Rant: Over indulgent parents strike again

On Wed, 21 Jan 2004 01:15:53 GMT, DTJ wrote:

On Tue, 20 Jan 2004 00:12:43 -0600, toto
wrote:

to. So are the stories of the immigrants who came through
Ellis Island and that's part of our history.

The problem is teachers don't want to talk about Ellis Island, they
prefer to talk about how horrible it is that little Juarez/Abdul is
being picked on by the big bad government because of his skin color,
neglecting to mention his status as an illegal alien.

Where do you get that? It's not what any of the teachers in the
elementary schools near me do.



--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

On Thu, 22 Jan 2004 07:01:48 GMT, "Margaret M."
wrote:

There is no way you can NOT be neglecting those
children unless they are packed away at nursery, daycare, school,
after school programs, or with a nanny.

My children are grown up. I could retire, but still work part time
by choice.



--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

On Wed, 21 Jan 2004 21:39:19 -0600, toto
wrote:

On Tue, 20 Jan 2004 23:22:21 GMT, (Brent P)
wrote:

Like ride a bicycle on the roadway. That's something I do. To avoid
conflict I could stop doing it.

Or you could lobby for bicycle paths that parallel the roads or a bike
lane on the roads.

I note you didn't get the joke...

And here I have been accused of not having a sense of humor...


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

x-no-archive:yes


toto wrote:

On Wed, 21 Jan 2004 00:41:28 GMT, "Stephen!" wrote:

"Margaret M." wrote in news:Tb6Pb.93252
:

Since he enjoyed reading to the other kids (he
had been reading to his baby brother for 2 years)

When I hit kindergarten the teacher got ****ed off
and called my mother... Bitched her out because I
"wasn't supposed to be able to read yet..."

What did your mom do?
I would have probably talked to the principle and seen
if you could have skipped a grade or at least been placed
in another kindergarten class.

That's what my mom did with my sister

I've been reading since 2½... The teacher felt it was
"her job" to teach me to read...

I was reading before K though not so young as you, but
I don't remember the teachers ever being upset about
that.

Funny thing was my mother had nothing to do with it..
I learned on my own by watching Sesame Street and
picking up a book... By age three I had read
the entire Webster's College Edition cover to cover...

I think most early readers learn on their own (although
I think being read to helps). My dd was reading at 3
and claims her friend in nursery school taught her. I
can't say that isn't true since her friend was reading
before she was, but I think it was more that they sat
in nursery school and read together.

I'm not sure when I learned to read, but in the case of my sister, I
really loved 'playing school', and I taught her to read, plus some
arithmetic. I didn't teach her to write.

So when she got to kindergarten, the teacher would leave her to read
to the class while she (teacher) took a break or something. My mom
got my sister skipped to 2nd grade, but she had to teach her to print
first because I hadn't done that.

We didn't have Sesame Street in those days of course - didn't even
have TV.

grandma Rosalie

In article , toto wrote:
On Wed, 21 Jan 2004 21:39:19 -0600, toto
wrote:

On Tue, 20 Jan 2004 23:22:21 GMT, (Brent P)
wrote:

Like ride a bicycle on the roadway. That's something I do. To avoid
conflict I could stop doing it.

Or you could lobby for bicycle paths that parallel the roads or a bike
lane on the roads.

I note you didn't get the joke...

And here I have been accused of not having a sense of humor...

If that was a joke for you, then you don't understand the issue.
And I didn't make the accusation.

In article LyHPb.97787$Rc4.600294@attbi_s54,
(Brent P) wrote:

In article , toto wrote:
On Tue, 20 Jan 2004 20:19:11 GMT, (Brent P)
wrote:

In article ,
dragonlady wrote:

was feeling better about being who HE was. (Looking back, I think maybe
he STOPPED trying to be someone he wasn't, stopped trying to fit in, and
gained confidence in himself as NOT one of the "in" crowd.)

This makes the assumption of trying to fit in, in the first place.
It certainly wouldn't work with a kid who wasn't trying to fit and
just being himself from the get-go. Where that independence generated
a negative response from the 'group'.

Of course not. Each case is individual and the person who is targeted
because he is not trying to fit in should not have to change to try to
fit in or even to keep a lower profile.

Analyzing what *can* be changed doesn't mean that you have to change
anything at all, but that you look at the situation and see if there
is something you can do and want to do.

And what if he doesn't want to? What if change is unacceptable to him?

The typical response will be the use of the term 'uncooperative'.
Resisting the corrective action will only bring the system down on
him harder to force the corrective action or cause those in authority to
simply wash their hands of it leaving the kid to fend for himself and
have no support what so ever. If there is another event, he's likely
now set up a system where he will be held accountable for it because
he didn't do what he supposed to.


Of course, I can't know exactly what would have happened had he or I
declined the invitation to be involved with this counselor, but I
certainly never got the impression that it would have been considered
uncooperative.

Even before they started this group, the school WAS responding
appropriately to the kids who were bullying my son (and others), and I
don't think they would have stopped.

You really seem dedicated to insisting that somehow, in this whole
thing, my son was blamed and treated badly by a system that insisted
that he was at fault.

Why does it bother you so much that a school counselor was able to
provide insight and help that resulted in my son being harrassed less
and him being, generally, a happier kid?

meh
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

In article ,
Bownse wrote:

Analyzing what *can* be changed doesn't mean that you have to change
anything at all, but that you look at the situation and see if there
is something you can do and want to do.

Which brings us full-circle to the room full of adult "authority
figures" intent on "suggesting" "courses of action" to the
already-pounded child. "Surely you WANT to be able to avoid this,
right?" "Surely you want to be able to prevent it from happening again,
right?" "Surely you want to alter yourself so as to prevent a situation
where us adults are forced into the same room with THAT bully, right?"

If any answer isn't toward conformity, then repeat the above for another
20 minutes.


So, in your view, adults should never offer insight or help to a kid,
because the kid will always view it as coercive. Adults should just
shut up and do nothing.

meh
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

In article ,
(Robyn Kozierok) wrote:

In article ,
dragonlady wrote:

I am arguing that sometimes it is possible to identify behaviors or
mannerisms that seem to invite harrassment, and that talented people who
can identify those things can also help (some) children modify the way
they behave so they are targeted less often.

I agree with this. And I think it is similar to having a child
study martial arts, not only so they will be able to defend himself
should that be necessary, but also, and often primarily, to help
the child exude an air of self-confidence that will help him be
less likely to be bullied in the first place.

However, I also think it is a fine line between suggesting changes that
are "harmless" and help reduce bullying and suggesting changes that
unreasonably ask the victim to change his personality. If a boy is
very sensitive and prone to crying readily, getting him to stop that,
if it's even possible, would probably reduce his being bullied, but
is that a reasonable change to ask?

Although, as I've said, I can't tell you exactly what
suggestions/insight/information my son received -- it would have been a
violation of his privacy for me to have insisted on knowing in detail
what went on between him and the counselor -- I CAN be pretty sure
"don't cry" or "don't be so sensitive" wasn't on the list, as I DID ask
about that before he started. Having spent much of my child hood being
told that if I just wouldn't cry so much when "they" picked on me,
they'd stop doing it, I know how thoroughly useless -- harmful, even --
that advice was! Even if the adults telling me that were correct, it
never helped me not cry so much, and just made me feel more miserable,
since I knew the adults watching the situation were shaking their heads
in disgust at my over-sensitivity.


Also, I think that by suggesting that there are ways that one can
avoid bullying, it *does* give the subtle message that when you get
bullied anyhow, it is your fault. I think a lot of women who are
raped feel at least partly to blame, even if people are telling them
otherwise, especially if they didn't follow all the rape preventions
guidelines often suggested. I suspect the same can happen for kids
who are bullied even after being coached in bully-avoidance.

I agree that it is a fine line, and a difficult one to walk. But that
doesn't mean we should never try to walk it, any more than we stop
trying to give advice about how to avoid becoming a crime victim in
other ways, as well.


I have suggested that if there are things a person
does (note: not things that they ARE; things that they DO) that seem
to increase the liklihood of being targeted, there is absolutely NO
downside to helping them identify that behavior and modify it.

I guess that would depend just how important being able to safely do
those things is to the person in question.


Robyn (mommy to Ryan 9/93 and Matthew 6/96 and Evan 3/01)
--
Be the first on your block to own the comprehensive and comprehensible
TCP/IP Guide! http://www.tcpipguide.com

For a challenging little arithmetic puzzle for kids and adults alike,
check out http://cgi.wff-n-proof.com/MSQ-Ind/I-1E.htm
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

In article , dragonlady wrote:

You really seem dedicated to insisting that somehow, in this whole
thing, my son was blamed and treated badly by a system that insisted
that he was at fault.

No I have not, I am dealing with things on a general level due to the
lack of information on the specific. I also don't like and try to avoid
making any specific comments regarding a personal story because it's
a usenet trap, the other person holds all the cards and will bring forth
other information later. This is why I ask for more information instead
of judging it. That information has not been provided so I keep it on
a general level.

Why does it bother you so much that a school counselor was able to
provide insight and help that resulted in my son being harrassed less
and him being, generally, a happier kid?

It doesn't. Please stop projecting.

Just because you people decided to attack me personally doesn't mean
I am doing the same. I have kept this at the level of objecting to the
concept of corrective action being applied to the victim. The victim
hasn't done anything wrong that demands he change. And as you point
out, saying no, or resisting the changes 'asked' for have negative
consquences in and of themselves. This is the primary reason for
my objection to this concept of correcting the victim. He's not the
one behaving badly, he's not the one doing anything wrong, he's not
disturbing others, he's not creating a poor environment. But, should
he not want to, be able to, or resist change as suggested, the system
will respond in a negative manner.

There have been several claims made with regard to this victim
corrective action in the specific case of one person, these claims
(like it was only small changes) remain unfounded because these
corrective actions remain undefined. Therefore, I have specifically
ignored the personal stories and stuck with the concepts.

"Margaret M." wrote in message
...
0tterbot wrote:
"Margaret M."
There is no way you can NOT be neglecting those
children unless they are packed away at nursery, daycare, school,
after school programs, or with a nanny.

her children are grown adults. is there anything else you need to
know or are you happy to keep assuming?

And you are answering for her because...?

you posted it on usenet, it's a public statement, & anyone is free to reply,
perhaps...?

satisfaction. next time you want to give us all a dose of your
inner princess, try being on time.

Sorry I was late, I was out living my LIFE.
You should try it some time.

oh, give it up. the three minutes of your LIFE you wasted writing your post,
you could have spent instead checking you were actually on the right track,
found that you weren't, & gone back to whatever it is you do.

but, you were wrong - this thread did not originate exclusively in m.k., i
cannot imagine why you seem to think it did, & like i said, if _you_ don't
want to see the thread, ignore it, & leave it to the participants. trying to
throw your weight around by telling other people what to do, when you are
clearly clueless about the situation in the first place, is a bit pointless,
eh?

i assume now you'll be so busy out living your LIFE that we won't be hearing
from you in this thread again.