Meth: Hype Vs. Reality

Michael© wrote:
Pohaku Kane wrote:


You will see it as time passes and the media picks this up.

Sorry, Kane. I find 90% or greater of what the media reports as
consistently one-sided and formed mostly from opinions, not factual data
and verifiable sources.

Funny, you and your kind are quick to post what agrees with and supports
your nonsense without that kind of critical limits.

In fact, this thread started with an article that claimed that the
recognition of the growing threat of meth was simply "Hype."

Do you believe that article to be hype?

Or just the citation after citation I provide from people on the front
line of this monstrosity?

I didn't USE the media for support, Michael. I said you'd see it there,
knowing that you don't bother with more authenticated sources.


One study found that these children often stay in out-of-home
placement three times as long as other children. In addition, many of
these children have special needs. ... "

What study? What data were the above facts and figures pulled from?

Notice the quote marks? Since someone else said it, I cannot provide the
source. If you go to the citation I provided, if I did in that case,
then you can see who made the statement and ask them to provide evidence
by citing the study by name.

I can tell you with great confidence that you, a proven liar of little
to no ethics, will try to call my witnessing into question. When I
discuss these issues with the people at CARES, with those in pediatrics
and emergency room services, indeed there is a dramatic rise in the
numbers of abused, injured, neglected children that are in fact a result
of meth related activities of their parents.

If you choose not to believe me, AND you refuse to look for information
independently then I can presume you don't care about the issue and
accuracy, but simply have a desire to attack me for your silly personal
tender ego reasons.

That's fine. Just so long as you don't try, as you did with the CPS
client parent population, to pass yourself off as a source of reliable
information.


Which three 'mental health organizations'?

One private drug treatment facility (as most are), a VA affiliated
mental health center, and a county based mental health program that is
mostly state funded and administered.

In addition the principle presenter was head of a statewide prevention
program and the director of a large treatment program.

What prevention program and what large treatment program? What is his
name?

That is none of your business. Such people are easily found via google
and they all have much the same to say. You don't need my source to
varify the facts.

Or don't you know how to look up drug treament program names?

It's not like they don't serve to support my claim, IF you look at them:

http://tinyurl.com/ckme9

There, you see I've let you lead me around and exercise me. Does that
make your ego less tender after being caught and exposed as the little
mindless sock master moral pimple that you are?

Here, I'll do some more for you, so you can sit back, refuse to
recognize the problem and along with the other moral cretins such as
Doug, pretend it's all hype:

http://tinyurl.com/coaq5

What peer reviewed study did he use to come to this grim conclusion?
Or is this just his opinion?

He did not say. Are they that hard to find?

They must be if he didn't say.

I have found that people discussing these issues usaully don't stop to
see, "this was published in the journal of xxxxxx," when already
addressing in his audience, peers that have already seen and discussed
much of this before. He's aware that they, unlike you, already know they
can go back to the office and pick up the various professional journals
and check his points. He isn't going to stand up there and use up his
alloted time with a scientific debate more suited to other venues. He
came to do a job and was doing it.

If YOU don't believe what I've posted on the subject, feel free to find
counterarguments and you and I will do the scientific debate. I've
already posted a number of sources as evidence to the presentation
points I've shared with you.

And you are NOT addressing those, but instead insist on addressing what
you know can before my supporting evidence, as though I had provided none.

In other words, you are unethical in this as in so many things you do.

You asked in a prior post. I provide. Now deal with what I provided,
rather than continuing to ask the same question.

I was polite enough to just provide you with more. Dig into it, show me
how it is mistaken. Provide counter arguments, provide evidence to your
counter arguments, as I did to my counter arguments to the "It's All
Meth Hype" article.

You don't understand peer review, do you?

The people in that room were peers, some of whom had never met each
other before. I personally challenged a couple of the findings they
claimed. They were able, as the process works in peer review, able to
provide me with charts, tables, reports from other researchers, police
tabulations, or more with relatively convincing argument to support
their claims.

What reports from what researchers, which police data tabulations from
what year?

I already posted in reply to your last questions by posting such
information. And you ignore it.


I am giving it to this newsgroup in pieces, more digestible bites to
accommodate those few in this ng with minds too small to grasp more
than one fact presented per page.

Present me with the full girth, with citations so I may review the data
used. I will somehow manage to 'digest' it, you can continue to post it
in small bits for the more mentally challenged at your leisure.


Despite the certain risk of your confusion, I'll continue to go on and
answer your questions point by point when I have the answers
available. Where the info came from commentary, or the materials in
hard copy that I saw are not available electronically (and boy, did I
ask, knowing I was coming back to ditzes like you that don't want the
truth) I will look for other cooroborating sources for what I saw.

You don't need to look for 'corroborating' sources, I simply would like
a brief summary of the sources used, and I will take the responsibility
to find the full articles on my own time.

Certainly you have a handout/program from attending this conference that
has citations of the sources used.

I certainly do. And rather than identify the state, I've provided other
cooroboration evidence from other sources.

In fact I started off immediately with excellent sources including the
DOJ articles. Rather than respond to THEM, you immediately attacked and
ignored them insisting I was posting frivolously:

Here is our exchange where you ducked the content of the linked citation:

"
8. Michael©
Dec 7, 6:27 pm show options
Newsgroups: alt.support.child-protective-services
From: "Michael©" - Find messages by this
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Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2005 20:27:07 -0600
Local: Wed, Dec 7 2005 6:27 pm
Subject: Meth: Hype Vs. Reality
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Pohaku Kane wrote:
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/ovc/publica...ldren/pg5.html

Children Found in Meth Lab Homes

The living areas and physical condition of children found in two meth
lab homes are described below.

SNIP

And just what ****ing point are you repetitively trying to make? That
methamphetamine abuse is 'bad'? Most people know that.

Are you saying that these two cases embody the state of ALL children
that have a parent that uses methamphetamines? That would be a lie,
unless you can establish otherwise. "

I posted one small piece, a common practice rather than cutting and
pasting an entire webpage, this one four screens long, minimum.

Rather than respond to the rest of the LINKED citation, you chose to
question ONLY the part posted.

Care to respond to anything else on the page...in light of your stupid
response obviously trying to ignore it?

"

Dangers to Children Living at Meth Labs

A child living at a clandestine methamphetamine laboratory is exposed to
immediate dangers and to the ongoing effects of chemical contamination.
In addition, the child may be subjected to fires and explosions, abuse
and neglect, a hazardous lifestyle (including the presence of firearms),
social problems, and other risks.

Chemical contamination. The chemicals used to cook meth and the toxic
compounds and byproducts resulting from its manufacture produce toxic
fumes, vapors, and spills. A child living at a meth lab may inhale or
swallow toxic substances or inhale the secondhand smoke of adults who
are using meth; receive an injection or an accidental skin prick from
discarded needles or other drug paraphernalia; absorb methamphetamine
and other toxic substances through the skin following contact with
contaminated surfaces, clothing, or food; or become ill after directly
ingesting chemicals or an intermediate product. Exposure to low levels
of some meth ingredients may produce headache, nausea, dizziness, and
fatigue; exposure to high levels can produce shortness of breath,
coughing, chest pain, dizziness, lack of coordination, eye and tissue
irritation, chemical burns (to the skin, eyes, mouth, and nose), and
death. Corrosive substances may cause injury through inhalation or
contact with the skin. Solvents can irritate the skin, mucous membranes,
and respiratory tract and affect the central nervous system. Chronic
exposure to the chemicals typically used in meth manufacture may cause
cancer; damage the brain, liver, kidney, spleen, and immunologic system;
and result in birth defects.6 Normal cleaning will not remove
methamphetamine and some of the chemicals used to produce it. They may
remain on eating and cooking utensils, floors, countertops, and
absorbent materials. Toxic byproducts of meth manufacturing are often
improperly disposed outdoors, endangering children and others who live,
eat, play, or walk at or near the site.7

Fires and explosions. Approximately 15 percent of meth labs are
discovered as a result of a fire or explosion. Careless handling and
overheating of highly volatile hazardous chemicals and waste and unsafe
manufacturing methods cause solvents and other materials to burst into
flames or explode. Improperly labeled and incompatible chemicals are
often stored together, compounding the likelihood of fire and explosion.
Highly combustible materials left on stovetops, near ignition sources,
or on surfaces accessible to children can be easily ignited by a single
spark or cigarette ember. Hydrogenerators used in illegal drug
production “constitute bombs waiting to be ignited by a careless act.”8
Safety equipment is typically nonexistent or inadequate to protect a child.

Abuse and neglect. Children living at methamphetamine laboratories are
at increased risk for severe neglect and are more likely to be
physically and sexually abused by members of their own family and known
individuals at the site. Parents and caregivers who are meth dependent
typically become careless, irritable, and violent, often losing their
capacity to nurture their children. In these situations, the failure of
parents to protect their children’s safety and to provide for essential
food, dental and medical care (including immunizations, proper hygiene,
and grooming), and appropriate sleeping conditions is the norm. Older
siblings in these homes often assume the role of caretaker.9 Some
addicted parents fall into a deep sleep for days and cannot be awakened,
further increasing the likelihood that their children will be exposed to
toxic chemicals in their environment and to abusive acts committed by
the other drug-using individuals who are present. Children living at
meth lab sites may experience the added trauma of witnessing violence,
being forced to participate in violence, caring for an incapacitated or
injured parent or sibling, or watching the police arrest and remove a
parent.10

Hazardous lifestyle. Hazardous living conditions and filth are common in
meth lab homes. Explosives and booby traps (including trip wires, hidden
sticks with nails or spikes, and light switches or electrical appliances
wired to explosive devices) have been found at some meth lab sites.
Loaded guns and other weapons are usually present and often found in
easy-to-reach locations. Code violations and substandard housing
structures may also endanger children. They may be shocked or
electrocuted by exposed wires or as a result of unsafe electrical
equipment or practices. Poor ventilation, sometimes the result of
windows sealed or covered with aluminum foil to prevent telltale odors
from escaping, increases the possibility of combustion and the dangers
of inhaling toxic fumes. Meth homes also often lack heating, cooling,
legally provided electricity, running water, or refrigeration. Living
and play areas may be infested with rodents and insects, including
cockroaches, fleas, ticks, and lice. Individuals responding to some lab
sites have found hazardous waste products and rotten food on the ground,
used needles and condoms strewn about, and dirty clothes, dishes, and
garbage piled on floors and countertops. Toilets and bathtubs may be
backed up or unusable, sometimes because the cook has dumped corrosive
byproducts into the plumbing.11 (See Children Found in Meth Lab Homes.)

The inability of meth-dependent and meth-manufacturing parents to
function as competent caregivers increases the likelihood that a child
will be accidentally injured or will ingest drugs and poisonous
substances. Baby bottles may be stored among toxic chemicals. Hazardous
meth components may be stored in 2-liter soft drink bottles, fruit juice
bottles, and pitchers in food preparation areas or the refrigerator.
Ashtrays and drug paraphernalia (such as razor blades, syringes, and
pipes) are often found scattered within a child’s reach, sometimes even
in cribs. Infants are found with meth powder on their clothes, bare
feet, and toys. The health hazards in meth homes from unhygienic
conditions, needle sharing, and unprotected sexual activity may include
hepatitis A and C, E. coli, syphilis, and HIV.

Social problems. Children developing within the chaos, neglect, and
violence of a clandestine methamphetamine laboratory environment
experience stress and trauma that significantly affect their overall
safety and health, including their behavioral, emotional, and cognitive
functioning. They often exhibit low self-esteem, a sense of shame, and
poor social skills.12 Consequences may include emotional and mental
health problems, delinquency, teen pregnancy, school absenteeism and
failure, isolation, and poor peer relations. Without effective
intervention, many will imitate their parents and caretakers when they
themselves become adults, engaging in criminal or violent behavior,
inappropriate conduct, and alcohol and drug abuse.13

Many children who live in drug homes exhibit an attachment disorder,
which occurs when parents or caretakers fail to respond to an infant’s
basic needs or do so unpredictably. These children typically do not cry
or show emotion when separated from their parents. Symptoms of
attachment disorder include the inability to trust, form relationships,
and adapt. Attachment disorders place children at greater risk for later
criminal behavior and substance abuse. To minimize long-term damage,
children from these environments require mental health interventions and
stable, nurturing caregivers.

Other risks. Dangerous animals trained to protect illegal meth labs pose
added physical hazards, and their feces contribute to the filth in areas
where children play, sleep, and eat. Many children who live in meth
homes also are exposed to pornographic materials or overt sexual
activity. Others may actually be involved in the manufacturing process
but receive no safety gear to protect them from noxious chemical fumes.
"

Have a go.

For instance, I consider meth to be far more dangerous than cocaine,
and replacing it rapidly. I was provided a handout published by the X
State Police Crime Labs. (I will not tell you the state because you
will assume I live there, and might try to harm the family of someone
you thought was mine).

I can appreciate that YOU feel Methamphetamine is more dangerous, and I
would likely tend to agree with you, but what we feel won't convince
anyone without sources.

I have given ample sources. You are pretending I did not. One rarely
quotes entire webpages and web sites (I would be a little pointless to
give the link) without the expectation that if the opposing party really
means to debate they'll ignore the pages content.

You had to ignore the pages content to respond as you did. You KNEW
there was considerably more than just the story of two children.

Do you question anything in the rest of the pages cited?

Your assumptions are wrong, but nonetheless that is your call.
Unfortunately, 'X State Police Crime Labs' isn't very convincing as a
source.

No, such information is commonly available in other states. That states
particular crime lab reports, I am told, are not online.

You may believe what I cited or not. But you cannot claim my assumptions
are "wrong" unless you wish to provide some counter argument...even
unsourced materials and show WHY you believe mine are wrong.

You are perfectly capable of forming a search string like mine and
entering it into the field for a google search:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&l...rt&btnG=Search

The key word is "meth" of course, and crime lab submitted material is
called, in their jargon, "exhibit.'

Give it a try. Read up, get back to me.

Simply saying I'm wrong and providing no evidence yourself shows what
you are.

You believe you kicked MY ass? LOL. Okay.

Yes, and the entire M&M crowd. They have been posting to me personally
with rapid ranting blathering nonsense since I emailed them with an
invitation to explain how they could be other than you. Seems they
agree with me.

You think you are fooling anyone with the sock delusion? LOL.

I'm not attempting to fool anyone. I'm attempting to expose a fool. I did.

I am but I.

You are that.


You want to share the data you claim you received today?

Above you will find some of it. There is too much to see at once.

There is NEVER too much to see, except that which doesn't exist.

Why have you commented then on NOTHING I've submitted by cited link? You
didn't go look?

Are you saying that the only posting protocol you'll respond to without
claiming someone wrong or lying is full cut and paste of the entire
website?

Why would you do that, Michael, if that's what you intend?

Simply start commenting on what I have offered by linked citation.

So far you have not done so in this post.



Here's a few things.

X state's child protection services had contact with families where
meth was involved, everything from picking up acid burned positive
results for meth ingestion children, to having police deliver children
from labs they'd busted.


There we go with the 'X' state source again.

I told you why.

Absolutely useless as
anything but your propaganda.

No, I provided other sources. You simply will not go look because you
want clues as to where I have professional associates. I won't give you
that. Of course. You've proven with yhou behavior here what a thug you
are and I'll not subject my collegues to the risk of you ptting them on
your website where they cannot respond in kind and making claims about
them as you did Dan and myself.

You may use the full citations I do offer, or stick it up your ass for
all I care.

I post for others, in any case, not for you. You are my tool. If not
you, then someone else. If no one then simply posting the material. You
don't matter.

In other words, put up or shut up.

The instant I did you shut up. You have not responded to the linked
information.

Care to?

Your
excuse that someone may 'hurt' a family whilst looking for you if you
give a state name is ridiculous to say the least, and shows a great
paranoia on your part.

No it is not ridiculous when it comes to you. You have lied about and
attacked people in and on this ng and on your supercilious website. It's
plain you are vicious sociomisfit.

I posted URLs linking you right to information that corroborates what
I've claimed here was told to me. I don't have to prove it was told to
me or the source, since I provided evidence of it points and claims.
You just don't want to read them, so you attack my source.

In other words, rather than deal with the evidence I presented, you
pretend you are debating by running in little circles chasing your tail.

Now I have one for you, and your M&M brain trust. Do you think the
meth problem in this country is being responded to adequately to bring
it under control in a couple of years or so?

And do you think children are in fact being harmed in sufficient
numbers and with sufficient damages that protective services is going
to be able to provide services to them for rehab, for placement, for
saving their lives?

You may expect answers from me when you have answered mine seeking
sources for the data discussed at this conference.

No, I'll not give you the data from the conference, nor any names.

I invite you do argue with the material I have provided..the evidence
that what I told you here is substantially true.

You do not want to do that because you know you will be found wrong.

Or you'd engage that information.

You are doding to avoid it by insisting I give you what I already
clarified I would not. Name and locations of parties and agencies.

I hardly believe
that the entire conference was a large gathering of opinionated 'want to
be's' that came to this without sources of the hard data readily
available to other conference attendees after the conference had ended.

They had it. I have it. You may not have it.

There is even more in the sources I have provided.

My discussion of what I heard and saw and have on my desk is the motive
for pointing to the more readily available sources I've provided and you
are avoiding.

If you do not with to engage the sources I provided, fine. That's up to
you. My not giving you a particular personal set means nothing, other
than my meeting my obligations and responsibilites to keep little thugs
such as you away from collegues.

Find your own conference. Attend. Make a fool of yourself by trying to
play your games with them.

We are long past being fooled by you. I had your number about post
number three of yours to this ng.


Q{ } HO ho ho.


Yeah, Hoe Hoe Hoe to you too.

It's too cold and dark to garden right now. But come spring, yes,
thanks, I will hoe.

Here are some of the links you are avoiding discussion on:

http://www.drug-rehabilitation.com/methamphetamine.htm
" ... Drug abuse treatment admissions reported by the CEWG in June 2001
showed that methamphetamine remained the leading drug of abuse among
treatment clients in the San Diego area and Hawaii. Stimulants,
including methamphetamine, accounted for smaller percentages of
treatment admissions in other states and metropolitan areas of the West
(e.g., 9 percent in Los Angeles and Seattle and 8 percent in Texas). By
comparison, stimulants were the primary drugs of abuse in a smaller
percent of treatment admissions in most Eastern and Midwestern
metropolitan areas, such as Minneapolis-St. Paul and St. Louis, where
they accounted for approximately 3 percent of total admissions, or
Baltimore, where no stimulant-related treatment admissions were reported
in the first half of 2000. ... "

I give you the above, because it's 2001. Things changed drastically in
all areas. West to midwest as the years passed.

And you should ask yourself if parents with this going on would be good
company for a child:
"
What are the long-term
effects of methamphetamine abuse?

Long-term methamphetamine abuse results in many damaging effects,
including addiction. Addiction is a chronic, relapsing disease,
characterized by compulsive drug-seeking and drug use which is
accompanied by functional and molecular changes in the brain. In
addition to being addicted to methamphetamine, chronic methamphetamine
abusers exhibit symptoms that can include violent behavior, anxiety,
confusion, and insomnia. They also can display a number of psychotic
features, including paranoia, auditory hallucinations, mood
disturbances, and delusions (for example, the sensation of insects
creeping on the skin, which is called "formication"). The paranoia can
result in homicidal as well as suicidal thoughts.

With chronic use, tolerance for methamphetamine can develop. In an
effort to intensify the desired effects, users may take higher doses of
the drug, take it more frequently, or change their method of drug
intake. In some cases, abusers forego food and sleep while indulging in
a form of binging known as a "run," injecting as much as a gram of the
drug every 2 to 3 hours over several days until the user runs out of the
drug or is too disorganized to continue. Chronic abuse can lead to
psychotic behavior, characterized by intense paranoia, visual and
auditory hallucinations, and out-of-control rages that can be coupled
with extremely violent behavior."

And;

http://www.stopmethaddiction.com/meth-and-children.htm
Children of Meth Users

Children are particularly vulnerable to the health effects associated
with meth labs. Children are generally more at risk than adults to
environmental hazards because:

1. they have immature organ systems, faster metabolic rates, and
weaker immune systems
2. they eat more food, drink more fluids and breathe more air per
pound of body weight
3. they are less able to protect themselves
4. their behaviors (crawling, dirt eating, hand-to-mouth) expose
them to more hazards.

Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA) data showed that 30% of labs
nationwide, and 50% of Minnesota labs had children living in them at the
time of seizure. Illegal meth labs pose the greatest danger to children
living where drugs are made. Children in meth labs are exposed to the
highest levels of chemicals. They are at risk of explosion, fire,
chemical burns, and are often neglected and abused by drug-using parents.

When I challenged the presenters using their own displayed data on the
reduction of meth lab seizures, they just flipped to the next PowerPoint
slide...which made a claim that this shows is true (the slide said 90%
of meth in that county was now imported, where about 50% was formerly
manufactured)

http://news.minnesota.publicradio.or...tt_methupdate/
" ... And while Krueger says some people will do whatever it takes to
feed their addiction, he's confident Minnesota's new law will lower the
number of meth labs in the state.

Minnesota's law enforcement officials say that's already happening, and
point to dramatic figures as proof. According to the Minnesota
Department of Health, in 2004 there were about 500 meth labs seized in
the state. This year so far, that number is less than 100. Clear proof
to many that the law is doing its job.

But there's another reason those numbers are down. Fewer people are
making their own meth, because more is coming in from Mexico. "

This is likely, and I predicted this as well, true across the country.
The Superlabs are much more active now than a year or two ago...and
there already was a cocaine trail for the heroin cowboys and now the
Meth Superlab Caballeros to hit. It's 97 in our area and you know it. So
I know you are bull****ting for effect.

Weed
Klamath Falls
Bend
Goldendale
George
Yakima
Wenatchee
Chelan
Spokane

and various spots along 97 are easily reached by other two to fourlane
highways.
All the way to Canada.

A quick turn at 84 and Burns to Twinfalls opens up, or a left to the
Puget Sound area.

Meth labs are going to reduce...unless of course someone starts setting
up superlabs like the ones in mexico and s. california. I think they
will. The cops do too. The purchase of large amounts of the precursors
in bulk are going up across the country.

And while the labs may drop a bit in the west, look what's happening to
the midwest and reaching the east coast.

The Appalacians are a hotspot right now. Imagine. Generations of
moonshiners, with an infrastructure already in place. For over a hundred
years. They switched to Pot Grows on public lands, now....switching to
meth cooking. Smaller equipment. Cheap. Fast "brewing time" higher
return on the investment. What more could a ol' moonshining family want,
eh?

Oh wait, you don't have to imagine:
http://mjf.missouristate.edu/faculty...4/contents.htm
http://www.drug-rehabs.org/content.p...tate=Tennessee
http://www.memphisflyer.com/gyrobase...id=oid%3A10637
http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0321/p03s01-usju.html
" ... Still one of the biggest bottlers of illicit "moonshine" whiskey
in America, Johnston County now faces another sobering distinction: Over
$300,000 worth of a methamphetamine known as "crystal meth" was seized
here last year - the second-largest find in North Carolina.
.........photos...
But the stuff didn't come from big labs in California and Mexico. Using
readily available ingredients like Red Devil lye, ephedrine, and
phosphorous from match strikers, locals are now running thousands of
so-called "Beavis and Butthead" operations - small labs set up in
trailers, abandoned houses, even cars. ... "

That was 2003. Think they got it under control?

What are some of the problems?

http://www.uscourts.gov/ttb/july04ttb/addicts/

Well, maybe crime is one, eh?

So, take our pick, Michael, and the M&M Family.

Which of the many points I've made and provided support for do you wish
to discuss.

Or must I switch to my sheepskin slippers before you'll even consider
discussing it with me?

Michael your dodge is so common and unethical as to be laughable.

I don't have to give you anything for you to enter into a discussion, or
not. I've posted other information. Answer then.

YOU get to decide if you want to reveal, once again, what a dishonest
scumbag you are, by taking a dodge.

Must I also be freshly shaven?

Your Frangible Santa,

Q{ } Ho ho no.....


--
Michael Oobalewee