wDnnSCPS

Kane's Komments

Kane:

You all recall the arguments here, the claims, that only 10% of child
abuse followed up on by CPS (they report, in any case) was sexual
abuse?

You recall my rebuttal. You may also remember that the police and
others estimate that 90% of all abuse goes unreported, undiscovered.

Where do folks get such ideas? Easy, they interview adults who have
survived childhood abuse that was never discovered.

And here is a perfect example. 17% of men interviewed reported they
were sexually abused as children. Imagine what it might be for women.

And interestingly, the female perps in the cases above held a hefty 40%
of the offender numbers. Lots of unexpected things come out when one
studies long enough. Those that work for CPS know much of this already,
but they have no investment in babble with you cretins here.

Basically we haven't paid enough attention to this issue, despite the
appearance we do. And the claims of fools such as bobber, that wants to
claim there is no damage from sexual abuse unless "force" and
"violence" are involved.

Read'em bobber, and of course don't weep for the victims. At least
these are alive.

One in Six Men Victims of Childhood Sex Abuse
Females responsible for 38 percent of cases, a new study finds.
By Randy Dotinga
HealthDay Reporter

May 19, 2005-
Related Webcasts

* Parenting Challenges During Your Child's Sexual Maturity
* Helping Overweight Children
*
* Helping Your Child Through A Death in the Family
* The Back-to-School Physical: Why Does it Matter?

Health Library:

THURSDAY, May 19 (HealthDay News) - One in six adult men reported
being sexually molested as children, and - in a surprise finding -
nearly 40 percent of the perpetrators were female, a new study found.

Women fared even worse, with one in four reporting childhood
molestation, in almost all cases perpetrated by males.

Both male and female victims had higher rates of substance abuse,
mental illness and troubled marriages.

The findings are contained in a study of more than 17,000 California
residents that appears in the June issue of the American Journal of
Preventive Medicine.

"Children of both genders are vulnerable to childhood sexual abuse,"
said study lead author Shanta Dube, an epidemiologist with the U.S.
Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. "And the long-term effects
are similar, regardless of the gender of the victim.".........

[[[ Gosh, what about those 14 or 15 year old boys seduced by their
female school teachers...you mean to say they have similar effects as
female children of that age seduced by grown men? You bet, bobber. You
bet. I used to work with them, and saw the results. Only boys tend to
react a bit differently...they can more easily go to becoming dangerous
agressors themselves....the population I worked with was. ]]]

........ more of the story at:

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/Healtho...tory?id=773154

Kane writes:

Some time back I started mentioning that experts, police and others,
believe that child abuse is horrifically under reported... as much as
90% of it going undetected. I moved on to mention from time to time
that it's also extremely widespread. And here is yet another instance
of society taking this issue up as it should long ago.

Hi, Kane,

1) Why didn't police, who are mandated reporters, report those cases instead
of claiming they went undected?

2) If police and other "experts" are correct that 90% of child abuse is
unreported, that means that CPS should be investigating 10 times the number
of reports they are right now. That would result in more than 32 MILLION
children being investigated EACH YEAR.....that's almost half of the entire
child population in the United States. Since the average household with
children has 2.1 children, that would mean every US family on average would
be investigated each year for child abuse.

As far as I'm concerned you are nothing but apologists and supporters
of torturers. Torturers of helpless children. You should be punished.

You want those you disagree with to be punished by the government? Well,
this is one of the reasons some here would like to see the crime of child
abuse investigated by police and perps tried in a criminal court, where
there is due process of law. Civil remedies through social service
bureaucrats too often results in the punishing of those who disagree, as you
suggest.

No, to be punished, one should have broken a criminal law. That showing
must be in a public trial.

Doug

Kane writes:

Still think sexual molestation of children is waaaay down, Doug?

Hi, Kane,

Yes, state CPS agencies reported to USDHHS that cases of child sexual abuse
went down from 15 per 1,000 in 1998 to 12 per 1,000 in 2002.
http://tinyurl.com/5w6nu Physical abuse and other abuse also went down.

Think again, you phony.

Nothing to rethink since the numbers reported by CPS agencies were counts,
not fruits of thinking. Numbers are numbers. I think USDHHS is for real.

Doug

Kane's Komments

Kane:

Still think sexual molestation of children is waaaay down, Doug?

Think again, you phony.

Molestation suspect arraignment delayed
By Doug Keeler, Midway Driller City Editor

A Taft man accused of child molesting will be back in court in a week
for a continued arraignment.

William Delbert Pennywitt, 47, is formally accused of one count of
continuous sexual abuse and one count of sex abuse of a minor involving
force, but could face even more charges, Kern County Sheriff's
Investigators say.

Pennywitt was arrested last week and charge d with molesting a girl who
is now 13.

Investigators said the molestation started when the victim was 12.

http://www.taftmidwaydriller.com/art...res/feat01.txt

Kane:

So, bobber. Tell us again about the sentencing you think is too harsh.
This cop did three...THREE little girls. Who, according to you, if he
didn't "force" them or use "violence," (like a cop would have to use
anything other than his position of authority), shouldn't receive these
harsh sentences.

Yer sick, bobber.

Former sergeant sentenced for child molestation

Video

Posted 05/20/05
BAKERSFIELD - A former Sheriff's sergeant is heading to prison for
molesting three young girls.

If a judge accepts the terms of the deal, Michael Lackey will be
sentenced to 16 years in prison in exchange for pleading no contest to
three counts of molestation, including one count of continuous sexual
abuse of a minor.

Under the deal, Lackey will have to serve at least 13.5 years of his 16
year sentence and register as a sex offender when he gets out.

Prosecutors said despite Lackey's crime, his plea shows he had some
consideration for his young victims. ...

[[[[ Like a cop wouldn't know that once caught he best do everything he
can to show remorse....he'll be some target in prison...and he might be
thinking about impressing his fellow inmates with his sweet concern for
the poor little girls. don'tchaknow. ]]]]

..........more at:

http://www.kget.com/news/local/story...9-FD0B29DD0CF9


Kane:

Think we are through with the issue? That's it's just a small part of
CPS mandate? "ONLY" ten percent is sexual abuse?

Well, CPS catches a great many molestors and turns the cases over to
the police.....

Now take a look AGAIN, just as I have said for two years. This crime is
horribly under reported:


Betrayal of Innocence
System fails to protect most vulnerable victims

By Alice Mannette/staff



Illustration by Mike Tripp/The News Leader

On the Web

Sexual Assault Resource Agency434) 295-7273 or mwww.sexualassault
resources.org

National Center for Victims of Crime:mwww.ncvc.org

National Center for Missing and Exploited Children:mwww.missingkids.com
ADVERTISEMENT

STAUNTON -Thomas Weidner was confident, assured. He was an attorney
with a proven track record, defending a possible child molester. Then
the prosecution showed a picture from the defendant's collection - a
man having sex with a toddler, the young girl's eyes looking up at the
camera for approval. It was at that moment that Weidner, a father,
decided to switch sides and defend the victims of child abuse.

"It made me physically sick," Weidner said.

Now Weidner is the assistant commonwealth's attorney for Waynesboro.
Now he defends the kids.

"I put almost as many guys on the Web as I got off," Weidner said. "I'm
almost done with my penance."

Child molestation strikes one in four girls and one in six boys before
the age of 14, with more than 85 percent of the children knowing their
abuser. In Virginia, 99 percent of convicted sex offenders are men.

According to professor Gerould Pangburn, a former FBI agent and head of
the Administration of Justice program at Blue Ridge Community College,
studies show that crimes of this sort are underreported by 50 percent.

Carol Brunty, director of the Shenandoah Valley department of Social
Services, agrees.

"A lot of sex crimes go unreported," Brunty said. "As many cases as we
know of, there are more cases that we don't know. This happens far more
frequently in a family of means."

What bothers Brunty's predecessor Stephany Morgan, who served as
director for 12 years, is that sometimes the abuser gets convicted and
then continues to abuse.

"We got convictions on a number of people who went to prison and
re-abused," Morgan said. "What was accomplished except keeping them off
the streets for two to three years?"

According to Rep. Bob McDonnell of Virginia Beach, recidivism for the
crime of violent child molestation is high. He said studies show there
is a 33 percent chance the perpetrator will re-offend within five
years.....

[[[[ Yeah, bobber, WDNNSCPS, or harsh penalties for this sickos. After
all, the majority don't use physical "force" or "violence." After all,
the toddler mentioned was willing just to get approval. Yer sick,
bobber. Go get help. ]]]]

http://www.newsleader.com/apps/pbcs....505220321/1002

Kane:

This one's gonna frost yah, bobber. Not only are sentences for child
molestation, "too harsh" according to you, but one state is going to up
the ante.

.......The Legislature also approved of a package sharply toughening
penalties for sex crimes, and tightening supervision of criminals after
they're released. A separate measure sets aside $4 million to pay for
that effort. The measure doubles the prison term from five years to ten
years for the crime of lascivious acts with a child. It also denies the
standard early release from prison to offenders who refuse sex offender
treatment. A second conviction for sex abuse could mean a life term in
prison.

The sex abuse issue was fueled by the kidnap, murder and molestation of
10-year-old Jetseta Gage of Cedar Rapids. The crime took place during
this year's legislative session. The man charged with her murder had
previously served time for sexual abuse of a child, and had refused sex
offender treatment while in prison.....

[[[ Sorry bobber. This society believes children cannot give informed
consent to sex. And we mean to make it stick. Boohoo. ]]]

http://www.theiowachannel.com/news/4515462/detail.html

Doug wrote:
Kane writes:

Because I believe that a great deal of abuse is covered up by
friends
and neighbors, having witnessed it a time or two.

Hi, Kane,

Well, thankfully police officers are investigating and promise an
answer
soon.

Heheheh....seems I struck a nerve, Douggie boy. Awwwww....


Here, let's visit this again, and tell me there isn't a strong
possibility of a coverup in a little community --

What factors do you see in this story that spell coverup to you?

Oh, the words of the women on the recording, and what I know about how
people do these things. I watched a small town, back in about 1991,
completely come apart. Good friends, even family members, coming to
blows, cutting each other off, even selling out and leaving town....all
because one faction in the town was covering up for a man everyone knew
perfectly well (he had had victims for nearly 20 years, and the adults
who had been his victims finally spoke up) had sexual abused children,
both relatives and friends children for years.

It's quite common for people to try to keep such things out of their
community from becoming public, just as it is in familes, Doug.

Please don't pretend you are that naive.

http://tv.ksl.com/index.php?nid=39&sid=204961

FEMALE:"HI." MALE: "HI." FEMALE:"YOU GOT A MINUTE?" MALE:"SURE,
WHAT'S
THE MATTER?" FEMALE:"I JUST BEAT THE **** OUT OF CAITLYN."
MALE:"WHY?"
FEMALE:"I COME IN THE OTHER ROOM SHE'S GOT SOMETHING LYING IN THERE
AGAIN. SHE WENT AND GOT FROM IN BETWEEN MY BED AND I JUST LOST IT.
I
SAID (UNINTELLIGIBLE) **** (UNINTELLIGIBLE), YOU KNOW I THREW HER
DOWN
ON THE COUCH AND I BLISTERED HER ***, I BLISTERED HER LEG, SLAPPED
HER
FACE, THREW HER IN THE CORNER, GOT OUT OF THE HOUSE FOR HER
PROTECTION.
TOOK THE GARBAGE OUT, CAME BACK IN AND SMACKED HER SOME MORE. AND I
NEED YOU TO CALM ME DOWN."


Apparently, police discovered the incident was not nearly as abusive
as some
assumed from the narrative of the recording and detectives talked to
the
child and her mother.

And it's a small town. How do we know what the relationship of the
various police are to the principle folks in the story. I have a hunch
I'm going to be keeping a watch on this one, Dougger.

You know what happens when I do that, don't you, dougger? R R R R ...

Sgt. Paul Wimmer/Tooele Police Dept.: "AT THIS POINT, WE KNOW
SPANKING
WAS ADMINISTERED, NOT NEARLY TO THE LEVEL THE PHONE CALL INDICATES.
LIKE I SAID, THERE'S NOT A MARK ON HER."

A detective with Tooele Police also reports there is no resentment
towards the grandmother by either Kaitlyn, or Kaitlyn's mother.
They
hope to have the investigation finished by this afternoon. Police
still
don't know how this conversation ended up at LDS hospital."

LDS hospital? Want to guess who has been talking with this family about
coverup?

Just like you, greegor, they yell out whole sentences when they are
trying to coverup something.

Really? What does it mean when "they" yell out half sentences?

They are half covering up....0:- ?

"Kane:
And here again from yesterday's Kane's Komments, is that
grandmother
that claims on a recording that she abused a child but no one can
find
a mark on the child. Now who's lying here?

Like in the newsgroup here, quite possibly NOBODY is lying.

Nobody lies in this ng? R R R R R R R ......Douggerboy, you are a card,
as they say.

This ng is a hotbed of lying and has been for the nearly three years
I've been watching it.

Grandma says
things in a recording that others interpret as abuse.

Gee, I wonder why?

"I JUST BEAT THE **** OUT OF CAITLYN," ... "I JUST LOST IT," ... "I
THREW HER DOWN ON THE COUCH AND I BLISTERED HER ***," "I BLISTERED HER
LEG, SLAPPED HER
FACE, THREW HER IN THE CORNER," "GOT OUT OF THE HOUSE FOR HER
PROTECTION.
TOOK THE GARBAGE OUT, CAME BACK IN AND SMACKED HER SOME MORE. AND I
NEED YOU TO CALM ME DOWN."

Come on, Dougger. You picked a loser this time and you know it.

Police find no marks
on the child.

"Police" REPORT they "find no marks on the child," dougger. And in this
ng cops don't carry a world of credibility....except of course when YOU
want to have them support YOUR biases. Then suddenly, they are
choirboys....R R R R ...

Police are telling the truth.

Could be. Police don't lie, right? Police don't live in the close
little community and cover up for anyone, right?

Grandma is telling the truth.

Which time?

Some might recall that I've claimed that a great deal of abuse goes
unreported. And here, if this is one of those cases I think happens
fairly often, everyone rallies behind the abuser and denies the
child
her rights. So much for Doug's "3 times more likely to be abused in
foster care" based on "reported" abuse by bio parents and family.
Sure
Doug. "

Who is rallying behind the "abuser" and denying the child her rights?

The police, family members, other influencial people in the community,
possibly.

Never heard of that before, douggieboy?

YOU come to the rescue of some of your more unsavory pals in this ng,
even though they are liars, and child abusers.

Who
is "everyone" in this story who you say is doing so?

The list is above. I consider it highly possible, not proven, but
certainly in line with human nature in such situations. Nice ol'
granma' etc.

Now lie for me again.

Children are abused in foster care at a rate eight to ten times that
of
children raised by parents and others in the general population.

No, Douggieboy...they are REPORTED to be abused at that rate. Prove to
me that parents and others in the general population are as easily
caught and reported as foster parents.

Eight to
ten times, not three.

You bite on that every time, notice? 0:-

It's three times more deaths. Relax, you'll live longer. Your
temperature is rising, as it should have long ago about the nonsense
you post here. Minimizing child abuse. Arguing on issues that you know
perfectly well you have NO support for.

Refusing to honestly answer rebuttal. Shame on yah, Doug.

The case involving the four year old and her recorded
grandmother was, of course, REPORTED as abuse.

Isn't this interesting though. This is a case that typically should
have been reported to CPS and investigated by them. Possibly turned
over to police when CPS investigators found evidence of possibly
criminal assault. Hmmmmm...?

Police are determining
whether it was or not.

And when the police are bad, you notice, and when the police do
something YOU favor, suddenly it has to be "good cop."

Doug

Now Douggie, being a law abiding citizen, and having a soft spot for
police for my own personal reasons, I don't think they are all prone to
lie, or coverup for friends and family....but Douggie, some do. And
they are human.

Why don't you relax and go have a cold one. Do yah good.

You are getting terribly uptight these days. I think it's that anal
retentive repetition of the same old song and dance, long ago shoveled
into the compost pile where it belongs.

Have a great evening.

0:-

Doug wrote:
Kane writes:

Some time back I started mentioning that experts, police and
others,
believe that child abuse is horrifically under reported... as much
as
90% of it going undetected. I moved on to mention from time to time
that it's also extremely widespread. And here is yet another
instance
of society taking this issue up as it should long ago.

Hi, Kane,

1) Why didn't police, who are mandated reporters, report those cases
instead
of claiming they went undected?

I don't know. They didn't say. Are you suggesting they are either law
breakers, as they would be for not reporting, or they are lying? Why
would you do that? Desperation?

In a recent post I pointed out that we know the sex abuse rates are far
higher than the 10% or so that CPS reports. And we know that because of
what adults report later that happened to them as children. Do you
suppose the police might be looking at such things too? I understand
many of them read fairly well.

2) If police and other "experts" are correct that 90% of child abuse
is
unreported, that means that CPS should be investigating 10 times the
number
of reports they are right now.

How do you come by your "10 times?" Rather like your 8 and 3 times?
0:-

That would result in more than 32 MILLION
children being investigated EACH YEAR.....that's almost half of the
entire
child population in the United States.

Chilling, isn't it? I doubt it would be that high. Many children are
abused more than once....a logical, and common point that you seem to
overlook, as you overlook so much that an actual professional in the
field of child protection doesn't, or at least shouldn't overlook.

Since the average household with
children has 2.1 children, that would mean every US family on average
would
be investigated each year for child abuse.

No it wouldn't, for the simple reason that each child can be have more
than one investigation initiated. How simple has your manipulations and
convoluted thinking to mislead made you, Doug. This is too simple a
thing to miss.

As far as I'm concerned you are nothing but apologists and
supporters
of torturers. Torturers of helpless children. You should be
punished.

You want those you disagree with to be punished by the government?

I don't recall mentioning "government." You do a lot of reframing of
folks statements for your own use, don't you, Douggie?

If their behavior mirrors their speaking. Don't you think that it would
be appropriate someone receives some punishement? If one protections
torturers is one not complicite? At the very least, they should suffer
pangs of painful consciences for as many years as it takes for them to
learn to be more ethical members of society. Don't you think so,
................. Doug?

Well,
this is one of the reasons

But Doug, I didn't provide you with this excuse for your excesses....I
made NO mention of government punishment. You reframed my statement to
make it appear I did. Naughty boy.

I think that makes you a liar, Doug. Attempting to mislead people who
read and might not catch on to your slick, and slimy posting methods.

some here would like to see the crime of child
abuse investigated by police and perps tried in a criminal court,
where
there is due process of law.

It is.

You seem to fly right by the fact that criminal assualt cases against
children are in fact investigated by police, and the perps tried in
criminal court. CPS tends to intervene earlier in the cycle, hopefully
to both prevent it going as far as criminal assualt, and to get
children back to their families, if the family can create a safer
family environment.

Civil remedies through social service
bureaucrats too often results in the punishing of those who disagree,
as you
suggest.

That's not true. And it has nothing to do with what I said. I think
that if you in fact help a torturer hide, and you try to get laws
changed to protect them, there should be some consequences.

No, to be punished, one should have broken a criminal law. That
showing
must be in a public trial.

Doug, you are most mistaken, as usual. You must be compromized somehow.
I wish you'd get some rest.

Civil laws, when broken, Doug. Have punishments.

Are you suggesting they shouldn't?

What would be the point of them?

Some civil laws simply require "correction," which some would liken to
"punishment," Doug. Some who would like to overthrow such civil law and
live inu the chaos of that kind of society.

I consider those who do thinking as criminals do. Haven't worked with
criminals I assure you I heard a great deal of this kind of slick con,
manipulating the fact, and making illogical, but seemingly rational,
interpretations. Until one thought out what was actually being
advocated:

A complete breakdown of social sanctions and limits. Very bad stuff.

Bobber does it rather a lot. greegor when it suits his silly little "my
case" BS. You? Well, Doug what IS your reason for confusing people on
the issue of Civil v Criminal law?

Your ignorance?

I don't think so.

Doug

You have a nice evening and when you bed down, think about what I've
said, but more, Doug, MUCH more about what YOU have said here.

0:-

Doug wrote:
Kane:
I think this is going to another of those "mother's boy friend, or
aquaintance," stories. We'll see.

COPS Hunt Child Abuse Suspect
640 Toronto - Toronto,ON,Canada
Toronto police are keeping up the hunt this weekend Cedric Wilson -
the
primary suspect in what appears to be a severe case of child abuse.
....

http://www.640toronto.com/news/metro.cfm?cat=7428109912&rem=10185&red=80110923aPB Iny&wids=410&gi=1&gm=metro.cfm

Hi, Kane,

Well, it's nice that police are investigating.

The title of your thread is, "We Don't Need No Stinking CPS," right?

Maybe this case will cheer you up, and encourage more of Doug's
insistence that child abuse should all be tried in criminal court.

Child abuse is not a disease. Child abuse is a crime. It should be
treated
as a crime.

Most all crime is a social disease, Doug. Child abuse is no exception.
If we only wanted to have criminal courts, then we'd make all crimes
criminal court crimes, and do away with civil court, and wait for those
who would offend against their neighbors to escalate to the level of
criminal court offenses.

In our wisdom, as a society, we have moved from the more primative
society thinking and look to prevent. This resulted in us NOT cutting
off someone's hand or foot because they ran a stop light. We send them,
much of the time, to a civil traffic court, and they are most often
given small fines and sent to school, or lectured a bit by the judge.

Shall we go back to "crime" being the only time society can intervene,
or may we have civil law as well? Do you mind?

Apparently to some people, child abuse should be one of those
rarest of
crimes that we do NOT intervene in, like petty theft, before it
becomes
grand larceny. We KNOW to intervene in the petty theft, and work
toward
rehab or correction in those cases.

Well, certainly to nobody in this newsgroup. Petty theft is tried in

criminal court. Once convicted, the defendent can be sentenced to
thieves
rehab or stealers correctional facility.

Many civil offenses exist, and they are punished and treated with so as
to prevent an escalation. Those tend to not have "stealers correction
facility" involved, but instead, rehab and education.

What is so difficult to understand about intervening in child abuse
before it becomes felonious assualt? Stupid people. Anti social
twits.
That's what you are.

No one in this newsgroup has any trouble understanding that child
abuse is a
crime that should result in criminal charges against the perps before
it
becomes felonious assault.

Sure they do. You do.

There is not doubt among people that actually do child protection work
that a great deal of abuse and neglect isn't a sudden isolated
sponteaneous act, but a gradual breakdown and lessoning of restraints,
and increases of neglectful behavior.

That IS the puporse of CPS, not to punish, but to intervene if at all
possibly.

Child abuse is a crime in all fifty states.

Child assault is. It is also a civil offense in all fifty states.

You really got a babble going this evening. Wonder what's up, eh?

All
fifty states have various levels of criminal sanctions against the
crime of
child abuse, from misdeamnor all the way up to felonies, depending on
the
severity of the abuse.

Doug, your lecture format is getting kind of old. Since we all know it,
why restate it? To try and lead folks away from the obvious?

You want the early stages of child abuse to be treated as no big
deal
because children are the parent's "possession," to do with what
they
please, until it's too late. You should be horsewhipped. Which of
course would be illegal, unless done by a parent to their child.
Yuk.

To the contary, I would like to see child abuse treated as the crime
that it
is early.

It is. It's a civil crime. And CPS is an enforcement agency just like
the LE. Help them get better at what they do. LE's are not interesting
in the social aspects, mental health issues, family dynamics, and those
things that tend to emeliorate CPS intervention.

The fact is, Doug. You could have what you want, IF the police hired
the social workers and caseworkers, as they did in Florida. Problem is,
it simpy confuses things. And creates huge holes for abuse to take
place.

Instead of social service bureaucrats

Why call them names, Doug? You ****ed at them? What did they do to you,
Doug? Anything?

assigning parenting classes
and therapy for the kids, I would like to see the perps charged and
tried in
criminal court.

And then assigned parenting classes and therapy for the kids?

What have you accomplished except complications and confounding the
issues?

Instead of the state treating children like their
possessions and taking them into custody for federal funding, police
should
be taking the adult perps into custody. Like....

Doug the problems are obvious. The child would still have to be taken
out of the home, just as they are now, or risk further offenses and
witness tampering and evidence contamination. In fact, I doubt there
would be a SINGLE INSTANCE the child would be left in the home, unless
the alledged perp was subjected to a order of restraint, and that would
like be, since he or she wouldn't have been convicted yet, a civil
rights violation, and I agree it would be.

That is ONE of the reasons for family court, a civil court.

JURY reaches split verdict in child-abuse trial
Macomb Daily - Mount Clemens,MI,USA
... Jurors deliberated two days in James Riker's second trial
before he
was acquitted on one count of first-degree child abuse involving a
2-year-old
child, and ...

http://www.macombdaily.com/stories/052105/loc_child%20abuse001.shtml


Again, police investigated and the perp was tried in criminal court.
WDNNSCPS.

Yep.

Your stories are very consistent in their message that police are
investigating child abuse and perps tried in criminal court.

Yes, you noticed. That doesn't mean there aren't hundreds of thousands
of cases that are CPS interventions before the child is broken.

And it's obvious how protective you actually feel toward children given
your arguments.

You know, as everyone does here, that either the transfer of all cases
to criminal court and the police would result in them having to
duplicate (and likely escalate considerably) the practices of CPS and
the family courts.

It wouldn't take many abuses of the child left in the home to create
that. Look what happens when CPS leaves the child in the home....EVEN
WHEN THE JUDGE ORDERED IT.

So don't run your crap on us, Doug.

And remember what would happen to children unless they were most all
removed.

I guarantee we would either see MORE removals of children into out of
home care, or more children more injured and more likely dead by your
little scheme.

Reform CPS if you will. Get it the money it needs. Change the way in
which it conducts practice, change policies, hire people educated to do
their job better, and keep them trained. Don't overload them.

In fact Doug, if you weren't so busy trying to mislead, and confusing
yourself thereby, you'd know that in fact in states where there has
been consistent attention to these things, caseworkers do a much better
job. Hell, just lower the caseload and that's seen.

Doug

You've done it again. You've babbled and you think you are a genius
that has the answers. Child abuse isn't going to go away. It IS more
than is responded to by the authorities, and it is a problem that is
not going to be solved by law enforcement. Just as other problems they
address are not solved by them.

Social programs are what solve social problems, including the social
problem of crime, and specifically crime against children by their
parents.

Education. Employment. The bedrock of society. Not "family," but the
ability to maintain a family. Anyone can **** and make kids. But
"family" requires more.

And any social worker knows that.

Yer some example of a social worker you are, if you are one.

0:-

Doug wrote:
Kane writes:

Still think sexual molestation of children is waaaay down, Doug?

Hi, Kane,

Yes, state CPS agencies reported to USDHHS that cases of child sexual
abuse
went down from 15 per 1,000 in 1998 to 12 per 1,000 in 2002.
http://tinyurl.com/5w6nu Physical abuse and other abuse also went
down.

How is it you use one set of numbers and ignore others?

Think again, you phony.

I meant that.

Nothing to rethink

Sure there is. And I made that point. CPS reports are not the whole
society. And when children grow up and as adults report something
considerably higher, I think it's reasonable to assume that the
underreporting condition probably exists now as it did then for those
children who are now adults.

since the numbers reported by CPS agencies were counts,
not fruits of thinking. Numbers are numbers. I think USDHHS is for
real.

And I think reports from victims who have grown up is of considerable
importance when making policy and doing planning for child protection.

Doug

Using limited sets of numbers, and refusing others, and fighting
against the context of the counts (8 and 3 times more likly, indeed),
is rather stupid and inviting the same problems CAPTA brought.

But thanks for playing.

0:-

Kane writes:

Most all crime is a social disease, Doug. Child abuse is no exception.
If we only wanted to have criminal courts, then we'd make all crimes
criminal court crimes, and do away with civil court, and wait for those
who would offend against their neighbors to escalate to the level of
criminal court offenses.

Hi, Kane,

....And we do so. We do not give a citizen a summons for criminal court (a
traffic ticket) unless they reach the point of actually running the red
light in their car. Traffic offenses are criminal offenses, although a
parking ticket is certainly a summons for a relatively minor criminal
offense.

A criminal court must weigh the evidence and find the citizen guilty beyond
a reasonable doubt if the citizen pleads not guilty at the traffic court
hearing and goes to trial.

In our wisdom, as a society, we have moved from the more primative
society thinking and look to prevent. This resulted in us NOT cutting
off someone's hand or foot because they ran a stop light. We send them,
much of the time, to a civil traffic court, and they are most often
given small fines and sent to school, or lectured a bit by the judge.

Yes, only after they run the stop light do cops summon them to criminal
court, where they have the due process right to have their guilt determined
beyond a reasonable doubt or plead guilty to running the stop light. Either
way, we do not cut off their foot or hand, anymore than we would cut off
someone's hand if they were convicted of misdeamnor child abuse. Running a
stop light is a crime. Child abuse is a crime. Once convicted at trial
with evidence that meets the theshold of beyond a reasonable doubt, or after
pleading guilty to the charges, the citizen may well be given a small fine
by the judge, sent to school in lieu of another sentence or lectured from
the criminal court bench.
Running a stop light is a crime.

Child abuse is a crime.

Those who are alleged to have committed it should be charged and tried for
it before it increases to the magnitude where it becomes felonious assault.


assigning parenting classes
and therapy for the kids, I would like to see the perps charged and
tried in
criminal court.

And then assigned parenting classes and therapy for the kids?

What have you accomplished except complications and confounding the
issues?

You have allowed the citizen charged with the crime rights to due process.
The allegations are investigated by trained police investigators and
evidence heard and weighed in a public trial. A citizen is innocent unless
proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt in such trials. After proven
guilty, then the judge can assign parenting classes or force innocent
children into therapy. Not before. And prior to trial, cops don't order
citizens into classes under threat of arrest, like CPS orders parents into
parenting classes under threat of taking their children into state custody.

Doug the problems are obvious. The child would still have to be taken
out of the home, just as they are now, or risk further offenses and
witness tampering and evidence contamination. In fact, I doubt there
would be a SINGLE INSTANCE the child would be left in the home, unless
the alledged perp was subjected to a order of restraint, and that would
like be, since he or she wouldn't have been convicted yet, a civil
rights violation, and I agree it would be.

Removal of the child would not, under any stretch of the imagination, be a
done deal. Just as today, the vast majority of children are not removed
from their homes.

And remember what would happen to children unless they were most all
removed.

By far, the vast majority of children are NOT removed either before, during
or after a child abuse investigation.

Where did you get the idea that "they were most all removed?"

Out of the 895,569 children CPS substantiated as victims of child abuse or
neglect in 2002, only 169,000 were removed before, during or after the
investigation. http://tinyurl.com/35flt

In fact Doug, if you weren't so busy trying to mislead, and confusing
yourself thereby, you'd know that in fact in states where there has
been consistent attention to these things, caseworkers do a much better
job. Hell, just lower the caseload and that's seen.

What states have paid consistent attention to changing CPS policy, training
workers, and reducing caseloads so that CPS caseworkers do "a much better
job."? What states?

Doug

Doug wrote:
Kane writes:

Most all crime is a social disease, Doug. Child abuse is no
exception.
If we only wanted to have criminal courts, then we'd make all
crimes
criminal court crimes, and do away with civil court, and wait for
those
who would offend against their neighbors to escalate to the level
of
criminal court offenses.

Hi, Kane,

...And we do so.

And we do so what?

We do not give a citizen a summons for criminal court (a
traffic ticket) unless they reach the point of actually running the
red
light in their car.

No, Doug. We give a ticket based on what the officer THINKS someone
did. Someone may or may NOT have run the red light. We investigate,
Doug, just like in CPS interventions.

Traffic offenses are criminal offenses,

Some are, and some aren't. A few weeks back this same argument came
up...that traffic offenses are all criminal offenses. The country has
many civil traffic courts, Doug. Look it up.

although a
parking ticket is certainly a summons for a relatively minor criminal

offense.

YOu are as usual creating a fantasy world to justify your serious
thinking errors. Instead of reality, you make it up as you go along, as
you are doing now.

A criminal court must weigh the evidence

And so do civil courts.

and find the citizen guilty beyond
a reasonable doubt if the citizen pleads not guilty at the traffic
court
hearing and goes to trial.

Nonsense. Go find a traffic court and sit through a few cases. You are
such a bull****ter.

And the same system is in place for family court, Doug. I know it. You
know it. And anyone that has been in one knows it.

In our wisdom, as a society, we have moved from the more primative
society thinking and look to prevent. This resulted in us NOT
cutting
off someone's hand or foot because they ran a stop light. We send
them,
much of the time, to a civil traffic court, and they are most often
given small fines and sent to school, or lectured a bit by the
judge.

Yes, only after they run the stop light do cops summon them to
criminal
court, where they have the due process right to have their guilt
determined
beyond a reasonable doubt or plead guilty to running the stop light.

Choices are available to those CPS investigates, Doug.

Some choices are the same, some are different, but stop pretending that
family court, CPS, and child protection must be the same as traffic
court. That is stupid beyond reason. Traffic court is different than
food handing laws enforceement is different than professional sports
cheating enforcement is different than water safety enforcement is
different than child protection enforcement is different than economic
fraud....etc. etc. etc.

The analogies you try, Doug, and stupid. As you are.

Either
way, we do not cut off their foot or hand, anymore than we would cut
off
someone's hand if they were convicted of misdeamnor child abuse.
Running a
stop light is a crime.

One kind of crime. Not all crime is the same, equal, or requires the
same enforcement. That is why we have different laws, and different
enforcement proceedures for different kinds, and why we bother to
discriminate.

You have the thinking processes of a fascist, Doug.

Child abuse is a crime.

Yep, and can be prevented from becoming a criminal court level crime
with injury and death to children. This society decided a long time ago
they don't like you methods, Doug. So they had different kinds of laws,
and methods of enforcement to try and save children and families.

Once convicted at trial
with evidence that meets the theshold of beyond a reasonable doubt,
or after
pleading guilty to the charges, the citizen may well be given a small
fine
by the judge, sent to school in lieu of another sentence or lectured
from
the criminal court bench.

Yep.

Running a stop light is a crime.

Yep.


Child abuse is a crime.

Yep.

And since they aren't the same in nearly all dimensions, they are
handled just a bit differently.

However, you have just exercised yourself, and the credulity of the
reader, on an issue that doesn't fit. Traffic courts are in many places
civil courts, rather like family courts. Certain levels of traffic
violations, just like certain levels of child abuse, will go to civil
court or criminal court.

Your simplistic and misleading claims are a pile of BS based on your
making up reality as you go along. Childish, magical thinking, Doug.

Those who are alleged to have committed it should be charged and
tried for
it before it increases to the magnitude where it becomes felonious
assault.

Ah, couldn't have said it better myself. Exactly what happens in most
CPS cases that are not handed over to criminal proceedings, and stay at
the civil level where there is a chance of turning things around before
greater damage is done.


assigning parenting classes
and therapy for the kids, I would like to see the perps charged
and
tried in
criminal court.

And then assigned parenting classes and therapy for the kids?

What have you accomplished except complications and confounding the
issues?

You have allowed the citizen charged with the crime rights to due
process.

This is the infamous "big lie," Doug, and easy to sell, because anyone
that has a confrontation with legal authority feels, no matter what
rights they had and knew or didn't, and exercised or not, like they
didn't get enough 'due process.'

Usually they got it all and then some.

The allegations are investigated by trained police investigators and
evidence heard and weighed in a public trial.

You should get an award for recycling. YOu do enough of it. I've
rebutted most of what you claim time and again, Doug. The idea that CPS
investigators aren't trained is a crock. Even in the Florida example
that turned so sour on you as time passed, the COPS HAD TO HIRE CPS
INVESTIGATORS to work for them precisely because they were not trained
in the speciality.

Ask any detective if they can investigate any type of crime without
special training. There are a few skills that cross over, but a great
deal of specialty that does not. Child abuse investigators, police OR
CPS, must have special training. Ask them, stupid.

A citizen is innocent unless
proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt in such trials.

Yes, that is true in those cases that rise to the level of criminal
charges.

After proven
guilty, then the judge can assign parenting classes or force innocent

children into therapy. Not before.

No, they can offer choices in lieu of harsher penalties, Doug, just
like family court judges do. Yer a liar.

And prior to trial, cops don't order
citizens into classes under threat of arrest, like CPS orders parents
into
parenting classes under threat of taking their children into state
custody.

What a stupid man. Cops offer citizens choices all the time. And can
take goods, even the children, if the citizen refuses to cooperate.
Stop playing the fool.

You know perfectly well that cops, and even a doctor and remove
children on their own judgement without even talking with a judge.

Do you think people that use this ng are stupid and have no memories?

Doug the problems are obvious. The child would still have to be
taken
out of the home, just as they are now, or risk further offenses and
witness tampering and evidence contamination. In fact, I doubt
there
would be a SINGLE INSTANCE the child would be left in the home,
unless
the alledged perp was subjected to a order of restraint, and that
would
like be, since he or she wouldn't have been convicted yet, a civil
rights violation, and I agree it would be.

Removal of the child would not, under any stretch of the imagination,
be a
done deal. Just as today, the vast majority of children are not
removed
from their homes.

And you don't recall the ****in' and moanin' that has gone on here
about the alledged perp having to move out, or the child would be
removed?

You don't remember what the safety plan is for where children ARE left
in the home, and the assessment that is part of such plans so that the
family need NOT be disrupted by the child's removal.

Like I said, you just make it up as you do, don't you?

And remember what would happen to children unless they were most
all
removed.

By far, the vast majority of children are NOT removed either before,
during
or after a child abuse investigation.

But that's not the population we are discussing, Doug. We were talking
about all those cases where the child IS removed.

Once again you attempt to change the subject, and it's because you know
damn well you are blowin' smoke.

Where did you get the idea that "they were most all removed?"

I didn't say they were. I was referring to those that are, for the
reasons stated. That they would be at risk by the assessment and
judgement of the investigating worker. Some are left, and some are not.


Out of the 895,569 children CPS substantiated as victims of child
abuse or
neglect in 2002, only 169,000 were removed before, during or after
the
investigation. http://tinyurl.com/35flt

Which means nothing, Doug. Except that a worker judged some were at
risk remaining in the home.

In fact Doug, if you weren't so busy trying to mislead, and
confusing
yourself thereby, you'd know that in fact in states where there has
been consistent attention to these things, caseworkers do a much
better
job. Hell, just lower the caseload and that's seen.

What states have paid consistent attention to changing CPS policy,
training
workers, and reducing caseloads so that CPS caseworkers do "a much
better
job."? What states?

Ones YOU YOURSELF have named in the past as wonderful examples of
improvement.

http://tinyurl.com/abys6

I believe you also touted Florida as an example. And what was it that
actually worked, Doug?

The allocation of enough funds to add more workers. That was ALL that
it took, basically. Moving investigations to police didn't "improve" a
damn thing, and in fact MORE cases were being substantiated with the
use of police, who themselves hired more FORMER CPS WORKERS TO WORK FOR
THEM. And it cost more MONEY per case to investigate. MONEY MONEY MONEY
to do the job, Doug.

But with CPS itself no longer having to assign workers to
investigations, and worker numbers in CPS UP, darned if they didn't
manage to do things like clear up the backlog of cases and close them.
And as far as I've heard, they aren't losing kids anymore. Fancy that.

I posted the following once before, and like so much of my rebuttals
you cannot handle, you ignore them, or spend your valuable time
concocting elaborate ruses to lead the readers, (and I suspect,
yourself) away from the facts that confound your bull**** dreams. Read
this over, and get back to us.

http://www.actionchildprotection.org...ourri_1103.htm

[[[ The following is more or less a litany of the very arguments I've
presented here for 2 plus years, and I'm ****ing sick and tired of you,
with your personal agenda that both you and I know, and you keep
dodging when I ask you to share it, refusing to acknowledge that this
is the truth. ]]]

"....What are the contextual variables that heavily influence the
implementation of ideas, advancements and best efforts?

1) State budget shortfalls have resulted in static or reduced
funding. Too often state and county CPS administrators are being asked,
or rather, required, to do more with fewer resources. Some states and
counties in fact have seen both non-essential and essential caseworker
positions cut back.

2) Staff turnover has continued to be a challenge for those
jurisdictions that have not been directly affected by personnel
cutbacks. Some CPS agencies report that they experience vacancies,
either due to a lack of qualified applicants or hiring freezes, in
positions that could last several months.

3) Characteristics of the workforce interact with the nature and
characteristics of CPS. Poor working conditions, dangerous and
stressful working conditions, lack of community support and resources
and low pay make it significantly difficult to establish and develop a
staff that perceives CPS as a sustainable professional career.

4) Increasing workloads result from a reduced workforce. Efforts to
reduce and manage caseload sizes have been only marginally successful.
CPS workers are still managing caseloads that are unreasonably high.
The workload issue comes down to a matter of supply and demand: agency
supply capacity and community demand. Whether due to staff turnover, an
increase of families entering the system or a combination of both, the
bottom line is that there are more families in need of CPS than there
are CPS resources to serve them.

5) CPS works predominately with an involuntary population. Not only
are resources taxed but CPS staff are intervening to assist families
that in most cases do not desire CPS involvement.

6) CPS staff must work with little or no evidence that there is an
effective approach or method to CPS.

7) Political influences, routine changes in leadership and the many
changes in agency direction and vision compound all these issues.
....."

A fairly comprehensive, though not detailed, laundry list of those
factors that make your bull**** just that...bull****.

You lie about "throwing money" at the problem. It's NEVER been done.
Conditions were already so bad that large amounts of money not in fact,
when applied, ENOUGH, or likely to solve the problem in less than
YEARS.

One can't produce experienced trained educated workers out of thin air
instantly just because there is money. All these things take time to
accomplish.

Which makes you, Doug, stupid or a liar. Take your pick.

Personally I tend toward thinking you are a malicious propagandist of
some skill that cares not for children or families, but only for
destruction to satisfy your sick impotent rage over what happened to
YOU.

Am I right? If so, thank goodness most of your bile is confined to this
ng. In the real world you'd be such a menace to children and their
safety.

Doug

Enjoy your day.

0:-