Is standing in the corner forbidden now?

"Dave Thompson" wrote in message ...

Only because of an equal ape **** reaction from the Fundy crowd (please note
that I am distinguishing them from all Christians) who are forcing prayer in
school, creationism, and bible study issues through the political arena.
After a while it gets old and you wonder what it is they don't understand
about teaching their own children their religious beliefs and leaving others
out of it.

This semi-intelligent Fundy crowd aren't making any real headway though,
are they? It's my understanding (don't have kids in public school) that
the public schools have, by and large, pretty much squelched even the
use of words like "Christmas" in their wonderful, multicultural hallowed
halls.

That is broken down into hundreds of sects and factions that don't agree.
Since these groups belittle each other for the rights to other people's
souls, it really is unrealistic to claim that we are Christian and have it
mean anything. As far as evangelicals are concerned, they are the only real
Christians and they don't even amount to 15% of that 85%. Heck, if you look
it up you'd find that the largest single denomination is Roman Catholic,

This is all pretty pointless. They ALL believe in Jesus Christ as the Lord
and Savior; the various disagreements they have amongst themselves are
greatly overshadowed by their unified belief in Jesus Christ.

That's specious, too. Many were Unitarians (who the evangelicals loath) and
none were of the faith who are the biggest abusers of the idea that we are a
Christian nation.

We are still a Christian nation. It's a fact.

Don't forget that these founders were concerned with
religious freedom

But all under the umbrella of Christianity, yes? Catholic or Protestant
mainly. None of them would've looked too favorably on someone having
the freedom to practice, say, Wiccan, would they?

not only because that's why the original colonists
arrived, but also because they were seeing almost every state trying to
establish it's own state church. I doubt if the founders were alive today
and running for office that the conservative Christians would support their
politics at all and would surely denounce their religion.

But they certainly wouldn't denounce their religion, if by "religion"
you mean Christianity.

That did not happen untill 1863 on some coins, was halted in 1865, was
restored on some coins in 1908, and did not become an offical motto until
1956. And it was hardly done by the people's vote.

So? The phrase is there.

What you need to get over is that some people take offense to attempts of
the religious conservatives to slowly infuse this country with their beliefs
and try to use the government to endorse their religion.

So are you claiming that these prayers in Congress are something new? And what
do you mean by conservatives doing this? Even the liberal politicos bow
their heads in prayer, most of them anyway. Even the Clintons were big
on praying to the Christian God.

People have a right
in this country to believe or not believe as they see fit,

I agree.

and for those of
us who object to the religious and political doctrine of evangelicals,
reformationists, and fundamentalists being foisted upon us through
government, we have a right to point it out as it happens. Ask yourself, is
school prayer really about freedom of religion for the children of
evangelicals, or is it about proselytization of those of us who are not
believers?

School prayers have been outlawed, AFAIK. I think you're going on and
on about something that doesn't really exist.

I don't think it's too much to ask to leave worship out of the
curriculum of our public schools. There are many other places and
opportunities where it is available.

Ditto what I wrote above.

--
Graham

(Graham) wrote:
Don't forget Q, this is still a very Christian nation (over 85%).

No it isn't. And the "85%" is true only when it is useful to your
politics. The rest of the time, the fundies claim that Catholics
aren't Christian, that those who voted for Kerry (roughly half) aren't
Christian, that those who aren't pro-life (again about half, most of
whom aren't Catholic) aren't Christian, etc.

This nation was founded by men who (most of them anyway) belonged
to the faith.

No. Most of the leaders among the Founders were rationalist Deists,
men who believed in a clockmaker Creator-God who was not actively
involved in their daily lives, and not the Living Christ.

Every single piece of coinage and paper money minted
has "In God We Trust" on it.

Which the court has rubbed to be "ceremonial deism", i.e. it is
permitted ONLY because it doesn't really mean anything.

Congress opens each session with a prayer to the Judeo-Christian God,

The use of chaplains is under challenge, I believe.

lojbab
--
lojbab
Bob LeChevalier, Founder, The Logical Language Group
(Opinions are my own; I do not speak for the organization.)
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org

(Graham) wrote:
That is broken down into hundreds of sects and factions that don't agree.
Since these groups belittle each other for the rights to other people's
souls, it really is unrealistic to claim that we are Christian and have it
mean anything. As far as evangelicals are concerned, they are the only real
Christians and they don't even amount to 15% of that 85%. Heck, if you look
it up you'd find that the largest single denomination is Roman Catholic,

This is all pretty pointless. They ALL believe in Jesus Christ as the Lord
and Savior; the various disagreements they have amongst themselves are
greatly overshadowed by their unified belief in Jesus Christ.

What does it mean to "believe in Jesus Christ" though? Thomas
Jefferson said "I am a Christian" and then went on to explain that he
considered Jesus to be a great moral teacher, with his teachings
corrupted by the demon-worshipper Paul.

That's specious, too. Many were Unitarians (who the evangelicals loath) and
none were of the faith who are the biggest abusers of the idea that we are a
Christian nation.

We are still a Christian nation. It's a fact.

It is not - it is merely your religious belief.

Don't forget that these founders were concerned with
religious freedom

But all under the umbrella of Christianity, yes?

We are also all under the umbrella of "Americans", but listening to
the right using "liberal" like it is a dirty word, the racists who
lambast blacks and Hispanic immigrants, one would question whether
they really believe it.

not only because that's why the original colonists
arrived, but also because they were seeing almost every state trying to
establish it's own state church. I doubt if the founders were alive today
and running for office that the conservative Christians would support their
politics at all and would surely denounce their religion.

But they certainly wouldn't denounce their religion, if by "religion"
you mean Christianity.

Christianity isn't A religion; it is a label for hundreds of religion
which share a name in common, and not much else.

That did not happen untill 1863 on some coins, was halted in 1865, was
restored on some coins in 1908, and did not become an offical motto until
1956. And it was hardly done by the people's vote.

So? The phrase is there.

That doesn't make it "right".

and for those of
us who object to the religious and political doctrine of evangelicals,
reformationists, and fundamentalists being foisted upon us through
government, we have a right to point it out as it happens. Ask yourself, is
school prayer really about freedom of religion for the children of
evangelicals, or is it about proselytization of those of us who are not
believers?

School prayers have been outlawed, AFAIK. I think you're going on and
on about something that doesn't really exist.

Fundies want to bring prayer back to the schools, along with Christian
moral teaching and a bunch of other stuff that is unconstitutional.

lojbab
--
lojbab
Bob LeChevalier, Founder, The Logical Language Group
(Opinions are my own; I do not speak for the organization.)
Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org

(jitney) wrote in message . com...
Like any entrenched bureaucracy, the education establishment exists,
not for the students, but as a full employment program for an army of
administrators, assistants, assistants to assistants, and yes,
shrinks. Having to justify their presense on the payroll, they create
needs that aren't really needs and other alternate realities. Part of
this process is an elaborate and complex vocabulary meant to confuse
rather than describe, and to make complicated what is really simple so
as to require a large staff of degreed professionals who, in a well
ordered society, would be pushing a broom or cleaning toilets. Many
parents have given up on what former Education Secretary William
Bennett called "the blob" (referring to the intransigence of the
education establishment) and turned to private schools and home
schooling with a high rate of success.-Jitney

Yup. These kids got in the car at midnight and drove way too fast and
crashed and killed themselves because the local school needs to employ
a shrink. Or wait, was it the fault of the NFL because of their
smutty advertising? Or the teacher who did not teach them to add
three numbers at the correct age? I am sure you are correct that
these tragedies are the fault of your local school district or TV
station and
not in any way related to parenting, or lack thereof.

Gray Shockley wrote:

Whew! Long anti-Christian tirade snipped



On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 9:34:26 -0600, Graham wrote:

Yep, I was right. It was the Christian part that set you off.
But I can't disagree that Christianity has hypocrites, as all
religions do.

Folks keep saying that but it hasn't been my experience. I grew up around
lotsa Jews and I worked with buncha Buddhists as well as an indigenous people
who had their own religion and I just have not seen this hypocrisy.

However, let me be clear - while I was being raised a Christian (of the
Southern Presbyterian brand), I was also growing up watching the Christian
Fundamentalist Terrorists castrate, murder and rape people. And I've seen
figures as high as 50,000 people being victims to these Christian
Fundamentalist Terrorists.


That doesn't, however, change the fact that
this nation was built with a great Christian influence,


Which showed itself in what ways?


and that the majority of citizens still belong
to the faith, at least officially.


Yup; I've worked in a mental hospital and talked to the prisoners on death
row at Parchman Farm (Mississippi State Penal Institution at Parchman).

[I would like to think that the prison no longer allows college students
(Philosophy 203 - Ethics) to wander around death row but I'm glad I had the
opportunity.]

Those two places had the most religious people I've ever seen.

--
Graham


Gray

On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 9:56:56 -0600, Graham wrote:

We are still a Christian nation. It's a fact.

We are also a female nation. This, too, is a fact.


++ Gray //

Bob LeChevalier wrote in message . ..
(Graham) wrote:
Don't forget Q, this is still a very Christian nation (over 85%).

No it isn't. And the "85%" is true only when it is useful to your
politics. The rest of the time, the fundies claim that Catholics
aren't Christian, that those who voted for Kerry (roughly half) aren't
Christian, that those who aren't pro-life (again about half, most of
whom aren't Catholic) aren't Christian, etc.

This nation was founded by men who (most of them anyway) belonged
to the faith.

No. Most of the leaders among the Founders were rationalist Deists,
men who believed in a clockmaker Creator-God who was not actively
involved in their daily lives, and not the Living Christ.

Every single piece of coinage and paper money minted
has "In God We Trust" on it.

Which the court has rubbed to be "ceremonial deism", i.e. it is
permitted ONLY because it doesn't really mean anything.

Were you always this delusional?

--
Graham

On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 6:36:10 -0600, Graham wrote
(in message ) :

Bob LeChevalier wrote in message
. ..
(Graham) wrote:
Don't forget Q, this is still a very Christian nation (over 85%).

No it isn't. And the "85%" is true only when it is useful to your
politics. The rest of the time, the fundies claim that Catholics
aren't Christian, that those who voted for Kerry (roughly half) aren't
Christian, that those who aren't pro-life (again about half, most of
whom aren't Catholic) aren't Christian, etc.

This nation was founded by men who (most of them anyway) belonged
to the faith.

No. Most of the leaders among the Founders were rationalist Deists,
men who believed in a clockmaker Creator-God who was not actively
involved in their daily lives, and not the Living Christ.

Every single piece of coinage and paper money minted
has "In God We Trust" on it.

Which the court has rubbed to be "ceremonial deism", i.e. it is
permitted ONLY because it doesn't really mean anything.

Were you always this delusional?

--
Graham


Your chamber is empty but you keep pulling the trigger.

Gray Shockley
Vicksburg, MS

On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 6:36:10 -0600, Graham wrote
(in message ) :

Bob LeChevalier wrote in message
. ..
(Graham) wrote:
Don't forget Q, this is still a very Christian nation (over 85%).

No it isn't. And the "85%" is true only when it is useful to your
politics. The rest of the time, the fundies claim that Catholics
aren't Christian, that those who voted for Kerry (roughly half) aren't
Christian, that those who aren't pro-life (again about half, most of
whom aren't Catholic) aren't Christian, etc.

This nation was founded by men who (most of them anyway) belonged
to the faith.

No. Most of the leaders among the Founders were rationalist Deists,
men who believed in a clockmaker Creator-God who was not actively
involved in their daily lives, and not the Living Christ.

Every single piece of coinage and paper money minted
has "In God We Trust" on it.

Which the court has rubbed to be "ceremonial deism", i.e. it is
permitted ONLY because it doesn't really mean anything.

Were you always this delusional?

--
Graham




google:

Results 1 - 10 of about 1,300 for +"ceremonial deism" +money.

Gray Shockley wrote

Your chamber is empty but you keep pulling the trigger.

Where'd you pick that up? Is it supposed to be clever and witty?

You leftist misfits are a dime a dozen. You all crawled out from
under the same rock; and most come from a "Christian" childhood,
just like you. Listen, just because you came from scum who called
themselves Christian doesn't mean they're all that way.

Here's a reality check for ya: The WORLD population is fully
ONE THIRD Christian! That means that one out of every THREE
humans on Earth belongs to the faith. It is BY FAR the largest
religion on Earth, #2 is far behind. This nation has "In God
We Trust" on every coin and piece of paper currency minted; Congress
opens every session with prayer to the Christian God; our dating
system is based on the birth of Jesus Christ; Christmas is, by
far, the biggest holiday of the year; even your darlings the Clintons
pray to the Christian God, so get over it. Are these facts too much
for your little leftist brains to accept?

If you like to appear stupid, I guess that's your business.

--
Graham