protective order scam

On 4 Dec 2006, 0:- wrote:


Doan wrote:
On Thu, 23 Nov 2006, Ron wrote:


"Michael©" wrote in message
. 97.140...
"Ron" wrote in
:


"Doug" wrote in message
...
Absolutely not. You can tell the absolute truth and lose a suit
because you chose to tell it to the detriment and loss of the
complainant.

Hi, Kane,

Nope. Truth is an absolute defense against libel. If the defendant
proves the statement to be true in a libel suit, he prevails. Period.
Absolute defense.

If there is one thing you should have learned in posting to this news
group for as long as you have Doug, "Truth" is a matter of perspective.

Fact, on the other hand, is what is the ultimate defense.

Truth is an absolute defense in the United States and Canada to
defamation
(libel and slander).

Un uh, Michael. That's a myth based on folks ignoring qualifiers you'll
nearly always see in the authorities referenced, that actually say,
"in almost every instance truth is an absolute defense."

Michael is correct. Truth is an absolute defense in libel suits. That
the truth happens to cause detriment to the plaintiff does not in any
manner, shape or form mitigate the absolute defense of truth.

No Doug, its not. Fact is. Truth is variable.

If truth is a variable, it is not a fact.

LMAO

=====================================
truth

+ noun (pl. truths /trooths, troo&ulth;z/) 1 the quality or state of
being true. 2 (also the truth) that which is true as opposed to false. 3
a fact or belief that is accepted as true.

ORIGIN Old English.

Oxford University Press, 2006
=====================================

The truth is a fact.

Therefore, you contradicted yourself above.



Ron


Actually mikey, I didnt, and you proved my point. "3 a fact or belief that
is accepted as true."

Ron

Fact and truth are synonymous, Ron.

Yours is a fundamentalist claim, Doan.

Humans aren't that simple. And after all, it's humans that make such
rules, not gods.

And the courts are ruled by human, not god!

Doan

So, proof please.

Showing universal agreement with your claim, if you don't mind.

Show me a case where the truth is a not defense for libel, if you can.

Doan


For instance, we see 'truth' mentioned in the definition of 'fact"
below:

fact /fækt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[fakt]
Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. something that actually exists; reality; truth: Your fears have no
basis in fact.
2. something known to exist or to have happened: Space travel is now a
fact.
3. a truth known by actual experience or observation; something known
to be true: Scientists gather facts about plant growth.
4. something said to be true or supposed to have happened: The facts
given by the witness are highly questionable.

But in looking at a list of definitions of "truth" one finds departures
from your claim in fact.

truth /truθ/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[trooth]
Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation,
–noun, plural truths /truðz, truθs/ Pronunciation Key - Show
Spelled Pronunciation[troothz, trooths] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA
Pronunciation.
1. the true or actual state of a matter: He tried to find out the
truth.
2. conformity with fact or reality; verity: the truth of a statement.
3. a verified or indisputable fact, proposition, principle, or the
like: mathematical truths.
4. the state or character of being true.
5. actuality or actual existence.
6. an obvious or accepted fact; truism; platitude.
7. honesty; integrity; truthfulness.
8. (often initial capital letter) ideal or fundamental reality apart
from and transcending perceived experience: the basic truths of life.
9. agreement with a standard or original.
10. accuracy, as of position or adjustment.
11. Archaic. fidelity or constancy.
—Idiom
12. in truth, in reality; in fact; actually: In truth, moral decay
hastened the decline of the Roman Empire.

See numbers 8 and 9 above?

And number 6?

While you can claim YOUR definition is one or more of those that agree
with you, you cannot escape the "fact," and the "truth," that others
obviously do not agree with you.

Enjoy.

Doan wrote:
On 4 Dec 2006, 0:- wrote:

Doan wrote:
On Thu, 23 Nov 2006, Ron wrote:

"Michael©" wrote in message
. 97.140...
"Ron" wrote in
:

"Doug" wrote in message
...
Absolutely not. You can tell the absolute truth and lose a suit
because you chose to tell it to the detriment and loss of the
complainant.
Hi, Kane,

Nope. Truth is an absolute defense against libel. If the defendant
proves the statement to be true in a libel suit, he prevails. Period.
Absolute defense.
If there is one thing you should have learned in posting to this news
group for as long as you have Doug, "Truth" is a matter of perspective.

Fact, on the other hand, is what is the ultimate defense.

Truth is an absolute defense in the United States and Canada to
defamation
(libel and slander).
Un uh, Michael. That's a myth based on folks ignoring qualifiers you'll
nearly always see in the authorities referenced, that actually say,
"in almost every instance truth is an absolute defense."
Michael is correct. Truth is an absolute defense in libel suits. That
the truth happens to cause detriment to the plaintiff does not in any
manner, shape or form mitigate the absolute defense of truth.
No Doug, its not. Fact is. Truth is variable.
If truth is a variable, it is not a fact.

LMAO

=====================================
truth

+ noun (pl. truths /trooths, troo&ulth;z/) 1 the quality or state of
being true. 2 (also the truth) that which is true as opposed to false. 3
a fact or belief that is accepted as true.

ORIGIN Old English.

Oxford University Press, 2006
=====================================

The truth is a fact.

Therefore, you contradicted yourself above.


Ron

Actually mikey, I didnt, and you proved my point. "3 a fact or belief that
is accepted as true."

Ron
Fact and truth are synonymous, Ron.
Yours is a fundamentalist claim, Doan.

Humans aren't that simple. And after all, it's humans that make such
rules, not gods.

And the courts are ruled by human, not god!

Doan
So, proof please.

Showing universal agreement with your claim, if you don't mind.

Show me a case where the truth is a not defense for libel, if you can.

You are avoiding my question.

Answer mine, and not only will I show you, I point to my post where I
already showed it.

(The key is context, or as the law puts it, connotation).

Now, unless you wish to be ignored some more, Doan, answer to what I
actually asked. YOU are asking what has already been answered.

"So, proof please.

Showing universal agreement with your claim, if you don't mind."

What's wrong, Doan, going to dodge and run again as you did with the
question about The Line?

0:-






Doan

For instance, we see 'truth' mentioned in the definition of 'fact"
below:

fact /fækt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[fakt]
Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. something that actually exists; reality; truth: Your fears have no
basis in fact.
2. something known to exist or to have happened: Space travel is now a
fact.
3. a truth known by actual experience or observation; something known
to be true: Scientists gather facts about plant growth.
4. something said to be true or supposed to have happened: The facts
given by the witness are highly questionable.

But in looking at a list of definitions of "truth" one finds departures
from your claim in fact.

truth /tru?/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[trooth]
Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation,
–noun, plural truths /truðz, tru?s/ Pronunciation Key - Show
Spelled Pronunciation[troothz, trooths] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA
Pronunciation.
1. the true or actual state of a matter: He tried to find out the
truth.
2. conformity with fact or reality; verity: the truth of a statement.
3. a verified or indisputable fact, proposition, principle, or the
like: mathematical truths.
4. the state or character of being true.
5. actuality or actual existence.
6. an obvious or accepted fact; truism; platitude.
7. honesty; integrity; truthfulness.
8. (often initial capital letter) ideal or fundamental reality apart
from and transcending perceived experience: the basic truths of life.
9. agreement with a standard or original.
10. accuracy, as of position or adjustment.
11. Archaic. fidelity or constancy.
—Idiom
12. in truth, in reality; in fact; actually: In truth, moral decay
hastened the decline of the Roman Empire.

See numbers 8 and 9 above?

And number 6?

While you can claim YOUR definition is one or more of those that agree
with you, you cannot escape the "fact," and the "truth," that others
obviously do not agree with you.

Enjoy.

"Doan" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 23 Nov 2006, Ron wrote:


"Michael©" wrote in message
. 97.140...
"Ron" wrote in
:


"Doug" wrote in message
...
Absolutely not. You can tell the absolute truth and lose a suit
because you chose to tell it to the detriment and loss of the
complainant.

Hi, Kane,

Nope. Truth is an absolute defense against libel. If the defendant
proves the statement to be true in a libel suit, he prevails. Period.
Absolute defense.

If there is one thing you should have learned in posting to this news
group for as long as you have Doug, "Truth" is a matter of perspective.

Fact, on the other hand, is what is the ultimate defense.

Truth is an absolute defense in the United States and Canada to
defamation
(libel and slander).

Un uh, Michael. That's a myth based on folks ignoring qualifiers
you'll
nearly always see in the authorities referenced, that actually say,
"in almost every instance truth is an absolute defense."

Michael is correct. Truth is an absolute defense in libel suits.
That
the truth happens to cause detriment to the plaintiff does not in any
manner, shape or form mitigate the absolute defense of truth.

No Doug, its not. Fact is. Truth is variable.

If truth is a variable, it is not a fact.

LMAO

=====================================
truth

+ noun (pl. truths /trooths, troo&ulth;z/) 1 the quality or state of
being true. 2 (also the truth) that which is true as opposed to false.
3
a fact or belief that is accepted as true.

ORIGIN Old English.

Oxford University Press, 2006
=====================================

The truth is a fact.

Therefore, you contradicted yourself above.



Ron


Actually mikey, I didnt, and you proved my point. "3 a fact or belief
that
is accepted as true."

Ron

Fact and truth are synonymous, Ron.

Doan

No Doan, they aren't. Fact is immutable, truth is perception.

Why are so many people have problems with this, its really a pretty simple
concept. Facts do not change. Truth does. Therefore Truth is perception.

Ron

"Doan" wrote in message
...
On 4 Dec 2006, 0:- wrote:


Doan wrote:
On Thu, 23 Nov 2006, Ron wrote:


"Michael©" wrote in message
. 97.140...
"Ron" wrote in
:


"Doug" wrote in message
...
Absolutely not. You can tell the absolute truth and lose a suit
because you chose to tell it to the detriment and loss of the
complainant.

Hi, Kane,

Nope. Truth is an absolute defense against libel. If the
defendant
proves the statement to be true in a libel suit, he prevails.
Period.
Absolute defense.

If there is one thing you should have learned in posting to this
news
group for as long as you have Doug, "Truth" is a matter of
perspective.

Fact, on the other hand, is what is the ultimate defense.

Truth is an absolute defense in the United States and Canada to
defamation
(libel and slander).

Un uh, Michael. That's a myth based on folks ignoring qualifiers
you'll
nearly always see in the authorities referenced, that actually
say,
"in almost every instance truth is an absolute defense."

Michael is correct. Truth is an absolute defense in libel suits.
That
the truth happens to cause detriment to the plaintiff does not in
any
manner, shape or form mitigate the absolute defense of truth.

No Doug, its not. Fact is. Truth is variable.

If truth is a variable, it is not a fact.

LMAO

=====================================
truth

+ noun (pl. truths /trooths, troo&ulth;z/) 1 the quality or state
of
being true. 2 (also the truth) that which is true as opposed to
false. 3
a fact or belief that is accepted as true.

ORIGIN Old English.

Oxford University Press, 2006
=====================================

The truth is a fact.

Therefore, you contradicted yourself above.



Ron


Actually mikey, I didnt, and you proved my point. "3 a fact or belief
that
is accepted as true."

Ron

Fact and truth are synonymous, Ron.

Yours is a fundamentalist claim, Doan.

Humans aren't that simple. And after all, it's humans that make such
rules, not gods.

And the courts are ruled by human, not god!

Doan

So, proof please.

Showing universal agreement with your claim, if you don't mind.

Show me a case where the truth is a not defense for libel, if you can.

Doan

Anytime truth is not factual it is not a defense of any kind. What you
believe to be truth may indeed not be based on facts. Facts are always the
truth, but sometimes the truth is not factual.

Ron



For instance, we see 'truth' mentioned in the definition of 'fact"
below:

fact /fækt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[fakt]
Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
â?"noun
1. something that actually exists; reality; truth: Your fears have no
basis in fact.
2. something known to exist or to have happened: Space travel is now a
fact.
3. a truth known by actual experience or observation; something known
to be true: Scientists gather facts about plant growth.
4. something said to be true or supposed to have happened: The facts
given by the witness are highly questionable.

But in looking at a list of definitions of "truth" one finds departures
from your claim in fact.

truth /truθ/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[trooth]
Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation,
â?"noun, plural truths /truðz, truθs/ Pronunciation Key - Show
Spelled Pronunciation[troothz, trooths] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA
Pronunciation.
1. the true or actual state of a matter: He tried to find out the
truth.
2. conformity with fact or reality; verity: the truth of a statement.
3. a verified or indisputable fact, proposition, principle, or the
like: mathematical truths.
4. the state or character of being true.
5. actuality or actual existence.
6. an obvious or accepted fact; truism; platitude.
7. honesty; integrity; truthfulness.
8. (often initial capital letter) ideal or fundamental reality apart
from and transcending perceived experience: the basic truths of life.
9. agreement with a standard or original.
10. accuracy, as of position or adjustment.
11. Archaic. fidelity or constancy.
â?"Idiom
12. in truth, in reality; in fact; actually: In truth, moral decay
hastened the decline of the Roman Empire.

See numbers 8 and 9 above?

And number 6?

While you can claim YOUR definition is one or more of those that agree
with you, you cannot escape the "fact," and the "truth," that others
obviously do not agree with you.

Enjoy.

On Mon, 4 Dec 2006, Ron wrote:


"Doan" wrote in message
...
On 4 Dec 2006, 0:- wrote:


Doan wrote:
On Thu, 23 Nov 2006, Ron wrote:


"Michael©" wrote in message
. 97.140...
"Ron" wrote in
:


"Doug" wrote in message
...
Absolutely not. You can tell the absolute truth and lose a suit
because you chose to tell it to the detriment and loss of the
complainant.

Hi, Kane,

Nope. Truth is an absolute defense against libel. If the
defendant
proves the statement to be true in a libel suit, he prevails.
Period.
Absolute defense.

If there is one thing you should have learned in posting to this
news
group for as long as you have Doug, "Truth" is a matter of
perspective.

Fact, on the other hand, is what is the ultimate defense.

Truth is an absolute defense in the United States and Canada to
defamation
(libel and slander).

Un uh, Michael. That's a myth based on folks ignoring qualifiers
you'll
nearly always see in the authorities referenced, that actually
say,
"in almost every instance truth is an absolute defense."

Michael is correct. Truth is an absolute defense in libel suits.
That
the truth happens to cause detriment to the plaintiff does not in
any
manner, shape or form mitigate the absolute defense of truth.

No Doug, its not. Fact is. Truth is variable.

If truth is a variable, it is not a fact.

LMAO

=====================================
truth

+ noun (pl. truths /trooths, troo&ulth;z/) 1 the quality or state
of
being true. 2 (also the truth) that which is true as opposed to
false. 3
a fact or belief that is accepted as true.

ORIGIN Old English.

Oxford University Press, 2006
=====================================

The truth is a fact.

Therefore, you contradicted yourself above.



Ron


Actually mikey, I didnt, and you proved my point. "3 a fact or belief
that
is accepted as true."

Ron

Fact and truth are synonymous, Ron.

Yours is a fundamentalist claim, Doan.

Humans aren't that simple. And after all, it's humans that make such
rules, not gods.

And the courts are ruled by human, not god!

Doan

So, proof please.

Showing universal agreement with your claim, if you don't mind.

Show me a case where the truth is a not defense for libel, if you can.

Doan

Anytime truth is not factual it is not a defense of any kind. What you
believe to be truth may indeed not be based on facts. Facts are always the
truth, but sometimes the truth is not factual.

Ron

If the truth is not factual then, by definition, it is not the truth!

Doan



For instance, we see 'truth' mentioned in the definition of 'fact"
below:

fact /fækt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[fakt]
Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
â?"noun
1. something that actually exists; reality; truth: Your fears have no
basis in fact.
2. something known to exist or to have happened: Space travel is now a
fact.
3. a truth known by actual experience or observation; something known
to be true: Scientists gather facts about plant growth.
4. something said to be true or supposed to have happened: The facts
given by the witness are highly questionable.

But in looking at a list of definitions of "truth" one finds departures
from your claim in fact.

truth /truθ/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[trooth]
Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation,
â?"noun, plural truths /truðz, truθs/ Pronunciation Key - Show
Spelled Pronunciation[troothz, trooths] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA
Pronunciation.
1. the true or actual state of a matter: He tried to find out the
truth.
2. conformity with fact or reality; verity: the truth of a statement.
3. a verified or indisputable fact, proposition, principle, or the
like: mathematical truths.
4. the state or character of being true.
5. actuality or actual existence.
6. an obvious or accepted fact; truism; platitude.
7. honesty; integrity; truthfulness.
8. (often initial capital letter) ideal or fundamental reality apart
from and transcending perceived experience: the basic truths of life.
9. agreement with a standard or original.
10. accuracy, as of position or adjustment.
11. Archaic. fidelity or constancy.
â?"Idiom
12. in truth, in reality; in fact; actually: In truth, moral decay
hastened the decline of the Roman Empire.

See numbers 8 and 9 above?

And number 6?

While you can claim YOUR definition is one or more of those that agree
with you, you cannot escape the "fact," and the "truth," that others
obviously do not agree with you.

Enjoy.

Doan:
All of this philosophical bickering about the meaning of truth
really shows just how insane these system sucks are.

It's SOPHISTRY.

It becomes truly dangerous when it comes to the
giant FRAUD that Juvenile Courts are.
They allow attitudes, opinion, lies, gossip and innuendo into court.

Administrative Law Juvenile Court processes decide
on major Constitutionally protected LIBERTY INTERESTS
and yet they do not follow legal standards intended to
protect those sacred LIBERTY INTERESTS.

In fact the LIBERTY INTERESTS at stake in Juvenile Court
have been compared to those involved in a MURDER TRIAL,
and so the standards and process should be closer to those.

The legal standard used is "preponderance" which means that if
more than half of the stuff CPS brings into court is negative, the
judge decides they own the family in question.
Caseworkers of course simply provide one-sided information.

This is considered a breach of due process
clause because it totally subverts the court.

In US Chapter 42 Section 1983 and 1987 law suits against the
agencies it is called a violation of the 6th amendment of the
US Constitution, "an abuse of the preponderance standard".

Even when Juvenile Court Judges see blatant evidence that
caseworkers in fact committed PERJURY, they do not
feel compelled to initiate investigation or prosecution.

Prosecutors don't want to prosecute their allies,
the caseworkers, and they have "descretion".

Clearly the "flexible truth" has infected even courts.


Ron wrote:
"Doan" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 23 Nov 2006, Ron wrote:


"Michael©" wrote in message
. 97.140...
"Ron" wrote in
:


"Doug" wrote in message
...
Absolutely not. You can tell the absolute truth and lose a suit
because you chose to tell it to the detriment and loss of the
complainant.

Hi, Kane,

Nope. Truth is an absolute defense against libel. If the defendant
proves the statement to be true in a libel suit, he prevails. Period.
Absolute defense.

If there is one thing you should have learned in posting to this news
group for as long as you have Doug, "Truth" is a matter of perspective.

Fact, on the other hand, is what is the ultimate defense.

Truth is an absolute defense in the United States and Canada to
defamation
(libel and slander).

Un uh, Michael. That's a myth based on folks ignoring qualifiers
you'll
nearly always see in the authorities referenced, that actually say,
"in almost every instance truth is an absolute defense."

Michael is correct. Truth is an absolute defense in libel suits.
That
the truth happens to cause detriment to the plaintiff does not in any
manner, shape or form mitigate the absolute defense of truth.

No Doug, its not. Fact is. Truth is variable.

If truth is a variable, it is not a fact.

LMAO

=====================================
truth

+ noun (pl. truths /trooths, troo&ulth;z/) 1 the quality or state of
being true. 2 (also the truth) that which is true as opposed to false.
3
a fact or belief that is accepted as true.

ORIGIN Old English.

Oxford University Press, 2006
=====================================

The truth is a fact.

Therefore, you contradicted yourself above.



Ron


Actually mikey, I didnt, and you proved my point. "3 a fact or belief
that
is accepted as true."

Ron

Fact and truth are synonymous, Ron.

Doan

No Doan, they aren't. Fact is immutable, truth is perception.

Why are so many people have problems with this, its really a pretty simple
concept. Facts do not change. Truth does. Therefore Truth is perception.

Ron

"Doan" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 4 Dec 2006, Ron wrote:


"Doan" wrote in message
...
On 4 Dec 2006, 0:- wrote:


Doan wrote:
On Thu, 23 Nov 2006, Ron wrote:


"Michael©" wrote in message
. 97.140...
"Ron" wrote in
:


"Doug" wrote in message
...
Absolutely not. You can tell the absolute truth and lose a
suit
because you chose to tell it to the detriment and loss of the
complainant.

Hi, Kane,

Nope. Truth is an absolute defense against libel. If the
defendant
proves the statement to be true in a libel suit, he prevails.
Period.
Absolute defense.

If there is one thing you should have learned in posting to this
news
group for as long as you have Doug, "Truth" is a matter of
perspective.

Fact, on the other hand, is what is the ultimate defense.

Truth is an absolute defense in the United States and Canada
to
defamation
(libel and slander).

Un uh, Michael. That's a myth based on folks ignoring qualifiers
you'll
nearly always see in the authorities referenced, that actually
say,
"in almost every instance truth is an absolute defense."

Michael is correct. Truth is an absolute defense in libel
suits.
That
the truth happens to cause detriment to the plaintiff does not
in
any
manner, shape or form mitigate the absolute defense of truth.

No Doug, its not. Fact is. Truth is variable.

If truth is a variable, it is not a fact.

LMAO

=====================================
truth

+ noun (pl. truths /trooths, troo&ulth;z/) 1 the quality or state
of
being true. 2 (also the truth) that which is true as opposed to
false. 3
a fact or belief that is accepted as true.

ORIGIN Old English.

Oxford University Press, 2006
=====================================

The truth is a fact.

Therefore, you contradicted yourself above.



Ron


Actually mikey, I didnt, and you proved my point. "3 a fact or
belief
that
is accepted as true."

Ron

Fact and truth are synonymous, Ron.

Yours is a fundamentalist claim, Doan.

Humans aren't that simple. And after all, it's humans that make such
rules, not gods.

And the courts are ruled by human, not god!

Doan

So, proof please.

Showing universal agreement with your claim, if you don't mind.

Show me a case where the truth is a not defense for libel, if you can.

Doan

Anytime truth is not factual it is not a defense of any kind. What you
believe to be truth may indeed not be based on facts. Facts are always
the
truth, but sometimes the truth is not factual.

Ron

If the truth is not factual then, by definition, it is not the truth!

Doan

As I have been saying, Truth is perception. Truth can be based on faith,
fact cannot. Therefore truth is not always factual and can change depending
on the individuals perspective. Fact is immutable, it cannot be changed.

Ron




For instance, we see 'truth' mentioned in the definition of 'fact"
below:

fact /fækt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[fakt]
Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
â?"noun
1. something that actually exists; reality; truth: Your fears have no
basis in fact.
2. something known to exist or to have happened: Space travel is now a
fact.
3. a truth known by actual experience or observation; something known
to be true: Scientists gather facts about plant growth.
4. something said to be true or supposed to have happened: The facts
given by the witness are highly questionable.

But in looking at a list of definitions of "truth" one finds departures
from your claim in fact.

truth /truθ/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[trooth]
Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation,
â?"noun, plural truths /truðz, truθs/ Pronunciation Key - Show
Spelled Pronunciation[troothz, trooths] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA
Pronunciation.
1. the true or actual state of a matter: He tried to find out the
truth.
2. conformity with fact or reality; verity: the truth of a statement.
3. a verified or indisputable fact, proposition, principle, or the
like: mathematical truths.
4. the state or character of being true.
5. actuality or actual existence.
6. an obvious or accepted fact; truism; platitude.
7. honesty; integrity; truthfulness.
8. (often initial capital letter) ideal or fundamental reality apart
from and transcending perceived experience: the basic truths of life.
9. agreement with a standard or original.
10. accuracy, as of position or adjustment.
11. Archaic. fidelity or constancy.
â?"Idiom
12. in truth, in reality; in fact; actually: In truth, moral decay
hastened the decline of the Roman Empire.

See numbers 8 and 9 above?

And number 6?

While you can claim YOUR definition is one or more of those that agree
with you, you cannot escape the "fact," and the "truth," that others
obviously do not agree with you.

Enjoy.

"Greegor" wrote in message
ups.com...

[[gregg wrote]]
Doan:
All of this philosophical bickering about the meaning of truth
really shows just how insane these system sucks are.

It's SOPHISTRY.

It becomes truly dangerous when it comes to the
giant FRAUD that Juvenile Courts are.
They allow attitudes, opinion, lies, gossip and innuendo into court.

[[Ron wrote]

Once again my attributing is not working. No idea why. But hey, on with
the discussion.

All courts allow attitudes, opinion, lies, gossip and innuendo gregg.
Anytime people, humans, are involved. Its inevitable gregg, unavoidable.
The judges know this, as do the prosecutors and defense attorneys. Thats
why court cases are so complicated. Someone must sort through it all to get
to the facts, and usually its either a judge or a jury.


[[gregg wrote]]
Administrative Law Juvenile Court processes decide
on major Constitutionally protected LIBERTY INTERESTS
and yet they do not follow legal standards intended to
protect those sacred LIBERTY INTERESTS.

[[Ron wrote]]

You continue to write the term "liberty interests", but fail to define it.
Just which "liberty interests" are you talking about and just how are they
"Constitutionally protected"? All to often you and others claim
"Constitutional protections" that do not exist. So, just tell us which ones
you are claiming now.


[[gregg wrote]]
In fact the LIBERTY INTERESTS at stake in Juvenile Court
have been compared to those involved in a MURDER TRIAL,
and so the standards and process should be closer to those.


[[Ron wrote]]

Compared by whom?

[[gregg wrote]]
The legal standard used is "preponderance" which means that if
more than half of the stuff CPS brings into court is negative, the
judge decides they own the family in question.
Caseworkers of course simply provide one-sided information.

[[Ron wrote]]

Well gregg, its not a criminal proceeding. What do you expect? Its a civil
case dude, try and envision the difference.

[[gregg wrote]]
This is considered a breach of due process
clause because it totally subverts the court.

[[Ron wrote]]

Considered by whom?

[[gregg wrote]]
In US Chapter 42 Section 1983 and 1987 law suits against the
agencies it is called a violation of the 6th amendment of the
US Constitution, "an abuse of the preponderance standard".

[[Ron wrote]]

Law Suits are not laws gregg. They are complaints. Anyone can claim
whatever they choose in a Law Suit, its up to the courts to decide if the
claims are valid. Kindly cite a completed case where this has happened.

[[gregg wrote]]
Even when Juvenile Court Judges see blatant evidence that
caseworkers in fact committed PERJURY, they do not
feel compelled to initiate investigation or prosecution.

[[Ron wrote]]

Evidence is not proof gregg. It is what supports a belief or statement.
Also, perjury is an "intentional" act of untruthfulness. Errors do not rise
to the level of perjury. Belief is just that, belief. Supported or
unsupported by facts or evidence, belief never rises to the level of
perjury.

[[gregg wrote]]
Prosecutors don't want to prosecute their allies,
the caseworkers, and they have "descretion".

Clearly the "flexible truth" has infected even courts.

[[Ron wrote]]

Prosecutors dont prosecute lots of crimes gregg because of "descretion"
[sic]. Sorry, thats just how the legal system works. Why spend the money
or time prosecuting crimes when they are doomed to failure? Just what
percentage of your paycheck are you willing to donate to the government so
that 100% of all crimes are prosecuted? HINT: 100% of your check will not
be enough.

Dam, that was cumbersome. I gotta figure out what is happening with my mail
reader soon. Thanks for reading!

Ron


Ron wrote:
"Doan" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 23 Nov 2006, Ron wrote:


"Michael©" wrote in message
. 97.140...
"Ron" wrote in
:


"Doug" wrote in message
...
Absolutely not. You can tell the absolute truth and lose a suit
because you chose to tell it to the detriment and loss of the
complainant.

Hi, Kane,

Nope. Truth is an absolute defense against libel. If the defendant
proves the statement to be true in a libel suit, he prevails.
Period.
Absolute defense.

If there is one thing you should have learned in posting to this news
group for as long as you have Doug, "Truth" is a matter of
perspective.

Fact, on the other hand, is what is the ultimate defense.

Truth is an absolute defense in the United States and Canada to
defamation
(libel and slander).

Un uh, Michael. That's a myth based on folks ignoring qualifiers
you'll
nearly always see in the authorities referenced, that actually say,
"in almost every instance truth is an absolute defense."

Michael is correct. Truth is an absolute defense in libel suits.
That
the truth happens to cause detriment to the plaintiff does not in
any
manner, shape or form mitigate the absolute defense of truth.

No Doug, its not. Fact is. Truth is variable.

If truth is a variable, it is not a fact.

LMAO

=====================================
truth

+ noun (pl. truths /trooths, troo&ulth;z/) 1 the quality or state of
being true. 2 (also the truth) that which is true as opposed to
false.
3
a fact or belief that is accepted as true.

ORIGIN Old English.

Oxford University Press, 2006
=====================================

The truth is a fact.

Therefore, you contradicted yourself above.



Ron


Actually mikey, I didnt, and you proved my point. "3 a fact or belief
that
is accepted as true."

Ron

Fact and truth are synonymous, Ron.

Doan

No Doan, they aren't. Fact is immutable, truth is perception.

Why are so many people have problems with this, its really a pretty simple
concept. Facts do not change. Truth does. Therefore Truth is
perception.

Ron

Greegor wrote:
Doan:
All of this philosophical bickering about the meaning of truth
really shows just how insane these system sucks are.

It's SOPHISTRY.

Interesting that you would find Ron's and my argument sophistry but
accept Doan's without question.

It becomes truly dangerous when it comes to the
giant FRAUD that Juvenile Courts are.
They allow attitudes, opinion, lies, gossip and innuendo into court.

No court can stop such from being expressed Greg. What they do with it
is another matter.

In fact, my bet is that should you ever see the inside of a courtroom
in the case you discuss here, you will be carrying your attitude,
opinino, lies, gossip, and innuendo into court.

Just as you do here.

Administrative Law Juvenile Court processes decide
on major Constitutionally protected LIBERTY INTERESTS

You have failed in the past, when challenged on this "Constitutionally
protected LIBERTY INTERESTS" to produce a single item from the
Constitution that in fact backs your claim.

You run from argument on it.

and yet they do not follow legal standards intended to
protect those sacred LIBERTY INTERESTS.

Nonsense, Greg.

In fact the LIBERTY INTERESTS at stake in Juvenile Court
have been compared to those involved in a MURDER TRIAL,
and so the standards and process should be closer to those.

The comparison is fatuous and the most obvious sophistry, Greg.

The legal standard used is "preponderance" which means that if
more than half of the stuff CPS brings into court is negative, the
judge decides they own the family in question.

Then ask for a jury trial.

Or are you discussing informational hearings rather than prosecution?

Caseworkers of course simply provide one-sided information.

Well, since their job is to intervene in child abuse cases, and in most
instances that is what they find, I'd say their information is going to
appear very one sided to the perp.

Wouldn't you?

This is considered a breach of due process
clause because it totally subverts the court.

Wrong.

Try that in criminal trial on the prosecutor, Greg.

In US Chapter 42 Section 1983 and 1987 law suits against the
agencies it is called a violation of the 6th amendment of the
US Constitution, "an abuse of the preponderance standard".

Please provide a more usable citation, Greg.

And what was the nature of the cases? Was the standard court proceedure
challenged, or in fact were their individuals that did in fact violate
the "preponderance standard?"

Even when Juvenile Court Judges see blatant evidence that
caseworkers in fact committed PERJURY, they do not
feel compelled to initiate investigation or prosecution.

Are you aware, unless you correct your testimony to the HW&MC that you
could be charged for perjury?

Or is it okay when you misinform but not okay for others to?

Prosecutors don't want to prosecute their allies,
the caseworkers, and they have "descretion".

Sure they do, if a charge is brought. Have you brought any?

Clearly the "flexible truth" has infected even courts.

The "truth" has been 'flexible' from the beginning of time, Greg.

Facts, on the other hadn are not.

Now what YOU need to do is provide some facts.

Did what you offer to the HW&MC hearing constitute facts and the truth,
Greg?

I found your "facts" to be in error, and posted the correct information
for you.

As far as I can find your testimoney sits on the record, the
Congressional Record, as being not the 'truth.'

Do you have a different standard for you than others, and since fact is
immutable, how is it you presented your facts, and they do not conform
to the actual facts I provided you?

You prove, Greg, there is no 'sophistry' in the argument Ron or myself
offered. For YOUR 'truth' was not based on fact.

Do you still hold that your "facts" were true concerning the use of
Federal monies to establish...or failing to establish the correct
number and distribution of Iowa CRBs?

0:-


Ron wrote:
"Doan" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 23 Nov 2006, Ron wrote:


"Michael©" wrote in message
. 97.140...
"Ron" wrote in
:


"Doug" wrote in message
...
Absolutely not. You can tell the absolute truth and lose a suit
because you chose to tell it to the detriment and loss of the
complainant.

Hi, Kane,

Nope. Truth is an absolute defense against libel. If the defendant
proves the statement to be true in a libel suit, he prevails. Period.
Absolute defense.

If there is one thing you should have learned in posting to this news
group for as long as you have Doug, "Truth" is a matter of perspective.

Fact, on the other hand, is what is the ultimate defense.

Truth is an absolute defense in the United States and Canada to
defamation
(libel and slander).

Un uh, Michael. That's a myth based on folks ignoring qualifiers
you'll
nearly always see in the authorities referenced, that actually say,
"in almost every instance truth is an absolute defense."

Michael is correct. Truth is an absolute defense in libel suits.
That
the truth happens to cause detriment to the plaintiff does not in any
manner, shape or form mitigate the absolute defense of truth.

No Doug, its not. Fact is. Truth is variable.

If truth is a variable, it is not a fact.

LMAO

=====================================
truth

+ noun (pl. truths /trooths, troo&ulth;z/) 1 the quality or state of
being true. 2 (also the truth) that which is true as opposed to false.
3
a fact or belief that is accepted as true.

ORIGIN Old English.

Oxford University Press, 2006
=====================================

The truth is a fact.

Therefore, you contradicted yourself above.



Ron


Actually mikey, I didnt, and you proved my point. "3 a fact or belief
that
is accepted as true."

Ron

Fact and truth are synonymous, Ron.

Doan

No Doan, they aren't. Fact is immutable, truth is perception.

Why are so many people have problems with this, its really a pretty simple
concept. Facts do not change. Truth does. Therefore Truth is perception.

Ron

Greegor wrote:

....snip....other material already responded to......

Even when Juvenile Court Judges see blatant evidence that
caseworkers in fact committed PERJURY, they do not
feel compelled to initiate investigation or prosecution.

You seem both unable to cite specifics in this and other legal matters,
Greg.

So I'll start with more education for you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perjury

Perjury
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Perjury is the act of lying or making verifiably false statements on a
material matter under oath or affirmation in a court of law or in any
of various sworn statements in writing. Perjury is a crime because the
witness has sworn to tell the truth and, for the credibility of the
court, witness testimony must be relied on as being truthful. Perjury
is considered a very serious crime as it could be used to usurp the
power of the courts, resulting in miscarriages of justice. In the
United States, for example, the general perjury statute under Federal
law provides for a prison sentence of up to five years, and is found at
18 U.S.C. § 1621. See also 28 U.S.C. § 1746.

Did you swear or affirm, Greg, to the testimony you gave to the HW&MC?

I hope note.

Now, have you seen someone from CPS make verifiably false statements on
a material matter under oath in a court of law?

If so, why have you not provided the verifiable evidence and had them
charged with perjury?

Waiting for the court to do it?

0:-