Homework for a 5 year old - how much involvement needed.

On Thu, 17 Nov 2005 07:17:49 -0500, Jeanne
wrote:

DD (also 3rd grade) wasn't asked to do "mental math" just explain how
she would do it. But to me, that's just writing out the equation in
mathematical notation, which wasn't what was asked.

Did they want her to explain that she borrowed 10 ones from the
number in the tens place, added that to the number in the ones
place and then did the subtraction (or what?)


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

On 17 Nov 2005 08:33:30 -0800, Banty wrote:

And, frankly, I think the *school* introduces some shortcuts that aren't useful.
I'll give two examples.

The first I described already. I dont' know yet (will soon) how trig is taught
nowdays, but I struggeld with the opposites and adjacents and hypotenuses, and
only understood trig some years later when I introduced myself to the unit
circle. Trig isn't just about triangles! Opposites and hypotenuses may get
most students to get their math state testing problems right, but trig has
applications to waves and spatial resprpentations that fall right out of the
basic mathematics, which is the unit circle. It's the *school* that was only
showing me some way to look at it that only had to do with triangles - the
narrowly-applicable shortcut. And confusing me with the verbal descriptions to
boot. I only understand what they were trying to teach me in *retrospect*.

I agree that the unit circle is the way to go to teach the trig
functions. I think that some teachers truly don't understand
it and were taught with triangles so they use that. Textbooks
tend to use this and some teachers can't teach without
reference to the textbook.

The second example is what I saw my son doing last night with percents. He's
been taught a ratio method of doing percents. OK, fine as far as it goes (but
it had him bamboozled as to why, if he knows that y is 80% of x, x is NOT y plus
20% of y!). For this and a HOST of other applications I handle this easily with
a little analytical algebra equation. But nooo, my son resisted that. He had
been taught with this little *shortcut* setup that only applied to percent
questions! He was taught that the answer is found in a numerator if he's being
asked and "of" question vs. - gosh I forget I don't even look at it quite that
way. Yes, setting it up as a simple algebraic question boils down in this
subset of cases to a simple ratio. But why teach him the ratio trick just for
percents? Why? - cause it will get the quicker answers on the 8th grade
regents percents questions! :-/

This one is just plain *wrong.* Is/of is a very bad shortcut.
So are some of the acronyms that are used to teach order of
operations. It is also awful to teach adding and subtracting
fractions without any understanding of equivalent fractions.
Kids are often taught to multiply the denominators and then
then multiply the numerator by the missing factor without
realizing that they are actually finding equivalent fractions and
that this is similar to adding and subtracting numbers with
unlike units. (In fact, I think many teachers never teach
conversion of units and it needs to be taught as part of
the package of generalization of borrowing and carrying)


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

In article , toto says...

On 17 Nov 2005 08:33:30 -0800, Banty wrote:

And, frankly, I think the *school* introduces some shortcuts that aren't useful.
I'll give two examples.

The first I described already. I dont' know yet (will soon) how trig is taught
nowdays, but I struggeld with the opposites and adjacents and hypotenuses, and
only understood trig some years later when I introduced myself to the unit
circle. Trig isn't just about triangles! Opposites and hypotenuses may get
most students to get their math state testing problems right, but trig has
applications to waves and spatial resprpentations that fall right out of the
basic mathematics, which is the unit circle. It's the *school* that was only
showing me some way to look at it that only had to do with triangles - the
narrowly-applicable shortcut. And confusing me with the verbal descriptions to
boot. I only understand what they were trying to teach me in *retrospect*.

I agree that the unit circle is the way to go to teach the trig
functions. I think that some teachers truly don't understand
it and were taught with triangles so they use that. Textbooks
tend to use this and some teachers can't teach without
reference to the textbook.

I'm getting worried...


The second example is what I saw my son doing last night with percents. He's
been taught a ratio method of doing percents. OK, fine as far as it goes (but
it had him bamboozled as to why, if he knows that y is 80% of x, x is NOT y plus
20% of y!). For this and a HOST of other applications I handle this easily with
a little analytical algebra equation. But nooo, my son resisted that. He had
been taught with this little *shortcut* setup that only applied to percent
questions! He was taught that the answer is found in a numerator if he's being
asked and "of" question vs. - gosh I forget I don't even look at it quite that
way. Yes, setting it up as a simple algebraic question boils down in this
subset of cases to a simple ratio. But why teach him the ratio trick just for
percents? Why? - cause it will get the quicker answers on the 8th grade
regents percents questions! :-/

This one is just plain *wrong.* Is/of is a very bad shortcut.

So you recognize this method from my somewhat fractured description..

So are some of the acronyms that are used to teach order of
operations. It is also awful to teach adding and subtracting
fractions without any understanding of equivalent fractions.
Kids are often taught to multiply the denominators and then
then multiply the numerator by the missing factor without
realizing that they are actually finding equivalent fractions and
that this is similar to adding and subtracting numbers with
unlike units. (In fact, I think many teachers never teach
conversion of units and it needs to be taught as part of
the package of generalization of borrowing and carrying)

So what do I do, Dorothy? Go to the math teacher and get her she's wrong?? :-/
Ask her to tell my son it's OK to try my methods? Or let him go ahead with
their methods since they have their tests and stuff built around it?

My son is *not* a kid that ever had the flexiblity to do it school way for
school, and learn a more basic way from me. He wants to do it the school way
and get it done and out of the way. Teachers are authority figures to the kids,
you know.

Banty

On Wed, 16 Nov 2005 16:00:43 -0500, "bizby40"
wrote:


"Barbara Bomberger" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 16 Nov 2005 09:11:31 -0500, "bizby40"
wrote:




It looks to me like a drafting technique rather than a summary or
abstract
of
the paper. I'd therefore agree that it has no place in the marking
pile.

The outline for a paper is *not* generally turned in. It's only turned
in
and graded in the English classes that are specifically teaching that
method of writing a paper.


I had to turn in outlines and was graded on it. That's how I learned to
spin up
outlines *after* having written the paper. (Else why would I do that?)

Me too, but only in my English composition classes. I never had to
turn one in on a science or humanities or computer paper.

My son is required to write an outline *first*, in class, then a first
draft, in
class. Both are looked over by the teacher.

And you don't think that's appropriate at his age? I wish, wish, wish
my nephew had written an outline before the paper he just turned in.
The final version that he sent me has no logical structure at all.

Bizby

Depends on individual style. My son and I both tend to simply write.
I dont find an outline necessary. I do use a computer, print out the
first as my rough draft and make notes. Same for child. it works fine.

Yes, but at 13, they are trying to teach them how to write a paper.
They don't know which kids are going to be able to just toss out
a perfect paper. So, when you are trying to teach the kids how
to write an organized and well-written paper, do you really think
it's appropriate just to give them the assignment and collect the
finished product several weeks (or even months) later with no
intermediate steps or feedback? And what about the kids that
can't just toss it out with not help? And what about the kids
that will just put off doing anything until the night before it's due?
And what about the kids whose parents are not intimately
involved with their children's homework and won't make sure that
they do it properly? And how is the teacher supposed to know
which child is which way?

I'm getting frustrated because time and time again in this thread,
I keep seeing, "But this isn't the perfect way to teach my child."
And I just don't see how public education can possibly make
sure that every assignment is perfect for every child.

Bizby

I think that there are many and various ways to organize a paper and
that some lessons should be spent on the ways to do this. It should
certainly be part of the curriculum.

Once the teacher has given the various choices and options, then yes,
I think the teacher should simply give the assignment. Have regular
meetings in the paper process, which teachers almost always do. And,
if that kid (like mine, been there, done that, have more than one t
short), wiits till the night before and sits up all night doing the
paper, then it will be a learning experience.

My kids have often put of things until the night before they were do.
They pay the price...but thats a separate topic. I am not a homework
micro manager, but a facilitator. I certainly was not intimately
involved in my childs homework at age thirteen, any more than I am at
sixteen.

On Wed, 16 Nov 2005 15:48:25 -0500, "Stephanie"
wrote:


"Barbara Bomberger" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 16 Nov 2005 08:32:33 -0500, "bizby40"
wrote:


"Chookie" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"bizby40" wrote:

I do quite a lot of writing, and knowing HOW to write from an
outline
is
handy -- occassionally, I even do it.

What is an outline exactly? Is it a precis of the paper, or do you
mean
the rough idea of the points you want to make?

Perhaps some of both. It is a structure for the paper, intended to be
written before the actual paper to help you organize your thoughts.
The
classic form for an outline is this:
snipped

It looks to me like a drafting technique rather than a summary or
abstract
of
the paper. I'd therefore agree that it has no place in the marking
pile.

The outline for a paper is *not* generally turned in. It's only turned in
and graded in the English classes that are specifically teaching that
method of writing a paper.

Bizby

I've never known a teacher who did NOT want the outline, and the rough
draft, turned in for a grade


I think in outlines. I used to write the paper, then make an outline and
pull stuff out and move it around for drafts.

Barb




And lots of people do. Its just that because that works in some cases,
it is not the best way for all of us to research a term paper, or do a
speech.

On Wed, 16 Nov 2005 15:50:49 -0500, "bizby40"
wrote:


"Barbara Bomberger" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 16 Nov 2005 08:32:33 -0500, "bizby40"
wrote:


"Chookie" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"bizby40" wrote:

I do quite a lot of writing, and knowing HOW to write from an
outline
is
handy -- occassionally, I even do it.

What is an outline exactly? Is it a precis of the paper, or do you
mean
the rough idea of the points you want to make?

Perhaps some of both. It is a structure for the paper, intended to be
written before the actual paper to help you organize your thoughts.
The
classic form for an outline is this:
snipped

It looks to me like a drafting technique rather than a summary or
abstract
of
the paper. I'd therefore agree that it has no place in the marking
pile.

The outline for a paper is *not* generally turned in. It's only turned in
and graded in the English classes that are specifically teaching that
method of writing a paper.

Bizby

I've never known a teacher who did NOT want the outline, and the rough
draft, turned in for a grade

Really? All the way through college, and in every subject? Amazing.

Bizby

And all through the classes of children now aging sixteen through
twenty six and their college educations. yep, I meant what I said.

toto wrote in
:

On Thu, 17 Nov 2005 07:32:59 -0500, Jeanne
wrote:

Well, with NCLB, public education will have to find a way
to educate every child. I don't think anyone is asking for
perfection. Just flexibility, maybe.

The NCLB is NOT going to be able to do this despite it's
high flown promises. It is too test oriented. Getting
test scores is not the same as getting an education and
aside from that the accountability rules don't allow for
flexibility.

plus education funding was cut severely in the federal budget
this year...
lee

Barbara Bomberger wrote:

I've never known a teacher who did NOT want the outline, and the rough
draft, turned in for a grade

Really?**All*the*way*through*college,*and*in*eve ry*subject?**Amazing.

Bizby

And all through the classes of children now aging sixteen through
twenty six and their college educations.**yep,*I*meant*what*I*said.

FWIW, I don't remember ever having to give in an outline ever, in all
my years of education in England.

--
Penny Gaines
UK mum to three

On 17 Nov 2005 13:30:57 -0800, Banty wrote:

The second example is what I saw my son doing last night with percents. He's
been taught a ratio method of doing percents. OK, fine as far as it goes (but
it had him bamboozled as to why, if he knows that y is 80% of x, x is NOT y plus
20% of y!). For this and a HOST of other applications I handle this easily with
a little analytical algebra equation. But nooo, my son resisted that. He had
been taught with this little *shortcut* setup that only applied to percent
questions! He was taught that the answer is found in a numerator if he's being
asked and "of" question vs. - gosh I forget I don't even look at it quite that
way. Yes, setting it up as a simple algebraic question boils down in this
subset of cases to a simple ratio. But why teach him the ratio trick just for
percents? Why? - cause it will get the quicker answers on the 8th grade
regents percents questions! :-/

This one is just plain *wrong.* Is/of is a very bad shortcut.

So you recognize this method from my somewhat fractured description..

You need to explain that we are talking part to whole rather than
is/of. Using proportions to solve percent problems is fine (in fact
it is a good way to gerneralize to many kinds of proportions), but
using mnemonics that only apply to textbook problems means
that kids don't have the understanding of what they are doing.

The three different types of percent word problems are unknown
rate, unknown whole and unknown part. I would ask him to look
at the question and determine which is the unknown. A chart or
table can be made that shows each and has a ? or x in the
collumn for the unknown. The ration is percent/100 = part/whole
when we are speaking of percents. A good way to visualize
percents is to shade in squares on a 100 grid. You can then
use a grid of a larger or smaller number to visualize the answer
you need depending on what you are trying to find.

There are many ways to solve percent problems, but the key is
to understand what percent means.


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

On 17 Nov 2005 13:30:57 -0800, Banty wrote:

So what do I do, Dorothy? Go to the math teacher and
get her she's wrong?? :-/
Ask her to tell my son it's OK to try my methods? Or let
him go ahead with their methods since they have their
tests and stuff built around it?

The *method* is not wrong, only the fact that she is not
teaching him to understand the process of using ratios,
but only teaching him an algorithm with a poor way of
remembering where the parts of the ratio go in the equation.
Many sites online use this too. It's common, but I dislike
it because it works only if the problem is written in the
kind of sentence that textbooks use. In the real world
you are not likely to find that kind of wording.

I would work on his understanding of percents using a
100 grid or converting % to fractions in lowest terms
and creating equivalent fractions that are larger or
smaller in denominator than the percent.

I would also ask the teacher if other methods of doing these
problems will also be covered. Most math texts cover
converting to a decimal and multiplying Some texts use
100 grids.

Here is a website that explains the proportion method in
a way that may be less confusing than what she told him.
http://amby.com/educate/math/4-2_prop.html
It still uses the is and of to distinguish part from whole,
but it may help him understand what she was saying.


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits