Sudden violent behaviour

I have a 13 year-old son from a previous marriage, and a 7 year-old
stepson with my common-law husband.

I'll give a quick precis of the history: when James was about 1 (approx
6 years ago this summer) his parents separated. They were divorced in
October of last year after living apart for 5 years. When he was about
2 or 2 1/2 his daycare provider returned to live in England, and his
best friend was the nanny's son. Around the time of his 4th birthday (3
years ago) his grandmother, with whom he was very close, died suddenly.
I moved in with his father about 2 months after her passing.

James is, for the most part, a smart and good-natured boy. However,
since I moved in, he is becoming a bully and an instigator. By
instigator, I mean that he will say or do something intentionally,
especially toward my son, that elicits a reaction that will usually get
MY son into trouble. EG. he will push and shove and smack my son, sit
and lie on top of him, so that when my son either raises his voice
after repeaded telling him to back off and leave him alone or he will
be forced to physically move my stepson off of him. This usually means
that James will over-react to the raised voice or physical removal to
the extent that an adult will intervene, and generally take James' side
because they do not see James' deliberate actions designed to get my
son into trouble. I can say this is deliberate and what his intentions
are since I have witnessed this behaviour on MANY occasions, including
James' smirk of delight when his father reads my son the riot act (eg.
he's smaller than you, he's younger, he doesn't know any better, you
shouldn't react to him, don't yell at anyone etc.). This is making it
difficult for my son to get along with his stepbrother, and for me to
do anything about since it appears my DH and his whole family take
James' side (THEY have NEVER witnessed James' instigation efforts that
I know of).

He does NOT pull this crap with his stepdad and stepsisters. Apparently
he gets along JUST fine with them, but the girls are 8 and 11.

Last week Thursday, he got an "unofficial" suspension from school for
1) not working quietly while the rest of the class was, 2) disturbing
the other students, 3) not following the teacher's instructions and
continuing to "sing" instead of working quietly and 4) singing (when he
began again after being told to stop) about how "children respect their
teachers by killing them".

My DH arranged a meeting with James' teacher the following day for
yesterday (Wednesday). In the MEANTIME, James received another,
"official" suspension after morning recess YESTERDAY, prior to the 2:45
meeting already arranged.

According to the teachers, on the way back into the school after
recess, he smacked one classmate in the head hard enough to leave a
welt on her scalp, and yanked the scrunchie out of another girl's hair,
and tore out some of her hair extensions (ok what 7 year-old girl has
HAIR EXTENSIONS!!).

When confronted by both his parents, he said that he did not smack
anyone and did not deliberately pull the other girl's scrunchie and
hair. He said he was horsing around and "patting them on the head" and
the hair pulling was an accident.

Our school district has a zero tolerance policy regarding violence and
his next infraction will mean his expulsion from the school, and
possibly from the district board. That leaves us with 2 options: 1)
private school which neither his father and I, nor his mom and stepdad
can afford or 2) home schooling, which financially none of us can
afford either.

His acting out in school has been becoming progressively worse since
Junior Kindergarten, but has normally been limited to fidgeting,
talking and blurting out answers. DH and I have been very careful as to
what is in the food he eats as he has inherited his father's
sensitivity to artificial additives in foods. This includes colourings,
flavourings, artificial sweeteners and "caramel colouring". His father
is also adult ADD, and I suspect James is also. But this behaviour is
bordering on SEVERE ODD (opposition defiant disorder) and I am worried
that he may be heading for a diagnosis of borderline personality
disorder.

Up until now I was writing off the fidgeting etc. as that he had
inherited his father's hyperactivity, and the scrapping with my son as
a stepsibling version of rivalry between same-sex sibs. Now, I am not
so sure, and I wonder if this child has an inherent mean streak.

My DH has approached his family doctor, on this and other issues, and
he is no help whatsoever. He even refused to refer us to a pediatrician
regarding another serious issue (continuing to wet the bed, and BM
accidents up until this spring at age 6 1/2). We had to find our own.
NOW it seems that the pediatrician has moved her practice to the US and
has not referred her patients to another doctor in our area. We have
been looking for a way to get him in to see a psychiatrist or
psychologist, but we have had little luck without a referral from his
familiy doctor or pediatrician.

Any feedback/ideas/approaches are greatly appreciated.

I'm so sorry that you need to deal with this situaton, but the FIRST
thing you need to do is get all the parents on the same page. This
child's behavior needs to be modified and his father making excuses
for him just enables the negative behavior to continue.

There are a couple of things you may wish to try... in tandem, really,
but it is a behavior modification exercise which can oftentimes be
successful. That is, unless the problem is organic... then medicine
may be needed. But it is always good to try the non-invasive stuff
first.

Your stepson appears to be exhibiting a lot of attention seeking
behavior. Sure, he may get into trouble, but he also gets attention.
Children often don't care what type of attention they get as long as
they get attention. The goal is to get them to seek positive
atttention rather than negative. Make sure everyone is on board,
including teachers and caregivers. Find ways to praise him or reward
him for desired behavior. Believe me, there are many times in a day
where a child can do something that we take for granted, but can be
praised. Eliminate, as much as possible, negative attention. If he
is harming people or property, simply take him by the hand and put him
in his room calmly... nothing needs to be said other than he will
remain in his room until you tell him to come out. Discuss WHY this
is happening at a time OTHER than when he is exhibiting negative
behavior. The goal is to eliminate attention received for bad
behavior and encourage him to seek positive attention.

Rewards for good behavior are often difficult for monetary reasons;
however, if you remove all toys and priviledges and allow him to EARN
these things with positive behavior, it will cost nothing. Sometimes
the reward can be a favorite toy and other times the reward can be an
extra half hour of TV. Be very careful about taking something AWAY
because of negative behavior... try to keep things leaning toward the
positive.

Just to let you know, your second paragraph makes attention-getting
behavior problems seem most likely. He may even be pushing the limits
to prove to himself that no one loves him because everybody goes away.
I DO think this is manageable with persistance and continuity. As
hard as it may be, try to get your 13 year old to understand what you
are doing and for him to not react as expected (I know, a lot to ask
from a 13 year old). But explain to him that this is for everyone's
sake and he can be a big part of helping his step-brother behave more
appropriately.

Good luck.

On 13 Oct 2005 09:13:30 -0700, "Stevie" wrote:

I have a 13 year-old son from a previous marriage, and a 7 year-old
stepson with my common-law husband.

I'll give a quick precis of the history: when James was about 1 (approx
6 years ago this summer) his parents separated. They were divorced in
October of last year after living apart for 5 years. When he was about
2 or 2 1/2 his daycare provider returned to live in England, and his
best friend was the nanny's son. Around the time of his 4th birthday (3
years ago) his grandmother, with whom he was very close, died suddenly.
I moved in with his father about 2 months after her passing.

James is, for the most part, a smart and good-natured boy. However,
since I moved in, he is becoming a bully and an instigator. By
instigator, I mean that he will say or do something intentionally,
especially toward my son, that elicits a reaction that will usually get
MY son into trouble. EG. he will push and shove and smack my son, sit
and lie on top of him, so that when my son either raises his voice
after repeaded telling him to back off and leave him alone or he will
be forced to physically move my stepson off of him. This usually means
that James will over-react to the raised voice or physical removal to
the extent that an adult will intervene, and generally take James' side
because they do not see James' deliberate actions designed to get my
son into trouble. I can say this is deliberate and what his intentions
are since I have witnessed this behaviour on MANY occasions, including
James' smirk of delight when his father reads my son the riot act (eg.
he's smaller than you, he's younger, he doesn't know any better, you
shouldn't react to him, don't yell at anyone etc.). This is making it
difficult for my son to get along with his stepbrother, and for me to
do anything about since it appears my DH and his whole family take
James' side (THEY have NEVER witnessed James' instigation efforts that
I know of).

He does NOT pull this crap with his stepdad and stepsisters. Apparently
he gets along JUST fine with them, but the girls are 8 and 11.

Last week Thursday, he got an "unofficial" suspension from school for
1) not working quietly while the rest of the class was, 2) disturbing
the other students, 3) not following the teacher's instructions and
continuing to "sing" instead of working quietly and 4) singing (when he
began again after being told to stop) about how "children respect their
teachers by killing them".

My DH arranged a meeting with James' teacher the following day for
yesterday (Wednesday). In the MEANTIME, James received another,
"official" suspension after morning recess YESTERDAY, prior to the 2:45
meeting already arranged.

According to the teachers, on the way back into the school after
recess, he smacked one classmate in the head hard enough to leave a
welt on her scalp, and yanked the scrunchie out of another girl's hair,
and tore out some of her hair extensions (ok what 7 year-old girl has
HAIR EXTENSIONS!!).

When confronted by both his parents, he said that he did not smack
anyone and did not deliberately pull the other girl's scrunchie and
hair. He said he was horsing around and "patting them on the head" and
the hair pulling was an accident.

Our school district has a zero tolerance policy regarding violence and
his next infraction will mean his expulsion from the school, and
possibly from the district board. That leaves us with 2 options: 1)
private school which neither his father and I, nor his mom and stepdad
can afford or 2) home schooling, which financially none of us can
afford either.

His acting out in school has been becoming progressively worse since
Junior Kindergarten, but has normally been limited to fidgeting,
talking and blurting out answers. DH and I have been very careful as to
what is in the food he eats as he has inherited his father's
sensitivity to artificial additives in foods. This includes colourings,
flavourings, artificial sweeteners and "caramel colouring". His father
is also adult ADD, and I suspect James is also. But this behaviour is
bordering on SEVERE ODD (opposition defiant disorder) and I am worried
that he may be heading for a diagnosis of borderline personality
disorder.

Up until now I was writing off the fidgeting etc. as that he had
inherited his father's hyperactivity, and the scrapping with my son as
a stepsibling version of rivalry between same-sex sibs. Now, I am not
so sure, and I wonder if this child has an inherent mean streak.

My DH has approached his family doctor, on this and other issues, and
he is no help whatsoever. He even refused to refer us to a pediatrician
regarding another serious issue (continuing to wet the bed, and BM
accidents up until this spring at age 6 1/2). We had to find our own.
NOW it seems that the pediatrician has moved her practice to the US and
has not referred her patients to another doctor in our area. We have
been looking for a way to get him in to see a psychiatrist or
psychologist, but we have had little luck without a referral from his
familiy doctor or pediatrician.

Any feedback/ideas/approaches are greatly appreciated.

Beverly wrote:
I'm so sorry that you need to deal with this situaton, but the FIRST
thing you need to do is get all the parents on the same page. This
child's behavior needs to be modified and his father making excuses
for him just enables the negative behavior to continue.

I don't believe it is his FATHER who is enabling here. It is James'
aunts who have 1) no children, and 2) have one son who is now 24 and
has never behaved like this.

What I HAVE noticed, and in my own son too, is that what he eats REALLY
does effect his behaviour. I can guarantee you his worst acting out is
when his mother has fed him breakfast and/or packed his lunch. She
doesn't read labels as closely as DH and I do. James gets NOTHING
artificial. If I have to pay DOUBLE, he gets all-natural and/or
organic.

There are a couple of things you may wish to try... in tandem, really,
but it is a behavior modification exercise which can oftentimes be
successful. That is, unless the problem is organic... then medicine
may be needed.

Not bloody likely. DH was on Ritalin in the '70's and was overdosed. He
was on 300 MG per day... He would end up in a corner of his room,
rocking back and forth screaming and crying. When it wore off he was
like a pingpong ball. When my son was 8 he was on 25 mg a day and STILL
not manageable. Medication of ANY kind is not an option.

But it is always good to try the non-invasive stuff first.

Your stepson appears to be exhibiting a lot of attention seeking
behavior. Sure, he may get into trouble, but he also gets attention.
Children often don't care what type of attention they get as long as
they get attention. The goal is to get them to seek positive
atttention rather than negative. Make sure everyone is on board,
including teachers and caregivers.

Fat chance. DH has already had more than enough meetings with the
school, James' teacher and the special ed teacher. They want all the
kids to fit into the same round hole. James is too much work.

The Aunt is no help either. She's 55 and never had kids of her own.
SHE's the one making excuses for James, rationalizing, enabling and
rewarding bad behaviour. On Sunday we had our Thanksgiving (Canada) and
she gave him a bicycle (early birthday gift, he's 7 on the 18th). This
was AFTER the singsong about killing teachers, and she KNEW it. To
boot, James flung a slinky at his cousin (24 years old) and the cousin
has had to go to the eye surgeon because his cornea was scratched.
James denies it was deliberate. I believe otherwise.

As a result of the suspension from school his birthday party has been
cancelled. What parent in their right mind would let their kid go to
his party and risk getting hit or otherwise injured?

Find ways to praise him or reward
him for desired behavior. Believe me, there are many times in a day
where a child can do something that we take for granted, but can be
praised. Eliminate, as much as possible, negative attention. If he
is harming people or property, simply take him by the hand and put him
in his room calmly... nothing needs to be said other than he will
remain in his room until you tell him to come out. Discuss WHY this
is happening at a time OTHER than when he is exhibiting negative
behavior. The goal is to eliminate attention received for bad
behavior and encourage him to seek positive attention.

Frankly I offered the opinion that he IS seeking attention. But why is
beyond DH and I. James gets TONS of positive attention, AT HOME. But
not in school. He is a very bright boy, and is bored easily. He reads
at a grade 3 level and does math above grade 2 level. Problem is,
because of the moderate ADHD, he doesn't see the point behind having to
PROVE he can do it by putting it on paper. To him it is a waste of
time.

I think he did it to get a day off school and stay the day with his
Auntie who thinks that "he's still reeling from the separation and
divorce" of his parents, 6 years ago, when he was an INFANT. He doesn't
know any different.

Rewards for good behavior are often difficult for monetary reasons;
however, if you remove all toys and priviledges and allow him to EARN
these things with positive behavior, it will cost nothing. Sometimes
the reward can be a favorite toy and other times the reward can be an
extra half hour of TV. Be very careful about taking something AWAY
because of negative behavior... try to keep things leaning toward the
positive.

We are moving to a new house the end of next month and his toys and
books will be in a downstairs playroom. He won't have them in his
bedroom any more. I will suggest to DH that he put James' toys away and
lock them up. Giving them BACK and putting them in the playroom for
his use, but only when he earns them.

Just to let you know, your second paragraph makes attention-getting
behavior problems seem most likely. He may even be pushing the limits
to prove to himself that no one loves him because everybody goes away.
I DO think this is manageable with persistance and continuity. As
hard as it may be, try to get your 13 year old to understand what you
are doing and for him to not react as expected (I know, a lot to ask
from a 13 year old). But explain to him that this is for everyone's
sake and he can be a big part of helping his step-brother behave more
appropriately.

Good luck.

My stepson has ADHD an I found a couple of great sites that I can send
IF you are interested. Most of them are about alternative treatment.
We also did not want to go the pil popping way so I did a hell of a lot
of info grabing.

In the mean time - hang in there.

I did lots of information grabbing before and after my son was
diagnosed moderate ADHD and moderate ODD.

I don't think this acting out is anything to do with ADHD. I think it
is a kid who thinks 1) he doesn't get enough attention, 2) is getting
tired being shuttled back and forth from mom to dad to mom (joint
custody), 3) brighter than average and getting bored in school (no
gifted program till 4th grade).

What I am hoping to find is methods of breaking this "bad attention"
seeking behaviour. I know that kids don't recognize the difference
between good and bad attention, because ANY is better than none or the
perception of none/not enough.

I don't agree with the method of simply ignoring the bad behaviour,
especially since it has now gone beyond pesting his stepbrother and
fidgeting in school to physical violence against classmates.

I know I will be flamed for this, I'm getting out my asbestos suit. I
was spanked as a child, although I do believe my father took it WAY too
far and it went on too long (I was 11 1/2 when my mom put the brakes on
it). I don't believe at quick swat on the backside as an attention
grabber is a bad thing. I DO NOT believe in taking it beyond a couple
pops on the butt. My contention here is not to cause pain but to get
the child's attention, and NOT before attempting to verbalize a warning
prior. EG. If you don't knock that off RIGHT NOW you will get a smack
on the butt and go to your room (or I'll take away that toy, or you
will not get to watch tv, or you won't get that DVD you've been asking
for). Usually the humiliation of getting the smack (or threat thereof)
was sufficient to get my son's attention (except during the throes of
his ADHD one Saturday and jumping on the couch). But that's my kid and
not my stepson.

I have tried talking to both boys, putting them in corners, taking away
privileges, time outs, taking away toys (for the purpose of taking away
privileges, and to have nothing to play with during timeouts),
isolating them (their room). Sometimes that just does not work... I
wonder if these dissenters of corporeal punishment have kids of their
own sometimes... I notice a HUGE difference between kids who get
spanked (I don't mean WAILING on them) and those who don't. Please
note: I do not approve of ABUSE disguised as discipline. More than one
or two quick swats on the butt is abusive, and I don't approve of
smacking hands or faces, either.

Stevie

Mommy2 wrote:
My stepson has ADHD an I found a couple of great sites that I can send
IF you are interested. Most of them are about alternative treatment.
We also did not want to go the pil popping way so I did a hell of a lot
of info grabing.

In the mean time - hang in there.

"Stevie" wrote in message
ups.com...
I have a 13 year-old son from a previous marriage, and a 7 year-old
stepson with my common-law husband.

I'll give a quick precis of the history: when James was about 1 (approx
6 years ago this summer) his parents separated. They were divorced in
October of last year after living apart for 5 years. When he was about
2 or 2 1/2 his daycare provider returned to live in England, and his
best friend was the nanny's son. Around the time of his 4th birthday (3
years ago) his grandmother, with whom he was very close, died suddenly.
I moved in with his father about 2 months after her passing.

James is, for the most part, a smart and good-natured boy. However,
since I moved in, he is becoming a bully and an instigator. By
instigator, I mean that he will say or do something intentionally,
especially toward my son, that elicits a reaction that will usually get
MY son into trouble. EG. he will push and shove and smack my son, sit
and lie on top of him, so that when my son either raises his voice
after repeaded telling him to back off and leave him alone or he will
be forced to physically move my stepson off of him. This usually means
that James will over-react to the raised voice or physical removal to
the extent that an adult will intervene, and generally take James' side
because they do not see James' deliberate actions designed to get my
son into trouble. I can say this is deliberate and what his intentions
are since I have witnessed this behaviour on MANY occasions, including
James' smirk of delight when his father reads my son the riot act (eg.
he's smaller than you, he's younger, he doesn't know any better, you
shouldn't react to him, don't yell at anyone etc.). This is making it
difficult for my son to get along with his stepbrother, and for me to
do anything about since it appears my DH and his whole family take
James' side (THEY have NEVER witnessed James' instigation efforts that
I know of).

He does NOT pull this crap with his stepdad and stepsisters. Apparently
he gets along JUST fine with them, but the girls are 8 and 11.

Last week Thursday, he got an "unofficial" suspension from school for
1) not working quietly while the rest of the class was, 2) disturbing
the other students, 3) not following the teacher's instructions and
continuing to "sing" instead of working quietly and 4) singing (when he
began again after being told to stop) about how "children respect their
teachers by killing them".

My DH arranged a meeting with James' teacher the following day for
yesterday (Wednesday). In the MEANTIME, James received another,
"official" suspension after morning recess YESTERDAY, prior to the 2:45
meeting already arranged.

According to the teachers, on the way back into the school after
recess, he smacked one classmate in the head hard enough to leave a
welt on her scalp, and yanked the scrunchie out of another girl's hair,
and tore out some of her hair extensions (ok what 7 year-old girl has
HAIR EXTENSIONS!!).

When confronted by both his parents, he said that he did not smack
anyone and did not deliberately pull the other girl's scrunchie and
hair. He said he was horsing around and "patting them on the head" and
the hair pulling was an accident.

Our school district has a zero tolerance policy regarding violence and
his next infraction will mean his expulsion from the school, and
possibly from the district board. That leaves us with 2 options: 1)
private school which neither his father and I, nor his mom and stepdad
can afford or 2) home schooling, which financially none of us can
afford either.

His acting out in school has been becoming progressively worse since
Junior Kindergarten, but has normally been limited to fidgeting,
talking and blurting out answers. DH and I have been very careful as to
what is in the food he eats as he has inherited his father's
sensitivity to artificial additives in foods. This includes colourings,
flavourings, artificial sweeteners and "caramel colouring". His father
is also adult ADD, and I suspect James is also. But this behaviour is
bordering on SEVERE ODD (opposition defiant disorder) and I am worried
that he may be heading for a diagnosis of borderline personality
disorder.

Up until now I was writing off the fidgeting etc. as that he had
inherited his father's hyperactivity, and the scrapping with my son as
a stepsibling version of rivalry between same-sex sibs. Now, I am not
so sure, and I wonder if this child has an inherent mean streak.

My DH has approached his family doctor, on this and other issues, and
he is no help whatsoever. He even refused to refer us to a pediatrician
regarding another serious issue (continuing to wet the bed, and BM
accidents up until this spring at age 6 1/2). We had to find our own.
NOW it seems that the pediatrician has moved her practice to the US and
has not referred her patients to another doctor in our area. We have
been looking for a way to get him in to see a psychiatrist or
psychologist, but we have had little luck without a referral from his
familiy doctor or pediatrician.

Any feedback/ideas/approaches are greatly appreciated.


-- Kid needs Ridalin...Vitiamin "R"

"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is
proof against all
arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance--that
principle is contempt prior to investigation."
--Herbert Spencer