low back pain patients Fahrni recommended a form of slouching while
sitting - so that the lumbar spine would be flexed - to let the posterior
disc quadrant heal:

"[D]uring one's usual resting periods, one rests the back in flexion, not as
an occasional or periodic exercise, but as a permanent habit..."

See Fahrni WH. Conservative treatment of lumbar disc degeneration: Our
primary responsibility. Orth Clin N Am 1975;6(1):93-103.

See also: Fahrni WH. Backache Assessment and Treatment. Vancouver, BC:
Mosqueam. 1976.

THEN AGAIN, there are also those who find lumbar spine extension - or
"neutral" posture - sometimes (often?) affords relief of low back pain. The
McKenzie people spring to mind.

Is "maintaining the lordosis" good advice? Most humans - as Fahrni pointed
out - make the lumbar lordosis disappear - stack their lumbar discs evenly -
while resting upright - i.e. - they squat or sit cross-legged and do NOT
"maintain the lordosis"...

Inspite of years of exhortation from experts, most people in our culture
STILL don't "maintain the lordosis" - an observation that can be verified by
watching people who are sitting while reading for prolonged periods.

Some experts apparently misunderstand the latest theory on how the lumbar
discs cycle through a day/night dehydration/hydration cycle: By robbing
ourselves of our innate flat-footed squatting ability, we do not dehydrate
our discs evenly during the day - at least this is my understanding of the
latest theory.

See Sarah Key's huge balls (also: Kids can SQUAT motionless for hours)...
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/chiro-list/message/2084

Regardless whether Fahrni was/is right about preventing low back pain by
letting children squat into adulthood - I think we should let them maintain
their innate squatting ability if "only" to offer them the use of a
fundamental human rest posture thoughout life.

There is a bonus. With OBs routinely closing birth canals up to 30% at
delivery (see PROOF belowl) - with OBs blaming The Great Squat Robbery (see
Sarah Key's huge balls, URL above) - STOPPING The Great Squat Robbery
preserves squatting as a fundamental human rest posture that happens to
double for girls as a fundamental human delivery posture - one that allows
the birth canal to OPEN the "extra" up to 30%.

Pregnant women: You do NOT have to squat to allow your birth canal to open
the "extra" up to 30%.

For simple PROOF that OBs are knowingly closing birth canals up to
30%...

For simple instructions on how women can allow their
birth canals to OPEN their birth canals the "extra" up to 30%...

See I ain't no Semmelweis, but...
http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group...t/message/2591

SUMMARY...

Most humans on the planet can rise from a full squat well into old age.

Meanwhile, we chairdwellers slowly lose the ability to rise from a chair.

The problem is so bad that, here in the US, Medicare will help our elderly
buy "ejection" chairs that help them stand up from the seated position...

I agree with Fahrni, we should let our children maintain their flat-footed
squatting ability into adulthood.

It's a free experiment.

Thanks for reading.

Sincerely,

Todd

Dr. Gastaldo



PS Regarding the case above, Robert A. Fink, MD wrote:

"...the interspace needs *rest* in order for the swelling of the nerve to
decrease and the herniated disc to
desiccate (dry up)."
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=e...v8%404ax.co m

I agree substantially. This is similar to what Fahrni recommended.

I don't think this person's disc was herniated though.
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm...&output=gplain

Robert A Fink, MD also wrote:

"Chiropractic manipulation could make the problem worse..."

A true statement - but chiropractic manipulation also - seemingly
magically - instantly relieves a lot of pain - IN SOME CASES.

In many chiropractic patients, I think the disc gets better on its own and
the chiropractor gets (or takes) credit (I think someone made this point on
the thread)...

But this is still better than the old MD practice of prescribing bedrest and
medication - discouraging the patient from going to the chiropractor - and
performing surgery when things don't get better.

Actually, I suspect that this "old" MD practice - perhaps without the
bedrest recommendation - is still going on - though perhaps MDs are doing
fewer "failed back surgeries" nowadays (repeat surgeries when the patient
"fails" the first and subsequent surgeries)...

Orthopedic surgeons behaved grossly unscientifically when their low back
pain anti-science was finally exposed by a US Public Health
Service/AHCPR-sponsored panel of mostly MDs...

With the AMA's help, the back surgeons caused Congress to gut AHCPR...

Here is one account from Clifton Gaus, ScD, former administrator of AHCPR...

"As far as enemies go, AHCPR had many among the back surgeons who were more
than miffed by the guideline saying that they cut too often, sometimes
hurting patients, and that 'watchful waiting' was often better than surgery.
That hurt their pocketbooks and professional integrity; no wonder they
wanted AHCPR put out of existence."
http://www.healthaffairs.org/WebExcl...xcl_062503.htm

HUMOROUS AHCPR FACTOID...

How AHCPR (Agency for Health Care Policy and Research) got its name...

"The initial name, Agency for Health Care Research and Policy, was changed
late in the legislative process when a Senate staffer realized that the
acronym would be 'AHCRAP.'"
--From AHCPR And The Changing Politics Of Health Services Research
Lessons from the falling and rising political fortunes of the nation's
leading health services research agency.
by Bradford H. Gray, Michael K. Gusmano, and Sara R. Collins (25 June 2003)
http://www.healthaffairs.org/WebExcl...xcl_062503.htm

AH CRAP is likely what the back surgeons said to themselves when their
multiple failed back surgeries based on whim not science were exposed...

AHCPR Guideline 14 reported *20* failed back surgeries on the same patient
in one case!

While that was good, the AHCPR guideline also was bad...

"Sitting is not dangerous...[Adults with severe low back symptoms can sit
for] 20 min...[Adults with NO low back symptoms can sit for] 50 min."
(!!!!!)
--Bigos et al. (mostly MDs but also two DCs: Triano and Haldeman).AHCPR
(now AHRQ) Guideline 14

According to Guyton...

"Even such simple activities as sitting for [20 to 30 minutes]...can cause
tissue destruction..."
--Guyton AC. Textbook of Medical Physiology. 7th ed. Phil: W.B. Saunders
1986]

According to Newsweek...

"Educators say that many five-year olds really can't handle a highly
academic program. They're still learning how to sit still for more than
15 minutes at a time." [Kantrowitz B, Wingert P. The big grind in
kindergarten. Newsweek (Aug10)1987. From Gastaldo's peer review of the
AHCPR-sponsored Low Back Guideline draft.]

Our chairdwelling culture is forcing our children (and adults!) to endure
chronic imminent tissue destruction in myotomes and dermatomes that are
quite relevant to low back pain symptomology...

"Sitting is not dangerous" appears to me to be a bald lie.

Sitting in chairs MAY not cause low back pain - but it very likely is
robbing us of a fundamental human rest posture that evenly stacks our lumbar
discs...

Sitting in chairs has been used by OBs as an excuse for their bizarre
practice of closing birth canals up to 30% at delivery...

Sitting in chairs sucks.

Thanks for reading.

Sincerely,

Todd

Dr. Gastaldo




"Blah" wrote in message
...
First; I want to thank everyone who responded to my questions..It is
appreciated. This is a great group with a lot of good information.

OK..next; with full realization that one can not convey the entire medical
picture via this medium, I probably did not do a good job in my initial
post.
I do not have access to my MRI impression with me tonight, or I would
quote
it verbatim.
I do have a medical background as a Perfusionist, hardly any help as it is
far removed from Orthopaedics etc...

With a little extra time tonight, I will try to re-cap my Lumbar problem I
am having; hopefully with a little more specificity. Please excuse me if
it
gets a little long winded.
______________________________________
1) MRI showed "Moderately large diffuse LEFT side bulge at L5-S1"..."No
spinal mis-alignment"

2) L1 thru L4 are unremarkable

3) L5-S1 degeneration..
Note: I could see the lack of water content myself in the T2 weighted
image.

4) "Mild compression of nerve root"
___________________________________

When I retrieve my MRI report from my office, I will quote it verbatim as
there were measurements concerning the bulge. Perhaps a physician on board
here can tell me if it seems to be a serious bulge or not based on the AP
cranial caudal measurements.

OK; here is what exacerbates my pain..please no "Don't do that" jokes.

1) In the morning I am very tight in the hip and right gluteal region. I
can
NOT touch my toes. Burns like hell in the hip. As the day wears on I can
touch my toes. Actually, I can stand with feet together and press my palms
flat to the floor. I was always very flexible due to years of martial
arts.

2) Lying on my back and attempting to raise my left leg, it hurts like
hell!
Best way to describe it is like a hot cable running from my right buttox,
following the femer line to midway between knee and butt. Right leg raise
is
no problem. Odd the MRI scan impression was a LEFT side bulge yet I feel
it
on the right. Hmmm? Must be the way the nerve is inervated?

3) Standing for more than 30 mins brings on more pain.
__________________

OK..what helps relieve it? Not much!
1) Sitting down and slouching! Sorry, but it's true.
2) Discovered today if I walk and keep my head down, chin to chest, it
hurts
less. Must be something to do with increasing the intervertebral space;
yes?
3) Hot soak in the tub helps "loosen" it up, but not for long.
4) NSAID'S...Advil; Aleve. Helps some but not really all that much.

Today I hit some golf balls at the range. I know..probably stupid..so
tonight I am walking with a limp, unless I "walk it out" for several
minutes.

History: This all began about 100 days ago and has progressivly grown a
little worse. The pain seems to be focusing more to the low right back,
but
still burns in the right hip and somewhat down that leg..even feel some
parathesis in the R lateral calf. Perhaps it IS healing and this is simply
the progression before I feel some relief?
I have tried the Prednisone path with no effect whatsoever.
Advil and/or Aleve seem to do better..Must be the mechanism of action?

My reason for re-stating is this; there seems to be much controversy
concerning the proper path to take care of this. Some say do the surg,
most
say no. Some say a selective block is ok, some say don't.

Most articles I have read state 6 weeks and one should feel a little
better..well; it has been 3+ months and I feel more restricted with a
little
more pain.
Do I seek another opinion or take the wait and see posture? Wait til I can
hardly walk? Hmm?
Still frustrated.

Thanks again to all.

ps: My coworkers notice I do walk with an obvious tilt in my hips. I can
see
it when I stand and look at the mirror..There is an obvious left tilt when
looking at my centerline. I lean to the left above the waist. Hmm again?