Argument to the Black community on ...

Greegor wrote:
Way to go Doan!

Watch him try DENIAL, attack the sources, anything
to try to weasel out of acceptance!

Well, I certainly am not going to attack the source, since they prove my
point. And they are respected researchers.

What I pointed out was that monkeyboy drew conclusions not present in
the report. They used very circumspect language and I asked him why they
did. Instead of answering honestly, he simply pointed to another
statement that did NOT apply.

He has been doing this for years. He thinks it's clever, but he knows,
as I do, only those with the limited comprehension that you have will
fall for it.

He's like a CATHARTIC kid with oppositional defiant
disorder who just can't understand WHY you had the
nerve to SPANK him.

You are describing Dancing, Screeching, Hysterical Lying Monkeyboy to a
tee.

I simply have more colorful language to describe his behavior.

He posted a study that clearly states that it's finding are NOT
conclusive and causally precise. That is why they say, "may be" related.

One has to read research reports with an eye to just that kind of wording.

It is a useful report.

The even MORE recent report of an international study on various
societies came to a somewhat different conclusion. LaVonne posted it, as
I recall, and I've commented on it, and Doan dodged out of it with
precisely what you accuse ME of.

It showed that despite the acceptance of a society for high levels of
severe CP the outcomes where NOT what other researchers have claimed to
have found.

You recall that exchange, do you not?

If not, look it up.

Here is the article referencing the study:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...1114110820.htm

"Source: Society for Research in Child Development
Date: November 14, 2005
Post to:
del.icio.us, Digg, Furl,
Netscape, Newsvine,
reddit, Yahoo! MyWeb
Spanking Leads To Child Aggression And Anxiety, Regardless Of Cultural Norm

No matter what the cultural norm, children who are physically
disciplined with spanking and other such approaches are more likely to
be anxious and aggressive than children who are disciplined in other
ways. This finding, published in the November/December journal Child
Development, comes from surveys of parents and children in six different
countries. "

[[[ I'd say six countries is a fairly large sample, demographically,
wouldn't you, Greegor?

By the way, are you a masochist? ]]]

"To find out if the latter theory was valid, researchers from Duke
University in North Carolina, Chinese University of Hong Kong, Göteborg
University in Sweden, the University of Naples, the University of Rome
and the Istituto Universitario di Scienze Motorie in Italy, Chiang Mai
University in Thailand, the University of Delhi in India, the University
of Oregon and California State University-Long Beach questioned 336
mothers and their children in China, India, Italy, Kenya, the
Philippines, and Thailand about cultural norms surrounding the use of
physical discipline and how it affects children's aggression and anxiety."

[[[ So would you pretend to claim (I do so LOVE that bit, thanks) that
all these researchers were simply anti-spanking zealots? ]]]

" Summarized from Child Development, Vol. 76, Issue 6, Physical
Discipline and Children's Adjustment: Cultural Normativeness as a
Moderator by Lansford JE. Dodge KA Malone PS and Quinn N. (Duke
University), Chang L (Chinese University of Hong Kong), Oburu P and
Palmérus K (Göteborg University), Bacchini D (University of Naples),
Pastorelli C and Bombi AS (Rome University), Zelli A (Istituto
Universitario di Scienze Motorie), Tapanya S(Chiang Mai University),
Chaudhary N (University of Delhi), Deater-Deckard K (University of
Oregon), and Manke B (California State University, Long Beach).
Copyright 2005 The Society for Research in Child Development, Inc. All
rights reserved."

The research study abstract is at, and reads:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract

1: Child Dev. 2005 Nov-Dec;76(6):1234-46. Related Articles, Links
Click here to read
Physical discipline and children's adjustment: cultural
normativeness as a moderator.

Lansford JE, Chang L, Dodge KA, Malone PS, Oburu P, Palmerus K,
Bacchini D, Pastorelli C, Bombi AS, Zelli A, Tapanya S, Chaudhary N,
Deater-Deckard K, Manke B, Quinn N.

Center for Child and Family Policy, Duke University, Durham, NC
27708-0545, USA.

Interviews were conducted with 336 mother-child dyads (children's
ages ranged from 6 to 17 years; mothers' ages ranged from 20 to 59
years) in China, India, Italy, Kenya, the Philippines, and Thailand to
examine whether normativeness of physical discipline moderates the link
between mothers' use of physical discipline and children's adjustment.
Multilevel regression analyses revealed that physical discipline was
less strongly associated with adverse child outcomes in conditions of
greater perceived normativeness, but physical discipline was also
associated with more adverse outcomes regardless of its perceived
normativeness. Countries with the lowest use of physical discipline
showed the strongest association between mothers' use and children's
behavior problems, but in all countries higher use of physical
discipline was associated with more aggression and anxiety.

PMID: 16274437 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

One may obtain the full text of the study report at:

http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi...4.2005.00847.x

and;

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/conten...q5j986ml.alice

I believe there is a fee involved.

You might wish to search further for more information. I found this
interesting:

http://www.aseba.org/research/discipline.htm
" In other words, children who viewed parents in their culture as using
the most physical discipline also rated themselves as most aggressive.
As with many associations between parent and child characteristics, the
relations between mothers' use of physical discipline and children's
problems are complex and vary with the cultural context. However, across
six very different cultures, children whose mothers reported the most
physical discipline rated their children highest on the CBCL Aggressive
Behavior and Anxious/Depressed syndromes. Equally important, children
who reported the highest levels of physical discipline by parents in
their culture rated themselves highest on the YSR Aggressive Behavior
syndrome.

Reference:
Landsford, J.E., Dodge, K.A., Malone, P.S., Bacchini, D., Zelli, A.,
Chaudhary, N. et al. (2005). Physical discipline and children's
adjustment: Cultural normativeness as a moderator. Child Development,
76, 1234-1246. "

Care to comment on how Doan "spanked" me, Greg? And who might be in denial?

0:-








Doan wrote:
On Mon, 11 Sep 2006, 0:- wrote:

Doan wrote:
Hahaha! Kane is showing hist stupidity again. Any one who has read
the research on the effects of spanking on African American should know
that that, unlike white European American, spankings were associates with
lesser misbehavior and aggression. It is the lack of spanking that has
been shown, repeatedly, to be associates with higher misbehavior and
agression in the Black community.
Not so, monkeyboy. Prove your claim.

Hihihi! Here is a more recent study:

More study on the benefit of spanking on Black community.
"Regression slopes showed that the experience of physical discipline
at each time point was related to higher level of externalizing behaviors
for European American adlolescents but lower level of externalizing
behaviors for African American adolescents."

Sources:
Ethnic differences in the link between physical discipline and later
adolescent externalizing behaviors, Jennifer E. Lansford, Kirby
Deater-Deckard, Kenneth A. Dodge, John E. Bates, and Gregory S. Pettit
Journal of Child Psychology and Psychiatry (2004).

References:
Deater-Deckard, K., Bates, J.E., Dodge, K.A., Pettit, G.S. (1996).
Physical discipline among African American and European American mothers:
Links to children?s externalizing behaviors. Developmental Psychology,
32, 1065-1072.
R R R ....I notice you included NOTHING of their actual conclusions or
other significant portions of their research report...not even an
abstract. Tsk.

Let's see what it actually says, in the abstract, shall we eh?

Unlike you, who appear to be trying to conceal, as in LIE, I've even
provided the link:

Hihihi! The "never-spanked" boy tried his "formidable research skill"
again.

http://www.indiana.edu/~batessdl/cdp_abstracts.html#961

"1996

* Deater-Deckard, K., Dodge, K.A., Bates, J.E., & Pettit, G.S.
(1996). Physical discipline among African-American and European-American
mothers: Links to children's externalizing behaviors. Developmental
Psychology, 32, 1065-1072.

The aim of this study was to test whether the relation between
physical discipline and child aggression was moderated by ethnic-group
status. A sample of 466 European American and 100 African American
children from a broad range of socioeconomic levels were followed from
kindergarten through 3rd grade. Mothers reported their use of physical
discipline in interviews and questionnaires, and mothers, teachers, and
peers rated children's externalizing problems annually. The interaction
between ethnic status and discipline was significant for teacher- and
peer-rated externalizing scores; physical discipline was associated with
higher externalizing scores, but only among European American children.
These findings provide evidence that the link between physical
punishment and child aggression may be culturally specific. "

Now, Doan, The Monkeyboy, if they were as sure of YOUR claim as you seem
to be, why did they use the term, "may be" as in culturally specific?

Which part of "but only among European American children" don't you
understand?

You will notice, chuckle this was NOT an observational longitudinal
study, but a series of INTERVIEWS. The answered were scored.

Hihihi! Do you even understand what you are saying? Why don't you ask
your master LaVonne for a lesson in research methodology? STOP making
a fool of yourself, STUPID!

We can guess pretty well, given other studies of theirs, what that
socioeconomic levels were in the 100 AA families as compared to the Euro
Am families to the count of 466.

Hihihi! What a fool!

They didn't lie, but YOU most certainly did, or more likely are just
exhibiting your continuing stupidity and determined ignorance.

That you describing yourself! ;-)

You draw conclusions that to not follow from the source provided.

Hihihi! Which part of "but only among European American children" don't
you understand?

Try again, stupid monkeyboy.

Hihihi! Back to adhom again. How predictable you are!
I provided a link. I expect you to meet the same level of response.

I'll do better than that. I'll even provide the original source:

http://content.apa.org/journals/dev/32/6/1065

And you seem to be falling behind in your english comprehension classes
again.

Hihihi! Which par of "but only among European American children" don't
you understand, "never-spanked" boy?

The title of this article I provided isn't "research shows," it's, "Views"

Hahaha! That's a laugh! So you don't even have a research to back it up.

Native English speakers usually recognize that quickly as "Opinion" and
it was not offered under any other claim than "Argument" from my title.

Yup! "Opininion" is like an asshole; everybody got one! ;-)

Neither of the words related to research.

Hihihi! So you want provide "opinion" instead of facts!

As for the research you cite, but carefully don't link to, I'd like to
see the protocols for research, the methodology, if you will.

Look it up with your "formidable research skill"! ;-)

I'd like to see what YOU are calling "a lack of spanking." Lots of room
for abuse of the language and logic in that little phrase, monkeyboy.

Hihihi!

I note this is from a 1996 study.

Facts.

I quote an opinion from 2006.

vs. opinion.

He seems to disagree, as Black man, with the findings you have poorly
cited.

Hahaha! Do you even read what you wrote?

Many do, some very highly respected in the Black community and the
society at large, such as "Dr. Alvin Poussaint, a professor of
psychiatry at Harvard Medical School who has written extensively on
African-American issues, has long opposed the use of corporal punishment."

What research has he authored?

I presume he's tenured and a researcher.

Appealing to Authority. A logical flaw! ;-)

Apparently he and these other leading Black community members don't
agree with the claim YOU are claiming the study YOU have poorly cited is
making:

Opinion vs. facts! QED!

Doan

http://www.stophitting.com/disatschool/aaLeadsBanCP.php

The signed this statement and it's publicly posted, so they are
obviously willing to stand up and be counted.

And you will see people from many professions and followings such as
Christian churches included.

Your cause is corrupt, Doan. Worn out old ignorant superstition, not
scientifically supported, nor is it morally supported, even by those YOU
and a few other sycophants would like to claim spanking is good.

There is no justifiable reason for using corporal punishment to teach or
control a child. None.

And these Black leaders know it too.

Mr. Muwakkil is expressing a new sentiment that is rapidly taking hold.

Read it an weep, little apologist for the compulsives.

0:-

"No one knew 30 years ago how traumatic spanking was to a child's
psyche. You should avoid using physical force on your child."
.. DR. ALVIN POUSSAINT



Doan


On Sat, 9 Sep 2006, 0:- wrote:

... spanking, of course.

http://www.inthesetimes.com/site/main/article/2812/

Views September 8, 2006 Web Only
Corporal Punishment?s Hidden Costs
By Salim Muwakkil

If the civil rights community began a movement to discourage
corporal punishment among African Americans, I believe it would do more
to stem the tide of interpersonal violence than any other strategy.

An errant bullet hit the eye of a 12-year-old Chicago girl on August 27
but she survived. Earlier this year, stray bullets killed two girls in
separate incidents in the city?s Englewood neighborhood and triggered a
flurry of activity designed to address the chronic violence hammering
Chicago?s inner-city neighborhoods.

In black communities across the United States, concerned people are
gathering with increasing urgency, seeking solutions to rising rates of
violence.

Let me add one suggestion that is not likely to be raised at any of
these gatherings: Stop spanking your children.

If the civil rights community began a movement to discourage corporal
punishment among African-Americans, I believe it would do more to stem
the tide of interpersonal violence than any other strategy.

Experts are increasingly fingering corporal punishment?the infliction of
physical pain on the body of a child for purposes of punishment or
controlling behavior?as the culprit in a wide variety of social
dysfunctions. A host of relevant professional organizations, including
the American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Psychological
Association and the National Association of Social Workers have
published position papers opposing or strongly discouraging corporal
punishment of children.

International research on the deleterious effects of physical punishment
is so compelling that the United Nations has initiated a global program
to eliminate it. Not only is corporal punishment of children a violation
of human rights, the United Nations argued in a 2005 UNESCO publication,
that according to a preponderance of research, it is also
?counterproductive, relatively ineffective, dangerous and harmful.?

In 1979, Sweden became the first country in the world to ban all
corporal punishment of children. Twelve more European countries have
followed: Denmark, Norway, Finland, Austria, Cyprus, Italy, Croatia,
Latvia, Germany, Bulgaria, Ukraine and Iceland. Leaders in these
countries concluded that the costs of corporal punishment were too high
for a society that called itself civilized.

Despite this wide consensus on the ills of corporal punishment, there is
scant sentiment for an anti-spanking movement among African Americans.
But that may be changing. Growing numbers of experts who focus on the
black community, are also raising questions about the high costs of
using physical violence to punish children. Dr. Alvin Poussaint, a
professor of psychiatry at Harvard Medical School who has written
extensively on African-American issues, has long opposed the use of
corporal punishment.

His major argument is simple: ?the use of corporal punishment teaches
children that violence is the way to solve problems.? Poussaint, who was
an adviser to the popular program ?The Cosby Show,? says corporal
punishment also has other harmful effects on the social life of the
black community.

At a recent forum on young black men, sponsored by the Washington Post
and the Kaiser Family Foundation, Poussaint fingered corporal punishment
as a factor in the disproportionate expulsions of black children from
pre-school programs, especially males. He said his research has found
that even preschool black males harbor a lot of anger.

?There?s an overuse of beating kids,? he said, breaking a major taboo
among black leadership by raising this issue. ?So that you have 80
percent of black parents believing you should beat them?beat the devil
out of them. And research shows the more you beat them, the angrier they
get.?

High levels of violent crime in black communities certainly reflect that
anger. According to figures from the Department of Justice?s Bureau of
Justice Statistics, African Americans were more likely than other
Americans to be both victims and perpetrators of violent crime.

In 2000, blacks were six times more likely than whites to be victims of
murder. They also were seven times more likely to be perpetrators. In
fact, for the last half-century blacks were homicide victims at least
five times more than whites were. Sometimes that rate reached more than
ten times the white rate.

Among the major reasons cited for this disparity are poverty,
segregation, media violence and the self-hatred inculcated by a white
supremacist culture. Some argue the problem is simply one of bad
behavior, abetted by black communities that deemphasize personal
responsibility and cultural standards.

There is a bit of truth in those explanations, but Poussaint?s
anti-spanking reasoning also makes sense. What doesn?t make sense is
that black leaders have yet to make the connection between high rates of
corporal punishment and high rates of interpersonal violence.

One reason for this reticence is the influence of the church. All
spanking advocates need to do is cite a biblical justification not to

--
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin (or someone else)




--
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin (or someone else)

It's obvious! Is anyone on this newsgroup actually believe him? I doubt
it.

Doan


On 19 Sep 2006, Greegor wrote:

Way to go Doan!

Watch him try DENIAL, attack the sources, anything
to try to weasel out of acceptance!

He's like a CATHARTIC kid with oppositional defiant
disorder who just can't understand WHY you had the
nerve to SPANK him.



Doan wrote:
On Mon, 11 Sep 2006, 0:- wrote:

Doan wrote:
Hahaha! Kane is showing hist stupidity again. Any one who has read
the research on the effects of spanking on African American should know
that that, unlike white European American, spankings were associates with
lesser misbehavior and aggression. It is the lack of spanking that has
been shown, repeatedly, to be associates with higher misbehavior and
agression in the Black community.

Not so, monkeyboy. Prove your claim.

Hihihi! Here is a more recent study:

More study on the benefit of spanking on Black community.
"Regression slopes showed that the experience of physical discipline
at each time point was related to higher level of externalizing behaviors
for European American adlolescents but lower level of externalizing
behaviors for African American adolescents."

Sources:
Ethnic differences in the link between physical discipline and later
adolescent externalizing behaviors, Jennifer E. Lansford, Kirby
Deater-Deckard, Kenneth A. Dodge, John E. Bates, and Gregory S. Pettit
Journal of Child Psychology and Psychiatry (2004).


References:
Deater-Deckard, K., Bates, J.E., Dodge, K.A., Pettit, G.S. (1996).
Physical discipline among African American and European American mothers:
Links to children?s externalizing behaviors. Developmental Psychology,
32, 1065-1072.

R R R ....I notice you included NOTHING of their actual conclusions or
other significant portions of their research report...not even an
abstract. Tsk.

Let's see what it actually says, in the abstract, shall we eh?

Unlike you, who appear to be trying to conceal, as in LIE, I've even
provided the link:

Hihihi! The "never-spanked" boy tried his "formidable research skill"
again.

http://www.indiana.edu/~batessdl/cdp_abstracts.html#961

"1996

* Deater-Deckard, K., Dodge, K.A., Bates, J.E., & Pettit, G.S.
(1996). Physical discipline among African-American and European-American
mothers: Links to children's externalizing behaviors. Developmental
Psychology, 32, 1065-1072.

The aim of this study was to test whether the relation between
physical discipline and child aggression was moderated by ethnic-group
status. A sample of 466 European American and 100 African American
children from a broad range of socioeconomic levels were followed from
kindergarten through 3rd grade. Mothers reported their use of physical
discipline in interviews and questionnaires, and mothers, teachers, and
peers rated children's externalizing problems annually. The interaction
between ethnic status and discipline was significant for teacher- and
peer-rated externalizing scores; physical discipline was associated with
higher externalizing scores, but only among European American children.
These findings provide evidence that the link between physical
punishment and child aggression may be culturally specific. "

Now, Doan, The Monkeyboy, if they were as sure of YOUR claim as you seem
to be, why did they use the term, "may be" as in culturally specific?

Which part of "but only among European American children" don't you
understand?

You will notice, chuckle this was NOT an observational longitudinal
study, but a series of INTERVIEWS. The answered were scored.

Hihihi! Do you even understand what you are saying? Why don't you ask
your master LaVonne for a lesson in research methodology? STOP making
a fool of yourself, STUPID!

We can guess pretty well, given other studies of theirs, what that
socioeconomic levels were in the 100 AA families as compared to the Euro
Am families to the count of 466.

Hihihi! What a fool!

They didn't lie, but YOU most certainly did, or more likely are just
exhibiting your continuing stupidity and determined ignorance.

That you describing yourself! ;-)

You draw conclusions that to not follow from the source provided.

Hihihi! Which part of "but only among European American children" don't
you understand?

Try again, stupid monkeyboy.

Hihihi! Back to adhom again. How predictable you are!

I provided a link. I expect you to meet the same level of response.

I'll do better than that. I'll even provide the original source:

http://content.apa.org/journals/dev/32/6/1065

And you seem to be falling behind in your english comprehension classes
again.

Hihihi! Which par of "but only among European American children" don't
you understand, "never-spanked" boy?

The title of this article I provided isn't "research shows," it's, "Views"

Hahaha! That's a laugh! So you don't even have a research to back it up.

Native English speakers usually recognize that quickly as "Opinion" and
it was not offered under any other claim than "Argument" from my title.

Yup! "Opininion" is like an asshole; everybody got one! ;-)

Neither of the words related to research.

Hihihi! So you want provide "opinion" instead of facts!

As for the research you cite, but carefully don't link to, I'd like to
see the protocols for research, the methodology, if you will.

Look it up with your "formidable research skill"! ;-)

I'd like to see what YOU are calling "a lack of spanking." Lots of room
for abuse of the language and logic in that little phrase, monkeyboy.

Hihihi!

I note this is from a 1996 study.

Facts.

I quote an opinion from 2006.

vs. opinion.

He seems to disagree, as Black man, with the findings you have poorly
cited.

Hahaha! Do you even read what you wrote?

Many do, some very highly respected in the Black community and the
society at large, such as "Dr. Alvin Poussaint, a professor of
psychiatry at Harvard Medical School who has written extensively on
African-American issues, has long opposed the use of corporal punishment."

What research has he authored?

I presume he's tenured and a researcher.

Appealing to Authority. A logical flaw! ;-)

Apparently he and these other leading Black community members don't
agree with the claim YOU are claiming the study YOU have poorly cited is
making:

Opinion vs. facts! QED!

Doan

http://www.stophitting.com/disatschool/aaLeadsBanCP.php

The signed this statement and it's publicly posted, so they are
obviously willing to stand up and be counted.

And you will see people from many professions and followings such as
Christian churches included.

Your cause is corrupt, Doan. Worn out old ignorant superstition, not
scientifically supported, nor is it morally supported, even by those YOU
and a few other sycophants would like to claim spanking is good.

There is no justifiable reason for using corporal punishment to teach or
control a child. None.

And these Black leaders know it too.

Mr. Muwakkil is expressing a new sentiment that is rapidly taking hold.

Read it an weep, little apologist for the compulsives.

0:-

"No one knew 30 years ago how traumatic spanking was to a child's
psyche. You should avoid using physical force on your child."
.. DR. ALVIN POUSSAINT




Doan


On Sat, 9 Sep 2006, 0:- wrote:

... spanking, of course.

http://www.inthesetimes.com/site/main/article/2812/

Views September 8, 2006 Web Only
Corporal Punishment?s Hidden Costs
By Salim Muwakkil

If the civil rights community began a movement to discourage
corporal punishment among African Americans, I believe it would do more
to stem the tide of interpersonal violence than any other strategy.

An errant bullet hit the eye of a 12-year-old Chicago girl on August 27
but she survived. Earlier this year, stray bullets killed two girls in
separate incidents in the city?s Englewood neighborhood and triggered a
flurry of activity designed to address the chronic violence hammering
Chicago?s inner-city neighborhoods.

In black communities across the United States, concerned people are
gathering with increasing urgency, seeking solutions to rising rates of
violence.

Let me add one suggestion that is not likely to be raised at any of
these gatherings: Stop spanking your children.

If the civil rights community began a movement to discourage corporal
punishment among African-Americans, I believe it would do more to stem
the tide of interpersonal violence than any other strategy.

Experts are increasingly fingering corporal punishment?the infliction of
physical pain on the body of a child for purposes of punishment or
controlling behavior?as the culprit in a wide variety of social
dysfunctions. A host of relevant professional organizations, including
the American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Psychological
Association and the National Association of Social Workers have
published position papers opposing or strongly discouraging corporal
punishment of children.

International research on the deleterious effects of physical punishment
is so compelling that the United Nations has initiated a global program
to eliminate it. Not only is corporal punishment of children a violation
of human rights, the United Nations argued in a 2005 UNESCO publication,
that according to a preponderance of research, it is also
?counterproductive, relatively ineffective, dangerous and harmful.?

In 1979, Sweden became the first country in the world to ban all
corporal punishment of children. Twelve more European countries have
followed: Denmark, Norway, Finland, Austria, Cyprus, Italy, Croatia,
Latvia, Germany, Bulgaria, Ukraine and Iceland. Leaders in these
countries concluded that the costs of corporal punishment were too high
for a society that called itself civilized.

Despite this wide consensus on the ills of corporal punishment, there is
scant sentiment for an anti-spanking movement among African Americans.
But that may be changing. Growing numbers of experts who focus on the
black community, are also raising questions about the high costs of
using physical violence to punish children. Dr. Alvin Poussaint, a
professor of psychiatry at Harvard Medical School who has written
extensively on African-American issues, has long opposed the use of
corporal punishment.

His major argument is simple: ?the use of corporal punishment teaches
children that violence is the way to solve problems.? Poussaint, who was
an adviser to the popular program ?The Cosby Show,? says corporal
punishment also has other harmful effects on the social life of the
black community.

At a recent forum on young black men, sponsored by the Washington Post
and the Kaiser Family Foundation, Poussaint fingered corporal punishment
as a factor in the disproportionate expulsions of black children from
pre-school programs, especially males. He said his research has found
that even preschool black males harbor a lot of anger.

?There?s an overuse of beating kids,? he said, breaking a major taboo
among black leadership by raising this issue. ?So that you have 80
percent of black parents believing you should beat them?beat the devil
out of them. And research shows the more you beat them, the angrier they
get.?

High levels of violent crime in black communities certainly reflect that
anger. According to figures from the Department of Justice?s Bureau of
Justice Statistics, African Americans were more likely than other
Americans to be both victims and perpetrators of violent crime.

In 2000, blacks were six times more likely than whites to be victims of
murder. They also were seven times more likely to be perpetrators. In
fact, for the last half-century blacks were homicide victims at least
five times more than whites were. Sometimes that rate reached more than
ten times the white rate.

Among the major reasons cited for this disparity are poverty,
segregation, media violence and the self-hatred inculcated by a white
supremacist culture. Some argue the problem is simply one of bad
behavior, abetted by black communities that deemphasize personal
responsibility and cultural standards.

There is a bit of truth in those explanations, but Poussaint?s
anti-spanking reasoning also makes sense. What doesn?t make sense is
that black leaders have yet to make the connection between high rates of
corporal punishment and high rates of interpersonal violence.

One reason for this reticence is the influence of the church. All
spanking advocates need to do is cite a biblical justification not to


--
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin (or someone else)

Doan wrote:

It's obvious!

What "it's" are you claiming?

Is anyone on this newsgroup actually believe him?

They don't have to "believe," they only have to read and comprehend.

I doubt
it.

Well of course -- the never ending dilemma of the self deluding.

You will believe what you want to believe, facts be damned.

What is 'obvious' is that the research report you cite says "may be" not
"conclusively."

Yet you are unable to respond to the International study LaVonne posted
a reference to, and I have again, and again, and again, that finds in
fact from a MUCH larger and more (six times more) diverse demographic
sample something to the contrary...that the more CP and the more severe
CP the more likelihood of negative outcomes. This sample also includes
black Africans. Though I don't hold with racial components being more
important than ethnicities or societies that differ. "Culture is the
Culprit" is a favorite saying of my old Anthro prof. You'd be surprised
to know who he or she was. I was in university in both the late 60's and
late 80's into the 90's. Guess where.

What is also obvious, is that outside of the dim and nearly lifeless
poster or three no one is responding to your question.

That would suggest either or both of the following to be true: they know
I'm right; also they know it is pointless to argue it with someone so
dishonorable and lying in your argument methods as you are.

When you have lost you become more and more erratic and more and more
likely to point away from the facts of the issue, sometimes even the
issue itself, and not just divert, but divert with conclusions that do
not follow the evidence provided by you, or even by your opponent.

You are one strange duck.

0:-


Doan


On 19 Sep 2006, Greegor wrote:

Way to go Doan!

Watch him try DENIAL, attack the sources, anything
to try to weasel out of acceptance!

He's like a CATHARTIC kid with oppositional defiant
disorder who just can't understand WHY you had the
nerve to SPANK him.



Doan wrote:
On Mon, 11 Sep 2006, 0:- wrote:

Doan wrote:
Hahaha! Kane is showing hist stupidity again. Any one who has read
the research on the effects of spanking on African American should know
that that, unlike white European American, spankings were associates with
lesser misbehavior and aggression. It is the lack of spanking that has
been shown, repeatedly, to be associates with higher misbehavior and
agression in the Black community.
Not so, monkeyboy. Prove your claim.

Hihihi! Here is a more recent study:

More study on the benefit of spanking on Black community.
"Regression slopes showed that the experience of physical discipline
at each time point was related to higher level of externalizing behaviors
for European American adlolescents but lower level of externalizing
behaviors for African American adolescents."

Sources:
Ethnic differences in the link between physical discipline and later
adolescent externalizing behaviors, Jennifer E. Lansford, Kirby
Deater-Deckard, Kenneth A. Dodge, John E. Bates, and Gregory S. Pettit
Journal of Child Psychology and Psychiatry (2004).

References:
Deater-Deckard, K., Bates, J.E., Dodge, K.A., Pettit, G.S. (1996).
Physical discipline among African American and European American mothers:
Links to children?s externalizing behaviors. Developmental Psychology,
32, 1065-1072.
R R R ....I notice you included NOTHING of their actual conclusions or
other significant portions of their research report...not even an
abstract. Tsk.

Let's see what it actually says, in the abstract, shall we eh?

Unlike you, who appear to be trying to conceal, as in LIE, I've even
provided the link:

Hihihi! The "never-spanked" boy tried his "formidable research skill"
again.

http://www.indiana.edu/~batessdl/cdp_abstracts.html#961

"1996

* Deater-Deckard, K., Dodge, K.A., Bates, J.E., & Pettit, G.S.
(1996). Physical discipline among African-American and European-American
mothers: Links to children's externalizing behaviors. Developmental
Psychology, 32, 1065-1072.

The aim of this study was to test whether the relation between
physical discipline and child aggression was moderated by ethnic-group
status. A sample of 466 European American and 100 African American
children from a broad range of socioeconomic levels were followed from
kindergarten through 3rd grade. Mothers reported their use of physical
discipline in interviews and questionnaires, and mothers, teachers, and
peers rated children's externalizing problems annually. The interaction
between ethnic status and discipline was significant for teacher- and
peer-rated externalizing scores; physical discipline was associated with
higher externalizing scores, but only among European American children.
These findings provide evidence that the link between physical
punishment and child aggression may be culturally specific. "

Now, Doan, The Monkeyboy, if they were as sure of YOUR claim as you seem
to be, why did they use the term, "may be" as in culturally specific?

Which part of "but only among European American children" don't you
understand?

You will notice, chuckle this was NOT an observational longitudinal
study, but a series of INTERVIEWS. The answered were scored.

Hihihi! Do you even understand what you are saying? Why don't you ask
your master LaVonne for a lesson in research methodology? STOP making
a fool of yourself, STUPID!

We can guess pretty well, given other studies of theirs, what that
socioeconomic levels were in the 100 AA families as compared to the Euro
Am families to the count of 466.

Hihihi! What a fool!

They didn't lie, but YOU most certainly did, or more likely are just
exhibiting your continuing stupidity and determined ignorance.

That you describing yourself! ;-)

You draw conclusions that to not follow from the source provided.

Hihihi! Which part of "but only among European American children" don't
you understand?

Try again, stupid monkeyboy.

Hihihi! Back to adhom again. How predictable you are!
I provided a link. I expect you to meet the same level of response.

I'll do better than that. I'll even provide the original source:

http://content.apa.org/journals/dev/32/6/1065

And you seem to be falling behind in your english comprehension classes
again.

Hihihi! Which par of "but only among European American children" don't
you understand, "never-spanked" boy?

The title of this article I provided isn't "research shows," it's, "Views"

Hahaha! That's a laugh! So you don't even have a research to back it up.

Native English speakers usually recognize that quickly as "Opinion" and
it was not offered under any other claim than "Argument" from my title.

Yup! "Opininion" is like an asshole; everybody got one! ;-)

Neither of the words related to research.

Hihihi! So you want provide "opinion" instead of facts!

As for the research you cite, but carefully don't link to, I'd like to
see the protocols for research, the methodology, if you will.

Look it up with your "formidable research skill"! ;-)

I'd like to see what YOU are calling "a lack of spanking." Lots of room
for abuse of the language and logic in that little phrase, monkeyboy.

Hihihi!

I note this is from a 1996 study.

Facts.

I quote an opinion from 2006.

vs. opinion.

He seems to disagree, as Black man, with the findings you have poorly
cited.

Hahaha! Do you even read what you wrote?

Many do, some very highly respected in the Black community and the
society at large, such as "Dr. Alvin Poussaint, a professor of
psychiatry at Harvard Medical School who has written extensively on
African-American issues, has long opposed the use of corporal punishment."

What research has he authored?

I presume he's tenured and a researcher.

Appealing to Authority. A logical flaw! ;-)

Apparently he and these other leading Black community members don't
agree with the claim YOU are claiming the study YOU have poorly cited is
making:

Opinion vs. facts! QED!

Doan

http://www.stophitting.com/disatschool/aaLeadsBanCP.php

The signed this statement and it's publicly posted, so they are
obviously willing to stand up and be counted.

And you will see people from many professions and followings such as
Christian churches included.

Your cause is corrupt, Doan. Worn out old ignorant superstition, not
scientifically supported, nor is it morally supported, even by those YOU
and a few other sycophants would like to claim spanking is good.

There is no justifiable reason for using corporal punishment to teach or
control a child. None.

And these Black leaders know it too.

Mr. Muwakkil is expressing a new sentiment that is rapidly taking hold.

Read it an weep, little apologist for the compulsives.

0:-

"No one knew 30 years ago how traumatic spanking was to a child's
psyche. You should avoid using physical force on your child."
.. DR. ALVIN POUSSAINT



Doan


On Sat, 9 Sep 2006, 0:- wrote:

... spanking, of course.

http://www.inthesetimes.com/site/main/article/2812/

Views September 8, 2006 Web Only
Corporal Punishment?s Hidden Costs
By Salim Muwakkil

If the civil rights community began a movement to discourage
corporal punishment among African Americans, I believe it would do more
to stem the tide of interpersonal violence than any other strategy.

An errant bullet hit the eye of a 12-year-old Chicago girl on August 27
but she survived. Earlier this year, stray bullets killed two girls in
separate incidents in the city?s Englewood neighborhood and triggered a
flurry of activity designed to address the chronic violence hammering
Chicago?s inner-city neighborhoods.

In black communities across the United States, concerned people are
gathering with increasing urgency, seeking solutions to rising rates of
violence.

Let me add one suggestion that is not likely to be raised at any of
these gatherings: Stop spanking your children.

If the civil rights community began a movement to discourage corporal
punishment among African-Americans, I believe it would do more to stem
the tide of interpersonal violence than any other strategy.

Experts are increasingly fingering corporal punishment?the infliction of
physical pain on the body of a child for purposes of punishment or
controlling behavior?as the culprit in a wide variety of social
dysfunctions. A host of relevant professional organizations, including
the American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Psychological
Association and the National Association of Social Workers have
published position papers opposing or strongly discouraging corporal
punishment of children.

International research on the deleterious effects of physical punishment
is so compelling that the United Nations has initiated a global program
to eliminate it. Not only is corporal punishment of children a violation
of human rights, the United Nations argued in a 2005 UNESCO publication,
that according to a preponderance of research, it is also
?counterproductive, relatively ineffective, dangerous and harmful.?

In 1979, Sweden became the first country in the world to ban all
corporal punishment of children. Twelve more European countries have
followed: Denmark, Norway, Finland, Austria, Cyprus, Italy, Croatia,
Latvia, Germany, Bulgaria, Ukraine and Iceland. Leaders in these
countries concluded that the costs of corporal punishment were too high
for a society that called itself civilized.

Despite this wide consensus on the ills of corporal punishment, there is
scant sentiment for an anti-spanking movement among African Americans.
But that may be changing. Growing numbers of experts who focus on the
black community, are also raising questions about the high costs of
using physical violence to punish children. Dr. Alvin Poussaint, a
professor of psychiatry at Harvard Medical School who has written
extensively on African-American issues, has long opposed the use of
corporal punishment.

His major argument is simple: ?the use of corporal punishment teaches
children that violence is the way to solve problems.? Poussaint, who was
an adviser to the popular program ?The Cosby Show,? says corporal
punishment also has other harmful effects on the social life of the
black community.

At a recent forum on young black men, sponsored by the Washington Post
and the Kaiser Family Foundation, Poussaint fingered corporal punishment
as a factor in the disproportionate expulsions of black children from
pre-school programs, especially males. He said his research has found
that even preschool black males harbor a lot of anger.

?There?s an overuse of beating kids,? he said, breaking a major taboo
among black leadership by raising this issue. ?So that you have 80
percent of black parents believing you should beat them?beat the devil
out of them. And research shows the more you beat them, the angrier they
get.?

High levels of violent crime in black communities certainly reflect that
anger. According to figures from the Department of Justice?s Bureau of
Justice Statistics, African Americans were more likely than other
Americans to be both victims and perpetrators of violent crime.

In 2000, blacks were six times more likely than whites to be victims of
murder. They also were seven times more likely to be perpetrators. In
fact, for the last half-century blacks were homicide victims at least
five times more than whites were. Sometimes that rate reached more than
ten times the white rate.

Among the major reasons cited for this disparity are poverty,
segregation, media violence and the self-hatred inculcated by a white
supremacist culture. Some argue the problem is simply one of bad
behavior, abetted by black communities that deemphasize personal
responsibility and cultural standards.

There is a bit of truth in those explanations, but Poussaint?s
anti-spanking reasoning also makes sense. What doesn?t make sense is
that black leaders have yet to make the connection between high rates of
corporal punishment and high rates of interpersonal violence.

One reason for this reticence is the influence of the church. All
spanking advocates need to do is cite a biblical justification not to

--
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin (or someone else)





--
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin (or someone else)

Kane wrote
When you have lost you become more and more erratic and more and more
likely to point away from the facts of the issue, sometimes even the
issue itself, and not just divert, but divert with conclusions that do
not follow the evidence provided by you, or even by your opponent.

That summarizes how CPS agencies operate.

Greegor wrote:
Kane wrote
When you have lost you become more and more erratic and more and more
likely to point away from the facts of the issue, sometimes even the
issue itself, and not just divert, but divert with conclusions that do
not follow the evidence provided by you, or even by your opponent.

That summarizes how CPS agencies operate.

Your admission and confession are duly noted. chuckle

On 19 Sep 2006, 0:- wrote:


Greegor wrote:
Kane wrote
When you have lost you become more and more erratic and more and more
likely to point away from the facts of the issue, sometimes even the
issue itself, and not just divert, but divert with conclusions that do
not follow the evidence provided by you, or even by your opponent.

That summarizes how CPS agencies operate.

Your admission and confession are duly noted. chuckle

Your lies are duly notes. grin

AF

On Tue, 19 Sep 2006, 0:- wrote:

Doan wrote:

It's obvious!

What "it's" are you claiming?

Your lies! ;-)

Is anyone on this newsgroup actually believe him?

They don't have to "believe," they only have to read and comprehend.

Hihihi! Yup! Anyone here read and agree with Kane?

I doubt
it.

Well of course -- the never ending dilemma of the self deluding.

That would be yours! ;-)

You will believe what you want to believe, facts be damned.

That's you!

What is 'obvious' is that the research report you cite says "may be" not
"conclusively."

Hahaha! Find me one that is conclusive, Kane. Are you always this
STUPID?

Yet you are unable to respond to the International study LaVonne posted
a reference to, and I have again, and again, and again, that finds in
fact from a MUCH larger and more (six times more) diverse demographic
sample something to the contrary...that the more CP and the more severe
CP the more likelihood of negative outcomes. This sample also includes
black Africans. Though I don't hold with racial components being more
important than ethnicities or societies that differ. "Culture is the
Culprit" is a favorite saying of my old Anthro prof. You'd be surprised
to know who he or she was. I was in university in both the late 60's and
late 80's into the 90's. Guess where.

More lies!

What is also obvious, is that outside of the dim and nearly lifeless
poster or three no one is responding to your question.

But you are! Hihihi!

That would suggest either or both of the following to be true: they know
I'm right; also they know it is pointless to argue it with someone so
dishonorable and lying in your argument methods as you are.

Hahaha! Who here think that Kane is right? Please speak up!

When you have lost you become more and more erratic and more and more
likely to point away from the facts of the issue, sometimes even the
issue itself, and not just divert, but divert with conclusions that do
not follow the evidence provided by you, or even by your opponent.

Hihihi! An you are just STUPID!

You are one strange duck.

And you are just one plain STUPID LIAR! ;-)

AF

0:-


Doan


On 19 Sep 2006, Greegor wrote:

Way to go Doan!

Watch him try DENIAL, attack the sources, anything
to try to weasel out of acceptance!

He's like a CATHARTIC kid with oppositional defiant
disorder who just can't understand WHY you had the
nerve to SPANK him.



Doan wrote:
On Mon, 11 Sep 2006, 0:- wrote:

Doan wrote:
Hahaha! Kane is showing hist stupidity again. Any one who has read
the research on the effects of spanking on African American should know
that that, unlike white European American, spankings were associates with
lesser misbehavior and aggression. It is the lack of spanking that has
been shown, repeatedly, to be associates with higher misbehavior and
agression in the Black community.
Not so, monkeyboy. Prove your claim.

Hihihi! Here is a more recent study:

More study on the benefit of spanking on Black community.
"Regression slopes showed that the experience of physical discipline
at each time point was related to higher level of externalizing behaviors
for European American adlolescents but lower level of externalizing
behaviors for African American adolescents."

Sources:
Ethnic differences in the link between physical discipline and later
adolescent externalizing behaviors, Jennifer E. Lansford, Kirby
Deater-Deckard, Kenneth A. Dodge, John E. Bates, and Gregory S. Pettit
Journal of Child Psychology and Psychiatry (2004).

References:
Deater-Deckard, K., Bates, J.E., Dodge, K.A., Pettit, G.S. (1996).
Physical discipline among African American and European American mothers:
Links to children?s externalizing behaviors. Developmental Psychology,
32, 1065-1072.
R R R ....I notice you included NOTHING of their actual conclusions or
other significant portions of their research report...not even an
abstract. Tsk.

Let's see what it actually says, in the abstract, shall we eh?

Unlike you, who appear to be trying to conceal, as in LIE, I've even
provided the link:

Hihihi! The "never-spanked" boy tried his "formidable research skill"
again.

http://www.indiana.edu/~batessdl/cdp_abstracts.html#961

"1996

* Deater-Deckard, K., Dodge, K.A., Bates, J.E., & Pettit, G.S.
(1996). Physical discipline among African-American and European-American
mothers: Links to children's externalizing behaviors. Developmental
Psychology, 32, 1065-1072.

The aim of this study was to test whether the relation between
physical discipline and child aggression was moderated by ethnic-group
status. A sample of 466 European American and 100 African American
children from a broad range of socioeconomic levels were followed from
kindergarten through 3rd grade. Mothers reported their use of physical
discipline in interviews and questionnaires, and mothers, teachers, and
peers rated children's externalizing problems annually. The interaction
between ethnic status and discipline was significant for teacher- and
peer-rated externalizing scores; physical discipline was associated with
higher externalizing scores, but only among European American children.
These findings provide evidence that the link between physical
punishment and child aggression may be culturally specific. "

Now, Doan, The Monkeyboy, if they were as sure of YOUR claim as you seem
to be, why did they use the term, "may be" as in culturally specific?

Which part of "but only among European American children" don't you
understand?

You will notice, chuckle this was NOT an observational longitudinal
study, but a series of INTERVIEWS. The answered were scored.

Hihihi! Do you even understand what you are saying? Why don't you ask
your master LaVonne for a lesson in research methodology? STOP making
a fool of yourself, STUPID!

We can guess pretty well, given other studies of theirs, what that
socioeconomic levels were in the 100 AA families as compared to the Euro
Am families to the count of 466.

Hihihi! What a fool!

They didn't lie, but YOU most certainly did, or more likely are just
exhibiting your continuing stupidity and determined ignorance.

That you describing yourself! ;-)

You draw conclusions that to not follow from the source provided.

Hihihi! Which part of "but only among European American children" don't
you understand?

Try again, stupid monkeyboy.

Hihihi! Back to adhom again. How predictable you are!
I provided a link. I expect you to meet the same level of response.

I'll do better than that. I'll even provide the original source:

http://content.apa.org/journals/dev/32/6/1065

And you seem to be falling behind in your english comprehension classes
again.

Hihihi! Which par of "but only among European American children" don't
you understand, "never-spanked" boy?

The title of this article I provided isn't "research shows," it's, "Views"

Hahaha! That's a laugh! So you don't even have a research to back it up.

Native English speakers usually recognize that quickly as "Opinion" and
it was not offered under any other claim than "Argument" from my title.

Yup! "Opininion" is like an asshole; everybody got one! ;-)

Neither of the words related to research.

Hihihi! So you want provide "opinion" instead of facts!

As for the research you cite, but carefully don't link to, I'd like to
see the protocols for research, the methodology, if you will.

Look it up with your "formidable research skill"! ;-)

I'd like to see what YOU are calling "a lack of spanking." Lots of room
for abuse of the language and logic in that little phrase, monkeyboy.

Hihihi!

I note this is from a 1996 study.

Facts.

I quote an opinion from 2006.

vs. opinion.

He seems to disagree, as Black man, with the findings you have poorly
cited.

Hahaha! Do you even read what you wrote?

Many do, some very highly respected in the Black community and the
society at large, such as "Dr. Alvin Poussaint, a professor of
psychiatry at Harvard Medical School who has written extensively on
African-American issues, has long opposed the use of corporal punishment."

What research has he authored?

I presume he's tenured and a researcher.

Appealing to Authority. A logical flaw! ;-)

Apparently he and these other leading Black community members don't
agree with the claim YOU are claiming the study YOU have poorly cited is
making:

Opinion vs. facts! QED!

Doan

http://www.stophitting.com/disatschool/aaLeadsBanCP.php

The signed this statement and it's publicly posted, so they are
obviously willing to stand up and be counted.

And you will see people from many professions and followings such as
Christian churches included.

Your cause is corrupt, Doan. Worn out old ignorant superstition, not
scientifically supported, nor is it morally supported, even by those YOU
and a few other sycophants would like to claim spanking is good.

There is no justifiable reason for using corporal punishment to teach or
control a child. None.

And these Black leaders know it too.

Mr. Muwakkil is expressing a new sentiment that is rapidly taking hold.

Read it an weep, little apologist for the compulsives.

0:-

"No one knew 30 years ago how traumatic spanking was to a child's
psyche. You should avoid using physical force on your child."
.. DR. ALVIN POUSSAINT



Doan


On Sat, 9 Sep 2006, 0:- wrote:

... spanking, of course.

http://www.inthesetimes.com/site/main/article/2812/

Views September 8, 2006 Web Only
Corporal Punishment?s Hidden Costs
By Salim Muwakkil

If the civil rights community began a movement to discourage
corporal punishment among African Americans, I believe it would do more
to stem the tide of interpersonal violence than any other strategy.

An errant bullet hit the eye of a 12-year-old Chicago girl on August 27
but she survived. Earlier this year, stray bullets killed two girls in
separate incidents in the city?s Englewood neighborhood and triggered a
flurry of activity designed to address the chronic violence hammering
Chicago?s inner-city neighborhoods.

In black communities across the United States, concerned people are
gathering with increasing urgency, seeking solutions to rising rates of
violence.

Let me add one suggestion that is not likely to be raised at any of
these gatherings: Stop spanking your children.

If the civil rights community began a movement to discourage corporal
punishment among African-Americans, I believe it would do more to stem
the tide of interpersonal violence than any other strategy.

Experts are increasingly fingering corporal punishment?the infliction of
physical pain on the body of a child for purposes of punishment or
controlling behavior?as the culprit in a wide variety of social
dysfunctions. A host of relevant professional organizations, including
the American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Psychological
Association and the National Association of Social Workers have
published position papers opposing or strongly discouraging corporal
punishment of children.

International research on the deleterious effects of physical punishment
is so compelling that the United Nations has initiated a global program
to eliminate it. Not only is corporal punishment of children a violation
of human rights, the United Nations argued in a 2005 UNESCO publication,
that according to a preponderance of research, it is also
?counterproductive, relatively ineffective, dangerous and harmful.?

In 1979, Sweden became the first country in the world to ban all
corporal punishment of children. Twelve more European countries have
followed: Denmark, Norway, Finland, Austria, Cyprus, Italy, Croatia,
Latvia, Germany, Bulgaria, Ukraine and Iceland. Leaders in these
countries concluded that the costs of corporal punishment were too high
for a society that called itself civilized.

Despite this wide consensus on the ills of corporal punishment, there is
scant sentiment for an anti-spanking movement among African Americans.
But that may be changing. Growing numbers of experts who focus on the
black community, are also raising questions about the high costs of
using physical violence to punish children. Dr. Alvin Poussaint, a
professor of psychiatry at Harvard Medical School who has written
extensively on African-American issues, has long opposed the use of
corporal punishment.

His major argument is simple: ?the use of corporal punishment teaches
children that violence is the way to solve problems.? Poussaint, who was
an adviser to the popular program ?The Cosby Show,? says corporal
punishment also has other harmful effects on the social life of the
black community.

At a recent forum on young black men, sponsored by the Washington Post
and the Kaiser Family Foundation, Poussaint fingered corporal punishment
as a factor in the disproportionate expulsions of black children from
pre-school programs, especially males. He said his research has found
that even preschool black males harbor a lot of anger.

?There?s an overuse of beating kids,? he said, breaking a major taboo
among black leadership by raising this issue. ?So that you have 80
percent of black parents believing you should beat them?beat the devil
out of them. And research shows the more you beat them, the angrier they
get.?

High levels of violent crime in black communities certainly reflect that
anger. According to figures from the Department of Justice?s Bureau of
Justice Statistics, African Americans were more likely than other
Americans to be both victims and perpetrators of violent crime.

In 2000, blacks were six times more likely than whites to be victims of
murder. They also were seven times more likely to be perpetrators. In
fact, for the last half-century blacks were homicide victims at least
five times more than whites were. Sometimes that rate reached more than
ten times the white rate.

Among the major reasons cited for this disparity are poverty,
segregation, media violence and the self-hatred inculcated by a white
supremacist culture. Some argue the problem is simply one of bad
behavior, abetted by black communities that deemphasize personal
responsibility and cultural standards.

There is a bit of truth in those explanations, but Poussaint?s
anti-spanking reasoning also makes sense. What doesn?t make sense is
that black leaders have yet to make the connection between high rates of
corporal punishment and high rates of interpersonal violence.

One reason for this reticence is the influence of the church. All
spanking advocates need to do is cite a biblical justification not to

--
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin (or someone else)





--
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin (or someone else)

Doan wrote:
On Tue, 19 Sep 2006, 0:- wrote:

Doan wrote:
It's obvious!
What "it's" are you claiming?

Your lies! ;-)

Non sequitur

Is anyone on this newsgroup actually believe him?
They don't have to "believe," they only have to read and comprehend.

Hihihi! Yup! Anyone here read and agree with Kane?

Why must they agree with me, or not?

I don't expect everyone to agree with me. Perfectly honest, intelligent,
rational, and did I mention honest people, disagree with me, and they
can read.

Disagreeing isn't lying. Deliberate attempts to mislead, DOAN, are what
constitute lying.

I doubt
it.
Well of course -- the never ending dilemma of the self deluding.

That would be yours! ;-)

What's this, a "so's your Mother." ploy, yet again?


You will believe what you want to believe, facts be damned.

That's you!

What's this, a "so's your Mother." ploy, yet again?

What is 'obvious' is that the research report you cite says "may be" not
"conclusively."

Hahaha! Find me one that is conclusive, Kane. Are you always this
STUPID?

Ah, then you admit there is NO final answer to this question, as YOU
would like people to believe.

Thanks.

And no, I'm not stupid. YOU just walked into it though, stupid.

Yet you are unable to respond to the International study LaVonne posted
a reference to, and I have again, and again, and again, that finds in
fact from a MUCH larger and more (six times more) diverse demographic
sample something to the contrary...that the more CP and the more severe
CP the more likelihood of negative outcomes. This sample also includes
black Africans. Though I don't hold with racial components being more
important than ethnicities or societies that differ. "Culture is the
Culprit" is a favorite saying of my old Anthro prof. You'd be surprised
to know who he or she was. I was in university in both the late 60's and
late 80's into the 90's. Guess where.

More lies!

Hope. Not a single thing, including your inability to respond with any
kind of intelligent rebuttal to the international study stands as
fact...not lies or a lie.

That means YOU are lying, and attempting to mislead the reader, or you
are deluding yourself...a self directed lie.

What is also obvious, is that outside of the dim and nearly lifeless
poster or three no one is responding to your question.

But you are! Hihihi!

Nope. I'm not claim to have read and agree with myself. That would be
stupid. Obviously you are to think I have to do that.

That would suggest either or both of the following to be true: they know
I'm right; also they know it is pointless to argue it with someone so
dishonorable and lying in your argument methods as you are.

Hahaha! Who here think that Kane is right? Please speak up!

See what I mean. YOU didn't ask me. I'm not "anyone here" as I am the
subject of your question.

When you have lost you become more and more erratic and more and more
likely to point away from the facts of the issue, sometimes even the
issue itself, and not just divert, but divert with conclusions that do
not follow the evidence provided by you, or even by your opponent.

Hihihi! An you are just STUPID!

Nope. Do you really think anyone can't see how stupid you are?

You are one strange duck.

And you are just one plain STUPID LIAR! ;-)

I am a liar. Everyone is a liar. But I am not stupid.

I lie about certain specific and morally and ethically acceptable
things, just as other people do, and in my case for self and family
protection. Outside of that there is no motive for me to lie, nor do I
in this argument.

Claim you never lie. I want to see you lie again.

AF

0:-



0:-

Doan


On 19 Sep 2006, Greegor wrote:

Way to go Doan!

Watch him try DENIAL, attack the sources, anything
to try to weasel out of acceptance!

He's like a CATHARTIC kid with oppositional defiant
disorder who just can't understand WHY you had the
nerve to SPANK him.



Doan wrote:
On Mon, 11 Sep 2006, 0:- wrote:

Doan wrote:
Hahaha! Kane is showing hist stupidity again. Any one who has read
the research on the effects of spanking on African American should know
that that, unlike white European American, spankings were associates with
lesser misbehavior and aggression. It is the lack of spanking that has
been shown, repeatedly, to be associates with higher misbehavior and
agression in the Black community.
Not so, monkeyboy. Prove your claim.

Hihihi! Here is a more recent study:

More study on the benefit of spanking on Black community.
"Regression slopes showed that the experience of physical discipline
at each time point was related to higher level of externalizing behaviors
for European American adlolescents but lower level of externalizing
behaviors for African American adolescents."

Sources:
Ethnic differences in the link between physical discipline and later
adolescent externalizing behaviors, Jennifer E. Lansford, Kirby
Deater-Deckard, Kenneth A. Dodge, John E. Bates, and Gregory S. Pettit
Journal of Child Psychology and Psychiatry (2004).

References:
Deater-Deckard, K., Bates, J.E., Dodge, K.A., Pettit, G.S. (1996).
Physical discipline among African American and European American mothers:
Links to children?s externalizing behaviors. Developmental Psychology,
32, 1065-1072.
R R R ....I notice you included NOTHING of their actual conclusions or
other significant portions of their research report...not even an
abstract. Tsk.

Let's see what it actually says, in the abstract, shall we eh?

Unlike you, who appear to be trying to conceal, as in LIE, I've even
provided the link:

Hihihi! The "never-spanked" boy tried his "formidable research skill"
again.

http://www.indiana.edu/~batessdl/cdp_abstracts.html#961

"1996

* Deater-Deckard, K., Dodge, K.A., Bates, J.E., & Pettit, G.S.
(1996). Physical discipline among African-American and European-American
mothers: Links to children's externalizing behaviors. Developmental
Psychology, 32, 1065-1072.

The aim of this study was to test whether the relation between
physical discipline and child aggression was moderated by ethnic-group
status. A sample of 466 European American and 100 African American
children from a broad range of socioeconomic levels were followed from
kindergarten through 3rd grade. Mothers reported their use of physical
discipline in interviews and questionnaires, and mothers, teachers, and
peers rated children's externalizing problems annually. The interaction
between ethnic status and discipline was significant for teacher- and
peer-rated externalizing scores; physical discipline was associated with
higher externalizing scores, but only among European American children.
These findings provide evidence that the link between physical
punishment and child aggression may be culturally specific. "

Now, Doan, The Monkeyboy, if they were as sure of YOUR claim as you seem
to be, why did they use the term, "may be" as in culturally specific?

Which part of "but only among European American children" don't you
understand?

You will notice, chuckle this was NOT an observational longitudinal
study, but a series of INTERVIEWS. The answered were scored.

Hihihi! Do you even understand what you are saying? Why don't you ask
your master LaVonne for a lesson in research methodology? STOP making
a fool of yourself, STUPID!

We can guess pretty well, given other studies of theirs, what that
socioeconomic levels were in the 100 AA families as compared to the Euro
Am families to the count of 466.

Hihihi! What a fool!

They didn't lie, but YOU most certainly did, or more likely are just
exhibiting your continuing stupidity and determined ignorance.

That you describing yourself! ;-)

You draw conclusions that to not follow from the source provided.

Hihihi! Which part of "but only among European American children" don't
you understand?

Try again, stupid monkeyboy.

Hihihi! Back to adhom again. How predictable you are!
I provided a link. I expect you to meet the same level of response.

I'll do better than that. I'll even provide the original source:

http://content.apa.org/journals/dev/32/6/1065

And you seem to be falling behind in your english comprehension classes
again.

Hihihi! Which par of "but only among European American children" don't
you understand, "never-spanked" boy?

The title of this article I provided isn't "research shows," it's, "Views"

Hahaha! That's a laugh! So you don't even have a research to back it up.

Native English speakers usually recognize that quickly as "Opinion" and
it was not offered under any other claim than "Argument" from my title.

Yup! "Opininion" is like an asshole; everybody got one! ;-)

Neither of the words related to research.

Hihihi! So you want provide "opinion" instead of facts!

As for the research you cite, but carefully don't link to, I'd like to
see the protocols for research, the methodology, if you will.

Look it up with your "formidable research skill"! ;-)

I'd like to see what YOU are calling "a lack of spanking." Lots of room
for abuse of the language and logic in that little phrase, monkeyboy.

Hihihi!

I note this is from a 1996 study.

Facts.

I quote an opinion from 2006.

vs. opinion.

He seems to disagree, as Black man, with the findings you have poorly
cited.

Hahaha! Do you even read what you wrote?

Many do, some very highly respected in the Black community and the
society at large, such as "Dr. Alvin Poussaint, a professor of
psychiatry at Harvard Medical School who has written extensively on
African-American issues, has long opposed the use of corporal punishment."

What research has he authored?

I presume he's tenured and a researcher.

Appealing to Authority. A logical flaw! ;-)

Apparently he and these other leading Black community members don't
agree with the claim YOU are claiming the study YOU have poorly cited is
making:

Opinion vs. facts! QED!

Doan

http://www.stophitting.com/disatschool/aaLeadsBanCP.php

The signed this statement and it's publicly posted, so they are
obviously willing to stand up and be counted.

And you will see people from many professions and followings such as
Christian churches included.

Your cause is corrupt, Doan. Worn out old ignorant superstition, not
scientifically supported, nor is it morally supported, even by those YOU
and a few other sycophants would like to claim spanking is good.

There is no justifiable reason for using corporal punishment to teach or
control a child. None.

And these Black leaders know it too.

Mr. Muwakkil is expressing a new sentiment that is rapidly taking hold.

Read it an weep, little apologist for the compulsives.

0:-

"No one knew 30 years ago how traumatic spanking was to a child's
psyche. You should avoid using physical force on your child."
.. DR. ALVIN POUSSAINT



Doan


On Sat, 9 Sep 2006, 0:- wrote:

... spanking, of course.

http://www.inthesetimes.com/site/main/article/2812/

Views September 8, 2006 Web Only
Corporal Punishment?s Hidden Costs
By Salim Muwakkil

If the civil rights community began a movement to discourage
corporal punishment among African Americans, I believe it would do more
to stem the tide of interpersonal violence than any other strategy.

An errant bullet hit the eye of a 12-year-old Chicago girl on August 27
but she survived. Earlier this year, stray bullets killed two girls in
separate incidents in the city?s Englewood neighborhood and triggered a
flurry of activity designed to address the chronic violence hammering
Chicago?s inner-city neighborhoods.

In black communities across the United States, concerned people are
gathering with increasing urgency, seeking solutions to rising rates of
violence.

Let me add one suggestion that is not likely to be raised at any of
these gatherings: Stop spanking your children.

If the civil rights community began a movement to discourage corporal
punishment among African-Americans, I believe it would do more to stem
the tide of interpersonal violence than any other strategy.

Experts are increasingly fingering corporal punishment?the infliction of
physical pain on the body of a child for purposes of punishment or
controlling behavior?as the culprit in a wide variety of social
dysfunctions. A host of relevant professional organizations, including
the American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Psychological
Association and the National Association of Social Workers have
published position papers opposing or strongly discouraging corporal
punishment of children.

International research on the deleterious effects of physical punishment
is so compelling that the United Nations has initiated a global program
to eliminate it. Not only is corporal punishment of children a violation
of human rights, the United Nations argued in a 2005 UNESCO publication,
that according to a preponderance of research, it is also
?counterproductive, relatively ineffective, dangerous and harmful.?

In 1979, Sweden became the first country in the world to ban all
corporal punishment of children. Twelve more European countries have
followed: Denmark, Norway, Finland, Austria, Cyprus, Italy, Croatia,
Latvia, Germany, Bulgaria, Ukraine and Iceland. Leaders in these
countries concluded that the costs of corporal punishment were too high
for a society that called itself civilized.

Despite this wide consensus on the ills of corporal punishment, there is
scant sentiment for an anti-spanking movement among African Americans.
But that may be changing. Growing numbers of experts who focus on the
black community, are also raising questions about the high costs of
using physical violence to punish children. Dr. Alvin Poussaint, a
professor of psychiatry at Harvard Medical School who has written
extensively on African-American issues, has long opposed the use of
corporal punishment.

His major argument is simple: ?the use of corporal punishment teaches
children that violence is the way to solve problems.? Poussaint, who was
an adviser to the popular program ?The Cosby Show,? says corporal
punishment also has other harmful effects on the social life of the
black community.

At a recent forum on young black men, sponsored by the Washington Post
and the Kaiser Family Foundation, Poussaint fingered corporal punishment
as a factor in the disproportionate expulsions of black children from
pre-school programs, especially males. He said his research has found
that even preschool black males harbor a lot of anger.

?There?s an overuse of beating kids,? he said, breaking a major taboo
among black leadership by raising this issue. ?So that you have 80
percent of black parents believing you should beat them?beat the devil
out of them. And research shows the more you beat them, the angrier they
get.?

High levels of violent crime in black communities certainly reflect that
anger. According to figures from the Department of Justice?s Bureau of
Justice Statistics, African Americans were more likely than other
Americans to be both victims and perpetrators of violent crime.

In 2000, blacks were six times more likely than whites to be victims of
murder. They also were seven times more likely to be perpetrators. In
fact, for the last half-century blacks were homicide victims at least
five times more than whites were. Sometimes that rate reached more than
ten times the white rate.

Among the major reasons cited for this disparity are poverty,
segregation, media violence and the self-hatred inculcated by a white
supremacist culture. Some argue the problem is simply one of bad
behavior, abetted by black communities that deemphasize personal
responsibility and cultural standards.

There is a bit of truth in those explanations, but Poussaint?s
anti-spanking reasoning also makes sense. What doesn?t make sense is
that black leaders have yet to make the connection between high rates of
corporal punishment and high rates of interpersonal violence.

One reason for this reticence is the influence of the church. All
spanking advocates need to do is cite a biblical justification not to
--
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin (or someone else)


--
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin (or someone else)




--
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin (or someone else)

Kane wrote
I am a liar. Everyone is a liar. But I am not stupid.
I lie about certain specific and morally and ethically acceptable
things, just as other people do, and in my case for self and family
protection. Outside of that there is no motive for me to lie, nor do I
in this argument.
Claim you never lie. I want to see you lie again.
----------------------------------


Kane wrote
I lie about certain specific and morally and ethically acceptable things

Your intended ends justify any means, right?

I am greatly amused seeing you bend and twist ethics
to suit your agendas.

Greegor wrote:
Kane wrote
I am a liar. Everyone is a liar. But I am not stupid.
I lie about certain specific and morally and ethically acceptable
things, just as other people do, and in my case for self and family
protection. Outside of that there is no motive for me to lie, nor do I
in this argument.
Claim you never lie. I want to see you lie again.
----------------------------------


Kane wrote
I lie about certain specific and morally and ethically acceptable things

Your intended ends justify any means, right?

Oh, absolutely NOT. I would never lie about someone abusing a child, for
instance.

I would misinform, technically a lie, to protect that child if there
were no other way to do so, though. Wouldn't you?

If the child were threatened and the one threatening asked me for the
location of the child, or even if they didn't ask, I would never reveal
that child's location and I'd lie about it if I felt the need.

I am greatly amused seeing you bend and twist ethics
to suit your agendas.

You should be. You do it unethically, Greg. Not to protect anyone, but
to go for your goal of suing the people of the state of Iowa.

Are you amused at yourself?

I do not bend and twist ethics to suit my agendas, Greg.

If my agendas can't stand scrutiny as factual then I'll give them up
rather than lie.

You, on the other hand, and a few of your cronies seem to have a real
problem with this moral dilemma, but solve it easily by lying to
yourselves.

Where adequate proofs were provided, from authoritative sources, Greg,
you have never seen me defend CPS where it was wrong, or a worker that
was wrong.

Even in court case YOU have provided, often mistaking the findings for
being general when they were specific, have you seen me defend the LEs
and Workers involved and claim they were right?

But I've seen YOU defend criminals, Greg. Convicted ones.

Without adequate argument, Greg. Just your wild and fanciful imagination
and it's service to YOUR agenda.

0:-

--
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin (or someone else)