A Parenting & kids forum. ParentingBanter.com

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » ParentingBanter.com forum » alt.support » Foster Parents
Site Map Home Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Is Oregon in the Child Welfare Dark Ages? - Richard Wexler's Opinion



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old May 31st 05, 11:01 AM
Arlene McDermott
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Is Oregon in the Child Welfare Dark Ages? - Richard Wexler's Opinion

IN MY OPINION Richard Wexler
Tuesday, May 31, 2005

http://www.oregonlive.com/commentary...360.xml&coll=7

Ignoring the elephant in the room won't protect kids

The recent report on child protection in Oregon proves the adage that "you
get what you pay for."

The state paid nothing for the report, and that's pretty much what it got.
It included the following stunning revelations: Caseloads should be lower.
Training should be better. In convoluted language it calls for more clarity.
In broad terms it says policies should be more specific.

But the biggest problem with the report is what's missing. The report only
hints at "the elephant in the room," the overarching problem that is driving
all the other failures in Oregon child welfa Oregon takes away too many
children.

Oregon's caseworkers are overwhelmed because Oregon takes proportionately
more children than all but 14 other states. It removes children at a rate
more than 50 percent above the national average.

To some, that may sound like good news. After all, if a child is wrongfully
removed, it is argued, the parents might suffer, but we have to "err on the
side of the child." There probably is no phrase in the English language that
has done more harm to children.

When a child is needlessly thrown into foster care, he loses not only mom
and dad but often brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles, grandparents, teachers,
friends and classmates. He is cut loose from everyone loving and familiar.
The emotional trauma can last a lifetime. A recent study of Oregon and
Washington state foster care "alumni" found that one-third said they were
abused in foster care itself and only 20 percent were "doing well." How can
we throw children into a system that churns out walking wounded four times
out of five and call it "erring on the side of the child?"

Although it is the cases involving parents who beat, rape and torture their
children that, rightly, get attention, far more common are cases in which a
family's poverty is confused with "neglect." In these cases, a child is
taken from a home where there was no abuse and placed in a system where the
odds of abuse are at least one in three. Jordan Knapp was thrown into foster
care in the name of "erring on the side of the child" -- and she nearly
died.

But even that isn't the worst of it. The more that workers are overwhelmed
with children who don't need to be in foster care, the less time they have
to find children in real danger, children such as Ashton Parris, for
example.

There is, of course, a one-word excuse for the high rate of removal in
Oregon: methamphetamine. But Oregon takes, proportionately, nearly 50
percent more children than California, another state with a huge meth
problem. And Oregon has been taking children at this incredibly high rate at
least since 1985, before anyone had heard of meth.

Some will wonder why we should even bother with treatment for parents who
use drugs. But the reason to "bother" is not for the sake of the parents,
but for their children -- as we learned from the last drug plague -- crack.

University of Florida researchers studied two groups of infants born with
cocaine in their systems. One group was placed in foster care, the other
with birth mothers able to care for them. After six months, the babies were
tested using all the usual measures of infant development: rolling over,
sitting up, reaching out. Consistently, the children placed with their birth
mothers did better. For the foster children, being taken from their mothers
was more toxic than the cocaine.

It is extremely difficult to take a swing at "bad parents" without the blow
landing on their children. A few states and counties have learned this
lesson. They take far fewer children than Oregon, yet independent
court-appointed monitors say child safety has improved. Oregon once embraced
such reform, but those reforms atrophied over the past several years. Now,
the state stumbles around in the child welfare dark ages because no one is
willing to say there's an elephant in the room.

Richard Wexler is executive director of the National Coalition for Child
Protection Reform.


  #2  
Old May 31st 05, 09:34 PM
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Arlene McDermott wrote:

One of the things that no one ever brings up about the author, Wexler,
is that he is not a child protection veteran of any kind. He is, above
all else, a journalist with an investment in being read. No
journalist's work will be read unless a publisher WANTS it, and the
popular media is ravenous for blood spattering attention getting
stories...not matter if they got that way more by slanting, and bias,
than if they were truely objective. In fact, objective stories are
usually far too boring and do NOT sell to publishers of popular media.

It MUST be, first and foremost, even over the objective truth,
ATTENTION getting.

Wexler is, to be kind, an "issue peddler."

Here is a short bio:

http://www.nccpr.org/board_staff/wexler.html

"Richard Wexler
Executive Director


Richard Wexler's interest in the child welfare system grew out of 19
years of work as a reporter for newspapers, public radio and public
television.

During that time, he won more than two dozen awards, many of them for
stories about child abuse and foster care. He is the author of Wounded
Innocents: The Real Victims of the War Against Child Abuse (Prometheus
Books: 1990, 1995).

Wexler has testified before Congress and State Legislatures and advised
the U.S. Senate Subcommittee on Children and Families in its 1995
rewrite of the Child Abuse Prevention and Treatment Act.

Wexler's writing about the child welfare system has appeared in The New
York Times, The Washington Post, the Chicago Tribune and other major
newspapers, and he has been interviewed by The New York Times, The
Washington Post, the Los Angeles Times, Time, the Associated Press, USA
Today, 60 Minutes, National Public Radio, CBS This Morning, Today, ABC
World News Tonight, the CBS Evening News, CBS News Nigh****ch, and
other media.

Wexler is a graduate of Richmond College of the City University of New
York and the Columbia University Graduate School of Journalism, where
he was awarded the school's highest honor, a Pulitzer Traveling
Fellowship. He was formerly Assistant Professor of Communications at
The Pennsylvania State University -- Beaver Campus."

The above is from the board of directors page of an organization that
posts this as their mission...just the opening paragraph should give
you an idea of their rigor in use of language, or lack of it:

"For decades, America has engaged in a public monologue about child
abuse. One group of think-alike self-proclaimed "experts" has sought
and received enormous public attention. They have painted a distorted
picture of child maltreatment and encouraged us to create the failed
system we have today."

Tell me, how does a country, and it's public, engage in a "monologue?"
That MEANS one talking to one's self. And requires there be only one
person present.

They go on to say they are for a dialogue and that is their goal. Isn't
it sweet that they deny everyone ELSE in the country who has an
investment in CPS reform their presence in the fray? And in fact
attempt to usurp it for themselves, as the ONLY one that can open
"dialogue?"

"We do not seek this change because the system hurts parents. We seek
this change because the system hurts children. Our hope is to turn the
public monologue about child abuse into a dialogue."

What IS a public "monologue?" Is that not minimizing, or in fact,
denying that others are as invested as they? Or is their lie to be
believed....that there is an unamed, you notice, "group" that they name
call, that is responsible for this "failed system?"

Why be coy? How is their information to be considered objective, if
they remove and hide the very source of the PROBLEM, this "group?"

Now let's take an objective look at this "report."

IN MY OPINION Richard Wexler


[[[[ First of all, it is admitted by the author to be his opinion. Most
folks won't stop and consider what that means, and the kind of license
that gives the speaker with the facts.

It means he does NOT have to varify, and support his claims...they are,
after all, just opinions...and a very smart way to avoid having to
confront incorrect conclusions, or even factual data that is incorrect.
]]]]

Tuesday, May 31, 2005

http://www.oregonlive.com/commentary...360.xml&coll=7

Ignoring the elephant in the room won't protect kids

The recent report on child protection in Oregon proves the adage that "you
get what you pay for."

The state paid nothing for the report, and that's pretty much what it got.
It included the following stunning revelations: Caseloads should be lower.
Training should be better. In convoluted language it calls for more clarity.
In broad terms it says policies should be more specific.


I've read the report, and if you follow this ng, you have as well. YOU
in this newsgroup accepted that report in it's criticisms of Oregon.
Now you are being told the report lacked value because it was not fee
based. You are being set up by a well schooled and experienced
journalist- a reporter, to buy what will come later in this opinion
piece.

Let me assure you, when anyone wants to denounce the authenticity of a
work product they have two fabulous choices, based on whether or not it
was paid for. One - free equals "no incentive to produce a quality
product" (Wexler's choice above) and that good ol' "They are obviously
being paid to produce a report that is complimentary to the BUYER,"
which more than one of YOU have used as an argument more than
once...and so have I, if it was appropriate.

What makes such a claim appropriate? Not the pay or lack of it, but:

The quality of such a report lies in it's objectivity. Hence it's going
to sound trite because it's going to tell us somethings we already know
to be true.

The authenticity of a report isn't based on it's astounding revelations
quotient...though there may be some. But on factual accuracy and
bonifide logic.

But the biggest problem with the report is what's missing.


[[[ Oh? How could the fact that it's free and thus flawed at the get go
top something missing, for "biggest problem? ]]]

The report only
hints


[[[ "Hints?" It did not "hint." It flat out said so. Ranking it right
along with each of the points it covered.

I wonder if the NRCCPS, that produced the report, yet another CPS
reform group, is in any way seen as a competetor to Wexler's group,
where he is on the board of directors, NCCPR? 0:-

And HERE is what the "Hint" actually said, from the report Dan Sullivan
posted in this ng - The report lists the following challenges facing
Oregon's system: 1)methamphetamine; 2) workload demand; 3) local
influence and determination; 4) staff configuration; 5) worker
authority to remove children; 6) group decision making; 7) legal
custody and in-home supervision; 8) threat of harm; 9) strengths and
needs-based interventions." Unless of course each of these ranks as a
"hint." What balls Wexler has to so slant the facts. What BALLS.

You will see later in this opinion piece where Wexler slides
imperceptibly from discussing work load, to taking children from
parents..these are NOT mutually inclusive. Workload includes the cases
where children and families are given in home services. What BALLS! ]]]

at "the elephant in the room," the overarching problem that is driving
all the other failures in Oregon child welfa Oregon takes away too many
children.


[[[ See? Numbers of children removed is NOT the critical issue, but
numbers of children removed and all OTHER cases and requirements of
workers.

Do you detect a theme here...and is, using the familiar argument, this
not what Wexler keeps being able to sell his commentary with? Of course
it is. It amounts to a One Trick Pony. Why is HIS opinion piece of any
more value than the state report, considering he gets paid for his
words? Isn't he required to produce what will SELL? ]]]

Oregon's caseworkers are overwhelmed because Oregon takes proportionately
more children than all but 14 other states. It removes children at a rate
more than 50 percent above the national average.


[[[ R R R .... and you twits will fall for that. An "average" puts half
the states on one side, and half on the other. That means 25 states are
above the averate and 25 below...and it has pretty much no
significance, other than to rank a set. There will always, when
averaging, be HALF ABOVE AND HALF BELOW.

So Oregon shares this dubious honor....R R R R ...of being above the
midpoint.
What is the actual NUMBER? And why ISN'T shown with the comparision
numbers of other states, so we can see if this is such a major issue or
not for ourselves?

What would it be in numbers that would show some significance?

Why didn't Wexler share something so easily obtained, and in fact,
unless he took someone's word for it, he'd have to have to make such a
claim?

Citing an average, sans the numbers involved is the same ol' same ol'
that Madison avenue created long ago to sell products.

Starting to see how journalists do their thing? Read Marshall Mcluhan
someday, and learn how any competent producer for the popular media, be
it print or vision or sound, can frame the any kind of claims, blocking
out surrounding context, to manipulate you and I into believing just
about anything they wish.

One can show only the video frames with the closeup of the hand holding
the gun, and leave out the police officer the person is handing it to
who is actually well out of the line of possibly fire, and you have
identified the WRONG MAN AS THE PERP. Same with such things as Wexler's
claims.

(Ask a black man how this midea twisting works...but stand well clear
when you do, if you are white.)

Certainly you KNOW this already if you can observe and think. ]]]

To some, that may sound like good news. After all, if a child is wrongfully
removed, it is argued, the parents might suffer, but we have to "err on the
side of the child." There probably is no phrase in the English language that
has done more harm to children.


[[[ Hyperbole. Stop and think. WHO, beyond the stereotype that has been
carefully crafted, falsely, over the years, would believe and advocate
that it's alright for an innocent parent to suffer to "err on the side
of the child?" He, like that organization he's on the board of, is
creating a strawman....or more, a man made of fog. Some "group" that
goes nameless by has declared widely and frequently that it's okay to
hurt innocent parents in the name of child safety. Line 'em up. I want
to see how many Wexler and YOU can produce of these persons that have
said that.

Now he's got THAT thought implanted in your head....that there is a
massive number of families that are innocent and their children taken
away...but stop....that's NOT the true premise. The REAL premise was
CASELOAD EXCESSES..not child removals. But he tried to make removals
the ONLY caseload issue.

Why did he not mention, as the report said "Not only do Oregon
caseworkers have large caseloads, but they are also asked to directly
represent their cases in court. The report said the practice was unique
to Oregon and it increased the workload." and was reported by KATU
television?

That "child removals being the caseload sole case of overload" is far
from the truth. Each year 60% of those removed go HOME. Roughly 30%
(vary state to state) in fact receive home based services. But here
comes, as greegor likes to say, 'the pathos.']]]

When a child is needlessly thrown


[[[ "Thrown?" "THROWN?" anybody in child protection that throws a child
is in serious trouble indeedy. R R R ...well, he don't lack the balls,
that's for sure. ]]]

into foster care, he loses not only mom
and dad but often brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles, grandparents, teachers,
friends and classmates. He is cut loose from everyone loving and familiar.


[[[ No he isn't. -- there are built in practices to keep him connected,
including trying to place him in his own neighborhood, transport to his
school, placement with siblings, belongings moved with him, etc.

And if this nonsense hyperbolic rant were true it would also be true
that when he was NOT "needlessly thrown" (don't you just love
journalists and how they play on your emotions with loaded words such
as "thrown" instead of the accurate but tame, "placed?" but in fact
safely placed to stop abuse and risk, HE STILL WOULD BE HAVING LOSES.
]]]

The emotional trauma can last a lifetime.


[[[ So can the emotional trauma, often much more powerful and long
lasting, of an abusive parent inflicting pain on a child. And what also
can last a lifetime is that he was gotten out in time, given care and
attention by a foster parent, and either his own parents got with the
program or other parents found for him...THAT IS WHAT LASTS A LIFETIME,
much more likely. ]]]

A recent study of Oregon and
Washington state foster care "alumni" found that one-third said they were
abused in foster care itself and only 20 percent were "doing well." How can
we throw children into a system that churns out walking wounded four times
out of five and call it "erring on the side of the child?"


[[[ Yes, I love surveys using self reporting...and as far as I know,
there is no connection between "throw children into a system" and
calling it anything in particular. He cannot, and neither can you, show
that there is any general or widespread claim by CPS or other child
welfare advocates that we must err on the side of the child. That's
left over from the last century and decades back in it, for that
matter.

The alluded to study was full of holes as a report of provable facts.
]]]

Although it is the cases involving parents who beat, rape and torture their
children that, rightly, get attention, far more common are cases in which a
family's poverty is confused with "neglect." In these cases, a child is
taken from a home where there was no abuse and placed in a system where the
odds of abuse are at least one in three. Jordan Knapp was thrown into foster
care in the name of "erring on the side of the child" -- and she nearly
died.


[[[ Bull****, plain and simple. Consider, from an article on this
issue, and referring to Jordan Knapp, "It's too early to tell if
mistakes were made in two Clackamas County cases that made headlines
this month. Both children came from homes affected by meth, crime and
poverty."

Oh, "meth, crime and poverty."

Well there's just a tad more to that quote above that shows how far off
the mark Wexler really is. The OTHER child was returned to home -- and
died at the hands of his parents. You just got, from Wexler a major
shot of bull****. ]]]

But even that isn't the worst of it. The more that workers are overwhelmed
with children who don't need to be in foster care, the less time they have
to find children in real danger, children such as Ashton Parris, for
example.


[[[ Yes, the other child sent home. And an easy claim to make,
regardless of the numbers. It's always hard to play psychic. And how
does HE know that Jordan would not have been "in real danger" had she
been sent home as well? Crap. That's what this is, crap. Shame. Shame.
Shame. ]]]

There is, of course, a one-word excuse for the high rate of removal in
Oregon: methamphetamine. But Oregon takes, proportionately, nearly 50
percent more children than California, another state with a huge meth
problem.


[[[ Are you taken in? I hope not. What does "proportionally, nearly 50
percent more" actually mean? What is the rate per 1000 of meth
involvement in both states? What does "with a huge meth problem"
actually mean, regarding California? And what makes him think that
Oregon isn't a destination resort for the meth trade and for users? It
happens to be just that. It's forests and deserts are far less heavily
population and patrolled by LE than California. It's concentrated
target populations for meth dealer and manufacturers more accessible.
Under funding police departments...HUGE cuts in state police in recent
years, that continue a trend started in the early 90's.

And Oregon has been taking children at this incredibly high rate at
least since 1985, before anyone had heard of meth.


[[[ But not before anyone heard of cocaine -- which quickly morphed
into crack cocaine....a major epidemic from Eugene to Seattle in WA
state, when the LA gangs came north with it...oddly, starting in about
1982 or 83, just about the time of my practicum in CPS in Oregon.

Oregon had a meth problem back then as well. He's full of bull****.
Biker clubs (the naughty boy types) were running meth, and
manufucturing meth as early as 1968...yes, that's NOT a typo, from
California, and in Oregon, when I saw my first death from meth in a
"hippy" campground in the Illinois Valley in Southern Oregon. For a
journaist, he's badly misinformed on this issue. ]]]

Some will wonder why we should even bother with treatment for parents who
use drugs. But the reason to "bother" is not for the sake of the parents,
but for their children -- as we learned from the last drug plague -- crack.


[[[ Hold your breath...here it comes, the BIG LIE by removal from
context. See if before you read my response, leave it off screen while
you read the next item, you can see the hole in this outrageous claim.
]]]

University of Florida researchers studied two groups of infants born with
cocaine in their systems. One group was placed in foster care, the other
with birth mothers able to care for them. After six months, the babies were
tested using all the usual measures of infant development: rolling over,
sitting up, reaching out. Consistently, the children placed with their birth
mothers did better. For the foster children, being taken from their mothers
was more toxic than the cocaine.


[[[ Ask yourself one question for the answer to this piece of
frequently peddled TRUE, but bull**** claim. Was a comparison made
between bio mothers as CPS CLIENTS RECEIVING SERVICES AND ENROLLED IN
DRUG REHAB PROGRAMS compared to those in the population NOT so enrolled
and engaged by CPS? The argument is great for making the claim that
WHEN A MOTHER CAN BE PERSUADED TO SIGN A CONTRACT...SAFETY OR SERVICE
PLAN...and they show they can stick to it, it's better than foster
care...that HAS NEVER BEEN IN DISPUTE, for any type case.

The argument is in fact one of those tricks to lead you to conclusions
using information that in fact isn't addressing the problem the
conclusion is asking about. It's not foster vs meth mom, it's meth
mom IN vs meth mom OUT of the system. For the foster parents that have
a child of a meth mom who is NOT participating in a safety plan can't
be compared. In fact if the foster parent was doing BETTER THAN THE
METH MOM ON A SAFETY PLAN then the damn safety plan would be a poor
one. This study proves that workers that enroll moms in such programs
are doing a damn good job of assessing who can and cannot make it.

OR, fellow humble observers, ALL THE METH MOMS WOULD BE ON THE PROGRAM.
Think they are? R R R R R ]]]

It is extremely difficult to take a swing at "bad parents" without the blow
landing on their children. A few states and counties have learned this
lesson. They take far fewer children than Oregon, yet independent
court-appointed monitors say child safety has improved. Oregon once embraced
such reform, but those reforms atrophied over the past several years.


[[[ Once again, the sly little slide away from context. ... you are to
assume that conditions in Oregon and those other states are identical,
thus comparibable. Conditions in Oregon changed, drastrically. And not
the funding stream so much as the population. Oregon enjoyed a period
of relative prosperity in the the years that move upfront services were
offered. From CAPTA to about the early 80s. Man, the 80's were hell on
wheels. The economy began to falter...Regean creamed Oregon with the
Luxury Import tarrifs, the Gangs from LA found a new target. Meth had
been boiling under the surface on a smaller scale for a long time and
began to move out more. The first meth lab I heard of in my
neighborhood (at time I live in a very upscale region) was 1986. And
things got worse. There was no "atrophied," there was a "burying" by
the extremity of rising proverty and drugs. And the beginning of
cutbacks in funding. ]]]

Now,
the state stumbles around in the child welfare dark ages because no one is
willing to say there's an elephant in the room.


[[[ And Wexler isn't willing to point to the elephant's ****, as in
dope, poverty in the weakening economy, influx if Californians bringing
their problems with them, (huge northward flow -- including drug
culture....and by that I mean meth labs, to the north country). Anyone
that interviews other journalists or in fact reviews the media on this
issue finds out immediately what the elephant really looks like and the
stink of reality that it brought. ]]]


Richard Wexler is executive director of the National Coalition for Child
Protection Reform.


Yes, we know.

And I think there is some of the straw man phenomena going on as
well...with the building of a monster that isn't truly the size and
shape pretended. Or intended for us to believe. The real problem? Child
abuse. Nothing more or less. And it's not made of straw. As the public
is learning.

It won't be long now.

0:-

  #3  
Old June 1st 05, 02:14 AM
Jurassic Pierogi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default



Arlene McDermott wrote:
IN MY OPINION Richard Wexler
Tuesday, May 31, 2005

http://www.oregonlive.com/commentary...360.xml&coll=7

Ignoring the elephant in the room won't protect kids


Hmmmmmmmmm. Is Ramona the 'elephant in the room'? I seen her picture.
Could be.


The recent report on child protection in Oregon proves the adage that "you
get what you pay for."

The state paid nothing for the report, and that's pretty much what it got.
It included the following stunning revelations: Caseloads should be lower.
Training should be better. In convoluted language it calls for more clarity.
In broad terms it says policies should be more specific.

But the biggest problem with the report is what's missing. The report only
hints at "the elephant in the room," the overarching problem that is driving
all the other failures in Oregon child welfa Oregon takes away too many
children.

Oregon's caseworkers are overwhelmed because Oregon takes proportionately
more children than all but 14 other states. It removes children at a rate
more than 50 percent above the national average.

To some, that may sound like good news. After all, if a child is wrongfully
removed, it is argued, the parents might suffer, but we have to "err on the
side of the child." There probably is no phrase in the English language that
has done more harm to children.


Actually, that's what makes CPS types so dispicable - they swear the
abuse they heap on the children is for their own good.


When a child is needlessly thrown into foster care, he loses not only mom
and dad but often brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles, grandparents, teachers,
friends and classmates. He is cut loose from everyone loving and familiar.
The emotional trauma can last a lifetime. A recent study of Oregon and
Washington state foster care "alumni" found that one-third said they were
abused in foster care itself and only 20 percent were "doing well." How can
we throw children into a system that churns out walking wounded four times
out of five and call it "erring on the side of the child?"


CPS grinds up innocent children and families for profit. That the
foster system turns out walking wounded four times out of five is no
surprise. Folks make a lot of money "erring on the side of the child".
In fact, many communities have come to depend on CPS "erring on the
side of the child", packing them into foster care and gloating over all
the federal bucks they brought home.



Although it is the cases involving parents who beat, rape and torture their
children that, rightly, get attention, far more common are cases in which a
family's poverty is confused with "neglect." In these cases, a child is
taken from a home where there was no abuse and placed in a system where the
odds of abuse are at least one in three. Jordan Knapp was thrown into foster
care in the name of "erring on the side of the child" -- and she nearly
died.


Parents who abuse their children are a rare breed. Do a google news
search. Whattsamatta??? Is there a news blackout on all the horrible
abuse that happens 716 times a second especially on weekends?? Where's
the abuse? Where's the injury? Broken bones? Hospitalizations?
Whattsamatta? News blackout? It happens all the time ya know. 5000
children were abused in the time it took you to think I'm nuts.


But even that isn't the worst of it. The more that workers are overwhelmed
with children who don't need to be in foster care, the less time they have
to find children in real danger, children such as Ashton Parris, for
example.

There is, of course, a one-word excuse for the high rate of removal in
Oregon: methamphetamine. But Oregon takes, proportionately, nearly 50
percent more children than California, another state with a huge meth
problem. And Oregon has been taking children at this incredibly high rate at
least since 1985, before anyone had heard of meth.


Shhhhhhhhh. Don't be tellin folks it's not Meth's fault. You'll mess up
the plans for extra billions to deal with the meth 'epidemic'. OMG,
OMG, meth babies, crack babies, quick give us 500 million or the po
chillin will suffer. Hahahahahaha.


Some will wonder why we should even bother with treatment for parents who
use drugs. But the reason to "bother" is not for the sake of the parents,
but for their children -- as we learned from the last drug plague -- crack.

University of Florida researchers studied two groups of infants born with
cocaine in their systems. One group was placed in foster care, the other
with birth mothers able to care for them. After six months, the babies were
tested using all the usual measures of infant development: rolling over,
sitting up, reaching out. Consistently, the children placed with their birth
mothers did better. For the foster children, being taken from their mothers
was more toxic than the cocaine.

It is extremely difficult to take a swing at "bad parents" without the blow
landing on their children. A few states and counties have learned this
lesson. They take far fewer children than Oregon, yet independent
court-appointed monitors say child safety has improved. Oregon once embraced
such reform, but those reforms atrophied over the past several years. Now,
the state stumbles around in the child welfare dark ages because no one is
willing to say there's an elephant in the room.


How 'bout it Ramona. What's up with the elephant and the dark ages and
stuff. Don't you grease painted 9-5 frozen in time CPS darkhearts even
want a clue? Do you ever think of the destruction you leave in your
wake when you're spendin da cash??


Richard Wexler is executive director of the National Coalition for Child
Protection Reform.


  #4  
Old June 1st 05, 02:24 AM
Pop
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I couldn't read most of this, but your expounds are
mostly without merit and baseless. Kids don't lose
even a tiny percentage of what you claim they lose, and
that's where I got too bored to read it any further.

I disagree highly with you, agree pretty well with that
Wex w posted, and even think it was an intelligent,
well reasoned decision to post it. But you, well, I'm
not sure what the heck your'e trying to say.



"Arlene McDermott" wrote in
message
news:1117533675.d50a4e60e3b38b89b2b00d79279d426a@t eranews...
IN MY OPINION Richard Wexler
Tuesday, May 31, 2005

http://www.oregonlive.com/commentary...360.xml&coll=7

Ignoring the elephant in the room won't protect kids

The recent report on child protection in Oregon
proves the adage that "you get what you pay for."

The state paid nothing for the report, and that's
pretty much what it got. It included the following
stunning revelations: Caseloads should be lower.
Training should be better. In convoluted language it
calls for more clarity. In broad terms it says
policies should be more specific.

But the biggest problem with the report is what's
missing. The report only hints at "the elephant in
the room," the overarching problem that is driving
all the other failures in Oregon child welfa
Oregon takes away too many children.

Oregon's caseworkers are overwhelmed because Oregon
takes proportionately more children than all but 14
other states. It removes children at a rate more than
50 percent above the national average.

To some, that may sound like good news. After all, if
a child is wrongfully removed, it is argued, the
parents might suffer, but we have to "err on the side
of the child." There probably is no phrase in the
English language that has done more harm to children.

When a child is needlessly thrown into foster care,
he loses not only mom and dad but often brothers,
sisters, aunts, uncles, grandparents, teachers,
friends and classmates. He is cut loose from everyone
loving and familiar. The emotional trauma can last a
lifetime. A recent study of Oregon and Washington
state foster care "alumni" found that one-third said
they were abused in foster care itself and only 20
percent were "doing well." How can we throw children
into a system that churns out walking wounded four
times out of five and call it "erring on the side of
the child?"

Although it is the cases involving parents who beat,
rape and torture their children that, rightly, get
attention, far more common are cases in which a
family's poverty is confused with "neglect." In these
cases, a child is taken from a home where there was
no abuse and placed in a system where the odds of
abuse are at least one in three. Jordan Knapp was
thrown into foster care in the name of "erring on the
side of the child" -- and she nearly died.

But even that isn't the worst of it. The more that
workers are overwhelmed with children who don't need
to be in foster care, the less time they have to find
children in real danger, children such as Ashton
Parris, for example.

There is, of course, a one-word excuse for the high
rate of removal in Oregon: methamphetamine. But
Oregon takes, proportionately, nearly 50 percent more
children than California, another state with a huge
meth problem. And Oregon has been taking children at
this incredibly high rate at least since 1985, before
anyone had heard of meth.

Some will wonder why we should even bother with
treatment for parents who use drugs. But the reason
to "bother" is not for the sake of the parents, but
for their children -- as we learned from the last
drug plague -- crack.

University of Florida researchers studied two groups
of infants born with cocaine in their systems. One
group was placed in foster care, the other with birth
mothers able to care for them. After six months, the
babies were tested using all the usual measures of
infant development: rolling over, sitting up,
reaching out. Consistently, the children placed with
their birth mothers did better. For the foster
children, being taken from their mothers was more
toxic than the cocaine.

It is extremely difficult to take a swing at "bad
parents" without the blow landing on their children.
A few states and counties have learned this lesson.
They take far fewer children than Oregon, yet
independent court-appointed monitors say child safety
has improved. Oregon once embraced such reform, but
those reforms atrophied over the past several years.
Now, the state stumbles around in the child welfare
dark ages because no one is willing to say there's an
elephant in the room.

Richard Wexler is executive director of the National
Coalition for Child Protection Reform.




  #5  
Old June 1st 05, 02:27 AM
Pop
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


wrote in message
oups.com...
Arlene McDermott wrote:

One of the things that no one ever brings up about
the author, Wexler,
is that he is not a child protection veteran of any
kind. He is, above
all else, a journalist with an investment in being
read. No
journalist's work will be read unless a publisher
WANTS it, and the


=== And YOU are jealous as hell, aren't you? It's
pretty obvious why YOU aren't currently being
published. It's easy to get published in yellow
papers, but harder in good bond, ain't it?

You're pathetic the way you take anything and try to
make a debate out of it, sans any form of support, and
then simply argue all the more, flailing around like a
fish out of water.

Can YOU say "SUPPORT for Foster Parents"? No, you
can'tl; the words would stick in your throat, which is
probably as closed as your mind.

popular media is ravenous for blood spattering
attention getting
stories...not matter if they got that way more by
slanting, and bias,
than if they were truely objective. In fact,
objective stories are
usually far too boring and do NOT sell to publishers
of popular media.

It MUST be, first and foremost, even over the
objective truth,
ATTENTION getting.

Wexler is, to be kind, an "issue peddler."

Here is a short bio:

http://www.nccpr.org/board_staff/wexler.html

"Richard Wexler
Executive Director


Richard Wexler's interest in the child welfare system
grew out of 19
years of work as a reporter for newspapers, public
radio and public
television.

During that time, he won more than two dozen awards,
many of them for
stories about child abuse and foster care. He is the
author of Wounded
Innocents: The Real Victims of the War Against Child
Abuse (Prometheus
Books: 1990, 1995).

Wexler has testified before Congress and State
Legislatures and advised
the U.S. Senate Subcommittee on Children and Families
in its 1995
rewrite of the Child Abuse Prevention and Treatment
Act.

Wexler's writing about the child welfare system has
appeared in The New
York Times, The Washington Post, the Chicago Tribune
and other major
newspapers, and he has been interviewed by The New
York Times, The
Washington Post, the Los Angeles Times, Time, the
Associated Press, USA
Today, 60 Minutes, National Public Radio, CBS This
Morning, Today, ABC
World News Tonight, the CBS Evening News, CBS News
Nigh****ch, and
other media.

Wexler is a graduate of Richmond College of the City
University of New
York and the Columbia University Graduate School of
Journalism, where
he was awarded the school's highest honor, a Pulitzer
Traveling
Fellowship. He was formerly Assistant Professor of
Communications at
The Pennsylvania State University -- Beaver Campus."

The above is from the board of directors page of an
organization that
posts this as their mission...just the opening
paragraph should give
you an idea of their rigor in use of language, or
lack of it:

"For decades, America has engaged in a public
monologue about child
abuse. One group of think-alike self-proclaimed
"experts" has sought
and received enormous public attention. They have
painted a distorted
picture of child maltreatment and encouraged us to
create the failed
system we have today."

Tell me, how does a country, and it's public, engage
in a "monologue?"
That MEANS one talking to one's self. And requires
there be only one
person present.

They go on to say they are for a dialogue and that is
their goal. Isn't
it sweet that they deny everyone ELSE in the country
who has an
investment in CPS reform their presence in the fray?
And in fact
attempt to usurp it for themselves, as the ONLY one
that can open
"dialogue?"

"We do not seek this change because the system hurts
parents. We seek
this change because the system hurts children. Our
hope is to turn the
public monologue about child abuse into a dialogue."

What IS a public "monologue?" Is that not minimizing,
or in fact,
denying that others are as invested as they? Or is
their lie to be
believed....that there is an unamed, you notice,
"group" that they name
call, that is responsible for this "failed system?"

Why be coy? How is their information to be considered
objective, if
they remove and hide the very source of the PROBLEM,
this "group?"

Now let's take an objective look at this "report."

IN MY OPINION Richard Wexler


[[[[ First of all, it is admitted by the author to be
his opinion. Most
folks won't stop and consider what that means, and
the kind of license
that gives the speaker with the facts.

It means he does NOT have to varify, and support his
claims...they are,
after all, just opinions...and a very smart way to
avoid having to
confront incorrect conclusions, or even factual data
that is incorrect.
]]]]

Tuesday, May 31, 2005

http://www.oregonlive.com/commentary...360.xml&coll=7

Ignoring the elephant in the room won't protect kids

The recent report on child protection in Oregon
proves the adage that "you
get what you pay for."

The state paid nothing for the report, and that's
pretty much what it got.
It included the following stunning revelations:
Caseloads should be lower.
Training should be better. In convoluted language it
calls for more clarity.
In broad terms it says policies should be more
specific.


I've read the report, and if you follow this ng, you
have as well. YOU
in this newsgroup accepted that report in it's
criticisms of Oregon.
Now you are being told the report lacked value
because it was not fee
based. You are being set up by a well schooled and
experienced
journalist- a reporter, to buy what will come later
in this opinion
piece.

Let me assure you, when anyone wants to denounce the
authenticity of a
work product they have two fabulous choices, based on
whether or not it
was paid for. One - free equals "no incentive to
produce a quality
product" (Wexler's choice above) and that good ol'
"They are obviously
being paid to produce a report that is complimentary
to the BUYER,"
which more than one of YOU have used as an argument
more than
once...and so have I, if it was appropriate.

What makes such a claim appropriate? Not the pay or
lack of it, but:

The quality of such a report lies in it's
objectivity. Hence it's going
to sound trite because it's going to tell us
somethings we already know
to be true.

The authenticity of a report isn't based on it's
astounding revelations
quotient...though there may be some. But on factual
accuracy and
bonifide logic.

But the biggest problem with the report is what's
missing.


[[[ Oh? How could the fact that it's free and thus
flawed at the get go
top something missing, for "biggest problem? ]]]

The report only
hints


[[[ "Hints?" It did not "hint." It flat out said so.
Ranking it right
along with each of the points it covered.

I wonder if the NRCCPS, that produced the report, yet
another CPS
reform group, is in any way seen as a competetor to
Wexler's group,
where he is on the board of directors, NCCPR? 0:-

And HERE is what the "Hint" actually said, from the
report Dan Sullivan
posted in this ng - The report lists the following
challenges facing
Oregon's system: 1)methamphetamine; 2) workload
demand; 3) local
influence and determination; 4) staff configuration;
5) worker
authority to remove children; 6) group decision
making; 7) legal
custody and in-home supervision; 8) threat of harm;
9) strengths and
needs-based interventions." Unless of course each of
these ranks as a
"hint." What balls Wexler has to so slant the facts.
What BALLS.

You will see later in this opinion piece where Wexler
slides
imperceptibly from discussing work load, to taking
children from
parents..these are NOT mutually inclusive. Workload
includes the cases
where children and families are given in home
services. What BALLS! ]]]

at "the elephant in the room," the overarching
problem that is driving
all the other failures in Oregon child welfa
Oregon takes away too many
children.


[[[ See? Numbers of children removed is NOT the
critical issue, but
numbers of children removed and all OTHER cases and
requirements of
workers.

Do you detect a theme here...and is, using the
familiar argument, this
not what Wexler keeps being able to sell his
commentary with? Of course
it is. It amounts to a One Trick Pony. Why is HIS
opinion piece of any
more value than the state report, considering he gets
paid for his
words? Isn't he required to produce what will
SELL? ]]]

Oregon's caseworkers are overwhelmed because Oregon
takes proportionately
more children than all but 14 other states. It
removes children at a rate
more than 50 percent above the national average.


[[[ R R R .... and you twits will fall for that. An
"average" puts half
the states on one side, and half on the other. That
means 25 states are
above the averate and 25 below...and it has pretty
much no
significance, other than to rank a set. There will
always, when
averaging, be HALF ABOVE AND HALF BELOW.

So Oregon shares this dubious honor....R R R R ...of
being above the
midpoint.
What is the actual NUMBER? And why ISN'T shown with
the comparision
numbers of other states, so we can see if this is
such a major issue or
not for ourselves?

What would it be in numbers that would show some
significance?

Why didn't Wexler share something so easily obtained,
and in fact,
unless he took someone's word for it, he'd have to
have to make such a
claim?

Citing an average, sans the numbers involved is the
same ol' same ol'
that Madison avenue created long ago to sell
products.

Starting to see how journalists do their thing? Read
Marshall Mcluhan
someday, and learn how any competent producer for the
popular media, be
it print or vision or sound, can frame the any kind
of claims, blocking
out surrounding context, to manipulate you and I into
believing just
about anything they wish.

One can show only the video frames with the closeup
of the hand holding
the gun, and leave out the police officer the person
is handing it to
who is actually well out of the line of possibly
fire, and you have
identified the WRONG MAN AS THE PERP. Same with such
things as Wexler's
claims.

(Ask a black man how this midea twisting works...but
stand well clear
when you do, if you are white.)

Certainly you KNOW this already if you can observe
and think. ]]]

To some, that may sound like good news. After all,
if a child is wrongfully
removed, it is argued, the parents might suffer, but
we have to "err on the
side of the child." There probably is no phrase in
the English language that
has done more harm to children.


[[[ Hyperbole. Stop and think. WHO, beyond the
stereotype that has been
carefully crafted, falsely, over the years, would
believe and advocate
that it's alright for an innocent parent to suffer to
"err on the side
of the child?" He, like that organization he's on
the board of, is
creating a strawman....or more, a man made of fog.
Some "group" that
goes nameless by has declared widely and frequently
that it's okay to
hurt innocent parents in the name of child safety.
Line 'em up. I want
to see how many Wexler and YOU can produce of these
persons that have
said that.

Now he's got THAT thought implanted in your
head....that there is a
massive number of families that are innocent and
their children taken
away...but stop....that's NOT the true premise. The
REAL premise was
CASELOAD EXCESSES..not child removals. But he tried
to make removals
the ONLY caseload issue.

Why did he not mention, as the report said "Not only
do Oregon
caseworkers have large caseloads, but they are also
asked to directly
represent their cases in court. The report said the
practice was unique
to Oregon and it increased the workload." and was
reported by KATU
television?

That "child removals being the caseload sole case of
overload" is far
from the truth. Each year 60% of those removed go
HOME. Roughly 30%
(vary state to state) in fact receive home based
services. But here
comes, as greegor likes to say, 'the pathos.']]]

When a child is needlessly thrown


[[[ "Thrown?" "THROWN?" anybody in child protection
that throws a child
is in serious trouble indeedy. R R R ...well, he
don't lack the balls,
that's for sure. ]]]

into foster care, he loses not only mom
and dad but often brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles,
grandparents, teachers,
friends and classmates. He is cut loose from
everyone loving and familiar.


[[[ No he isn't. -- there are built in practices to
keep him connected,
including trying to place him in his own
neighborhood, transport to his
school, placement with siblings, belongings moved
with him, etc.

And if this nonsense hyperbolic rant were true it
would also be true
that when he was NOT "needlessly thrown" (don't you
just love
journalists and how they play on your emotions with
loaded words such
as "thrown" instead of the accurate but tame,
"placed?" but in fact
safely placed to stop abuse and risk, HE STILL WOULD
BE HAVING LOSES.
]]]

The emotional trauma can last a lifetime.


[[[ So can the emotional trauma, often much more
powerful and long
lasting, of an abusive parent inflicting pain on a
child. And what also
can last a lifetime is that he was gotten out in
time, given care and
attention by a foster parent, and either his own
parents got with the
program or other parents found for him...THAT IS WHAT
LASTS A LIFETIME,
much more likely. ]]]

A recent study of Oregon and
Washington state foster care "alumni" found that
one-third said they were
abused in foster care itself and only 20 percent
were "doing well." How can
we throw children into a system that churns out
walking wounded four times
out of five and call it "erring on the side of the
child?"


[[[ Yes, I love surveys using self reporting...and as
far as I know,
there is no connection between "throw children into a
system" and
calling it anything in particular. He cannot, and
neither can you, show
that there is any general or widespread claim by CPS
or other child
welfare advocates that we must err on the side of the
child. That's
left over from the last century and decades back in
it, for that
matter.

The alluded to study was full of holes as a report of
provable facts.
]]]

Although it is the cases involving parents who beat,
rape and torture their
children that, rightly, get attention, far more
common are cases in which a
family's poverty is confused with "neglect." In
these cases, a child is
taken from a home where there was no abuse and
placed in a system where the
odds of abuse are at least one in three. Jordan
Knapp was thrown into foster
care in the name of "erring on the side of the
child" -- and she nearly
died.


[[[ Bull****, plain and simple. Consider, from an
article on this
issue, and referring to Jordan Knapp, "It's too early
to tell if
mistakes were made in two Clackamas County cases that
made headlines
this month. Both children came from homes affected by
meth, crime and
poverty."

Oh, "meth, crime and poverty."

Well there's just a tad more to that quote above that
shows how far off
the mark Wexler really is. The OTHER child was
returned to home -- and
died at the hands of his parents. You just got, from
Wexler a major
shot of bull****. ]]]

But even that isn't the worst of it. The more that
workers are overwhelmed
with children who don't need to be in foster care,
the less time they have
to find children in real danger, children such as
Ashton Parris, for
example.


[[[ Yes, the other child sent home. And an easy claim
to make,
regardless of the numbers. It's always hard to play
psychic. And how
does HE know that Jordan would not have been "in real
danger" had she
been sent home as well? Crap. That's what this is,
crap. Shame. Shame.
Shame. ]]]

There is, of course, a one-word excuse for the high
rate of removal in
Oregon: methamphetamine. But Oregon takes,
proportionately, nearly 50
percent more children than California, another state
with a huge meth
problem.


[[[ Are you taken in? I hope not. What does
"proportionally, nearly 50
percent more" actually mean? What is the rate per
1000 of meth
involvement in both states? What does "with a huge
meth problem"
actually mean, regarding California? And what makes
him think that
Oregon isn't a destination resort for the meth trade
and for users? It
happens to be just that. It's forests and deserts are
far less heavily
population and patrolled by LE than California. It's
concentrated
target populations for meth dealer and manufacturers
more accessible.
Under funding police departments...HUGE cuts in state
police in recent
years, that continue a trend started in the early
90's.

And Oregon has been taking children at this
incredibly high rate at
least since 1985, before anyone had heard of meth.


[[[ But not before anyone heard of cocaine -- which
quickly morphed
into crack cocaine....a major epidemic from Eugene to
Seattle in WA
state, when the LA gangs came north with it...oddly,
starting in about
1982 or 83, just about the time of my practicum in
CPS in Oregon.

Oregon had a meth problem back then as well. He's
full of bull****.
Biker clubs (the naughty boy types) were running
meth, and
manufucturing meth as early as 1968...yes, that's NOT
a typo, from
California, and in Oregon, when I saw my first death
from meth in a
"hippy" campground in the Illinois Valley in Southern
Oregon. For a
journaist, he's badly misinformed on this issue. ]]]

Some will wonder why we should even bother with
treatment for parents who
use drugs. But the reason to "bother" is not for the
sake of the parents,
but for their children -- as we learned from the
last drug plague -- crack.


[[[ Hold your breath...here it comes, the BIG LIE by
removal from
context. See if before you read my response, leave it
off screen while
you read the next item, you can see the hole in this
outrageous claim.
]]]

University of Florida researchers studied two groups
of infants born with
cocaine in their systems. One group was placed in
foster care, the other
with birth mothers able to care for them. After six
months, the babies were
tested using all the usual measures of infant
development: rolling over,
sitting up, reaching out. Consistently, the children
placed with their birth
mothers did better. For the foster children, being
taken from their mothers
was more toxic than the cocaine.


[[[ Ask yourself one question for the answer to this
piece of
frequently peddled TRUE, but bull**** claim. Was a
comparison made
between bio mothers as CPS CLIENTS RECEIVING
SERVICES AND ENROLLED IN
DRUG REHAB PROGRAMS compared to those in the
population NOT so enrolled
and engaged by CPS? The argument is great for making
the claim that
WHEN A MOTHER CAN BE PERSUADED TO SIGN A
CONTRACT...SAFETY OR SERVICE
PLAN...and they show they can stick to it, it's
better than foster
care...that HAS NEVER BEEN IN DISPUTE, for any type
case.

The argument is in fact one of those tricks to lead
you to conclusions
using information that in fact isn't addressing the
problem the
conclusion is asking about. It's not foster vs meth
mom, it's meth
mom IN vs meth mom OUT of the system. For the foster
parents that have
a child of a meth mom who is NOT participating in a
safety plan can't
be compared. In fact if the foster parent was doing
BETTER THAN THE
METH MOM ON A SAFETY PLAN then the damn safety plan
would be a poor
one. This study proves that workers that enroll moms
in such programs
are doing a damn good job of assessing who can and
cannot make it.

OR, fellow humble observers, ALL THE METH MOMS WOULD
BE ON THE PROGRAM.
Think they are? R R R R R ]]]

It is extremely difficult to take a swing at "bad
parents" without the blow
landing on their children. A few states and counties
have learned this
lesson. They take far fewer children than Oregon,
yet independent
court-appointed monitors say child safety has
improved. Oregon once embraced
such reform, but those reforms atrophied over the
past several years.


[[[ Once again, the sly little slide away from
context. ... you are to
assume that conditions in Oregon and those other
states are identical,
thus comparibable. Conditions in Oregon changed,
drastrically. And not
the funding stream so much as the population. Oregon
enjoyed a period
of relative prosperity in the the years that move
upfront services were
offered. From CAPTA to about the early 80s. Man, the
80's were hell on
wheels. The economy began to falter...Regean creamed
Oregon with the
Luxury Import tarrifs, the Gangs from LA found a new
target. Meth had
been boiling under the surface on a smaller scale for
a long time and
began to move out more. The first meth lab I heard of
in my
neighborhood (at time I live in a very upscale
region) was 1986. And
things got worse. There was no "atrophied," there was
a "burying" by
the extremity of rising proverty and drugs. And the
beginning of
cutbacks in funding. ]]]

Now,
the state stumbles around in the child welfare dark
ages because no one is
willing to say there's an elephant in the room.


[[[ And Wexler isn't willing to point to the
elephant's ****, as in
dope, poverty in the weakening economy, influx if
Californians bringing
their problems with them, (huge northward flow --
including drug
culture....and by that I mean meth labs, to the north
country). Anyone
that interviews other journalists or in fact reviews
the media on this
issue finds out immediately what the elephant really
looks like and the
stink of reality that it brought. ]]]


Richard Wexler is executive director of the National
Coalition for Child
Protection Reform.


Yes, we know.

And I think there is some of the straw man phenomena
going on as
well...with the building of a monster that isn't
truly the size and
shape pretended. Or intended for us to believe. The
real problem? Child
abuse. Nothing more or less. And it's not made of
straw. As the public
is learning.

It won't be long now.

0:-



  #6  
Old June 1st 05, 02:28 AM
Pop
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

And this one's just pure Bullcock; no redeeming value
at all.

"Jurassic Pierogi" wrote
in message
ups.com...


Arlene McDermott wrote:
IN MY OPINION Richard Wexler
Tuesday, May 31, 2005

http://www.oregonlive.com/commentary...360.xml&coll=7

Ignoring the elephant in the room won't protect kids


Hmmmmmmmmm. Is Ramona the 'elephant in the room'? I
seen her picture.
Could be.


The recent report on child protection in Oregon
proves the adage that "you
get what you pay for."

The state paid nothing for the report, and that's
pretty much what it got.
It included the following stunning revelations:
Caseloads should be lower.
Training should be better. In convoluted language it
calls for more clarity.
In broad terms it says policies should be more
specific.

But the biggest problem with the report is what's
missing. The report only
hints at "the elephant in the room," the overarching
problem that is driving
all the other failures in Oregon child welfa
Oregon takes away too many
children.

Oregon's caseworkers are overwhelmed because Oregon
takes proportionately
more children than all but 14 other states. It
removes children at a rate
more than 50 percent above the national average.

To some, that may sound like good news. After all,
if a child is wrongfully
removed, it is argued, the parents might suffer, but
we have to "err on the
side of the child." There probably is no phrase in
the English language that
has done more harm to children.


Actually, that's what makes CPS types so dispicable -
they swear the
abuse they heap on the children is for their own
good.


When a child is needlessly thrown into foster care,
he loses not only mom
and dad but often brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles,
grandparents, teachers,
friends and classmates. He is cut loose from
everyone loving and familiar.
The emotional trauma can last a lifetime. A recent
study of Oregon and
Washington state foster care "alumni" found that
one-third said they were
abused in foster care itself and only 20 percent
were "doing well." How can
we throw children into a system that churns out
walking wounded four times
out of five and call it "erring on the side of the
child?"


CPS grinds up innocent children and families for
profit. That the
foster system turns out walking wounded four times
out of five is no
surprise. Folks make a lot of money "erring on the
side of the child".
In fact, many communities have come to depend on CPS
"erring on the
side of the child", packing them into foster care and
gloating over all
the federal bucks they brought home.



Although it is the cases involving parents who beat,
rape and torture their
children that, rightly, get attention, far more
common are cases in which a
family's poverty is confused with "neglect." In
these cases, a child is
taken from a home where there was no abuse and
placed in a system where the
odds of abuse are at least one in three. Jordan
Knapp was thrown into foster
care in the name of "erring on the side of the
child" -- and she nearly
died.


Parents who abuse their children are a rare breed. Do
a google news
search. Whattsamatta??? Is there a news blackout on
all the horrible
abuse that happens 716 times a second especially on
weekends?? Where's
the abuse? Where's the injury? Broken bones?
Hospitalizations?
Whattsamatta? News blackout? It happens all the time
ya know. 5000
children were abused in the time it took you to think
I'm nuts.


But even that isn't the worst of it. The more that
workers are overwhelmed
with children who don't need to be in foster care,
the less time they have
to find children in real danger, children such as
Ashton Parris, for
example.

There is, of course, a one-word excuse for the high
rate of removal in
Oregon: methamphetamine. But Oregon takes,
proportionately, nearly 50
percent more children than California, another state
with a huge meth
problem. And Oregon has been taking children at this
incredibly high rate at
least since 1985, before anyone had heard of meth.


Shhhhhhhhh. Don't be tellin folks it's not Meth's
fault. You'll mess up
the plans for extra billions to deal with the meth
'epidemic'. OMG,
OMG, meth babies, crack babies, quick give us 500
million or the po
chillin will suffer. Hahahahahaha.


Some will wonder why we should even bother with
treatment for parents who
use drugs. But the reason to "bother" is not for the
sake of the parents,
but for their children -- as we learned from the
last drug plague -- crack.

University of Florida researchers studied two groups
of infants born with
cocaine in their systems. One group was placed in
foster care, the other
with birth mothers able to care for them. After six
months, the babies were
tested using all the usual measures of infant
development: rolling over,
sitting up, reaching out. Consistently, the children
placed with their birth
mothers did better. For the foster children, being
taken from their mothers
was more toxic than the cocaine.

It is extremely difficult to take a swing at "bad
parents" without the blow
landing on their children. A few states and counties
have learned this
lesson. They take far fewer children than Oregon,
yet independent
court-appointed monitors say child safety has
improved. Oregon once embraced
such reform, but those reforms atrophied over the
past several years. Now,
the state stumbles around in the child welfare dark
ages because no one is
willing to say there's an elephant in the room.


How 'bout it Ramona. What's up with the elephant and
the dark ages and
stuff. Don't you grease painted 9-5 frozen in time
CPS darkhearts even
want a clue? Do you ever think of the destruction you
leave in your
wake when you're spendin da cash??


Richard Wexler is executive director of the National
Coalition for Child
Protection Reform.




  #7  
Old June 1st 05, 05:41 AM
bobb
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Arlene McDermott" wrote in message
news:1117533675.d50a4e60e3b38b89b2b00d79279d426a@t eranews...
IN MY OPINION Richard Wexler
Tuesday, May 31, 2005

http://www.oregonlive.com/commentary...360.xml&coll=7

Ignoring the elephant in the room won't protect kids

The recent report on child protection in Oregon proves the adage that "you
get what you pay for."

The state paid nothing for the report, and that's pretty much what it got.
It included the following stunning revelations: Caseloads should be lower.
Training should be better. In convoluted language it calls for more
clarity. In broad terms it says policies should be more specific.

But the biggest problem with the report is what's missing. The report only
hints at "the elephant in the room," the overarching problem that is
driving all the other failures in Oregon child welfa Oregon takes away
too many children.

Oregon's caseworkers are overwhelmed because Oregon takes proportionately
more children than all but 14 other states. It removes children at a rate
more than 50 percent above the national average.

To some, that may sound like good news. After all, if a child is
wrongfully removed, it is argued, the parents might suffer, but we have to
"err on the side of the child." There probably is no phrase in the English
language that has done more harm to children.

When a child is needlessly thrown into foster care, he loses not only mom
and dad but often brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles, grandparents,
teachers, friends and classmates. He is cut loose from everyone loving and
familiar. The emotional trauma can last a lifetime. A recent study of
Oregon and Washington state foster care "alumni" found that one-third said
they were abused in foster care itself and only 20 percent were "doing
well." How can we throw children into a system that churns out walking
wounded four times out of five and call it "erring on the side of the
child?"


Thanks, for the very insightful thought. It's the same conconclusion I've
used (as have others) but we have too many people here who are probably
employed by Oregon and fight against us.


Although it is the cases involving parents who beat, rape and torture
their children that, rightly, get attention, far more common are cases in
which a family's poverty is confused with "neglect." In these cases, a
child is taken from a home where there was no abuse and placed in a system
where the odds of abuse are at least one in three. Jordan Knapp was thrown
into foster care in the name of "erring on the side of the child" -- and
she nearly died.

But even that isn't the worst of it. The more that workers are overwhelmed
with children who don't need to be in foster care, the less time they have
to find children in real danger, children such as Ashton Parris, for
example.


Ya know, some states spend millions of dollars on studies only to come to
the same conclusion. How much did you get paid? Probably the same as,
Doug. Zero. Ziltch. Nothing.


There is, of course, a one-word excuse for the high rate of removal in
Oregon: methamphetamine. But Oregon takes, proportionately, nearly 50
percent more children than California, another state with a huge meth
problem. And Oregon has been taking children at this incredibly high rate
at least since 1985, before anyone had heard of meth.

Some will wonder why we should even bother with treatment for parents who
use drugs. But the reason to "bother" is not for the sake of the parents,
but for their children -- as we learned from the last drug plague --
crack.

University of Florida researchers studied two groups of infants born with
cocaine in their systems. One group was placed in foster care, the other
with birth mothers able to care for them. After six months, the babies
were tested using all the usual measures of infant development: rolling
over, sitting up, reaching out. Consistently, the children placed with
their birth mothers did better. For the foster children, being taken from
their mothers was more toxic than the cocaine.


I do hope 'others' read this. They're trapped in their own
preconceptions... inside a little box. Hmmm... inside a little box that
should have rubber walls. :-)

bobb


It is extremely difficult to take a swing at "bad parents" without the
blow landing on their children. A few states and counties have learned
this lesson. They take far fewer children than Oregon, yet independent
court-appointed monitors say child safety has improved. Oregon once
embraced such reform, but those reforms atrophied over the past several
years. Now, the state stumbles around in the child welfare dark ages
because no one is willing to say there's an elephant in the room.

Richard Wexler is executive director of the National Coalition for Child
Protection Reform.




  #8  
Old June 1st 05, 11:38 AM
Arlene McDermott
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Jurassic Pierogi" wrote in message
ups.com...


Arlene McDermott wrote:
IN MY OPINION Richard Wexler
Tuesday, May 31, 2005

http://www.oregonlive.com/commentary...360.xml&coll=7

Ignoring the elephant in the room won't protect kids


Hmmmmmmmmm. Is Ramona the 'elephant in the room'? I seen her picture.
Could be.


The recent report on child protection in Oregon proves the adage that
"you
get what you pay for."

The state paid nothing for the report, and that's pretty much what it
got.
It included the following stunning revelations: Caseloads should be
lower.
Training should be better. In convoluted language it calls for more
clarity.
In broad terms it says policies should be more specific.

But the biggest problem with the report is what's missing. The report
only
hints at "the elephant in the room," the overarching problem that is
driving
all the other failures in Oregon child welfa Oregon takes away too
many
children.

Oregon's caseworkers are overwhelmed because Oregon takes proportionately
more children than all but 14 other states. It removes children at a rate
more than 50 percent above the national average.

To some, that may sound like good news. After all, if a child is
wrongfully
removed, it is argued, the parents might suffer, but we have to "err on
the
side of the child." There probably is no phrase in the English language
that
has done more harm to children.


Actually, that's what makes CPS types so dispicable - they swear the
abuse they heap on the children is for their own good.


When a child is needlessly thrown into foster care, he loses not only mom
and dad but often brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles, grandparents,
teachers,
friends and classmates. He is cut loose from everyone loving and
familiar.
The emotional trauma can last a lifetime. A recent study of Oregon and
Washington state foster care "alumni" found that one-third said they were
abused in foster care itself and only 20 percent were "doing well." How
can
we throw children into a system that churns out walking wounded four
times
out of five and call it "erring on the side of the child?"


CPS grinds up innocent children and families for profit. That the
foster system turns out walking wounded four times out of five is no
surprise. Folks make a lot of money "erring on the side of the child".
In fact, many communities have come to depend on CPS "erring on the
side of the child", packing them into foster care and gloating over all
the federal bucks they brought home.



Although it is the cases involving parents who beat, rape and torture
their
children that, rightly, get attention, far more common are cases in which
a
family's poverty is confused with "neglect." In these cases, a child is
taken from a home where there was no abuse and placed in a system where
the
odds of abuse are at least one in three. Jordan Knapp was thrown into
foster
care in the name of "erring on the side of the child" -- and she nearly
died.


Parents who abuse their children are a rare breed. Do a google news
search. Whattsamatta??? Is there a news blackout on all the horrible
abuse that happens 716 times a second especially on weekends?? Where's
the abuse? Where's the injury? Broken bones? Hospitalizations?
Whattsamatta? News blackout? It happens all the time ya know. 5000
children were abused in the time it took you to think I'm nuts.


Damn. How'd you know that? I just did the search. Saw lots of orgs that
exist on the notion of child abuse, but couldn't find one parent who'd been
arrested, charged, or convicted of child abuse - unless I include China and
Africa like Kalamity does.

Doesn't CPS seize a thousand children a day? Where's the abuse?



But even that isn't the worst of it. The more that workers are
overwhelmed
with children who don't need to be in foster care, the less time they
have
to find children in real danger, children such as Ashton Parris, for
example.

There is, of course, a one-word excuse for the high rate of removal in
Oregon: methamphetamine. But Oregon takes, proportionately, nearly 50
percent more children than California, another state with a huge meth
problem. And Oregon has been taking children at this incredibly high rate
at
least since 1985, before anyone had heard of meth.


Shhhhhhhhh. Don't be tellin folks it's not Meth's fault. You'll mess up
the plans for extra billions to deal with the meth 'epidemic'. OMG,
OMG, meth babies, crack babies, quick give us 500 million or the po
chillin will suffer. Hahahahahaha.


Some will wonder why we should even bother with treatment for parents who
use drugs. But the reason to "bother" is not for the sake of the parents,
but for their children -- as we learned from the last drug plague --
crack.

University of Florida researchers studied two groups of infants born with
cocaine in their systems. One group was placed in foster care, the other
with birth mothers able to care for them. After six months, the babies
were
tested using all the usual measures of infant development: rolling over,
sitting up, reaching out. Consistently, the children placed with their
birth
mothers did better. For the foster children, being taken from their
mothers
was more toxic than the cocaine.

It is extremely difficult to take a swing at "bad parents" without the
blow
landing on their children. A few states and counties have learned this
lesson. They take far fewer children than Oregon, yet independent
court-appointed monitors say child safety has improved. Oregon once
embraced
such reform, but those reforms atrophied over the past several years.
Now,
the state stumbles around in the child welfare dark ages because no one
is
willing to say there's an elephant in the room.


How 'bout it Ramona. What's up with the elephant and the dark ages and
stuff. Don't you grease painted 9-5 frozen in time CPS darkhearts even
want a clue? Do you ever think of the destruction you leave in your
wake when you're spendin da cash??


Richard Wexler is executive director of the National Coalition for Child
Protection Reform.




  #9  
Old June 1st 05, 04:49 PM
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default



bobb wrote:
"Arlene McDermott" wrote in message
news:1117533675.d50a4e60e3b38b89b2b00d79279d426a@t eranews...
IN MY OPINION Richard Wexler
Tuesday, May 31, 2005

http://www.oregonlive.com/commentary...360.xml&coll=7

Ignoring the elephant in the room won't protect kids

The recent report on child protection in Oregon proves the adage that "you
get what you pay for."

The state paid nothing for the report, and that's pretty much what it got.
It included the following stunning revelations: Caseloads should be lower.
Training should be better. In convoluted language it calls for more
clarity. In broad terms it says policies should be more specific.

But the biggest problem with the report is what's missing. The report only
hints at "the elephant in the room," the overarching problem that is
driving all the other failures in Oregon child welfa Oregon takes away
too many children.

Oregon's caseworkers are overwhelmed because Oregon takes proportionately
more children than all but 14 other states. It removes children at a rate
more than 50 percent above the national average.

To some, that may sound like good news. After all, if a child is
wrongfully removed, it is argued, the parents might suffer, but we have to
"err on the side of the child." There probably is no phrase in the English
language that has done more harm to children.

When a child is needlessly thrown into foster care, he loses not only mom
and dad but often brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles, grandparents,
teachers, friends and classmates. He is cut loose from everyone loving and
familiar. The emotional trauma can last a lifetime. A recent study of
Oregon and Washington state foster care "alumni" found that one-third said
they were abused in foster care itself and only 20 percent were "doing
well." How can we throw children into a system that churns out walking
wounded four times out of five and call it "erring on the side of the
child?"


Thanks, for the very insightful thought.


You are replying to a copy and paste from an article by Wexler posted
here by someone else. Whom are you thanking?

As for insightful..yes, based on the paucity of information you bring
to this ng and...

It's the same conconclusion I've
used (as have others)


How have you used this "same conclusion?" Are you suggesting that
Wexler's "four times out of five" "walking wounded" he appears to be
claiming CPS is the cause of? No mention of the origins of these
children?

I doubt there's a foster parent present or past, that would agree with
you, as they see the children come in as often carried "wounded."

but we have too many people here who are probably
employed by Oregon and fight against us.


This statement is on a par with Wexler's lack of precision and
deficiency of support for claims. Exactly who do you think is emplyed
by Oregon in this ng, and what would they be doing fighting "against
you" other than telling you the facts as they know them...if they were
here?

It's you that suffers from lack of information, and misinterpretation
of what you do see.

As for myself, I am not employeed by anyone, other than my own company.
Which I own with one partner. And we do not contract with anyone, let
alone the state of Oregon. We are producers not in any service
business.

So who's left, Doug? Does he work for the state of Oregon?

Although it is the cases involving parents who beat, rape and torture
their children that, rightly, get attention, far more common are cases in
which a family's poverty is confused with "neglect." In these cases, a
child is taken from a home where there was no abuse and placed in a system
where the odds of abuse are at least one in three. Jordan Knapp was thrown
into foster care in the name of "erring on the side of the child" -- and
she nearly died.

But even that isn't the worst of it. The more that workers are overwhelmed
with children who don't need to be in foster care, the less time they have
to find children in real danger, children such as Ashton Parris, for
example.


Ya know, some states spend millions of dollars on studies only to come to
the same conclusion. How much did you get paid? Probably the same as,
Doug. Zero. Ziltch. Nothing.


Wexler is a journalist that is on the board of directors of a group
that has a boner for CPS and those who do studies....just like HIS
organization. And they most assuredly get paid. They would be in
competition with the group that just did the Oregon study referred to
by Wexler in his article.

There is, of course, a one-word excuse for the high rate of removal in
Oregon: methamphetamine. But Oregon takes, proportionately, nearly 50
percent more children than California, another state with a huge meth
problem. And Oregon has been taking children at this incredibly high rate
at least since 1985, before anyone had heard of meth.

Some will wonder why we should even bother with treatment for parents who
use drugs. But the reason to "bother" is not for the sake of the parents,
but for their children -- as we learned from the last drug plague --
crack.

University of Florida researchers studied two groups of infants born with
cocaine in their systems. One group was placed in foster care, the other
with birth mothers able to care for them. After six months, the babies
were tested using all the usual measures of infant development: rolling
over, sitting up, reaching out. Consistently, the children placed with
their birth mothers did better. For the foster children, being taken from
their mothers was more toxic than the cocaine.


I do hope 'others' read this. They're trapped in their own
preconceptions... inside a little box. Hmmm... inside a little box that
should have rubber walls. :-)


The fact is Wexler, just as you folks love to do, cites out of context.
There is a decided difference in four populations that actually would
and should be compared. One -- meth mothers who qualify for a client
program and service plan that would undoubtedly include getting clean,
staying clean, being closely monitored; two -- meth mother clients who
could not qualify...may not have wanted to qualify, whose children
might well have been so compromised by exposure to drugs they are
special needs with severe health complications; three -- foster parents
who would be like to take these more severely compromised children
(hence the developmental disparity); and finally, four -- those meth
mothers who have not as yet been discovered and are not in the
system....how would THIER children test?

This, bobber, is a prime example of the game of journalism, which
Wexler "works for" as in sells his writting to....to create a bias
that appeals to a particular purchasing demographic....media that feeds
it to the public for READERSHIP TO SELL ADVERTISING. The greater the
distribution, the more in demand the ad space the greater the dollar
per inch they get for it.

Do you not think the media would not be looking for the most "gee ain't
it awful" slant on any issues?

Wexler fills that slot nicely. And that's not a criticism of him. It is
simply recognition that if I want information that has real weight to
it, that I can winkle out some facts from that meet some logical tests,
like CONTEXT, I usually do not go to the popular media.

In fact, I blush to post some of the articles on parental abuses that
come through the that media, because the majority are NOT about
convictions but about charges....two disaparate things. I try to watch
for the outcomes, and if I found someone later found innocent and I had
posted the article where they had only been charged, I would post the
followup.

Problem is, those have less "bleeding" so they don't, even though
printed, rise to the front page or top of the bottle to find as easily
as the gory first exposures of outrageous treatment of children.

You, as usual, are easily taken in by less than rigorous reporting.
Keep up the good work. You make an excellent example to point to when I
take such articles apart, as I did in my other response to this bit of
slanted journalism.

Check out the title of the author below. Do a look up on the
organization. Even their mission statement reeks of empty rhetoric. The
even start it with the construction of some mythical "other" group that
is claimed to do things no evidence if forthcoming to support. The
refuse to identify "the bad guys," and that, bobber, in debating
parlance, is called the logical fallacy of The Strawman.....we can all
agree something is wrong, so, to keep your attention off the fact no
proofs are forthcoming, you are invited to join in the beating and
flailing of straw.

When that's over, you are then ripe, all flushed with your great
heroism, to believe just about anything that will continue to support
your puffed up indignation...and NOT demand proofs.

Enjoy yourself, as you always do, at this little games.

bobb



0:-



It is extremely difficult to take a swing at "bad parents" without the
blow landing on their children. A few states and counties have learned
this lesson. They take far fewer children than Oregon, yet independent
court-appointed monitors say child safety has improved. Oregon once
embraced such reform, but those reforms atrophied over the past several
years. Now, the state stumbles around in the child welfare dark ages
because no one is willing to say there's an elephant in the room.

Richard Wexler is executive director of the National Coalition for Child
Protection Reform.



  #10  
Old June 1st 05, 09:28 PM
Pop
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"bobb" bob@somewhere wrote in message
...

"Arlene McDermott" wrote in
message
news:1117533675.d50a4e60e3b38b89b2b00d79279d426a@t eranews...
IN MY OPINION Richard Wexler
Tuesday, May 31, 2005

http://www.oregonlive.com/commentary...360.xml&coll=7

Ignoring the elephant in the room won't protect kids

The recent report on child protection in Oregon
proves the adage that "you get what you pay for."

The state paid nothing for the report, and that's
pretty much what it got. It included the following
stunning revelations: Caseloads should be lower.
Training should be better. In convoluted language it
calls for more clarity. In broad terms it says
policies should be more specific.

But the biggest problem with the report is what's
missing. The report only hints at "the elephant in
the room," the overarching problem that is driving
all the other failures in Oregon child welfa
Oregon takes away too many children.

Oregon's caseworkers are overwhelmed because Oregon
takes proportionately more children than all but 14
other states. It removes children at a rate more
than 50 percent above the national average.

To some, that may sound like good news. After all,
if a child is wrongfully removed, it is argued, the
parents might suffer, but we have to "err on the
side of the child." There probably is no phrase in
the English language that has done more harm to
children.

When a child is needlessly thrown into foster care,
he loses not only mom and dad but often brothers,
sisters, aunts, uncles, grandparents, teachers,
friends and classmates. He is cut loose from
everyone loving and familiar. The emotional trauma
can last a lifetime. A recent study of Oregon and
Washington state foster care "alumni" found that
one-third said they were abused in foster care
itself and only 20 percent were "doing well." How
can we throw children into a system that churns out
walking wounded four times out of five and call it
"erring on the side of the child?"


Thanks, for the very insightful thought. It's the
same conconclusion I've used (as have others) but we
have too many people here who are probably employed
by Oregon and fight against us.


Although it is the cases involving parents who beat,
rape and torture their children that, rightly, get
attention, far more common are cases in which a
family's poverty is confused with "neglect." In
these cases, a child is taken from a home where
there was no abuse and placed in a system where the
odds of abuse are at least one in three. Jordan
Knapp was thrown into foster care in the name of
"erring on the side of the child" -- and she nearly
died.

But even that isn't the worst of it. The more that
workers are overwhelmed with children who don't need
to be in foster care, the less time they have to
find children in real danger, children such as
Ashton Parris, for example.


Ya know, some states spend millions of dollars on
studies only to come to the same conclusion. How
much did you get paid? Probably the same as, Doug.
Zero. Ziltch. Nothing.


There is, of course, a one-word excuse for the high
rate of removal in Oregon: methamphetamine. But
Oregon takes, proportionately, nearly 50 percent
more children than California, another state with a
huge meth problem. And Oregon has been taking
children at this incredibly high rate at least since
1985, before anyone had heard of meth.

Some will wonder why we should even bother with
treatment for parents who use drugs. But the reason
to "bother" is not for the sake of the parents, but
for their children -- as we learned from the last
drug plague -- crack.

University of Florida researchers studied two groups
of infants born with cocaine in their systems. One
group was placed in foster care, the other with
birth mothers able to care for them. After six
months, the babies were tested using all the usual
measures of infant development: rolling over,
sitting up, reaching out. Consistently, the children
placed with their birth mothers did better. For the
foster children, being taken from their mothers was
more toxic than the cocaine.


I do hope 'others' read this. They're trapped in
their own preconceptions... inside a little box.
Hmmm... inside a little box that should have rubber
walls. :-)

bobb


It is extremely difficult to take a swing at "bad
parents" without the blow landing on their children.
A few states and counties have learned this lesson.
They take far fewer children than Oregon, yet
independent court-appointed monitors say child
safety has improved. Oregon once embraced such
reform, but those reforms atrophied over the past
several years. Now, the state stumbles around in the
child welfare dark ages because no one is willing to
say there's an elephant in the room.

Richard Wexler is executive director of the National
Coalition for Child Protection Reform.






 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Spanking is Violence in the Netherlands now. Kane Spanking 23 March 23rd 05 01:21 AM
Are OBs Bible-based? Is home schooling child abuse? Todd Gastaldo Pregnancy 0 March 15th 05 03:38 AM
Paternity Fraud - US Supreme Court Wizardlaw Child Support 12 June 4th 04 02:19 AM
Sample US Supreme Court Petition Wizardlaw Child Support 28 January 21st 04 06:23 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 06:29 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 ParentingBanter.com.
The comments are property of their posters.