Homework for a 5 year old - how much involvement needed.

"Banty" wrote in message
...
In article , Stephanie says...


"Banty" wrote in message
...
In article , toto says...

On Tue, 15 Nov 2005 08:10:08 -0500, Ericka Kammerer
wrote:

They clearly weren't looking for a "how" answer.
They asked a question, and then asked "Why?" (i.e.,
why was the answer the answer).

But was it a word problem rather than a simple arithmetic
equation?

Even that.

*Why* exactly does it add to walk at a certain speed x along the travel
direction of a train going at speed y?


What does that question even ask? It adds to walk?

The *best* thing I could come up with verbally would be that, if one is
walking
in the same direction, it would add, as opposed to subtracting (that would
be if
the train and the person were in opposite directions).

But that does't quite get to *why* it adds. Can one verbalize, for
instance,
exactly why it doesn't multiply?

Adds what to what? Are you trying to say that the person is inside
a moving train and is walking in the same direction as the train is
going? And what you are trying to figure out is the total speed the
person is traveling in relation to the earth?

Bizby

"Banty" wrote in message
...
In article , toto says...

On Wed, 16 Nov 2005 11:22:34 -0600, "Nikki" wrote:

There is no internal vocabulary happening at all so
they are naturally going to have difficulty writing a
sentence to explain their work even though they have
a great understanding of the concept.

Perhaps they can draw a picture of what they do then?

One of my son's best hs math teachers memorized phone
numbers by the pattern on the touch tone rather than by
memorizing the numbers. He could probably have drawn
the pad out and shown the pattern rather than writing down
the actual phone number.

But, as it was explained to me, the *point* of the written answer was to
give
practice in writing and to assure that the child had reasoned it out.

One would *think* they can draw a picture. But no, words were expected.

My son often does both. He'll draw a picture or diagram and
then explain it in words.

Bizby

"Banty" wrote in message
...
In article , Stephanie says...


"Banty" wrote in message
...
In article , toto says...

On Tue, 15 Nov 2005 08:10:08 -0500, Ericka Kammerer
wrote:

They clearly weren't looking for a "how" answer.
They asked a question, and then asked "Why?" (i.e.,
why was the answer the answer).

But was it a word problem rather than a simple arithmetic
equation?

Even that.

*Why* exactly does it add to walk at a certain speed x along the travel
direction of a train going at speed y?


What does that question even ask? It adds to walk?

The *best* thing I could come up with verbally would be that, if one is
walking
in the same direction, it would add, as opposed to subtracting (that would
be if
the train and the person were in opposite directions).

But that does't quite get to *why* it adds. Can one verbalize, for
instance,
exactly why it doesn't multiply?


What on earth? Is this supposed to be a question about relative motion? I
think any question that a parent cannot even figure out what is being
written needs to be sent back to the teacher with an F. I can't verbalize a
question which I cannot understand.

Though verbalizing relative velocity or speed I suppose must be possible
because it was explained to me. If that is even what we are talking about.



Banty

bizby40 wrote:
"Ericka Kammerer" wrote in message
...

bizby40 wrote:


I don't personally insist on anything. I also don't deconstruct
everything
done in class to decide which parts I do and don't like. I do try to
understand the value in the things they do. I do talk to the teachers
and try to find alternatives if what they are doing is in some way
problematic for my child. But I don't decide that because something
was difficult for my child and/or not intuitive for me, that it had no
value and should be gotten rid of altogether.

But you are, to some extent, deconstructing the
experiences of those who've found that there are significant
parts of the educational system that are detrimental to
their children's education and their family life (parts
which are trending to become more popular all around).
To me, the issue is not about nit-picking
and getting bent out of shape over a little issue.
If that's all it was, most of us would just brush it
off and move on. It's that it's a *pattern* of issues
that are on the increase that I believe are detrimental
*in general*. Part of that has to do with trends toward
overspecifying how kids ought to do things. I think
it's a far better approach to:

1) Use multiple approaches in class, where you have
to address all children with different abilities
and styles at once.

And they seem to be doing that. In fact, this very thing
seems to be what some parents are complaining about.

I hear most of the complaining about the
homework.

2) Give guidance on different ways to learn and study
for different abilities and learning styles (e.g.,
the handout at the beginning of the year that lists
27 different techniques for studying spelling words).


Yes, this is good. And our school does this in various
ways. They have newsletters that come home periodically
with tips in them. They suggest education-related games
and activities on the school calendar. The teachers
talk about some of the techniques they use at various
school functions throughout the year.


3) Give homework that is *results* oriented. In other
words, tell them they need to know the spelling words
by the end of the week, and leave it up to the child
to figure out how best to do that for him- or herself.
If the child can't do that, the parent can assist or
the teacher can make some specific recommendations for
that child


I disagree with the first part of this, and agree with the
second. That is, if they want to just send home the list,
that would be fine with me. But I don't see a problem
with them giving a spelling assignment as long as they
are willing to listen to a parent who comes to them and
explains that it isn't working for their child.

That's nice in theory, but if you start with
the assumption that kids learn differently (which is
inherent in all the above--if they didn't, then a
one-size-fits-all approach to teaching would be just
fine for everyone), then you accept that when you
send that spelling assignment home, it's not going
to be just one kid who has an issue. It's going to
be several, and teachers are *not* going to deal
with a whole host of parents quibbling about whether
the homework is suitable.
Also, you can't reduce it to the issue of
it being okay to send home "a" spelling assignment.
Of *course* it's fine to send home "a" spelling
assignment. The problem comes when they're sending
home a spelling packet (which requires writing a
poem that uses 10 spelling words) *and* a vocabulary
packet (which requires them to draw a picture
illustrating the meaning of each word) *and* a
math worksheet (that requires them to write a
paragraph on interpreting a graph) *and* a
science assignment (for which they need to build
a model of an insect and write a report describing
its life cycle/metamorphosis/habitat/predators/
uses/etc. along with illustrations) *and* a
social studies project, *and* required reading
time, *and* required writing time, etc.. Oh, and
then repeat the same sort of thing next week.
*That's* where it gets to be a real issue. It's
not that any single assignment in isolation is
so terrible. It's that the *aggregate* means that
kids end up doing a half hour's worth of learning,
but spend two hours doing it because of all the
"fun" gimmicks or the integrated curriculum. I
*agree* that an integrated curriculum isn't
inherently a bad idea, but it's one that can
go horribly awry in implementation. In an
ideal integrated curriculum you get synergies
from the integration. When it's less well
done, you just get extra work.

Best wishes,
Ericka

"Banty" wrote in message
...
In article , bizby40 says...


"Banty" wrote in message
...

It's not arbitrary. It's about integrating skills when they've been
mastered to
some extent separately. There's a long way between having to have all
skills in
place just to learn to *add*, vs. the whole thing being arbitrary.

We've been around this tree so many times that I'm having trouble
keeping straight exactly what we're talking about. I have already
agreed that marking down for incorrect spelling is stupid (esp. in
the early grades) and I don't think there should be any incorrect
answers as long as the child has described their thought processes
as well as they can. I just don't see getting the child to examine
those thought processes as inherently bad. I don't really see it
as hiding an English lesson in a math lesson either.

Because you simply can't understand that the reasoning process isn't
necessarily
one that can be verbally described.

No, I can't. And I haven't yet seen an example here.

What if a second grader could *never* *never* be allowed to turn in a
poem
or
essay without adding the number of syllables per line, and got graded on
doing
that correctly? What would that do to a budding poet who has arithmetic
skills
that weren't up to the task?

Is that really what happened with your son? My kids regularly bring home
math worksheets that are just rows and columns of numbers. Starting in
2nd grade, they have "Math Mad Minutes" which are really a minute and
a half in which the child has to answer 30 math problems correctly. They
start with addition facts below 10. When they get a 30 on that mad
minute, they get to go to subtraction facts, then to addition and
subtraction
involving numbers up to 20. Then multiplication and division. It's a
chance for the mathematically oriented children to shine.

No that's not math (or arithmetic) either! The kids that shine on that
are the
ones good at *memorization*!

But isn't that where we started? That teachers were expecting 7+5 to
be "explained"? That there is no way to explain something that just
is because it is?

Bizby

In article , bizby40 says...


"Banty" wrote in message
...
In article , Stephanie says...


"Banty" wrote in message
...
In article , toto says...

On Tue, 15 Nov 2005 08:10:08 -0500, Ericka Kammerer
wrote:

They clearly weren't looking for a "how" answer.
They asked a question, and then asked "Why?" (i.e.,
why was the answer the answer).

But was it a word problem rather than a simple arithmetic
equation?

Even that.

*Why* exactly does it add to walk at a certain speed x along the travel
direction of a train going at speed y?


What does that question even ask? It adds to walk?

The *best* thing I could come up with verbally would be that, if one is
walking
in the same direction, it would add, as opposed to subtracting (that would
be if
the train and the person were in opposite directions).

But that does't quite get to *why* it adds. Can one verbalize, for
instance,
exactly why it doesn't multiply?

Adds what to what? Are you trying to say that the person is inside
a moving train and is walking in the same direction as the train is
going? And what you are trying to figure out is the total speed the
person is traveling in relation to the earth?

It's a typical word problem - if a person is walking in a train at velocity x,
and the train is going in that same direction at velocity y, what is the total
velocity the person is travelling in relation to the earth.

Of course it's x+y.

But *why*. That it's not x-y is not really the whole answer.

One can at least handle this one by saying "you add x and y because x and y is
in the same direction". But it's not *quite* the whole answer.

When my son answered this (he did get this marked as ok), he wasn't sure he had
answered it. Sort of like hearing a lame joke, 'getting' the punchline, the
feeling you get that "no, it can't be *that*, that's too lame, there must be
something I missed".

Banty

Jeanne wrote:

I hope you never run into a bad teacher or worse, curriculum. They do
exist and they do impact our children. Again, this is yet another
factor why we're supplementing at home and considering private school
(why do you think private schools exist? It's not just for status.)

Well, it is for some ;-) I wouldn't make this a public
vs. private thing. In my experience, public and private schools
are just as vulnerable to these sorts of issues.

Actually, I get the feeling that DD's teacher is pretty good but she's
constrained by the curriculum that asks these questions (the teacher
doesn't make up the worksheets) and there is little to no leeway (you
have to use the worksheets).

Lots of schools are giving teachers a lot less
leeway because of high stakes testing. Not all go as
far as insisting on particular worksheets, but the
trend is toward more and more conformity to ensure
that the kids get sufficient exposure to the material
that will be on the test.

Best wishes,
Ericka

bizby40 wrote:

If my child was bad at math, and if that was causing him to
get bad grades across all his subjects, I can see that I would
be frustrated. I might even feel that it wasn't fair. I'd also
feel that it was vitally important that he learn his math. I'd
ramp up our practice at home, I might consider tutoring if
I felt there was a real need.

But what if he was *great* at math? Certainly,
my kids have never had any issue learning math. It's
definitely their long suit. So, piling on with time-
consuming homework in math is completely unnecessary
thing for them, and one that leads to lots of negative
consequences--including less time for us to work
independently on the areas where they *are* more
challenged. All of these issues are interrelated.
There is only a limited amount of time in the day.
*That's* why things get problematic.

Best wishes,
Ericka

On Wed, 16 Nov 2005 17:42:33 +0000 (UTC), enigma
wrote:

toto wrote in
:

On Wed, 16 Nov 2005 12:43:13 +0000 (UTC), enigma
wrote:

my 7th grade calculus teacher used to throw chalk at us
for
incorrect answers. he got angry & put his fist through the
wall once...

Fascinating. Where in NY did they teach calculus in 7th
grade? And when?

Chelmsford,Mass. i was in an accellerated 'division'. it was
1965/66, because i was 11. that guy scared the crap out of me
(although i learned to sleep with my eyes open & pencil moving
in his class).
it may have been experimental, i don't know. the divisions
were declared illegal tracking by the time i was in 8th grade.
lee

Cool. I didn't know anywhere that experimented with this.
We took Algebra in 8th and Geometry in 9th, but nothing more
advanced than that in my little town in NY state.

My ds and dd took Algebra in 7th and 8th grades, respectively
and went to the HS the following years for geometry. Some
kids in ds's class were done with Calc in 10th grade (two
years including multivariable) and they took there junior and
senior math at Northwestern, but there were not too many
kids like that even in this school.


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

bizby40 wrote:

So, my answer was addressing the hypothetical situation that
I had a child who struggled with math and yet was required to
incorporate math into every subject the way Banty's son who
struggles verbally is required to incorporate writing into every
subject.

Even in that case, it is silly to whack him
over the head with indirect work. People have a
limited amount of energy for focused, high quality
cognitive work. School eats up a lot of that for
kids. When they get home to do their homework,
it makes a lot of sense for their homework to be
efficiently targeted towards their needs whenever
possible. If you take the kid who is strong in
math and weak in writing and load up all the
homework up with writing, you can't even save
the math homework for the end knowing that he
can still do it even with his mental energy
flagging. It's going to be a long, hard slog
(and he's going to be learning and retaining
less with every passing minute). As I said
elsewhere, all the issues are interrelated.
If you've only got one minor issue going on,
you can cope. Start putting them together and
you've got an untenable situation *really*
fast.

Best wishes,
Ericka