Homework for a 5 year old - how much involvement needed.

"bizby40" wrote:

"Ericka Kammerer" wrote in message
...
bizby40 wrote:

Sure I acknowledged I'd be frustrated. And I've said all
along that I don't think kids should be graded down for
language mistakes in their math work. But I don't think
kids should just not do the work that they are weaker
at.

No one suggested they shouldn't have to do any
work in their weaker area. The question is whether
they should have to struggle with their weak area
in *every* *single* *thing* they do. People who are
constantly having their noses rubbed in their
deficiencies get disheartened and burned out.

It is a fact of life that we use language to communicate
in almost all areas of life. That makes it a special case.

Yes we use language a lot, but I don't think that makes it a special
case. There are after all people who go most of their lives without
being able to read. Some people do not need to know how to write (I
did an inspection at a lumber mill that was owned by a man who could
not read or write much, but he was a pretty successful businessman. I
suspect he had learning disabilities in addition to a wall eye so he
probably couldn't see well. He had a secretary and an accountant.)

And then there are people like myself who go their whole lives in a
technical field without ever having had calculus, while DH and most of
our children are good at math type things. Two dds were math majors
and one has her masters in math and the other one has an engineering
degree as does one of my granddaughters.

My dad NEVER read anything for pleasure, and dh rarely reads books of
fiction. About as far as he goes is Reader's Digest.

And furthermore, some of the difficulties that people have with
various aspects of academics are likely to be because they think they
can't do it and so they stop trying. That's the real danger with all
of this. One of the reasons that my dd#2 enrolled her son in Kumon (I
think that's the way you spell it - it's a math program) was because
he was starting to think (based on trouble in school) that he was
stupid and couldn't do math. After the Kumon practice and drill got
him up to speed and ahead of his fellow students, he knew that he
could do math and became more confident in other areas too.

It is important that the kids have a basic grounding in math, and
reading and writing, but whether they need more than the basics
depends a bit on what they want to do later in life. And what they
want to do later in life may also depend on what experiences and
difficulties they've had in school. Not many people pick what they
want to do by going against their natural talents and make themselves
succeed by sheer bloody mindedness. Most people prefer to do
something that they are good at.

Yes, it's unfortunate that there are those (including my
son) who struggle with reading, writing, and spelling.
But it doesn't change the matter any.

Your son may just have to grown into being able to read write and
spell. Especially spelling - that really takes a long time.

With dd#1, I used to go to the library with a list of books that
children typically liked on various subjects and look for them there.
It was a VERY small library - little more than 2 rooms. And if the
library didn't have any of the books, I put in an interlibrary loan
request. By the next week, the books were there, and we took them out
and I gave them another list of requests.

DD#2 was a little more like her dad and it wasn't until hs when she
did much reading. She happened to be in a non-academic English class
(due to scheduling) and the teacher wanted to get them into the habit
of reading so she required only that they read some number of chapter
books and do some type of report - could be a poster or a written
report or an oral report they could pick from several options. And so
I went to the library and picked out books that I thought wouldn't
bore her (I got her some of the Mrs. Polifox books which were about a
woman about the age of her grandmother who traveled like her
grandmother, but unlike her grandmother worked for the CIA). She
still doesn't read much, but she can.



grandma Rosalie

In article ,
"bizby40" wrote:

"Banty" wrote in message
...
In article , bizby40 says...


"Banty" wrote in message
...
In article , bizby40 says...
It seems unlikely that the child picked 608 completely at random.
It's most likely that she took 308 and added something easy
(300) and then wrote the problem in reverse order. So the
teacher was probably looking for something like, "I took
308 and added 300 to it to get 608, and then turned it
around." Or if she'd picked 762 as her starting number, she
could write, "I picked a number that I knew was bigger than
308 and then subtracted from it." It seems to me that your
DD's "explanation" didn't really explain her thought processes
at all.

She may not be quite aware that that's what she did.

Aha! Now you're getting it. These "How" and "why"
questions are designed to make the child think about
how they solved something. And perhaps as they clue
in more to the strategies they are using, they will be
able to better apply those strategies in new situations.
Or perhaps when someone else in their class describes
the strategy *they* used, your child will realize that
the way they did it was better, and apply it next
time.

Do kids, after writing poetry, need to write how they came up with the
rhymes?
Would you think that a useful addition to the task?

How about if they count up the syllables in each poem, calculate the mean
and
standard deviation, and strive to decrease the standard deviation. They
can
calculate several after having written several limericks, for the
different
lenghts of lines required.

That way they can get self-feedback on a measure of the quality of their
poetry.

Would you support something like that?

You know, if they had them do something like that, I'd
consider it a math assignment, and since they need to learn
math as well as English, that would be fine by me.

Bizby



Would it also be OK with you if they got a lower grade on ENGLISH if the
math was incorrect?

--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

In article ,
"bizby40" wrote:

"Ericka Kammerer" wrote in message
...
bizby40 wrote:

Sure I acknowledged I'd be frustrated. And I've said all
along that I don't think kids should be graded down for
language mistakes in their math work. But I don't think
kids should just not do the work that they are weaker
at.

No one suggested they shouldn't have to do any
work in their weaker area. The question is whether
they should have to struggle with their weak area
in *every* *single* *thing* they do. People who are
constantly having their noses rubbed in their
deficiencies get disheartened and burned out.

It is a fact of life that we use language to communicate
in almost all areas of life. That makes it a special case.
Yes, it's unfortunate that there are those (including my
son) who struggle with reading, writing, and spelling.
But it doesn't change the matter any.

Bizby


Actually, my son did NOT struggle with verbal skills -- his verbal
skills were fine.

What *he* struggled with was finding a way to explain his math knowledge
-- he "just knew" the answers.

What helped him be able to explain how he got to his answers was one
supurb teacher who assigned him (and, more importantly, mentored him) to
teach kids who were several years behind him in skills. This had to
wait until he was older -- until then, he was just too damned, um,
arrogant -- he didn't understand that his abilities were beyond most
kids.

Now he's pretty good at explaining things, at tutoring other (college
age) kids. We've talked about the fact that one of the things that
makes his Dad valuable is that he's good at explaining complex things in
language that people who don't have PhD's can understand -- without
being an arrogant asshole. So he's learning to explain.

But I still feel very sad for his former 8 yo gentle little geek who was
given a lower grade in math (his strongest subject) because he just SAW
the answer, and couldn't explain how he got there. There WAS no
"process" -- he just knew what the answer was.

That should have been enough.

And the teacher who was convinced he was cheating because SHE couldn't
see the answers (therefore he couldn't possibly just see them, so he
MUST have been copying someone else's work) -- well, at the time I
worked hard to work with her and cooperate and all the things you are
supposed todo to work with the school, but if I could go back I'd like
to hang her by her toenails and beat her with an organic carrot. . . .

--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

In article ,
"Donna Metler" wrote:

"dragonlady" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"bizby40" wrote:

"Banty" wrote in message
...
In article , bizby40 says...


"Banty" wrote in message
...
In article , bizby40 says...

She may not be quite aware that that's what she did.

Aha! Now you're getting it. These "How" and "why"
questions are designed to make the child think about
how they solved something. And perhaps as they clue
in more to the strategies they are using, they will be
able to better apply those strategies in new situations.
Or perhaps when someone else in their class describes
the strategy *they* used, your child will realize that
the way they did it was better, and apply it next
time.

Do kids, after writing poetry, need to write how they came up with
the
rhymes?
Would you think that a useful addition to the task?

How about if they count up the syllables in each poem, calculate the
mean
and
standard deviation, and strive to decrease the standard deviation.
They
can
calculate several after having written several limericks, for the
different
lenghts of lines required.

That way they can get self-feedback on a measure of the quality of
their
poetry.

Would you support something like that?

You know, if they had them do something like that, I'd
consider it a math assignment, and since they need to learn
math as well as English, that would be fine by me.

No no, that's not what is being discussed.

What if they were dinged in their *language* grade if they could not
get
the
averages right?

I've already said that I don't really think it's appropriate to take
off for spelling in a math assignment, but I do consider being
able to explain or show your work to be a math skill, so having
it count towards a math grade makes sense to me.

If my child was bad at math, and if that was causing him to
get bad grades across all his subjects, I can see that I would
be frustrated. I might even feel that it wasn't fair. I'd also
feel that it was vitally important that he learn his math. I'd
ramp up our practice at hom, I might consider tutoring if
I felt there was a real need.

What you don't seem to be understanding is that those of us who were
frustrated by this requirement had kids who were NOT bad at math, but
getting bad math GRADES because they couldn't do the verbal part, or
"show their work" -- but they got the right answers and understood the
math part.

From the teacher POV, if a child can't explain how something works, it is
hard to tell whether the child really understands, or has developed a
shortcut which may not work in the future, or is copying the answers from
friend Jimmy on the bus. I used to have a real gift for what my father calls
"Donnaisms"-finding something which got to the correct answer quickly which
worked in a few cases, but not all, and usually these were a major effort to
unlearn. For every child who truly has an intuitive grasp and can do
everything mentally, there are five who have discovered that a calculator
can get them through their math homework in a few minutes.

But, eventually the rubber meets the road. At least on our state test,
students are not allowed to use a calculator on the computations section of
the math test. If a student can't do it by themself, they will not do well.
And, under current testing climate, it is the teacher and school who will be
held accountable for not making sure the student truly understood.

In addition, state tests are written so that the other choices are logical.
A student who makes a common and somewhat logical error will probably find
an answer to match that error. The problems chosen do take advantage of
this. My "donnaisms" would have hurt me much more in today's climate than
they did when I was in school (since teacher-made tests tend NOT to be
designed to trick students).

I understand it's frustrating for a child who really does understand and who
is weak on writing (as a person with fine motor skills difficulties, so that
writing HURTS, I empathize), but it is vitally important that a student not
only be able to get the correct answer but to understand the method and be
able to generalize it. And the teacher can't look inside the child's brain
to see that.


My son always tested in the 99th percentile on the standardized math
tests, where they only thing they had to do was get the right answer.
(Actually, one year, he was in the 98th percentile -- he was very sad
that he'd dropped . . .)

And I find it insulting to suggest that getting the right answer without
"showing your work" must lead to a teacher suspecting either cheating or
an imperfect shortcut.

--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

"Banty" wrote in message
...
One thing it took me awhile to learn was to regard the outline as
something that
"they" needed. A teacher-pleaser that I would draw up to turn in ahead of
time
as required, only for the sake of that. Then I could go right on ahead
and
write the actual paper however I wanted. I never got dinged for that (I'm
talking high school), sometimes the teacher or instructor would be
impressed
somehow.

I think turning the paper in as you work on it helps decrease the risk of
plagiarism. The teacher can see your work as you do it. FWIW, I rarely
used outlines, except when needed. Many times, I'd write the paper and then
outline the paper so I'd have an outline to turn in.

In article ,
"bizby40" wrote:

I've seen very few ideas. Mostly I've just seen how the schools and the
teachers are awful. And I haven't really advocated any ideas of my
own except the radical idea that perhaps educators know what they
are doing and might be supported instead assumed to be stupid,
intractible, uncaring or stubborn.

Most teachers are pretty good. A handful are stupid, intractible,
uncaring and stubborn.

I would say there have been two suggestions he

1 - stop giving so damned much homework. Maybe even eliminate it all
together in early elementary grades. Instead, work with the parents to
find appropriate ways to suppliment each child's education in ways that
play to their strengths, and give them an opportunity to work on their
weaknesses.

2 - stop grading kids in unrelated areas: the only place this has come
up is in math, but stop dinging kids who are good at math for what they
do with their verbal explanations.

Frankly, NOT all educators know what they are doing and are deserving of
our support.

Unfortunately, teachers around here are paid not enough to live on -- my
son has lost *3* very good math and science teachers who decided to move
away so they could actually earn a living at their chosen field.

--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

In article ,
toto wrote:

On Wed, 16 Nov 2005 08:21:13 -0500, "bizby40"
wrote:


"Sidheag McCormack" wrote in message
...
Chookie writes:

In article ,
toto wrote:

It may be a word problem, but not necessarily. Inevitably in DD's math
work, there is a section called "Writing in Math". One such question
was "Tell how to find 81-36 using mental math." I still haven't figured
out how I would have answered it as a third grader.

Well, I always do things like that by rounding off and then adding or
subtracting.

81 is 1 more than 80 and 36 is 6 more than 30. 80-30 is 50 Then you
subtract 5 because 6 -1 is 5. So 50 - 5 = 45 and that is your answer.

What if you can't do it in your head?! I can assure you that I would not
have been able to hold all those bits in my head at the same time at
that age or now.

Lol, then you fail the course, because you "should" be able to do 81-36 in
your head! However different people will find different ways easier, which
surely is the point. Personally I'd do it like this: "81-40 is 41,
obviously, but oops, I was only supposed to subtract 36, which is 4 less
than 40, so now I'd better correct by adding the 4 back, getting 45".

And my first step is to say, "Okay, so 1-6, or 11 - 6 is five." Then once
I have the last digit I figure out the magnitude of the rest. "and 81-36 is
less than 50, so it must be 45."

Bizby


So many correct ansswers.


Unfortunately, none of them is "81 - 36 is 45 because, well, because it
IS" -- like 3-2 is 1 becaus it just IS.

--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

In article , Banty
wrote:

His description of his problem is "the teacher is always
saying plus, then multiply, then plus..". Hopefully I can debug this and
straighten it out.

Is this the basic kind of algebra, with problems like:

Solve 2x - 4 = y + 12

For which variable?

Sorry, for x. It's been a long time since junior high school algebra so I'd
forgotten the wording!

Sounds like he may not have understood that you need to perform the same
operation on each side of the equation.

One does not always solve in that way. It may be a quadratic equation, for
example.

Hmm, I'm quite sure that in deriving the solution to the general quadratic
equation, we still performed operations on both sides of the equals sign!

But what I really meant was: your son may not have grasped that you need to
perform the same operation on each side of the equation, particularly if he is
on simpler stuff like my example, or even questions like 3x-12=0. I suspect
this because it sounds like he thinks the *sequence* of operations is
important, rather than that the teacher is trying to simplify the equation
with every step. KWIM?

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"In Melbourne there is plenty of vigour and eagerness, but there is
nothing worth being eager or vigorous about."
Francis Adams, The Australians, 1893.

Circe wrote:

Exactly. Moreover, there are SO many ways to visualize this problem in your
head. For example, if I were to do this problem in my head, I'd just
rearrange the numbers so that I was subtracting 35 from 80. I know that
works, but WHY it works would take me an age to explain. Why should I have
to bother when it's clear that I was arriving at the correct answer.

BTW, I doubt my third grader could do that problem using "mental math". He'd
have to write it out. He could get the right answer, though. Why should HE
get dinged because he CAN'T do it in his head? (He got a B+ in math, BTW.)
--
Be well, Barbara



DD (also 3rd grade) wasn't asked to do "mental math" just explain how
she would do it. But to me, that's just writing out the equation in
mathematical notation, which wasn't what was asked.

So, her grades in math are something like A in math concepts, A/B in
computation (she's not very careful), B/C in communication. She's been
switched to a different math group. I haven't yet talked to her (old?
new?) math teacher about the switch.

Jeanne

bizby40 wrote:

I'm getting frustrated because time and time again in this thread,
I keep seeing, "But this isn't the perfect way to teach my child."
And I just don't see how public education can possibly make
sure that every assignment is perfect for every child.

Bizby



Well, with NCLB, public education will have to find a way to educate
every child. I don't think anyone is asking for perfection. Just
flexibility, maybe.

I've decided to have my child evaluated for learning disabilities.
She's a very bright, articulate and inquisitive child but she has a
vastly different way of learning than the "average" child which
apparently may label her "special needs". I think teachers actually
like her because she is such a bright light but they are also frustrated
because she isn't progressing as they expect. They are also frustrated
because they are hamstrung by the school system: one curriculum, one
way. They can flex in very minor ways: fewer spelling words (7 instead
of 10) but these accommodations don't address any underlying issues and
only make my child fall behind her peers.