problem with my mom & DS (long)

DS used to always cry when my mom came to visit. He didn't do it with
anyone else but her. We'd tell her he liked men better. He did, but she
was the only one he reacted so strongly to. Since she couldn't get positive
attention from him, she responded by trying to get negative attention via
teasing, like showing him something he can't have and then taking it away.
He would cry and throw a fit and she would then say, "Look what a mean child
he is." Of course, that didn't help matters.

That was before DS could walk or talk. Fast forward to present. DS is 2yo.
I'm on bedrest for preterm labor. Actually, the doc gave the go ahead for
me to increase my activity a little bit last week. When I first went on
bedrest, my mom came over everyday. DS was very happy to see her. It was
someone for him to play with, seeing that I wouldn't get off the couch.
Occasionally, he'd be in a bad mood and hit. It's a phase he's going
through. My mom is not the only one he hits, he also hit me and DH and
others. We've been working on it and getting results as his vocabulary is
building and he is able to tell us more of what he wants. Anyway, everyday
from the first day, my mom would tell me he was a mean child. I'm afraid
she is going to see a self-fulfilling prophecy, but only for her. Everyone
else I know says DS is the most easy-going kid they know. Not bragging, but
he is.

Anyway, my mom exploded on me the day before New Year's Eve. She yelled at
me for half the day calling me all sorts of names and bringing up things
that I did to her more than two years ago that I had no clue was a problem.
Basically, when she feels I slight her, she doesn't say anything, she
bottles it up inside until a moment like this. DS has never seen anyone
yelling at me like this before in his entire life. It was very upsetting to
him.

Ever since that day, DS is not keen on seeing my mom. When she comes over,
he's very grumpy and doesn't want to talk to her or hear her talk to him.
He comes to talk to me and focuses his attention completely on me, which he
didn't do when she first started coming over. I think he's upset she yelled
at me and he's trying to protect me. This morning, she told me DS's always
hated her, even a dog knows when someone loves it, how come DS doesn't?
Tonight, he really hurt her feelings, because she was bathing him and he
wouldn't let her wash his hair, but when I came in, it was so easy for me.
She just walked out and went straight to bed, didn't even say goodnight.

Honestly, my mom is emotionally more like a child than an adult. Most days,
I feel like I have two children. She's constantly tattling on DS. If I
don't respond the way she likes, she gets mean or begins parenting with her
own method, which is how I was parented. She tells DS to stop crying so she
can love him, eat so she can love him, etc. Yesterday, she locked him out
of the house because he wanted to go out when she didn't want him to, but
she told him goodbye and he thought he could go. When I went to let him in,
she told me to keep it locked to scare him. When he came inside, she told
him the dogs were going to bite him out there in the dark. She really does
love him but she just doesn't know how to interact with him. Needless to
say, I do not often leave DS alone with my mom.

Anyway, what to do about my mom and DS? She bases her sense of self-worth
on the actions of a 2yo. It shouldn't be his responsibility to make her
feel needed and loved. I know she wants to have a good relationship with
him, but the things she does don't help the situation. Because of the
tension, which I don't think is good for any of us, I've been sending DS to
daycare and just letting my mom come when she feels up to it, rather than
asking her to come everyday. Some of you guys are real good people persons,
so I thought I'd fish for some ideas. Any constructive opinions?

In article IkNMb.40371$5V2.61694@attbi_s53, "toypup"
wrote:

Ever since that day, DS is not keen on seeing my mom.

Well, I can only see your son's point of view. This strange woman keeps
coming to his house. She behaves erratically and sometimes very
frighteningly, and has made it clear by her behaviour that she doesn't like
him. Why should he want to see her? Why wouldn't he want to stay near you
for protection?

I think you are wise to send him to day care. While you are unable to
supervise her, I don't think you should let her supervise your DS at all. She
is just too weird.

What does she say when you pull her up for stuff like telling him to eat so
she can love him? Or locking him out of the house?

And lastly, if you are on bedrest, why are you inviting such a difficult
person around *every* *day*?

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"Jeez; if only those Ancient Greek storytellers had known about the astonishing
creature that is the *Usenet hydra*: you cut off one head, and *a stupider one*
grows back..." -- MJ, cam.misc

In article , Chookie
says...

In article IkNMb.40371$5V2.61694@attbi_s53, "toypup"
wrote:

Ever since that day, DS is not keen on seeing my mom.

Well, I can only see your son's point of view. This strange woman keeps
coming to his house. She behaves erratically and sometimes very
frighteningly, and has made it clear by her behaviour that she doesn't like
him. Why should he want to see her? Why wouldn't he want to stay near you
for protection?

I think you are wise to send him to day care. While you are unable to
supervise her, I don't think you should let her supervise your DS at all. She
is just too weird.

What does she say when you pull her up for stuff like telling him to eat so
she can love him? Or locking him out of the house?

And lastly, if you are on bedrest, why are you inviting such a difficult
person around *every* *day*?

I gotta say I have to agree. I honestly don't know how to advise you as to how
to be less entangled with your mother, especially now at a stressful time. But
the fundamental problem is your mother's frequent presence, considering her
immature emotional makeup and her dislike for your chld. But somehow you'll
have to get there.

Is there no one else that can help you out when you're on bedrest?

Baney

toypup wrote:

DS used to always cry when my mom came to visit. He didn't do it with
anyone else but her. We'd tell her he liked men better. He did, but she
was the only one he reacted so strongly to. Since she couldn't get positive
attention from him, she responded by trying to get negative attention via
teasing, like showing him something he can't have and then taking it away.
He would cry and throw a fit and she would then say, "Look what a mean child
he is." Of course, that didn't help matters.

[snip]

Anyway, what to do about my mom and DS? She bases her sense of self-worth
on the actions of a 2yo. It shouldn't be his responsibility to make her
feel needed and loved. I know she wants to have a good relationship with
him, but the things she does don't help the situation. Because of the
tension, which I don't think is good for any of us, I've been sending DS to
daycare and just letting my mom come when she feels up to it, rather than
asking her to come everyday. Some of you guys are real good people persons,
so I thought I'd fish for some ideas. Any constructive opinions?



Toypup,

While my mom hasn't gone to quite the extremes as yours, she's also a
pretty needy and sometimes mean mom/grandmom. My only advice is: short
supervised visits.

We (my siblings and I) won't leave the young grandkids with our parents
and we've basically had to "trained" our mother how to interact with our
children in a positive manner. (This has been going on for 18 years -
meaning she hasn't really taken in how her words and actions are
hurtful)

Daycare with reliable people is probably the best option for you and
your son.

Good luck,
Jeanne

Bruce and Jeanne wrote:
toypup wrote:


DS used to always cry when my mom came to visit. He didn't do it with
anyone else but her. We'd tell her he liked men better. He did, but she
was the only one he reacted so strongly to. Since she couldn't get positive
attention from him, she responded by trying to get negative attention via
teasing, like showing him something he can't have and then taking it away.
He would cry and throw a fit and she would then say, "Look what a mean child
he is." Of course, that didn't help matters.


[snip]


Anyway, what to do about my mom and DS? She bases her sense of self-worth
on the actions of a 2yo. It shouldn't be his responsibility to make her
feel needed and loved. I know she wants to have a good relationship with
him, but the things she does don't help the situation. Because of the
tension, which I don't think is good for any of us, I've been sending DS to
daycare and just letting my mom come when she feels up to it, rather than
asking her to come everyday. Some of you guys are real good people persons,
so I thought I'd fish for some ideas. Any constructive opinions?




Toypup,

While my mom hasn't gone to quite the extremes as yours, she's also a
pretty needy and sometimes mean mom/grandmom. My only advice is: short
supervised visits.

We (my siblings and I) won't leave the young grandkids with our parents
and we've basically had to "trained" our mother how to interact with our
children in a positive manner. (This has been going on for 18 years -
meaning she hasn't really taken in how her words and actions are
hurtful)

Daycare with reliable people is probably the best option for you and
your son.

Good luck,
Jeanne


I have pretty much had the same experience with my Mom. Although I will
not let my Mom see my children at all. She did such a "good" job raising
us that I don't want her around my kids for fear that she will
manipulate them as well. Daycare, and supervised visits sound pretty good.
Shelly

On Tue, 13 Jan 2004 07:43:36 GMT, "toypup"
wrote:

DS used to always cry when my mom came to visit.
He didn't do it with anyone else but her.

Well, given what you say below, it seems your ds has
a very natural reaction to her actions.

We'd tell her he liked men better. He did, but she was
the only one he reacted so strongly to.

Frankly you should not have tried to spare her feelings.
You should have pointed out that her actions were the
cause of his reactions and that she as an adult needed
to change if she wanted him to change.

Since she couldn't get positive attention from him, she
responded by trying to get negative attention via teasing,
like showing him something he can't have and then taking
it away.

This is cruel to an infant, what does she expect him to do
when she shows him something he by nature wants to
explore and then tries to keep him from having it. You don't
show kids things you don't want them to have.

He would cry and throw a fit and she would then say, "Look
what a mean child he is." Of course, that didn't help matters.

What is her definition of mean in a child? She was the one
who was being *mean* here, not him. Has anyone talked
to her about defining what she thinks it mean or bad in a child
rationally?

That was before DS could walk or talk. Fast forward to present.
DS is 2yo. I'm on bedrest for preterm labor. Actually, the doc
gave the go ahead for me to increase my activity a little bit last
week.

Good.

When I first went on bedrest, my mom came over everyday.
DS was very happy to see her. It was someone for him to play
with, seeing that I wouldn't get off the couch.

So the relationship was beginning to be better at this point.

Occasionally, he'd be in a bad mood and hit. It's a phase
he's going through. My mom is not the only one he hits, he
also hit me and DH and others. We've been working on it
and getting results as his vocabulary is building and he is
able to tell us more of what he wants.

This is good. It's a phase true, but not every child hits and
your mom may not understand the phase. Has anyone tried
to educate her about child development and what is normal
at the age of 2?

Also, you probably need to educate her about how to react
so that her reaction is consistent with yours.

Anyway, everyday from the first day, my mom would tell me
he was a mean child.

Well, he isn't mean, but it seems that she doesn't understand
the word mean.

I'm afraid she is going to see a self-fulfilling prophecy, but
only for her. Everyone else I know says DS is the most easy-
going kid they know. Not bragging, but he is.

His reaction to her will certainly be colored by her actions.
Does she slap him when he hits? If so, she is teaching him
that hitting is ok, counter to what you want him to learn.

Anyway, my mom exploded on me the day before New Year's
Eve. She yelled at me for half the day calling me all sorts of
names and bringing up things that I did to her more than two
years ago that I had no clue was a problem.

You need to decide it you really want a relationship with your
mom. If you do, then both of you need to change, btw. It
won't happen all on her end. You have to approach it as a
team. it may be that you will need family counselling to do
this, but if both of you want a change see below for a
way to attempt it.

Basically, when she feels I slight her, she doesn't say
anything, she bottles it up inside until a moment like this.
DS has never seen anyone yelling at me like this before
in his entire life. It was very upsetting to him.

Of course it is. And someone needs to explain this to your
mom. If she grew up bottling and exploding though, changing
won't be easy. Can you sit down with her when you are both
calm and ask her to tell you when something bothers her right
away, so you can deal with whatever it is and change the
actions? Are there things you do that trigger her that you know
how to avoid? If you think about the way you and she have always
interacted, I bet you can come up with a list of things that bothers
her. And then you can approach her calmly about why they
bother her and what kinds of compromises you can both make.
Perhaps, better, sit down and brainstorm together ways to
change both of your behaviors. Approach only one problem at
a time though. If you try to do too much at once, it probably will
be too difficult.

Here's one thought. What is the biggest problem you have with
your mom?

Take that one and sit down with her and brainstorm first - what are
the behaviors on your part that cause the problem, what are the
behaviors on her part that cause the problem. Btw, let her go first
with an analysis because you want to really listen to her side of
this.

Acknowledge your part in creating the problem.

Next - brainstorm solutions. Write down every single solution
without evaluating them. Again let her go first and then you
add - you can take turns with making the list or she can go first
for all the ones she can think of and then you can add yours.

Then go through the list and cross out all the solutions that
won't work for you. Have her cross out those that won't work
for her.

Then choose from the remaining solutions, one that is acceptable
and that both of you think can work for you. Try it for a week or a
month or any period of time that you think can give you an idea
of whether it does work. and then sit down again and evaluate
if it is working.

If it is, good, keep going, but remember to revisit it to see if it is
working every so often. If it is not working, choose a different
solution from the list and try that.

After the first problem seems to be going well, then tackle the
next largest problem and keep going until you have really
changed your relationship for the better.

Ever since that day, DS is not keen on seeing my mom.
When she comes over, he's very grumpy and doesn't
want to talk to her or hear her talk to him.

Would you want to talk to someone whose behavior was
so erratic and who yelled at the person who you love and
who takes care of you most of the time?

He comes to talk to me and focuses his attention completely
on me, which he didn't do when she first started coming over.
I think he's upset she yelled at me and he's trying to protect me.

Could be. Or he could be scared of her behavior in general.

This morning, she told me DS's always hated her, even a
dog knows when someone loves it, how come DS doesn't?

You know she is taking this as an indication of hatred. At this
point I doubt if he *hates* her, but certainly he may grow to
do so if she doesn't act as an adult. It sounds as if she is
depending on him to care for *her* when she should be caring
for *him.*

Tonight, he really hurt her feelings, because she was bathing
him and he wouldn't let her wash his hair, but when I came in,
it was so easy for me. She just walked out and went straight
to bed, didn't even say goodnight.

She is living with you? Or she went home to her own house and
bed?

At any rate, she needs some education about why children may
prefer mom to do things instead of grandma.

My granddaughter goes through phases. She is 17 months now.
She used to be *my baby,* would go to me in preference to
grandpa. Now she is grandpa's baby and runs to him when
she comes over. She also used to be easy for him to get to
sleep, now I have the right technique for her and he doesn't.
None of that means she loves either of us more than she loves
the other and she also still wants only mommy when mom
comes to get her though she is perfectly happy to play with
us when she is here without mom being around.

Honestly, my mom is emotionally more like a child than an
adult. Most days, I feel like I have two children.

It certainly seems so from what you say below.

She's constantly tattling on DS. If I don't respond the way she
likes, she gets mean or begins parenting with her own method,
which is how I was parented.

It is natural for her to revert to her own ways, but you need to
nip that in the bud. Note that we discourage preschoolers from
tattling. I usually ask the child who tattles what she did to take
care of the problem and encourage the child to talk about the
problem to the other child. Your mom may feel though that she
can't handle the problem because she knows you are critical
of her parenting practices and don't want her to use them. This
makes things hard. If she tells you, she is tattling, but if she
doesn't she is parenting him in a way you don't approve of.
She is in a double bind. Is there any chance that she would
take a child development or parenting class (if she is willing you
could offer to pay for it)? Or would she go with you to some
lectures on parenting that you could then talk over with her?

She tells DS to stop crying so she can love him, eat so she
can love him, etc.

This is a strange thing to tell a child. Of course she was probably
told the same thing by her parents and then did that with you.

Yesterday, she locked him out of the house because he
wanted to go out when she didn't want him to, but she told
him goodbye and he thought he could go.

Perhaps she doesn't understand the language development
of 2 year olds. Again an issue that you need to talk to her
about. When she said goodbye, he took it as permission, but
she didn't mean to give permission, so she needs to think about
her language when she talks to him.

When I went to let him in, she told me to keep it locked to
scare him. When he came inside, she told him the dogs
were going to bite him out there in the dark.

This is dangerous (the locking a 2 year old out of the house)
And the other stuff is emotionally abusive.

She really does love him but she just doesn't know how
to interact with him.

I am not sure that your mother's definition of love is very
good. She may *love* him, but she is not showing it.

Needless to say, I do not often leave DS alone with my mom.

I would never leave him alone with her, myself, but that has to
be your decision.

Anyway, what to do about my mom and DS?

I think you need to work on *your* relationship to your mom
or you will get nowhere with working on his relationship to her.

She bases her sense of self-worth on the actions of a 2yo.
It shouldn't be his responsibility to make her feel needed and
loved.

I agree.

I know she wants to have a good relationship with him, but
the things she does don't help the situation.

Again agreed.

Because of the tension, which I don't think is good for any
of us, I've been sending DS to daycare and just letting my
mom come when she feels up to it, rather than asking her
to come everyday.

I would continue with that. It seems to me that at 2, the daycare
is a better idea than your mom caring for him.

Some of you guys are real good people persons,
so I thought I'd fish for some ideas.
Any constructive opinions?

See above. But also realize that if you are on bedrest, you need
to do what works for *you* because it's important to your health
and your pregnancy. That may mean not seeing your mom much
at all if it causes such tension when she does come over. I sure
wouldn't have her there everyday.



--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

"Chookie" wrote in message
...
What does she say when you pull her up for stuff like telling him to eat
so
she can love him?

I tell her to stop. She did that to all her kids, so she doesn't see
anything wrong with it. Sometimes, I think she did is so often, it was an
automatic, subconscious thing, like normal people would say, "Umm," only,
she only did it to her kids . . . and now DS. My youngest brother got a
stronger version of it. She would tell him to eat or he won't love him,
etc.

Or locking him out of the house?

I let DS in and asked her why she did that.

And lastly, if you are on bedrest, why are you inviting such a difficult
person around *every* *day*?

That's why we've stopped asking her to come.

She was okay at first. I like her to feel loved and needed. The problem is
that she gets upset no matter what I do. If I don't ask her, she gets upset
because she wants us to be close and wants me to rely on her "in good times
and in bad." If I do ask her, she gets upset about having to care for me.

(Background: she has always been deathly afraid of having to care for
anyone. I asked at different times in my childhood during our discussions
why it would bother her if I got hurt. The answer was always the same: it
would bother her because she would have to care for me. I asked her why it
was a problem if I did something risky and died, since I was the one dying.
She said she didn't care if I died, but she was worried I wouldn't die and
be paralyzed or something, then she would have to care for me. When her
longtime boyfriend got sick and she thought it would disable him, she
immediately thought of wanting to leave him, but didn't because it would
make her look cruel to the rest of the world. When she first met him, she
made sure he understood that she would not take care of any grandchildren he
had under any circumstances.)

Anyway, we asked her to come stay overnight this past weekend because DH is
out of town and he was afraid no one would be around if I went into labor.
She refused, because she couldn't sleep in a strange bed (this was just
before her yelling fit), so we scrambled and got daycare to care for DS on
Sunday and they agreed to watch him overnight, in case of emergency.

I didn't expect for her to come over. She pretty much invited herself,
because we didn't ask her.

"Banty" wrote in message
...
I gotta say I have to agree. I honestly don't know how to advise you as
to how
to be less entangled with your mother, especially now at a stressful time.
But
the fundamental problem is your mother's frequent presence, considering
her
immature emotional makeup and her dislike for your chld. But somehow
you'll
have to get there.

My mom doesn't really dislike DS. I do believe she loves him. She is just
immature and doesn't know how to deal with him.


Is there no one else that can help you out when you're on bedrest?

Most people I know work. DH works 7am to 8pm or later. Bless his heart.
This whole thing is so stressful on him. He not only does his work but mine
as well.

We have maid come clean up the house occasionally.

Daycare has been wonderful. They care for DS at all sorts of odd times and
days and provide transportation when necessary, which is most days.

I don't feel comfortable asking anyone but family to come help. Bedrest is
difficult, since I don't appear to have anything physically wrong with me
and I can get up whenever I need to, it's just that I shouldn't. When I
look at myself, I feel like I'm putting on an act of helplessness, though
I'm really not and it really is doctor's orders. Now that I'm allowed more
activity, I feel like if can do this, then why not that? If I can do that,
then why not the other? I end up doing more activity than is ever advised
when someone else is around, just because it feels like the things I choose
to do feel so arbitrary. With DS in daycare, I find that I get just the
right amount of rest at home alone. I can lay around and watch tv if I need
to. I think I'll be okay with my mom gone.

"toypup" wrote in message news:IkNMb.40371$5V2.61694@attbi_s53...
Honestly, my mom is emotionally more like a child than an adult. Most days,
I feel like I have two children. She's constantly tattling on DS. If I
don't respond the way she likes, she gets mean or begins parenting with her
own method, which is how I was parented. She tells DS to stop crying so she
can love him, eat so she can love him, etc. Yesterday, she locked him out
of the house because he wanted to go out when she didn't want him to, but
she told him goodbye and he thought he could go. When I went to let him in,
she told me to keep it locked to scare him. When he came inside, she told
him the dogs were going to bite him out there in the dark. She really does
love him but she just doesn't know how to interact with him. Needless to
say, I do not often leave DS alone with my mom.

Anyway, what to do about my mom and DS? She bases her sense of self-worth
on the actions of a 2yo. It shouldn't be his responsibility to make her
feel needed and loved. I know she wants to have a good relationship with
him, but the things she does don't help the situation. Because of the
tension, which I don't think is good for any of us, I've been sending DS to
daycare and just letting my mom come when she feels up to it, rather than
asking her to come everyday. Some of you guys are real good people persons,
so I thought I'd fish for some ideas. Any constructive opinions?

I agree with the other posters: your mother is not right. She is
immature and abusive, and, like you said, parents your son the way
she parented you: badly. He is never going to trust someone
who abuses him or tries to scare him and there is no reason why
he should. I'm sorry, but I don't think she is going to change
because it sounds as though she has a borderline personality
disorder. I think you have already settled on a very safe course
of action by minimizing your son's (and your own) contact with her.
Just do what you have to do and don't get into explanations with
her; it's obvious that you won't win and she is too needy herself.
I'm so sorry that you are having to go through this when you should
be getting support, so I can just wish you the best.

I hate to say this, but you did ask for opinions: don't be surprised
if she takes a great like or dislike to the second child and tries
to compare the children. You may find yourself needing to limit her
contact even further. As you said, she doesn't know how to have
a healthy relationship. You have already figured out a great deal,
especially in noticing that she needs attention and will take negative
attention if she can't figure out how to get positive attention,
so you are to be admired. This is so difficult with a parent, who
should be your main source of support. Again, I hope things go better
for you.

Lynne

Ever since that day, DS is not keen on seeing my mom. When she comes
over,
he's very grumpy and doesn't want to talk to her or hear her talk to him.
He comes to talk to me and focuses his attention completely on me, which
he
didn't do when she first started coming over. I think he's upset she
yelled
at me and he's trying to protect me. This morning, she told me DS's
always
hated her, even a dog knows when someone loves it, how come DS doesn't?
Tonight, he really hurt her feelings, because she was bathing him and he
wouldn't let her wash his hair, but when I came in, it was so easy for me.
She just walked out and went straight to bed, didn't even say goodnight.
Just to point out that dd#1 will sometimes want only me or dh to do
something like washing hair/brushing teeth. It's nothing to do with love,
just her desire to control what's round her! If possible we usually let her
choose as it's easier and it doesn't matter.
Debbie