Do you support educational vouchers in schools?

Don wrote:
wrote
A $2,000 voucher at a school with $8,000 tuition is useless to a
family living in poverty but it is a free vacation to a wealthier
family that was otherwise going to pay the full $8,000.

What family pays $8k for a public school education?

That was a reference to private school tuition.

On Fri, 29 Apr 2005 09:21:27 -0400, Alan Lichtenstein
wrote:

wrote:

( previous post snipped,follow thread )

I would amend #2 in that the vouchers should ONLY go to low-income
families in public schools that are performing very poorly (all of
which would require significant degrees of clarification).

Racqueteer, I'm surprised at you. Are you intending to infer that there
are schools which do NOT teach the mandated curriculum, are staffed with
teachers who teach it an UNSATISFACTORY manner, and misspend tax levy
dollars?

Alan, it would not surprise me if there were, in fact, schools and
staff that would fall into this category. I certainly wouldn't assume
that none exist. If such DO exist, I would expect them to be found in
poor, inner-city, districts. I certainly do not think that they exist
generally, and I can't think of anyplace other than this where they
might be found (other than maybe some "holler" in rural Appalachia
somewhere).

That said, I believe that ultimate source of such a problem lies in
the student body (which reflects its environment, supervision, etc),
and can lead to kids who really want to do well being hindered by
those who don't give a crap. It's not so much a lack of trying on the
part of the school and staff, but one of being placed in an impossible
situation.

On Fri, 29 Apr 2005 02:49:39 GMT, "Don"
wrote:


wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 14:00:56 -0400, "George" george@least wrote:


Is the purpose education or indoctrination? The parent with a voucher
can
choose, the parent without cannot.

The "purpose" of what?

Is this what the public schools are producing?
I mean really.

Well gee, Don, the onus is on the poster to CLEARLY communicate. I
can't help it if you do a lousy job of communicating your thoughts, as
my ESP has weakened with age.

I noted the source of my confusion as you referenced both vouchers and
education in your statement. I also answered BOTH questions, so
should I assume that your request for the same thing AGAIN, is an
indication of lousy reading skills, lousy reading comprehension, or
just an inability to understand plain english?

Let me rewrite the question so that raqueteer can understand it:
"Is the purpose (of the public schools) education or indoctrination?

As I said previously, it is both, though the "purpose" has never been
clearly defined.

"Herman Rubin" wrote
Would allowing bright children to be allowed to work on their
own tie up resources? Would exempting children from being
placed in classes where they know the material do so? Many
of the things done in the past require few resources.

You're coming dangerously close to referencing Homeschooling.

"Bob LeChevalier" wrote
Herman Rubin) wrote:
As for the "public" deciding, there are many places in the
country where the voters would push for athletics, and let
academics go down.

And the voters have the right to do so, and they also have the right
to require that your kids attend those schools.

Nope. You don't get to require anything from someone else's kids.

Don't like it? Move somewhere else, or talk the voters into changing
their minds.

Can I require that YOUR kids become prostitutes?
No?
Then move elsewhere.

You see Bob, you get to control things in your own little sphere, but if you
attempt to control others you will be dispatched.
And if you don't like that, you can take your own advice. Move elsewhere.

Also, we have to question VERY seriously if there should be
publicly controlled education.

There is, because "we the people" have said that there should be.
That is the only excuse needed.

sigh
No *we* the people didn't say such a thing, Bob. You are flat out lying.
Are you a socialist?

"Bob LeChevalier" wrote
Herman Rubin) wrote:
Do you
mean that those in power should be able to compel a child
without the financial resources to be placed in classrooms
with others of vastly different ability?

They should, because the alternatives are worse (removing taxpayer
control of expenditures).

Taxpayer control?
You can't be serious.
If you are you better go climb back in the hole you've been living in for
the past, oh, 50 years or so.
A public education keeps costing more and more and the quality of what is
delivered is less and less.
Is THAT what you call taxpayer control, Bob?

"Banty" wrote
This works. There *is* choice. Vouchers are not about choice - they're
all
about money. They're about siphoning money to those who don't understand
that
public schools are for social, not necessarily individual, benefit.

There ya go, an admitted socialist.

In article t, Don says...


"Banty" wrote
This works. There *is* choice. Vouchers are not about choice - they're
all
about money. They're about siphoning money to those who don't understand
that
public schools are for social, not necessarily individual, benefit.

There ya go, an admitted socialist.



No, not really. And whatever label you want to throw around("socialist",
"LIEberal", "oogabooga"), it doesn't constitute a cogent argument.

I'm still waiting to hear how you're getting along with no roads and no fire
protection..

Cheers,
Banty the Oogabooga

"Herman Rubin" wrote
We have to import foreign students to get good degrees,
or to handle the "high-tech" jobs in computing. Graduate
schools often have to give American students two years to
catch up with what could be expected 30 years ago. The
situation is getting worse.

The first 2 years of college are routinely used for remedial education these
days.
And that is exactly what people like Bob LeChevalier, Banty and Raqueteer
want.
Having lost their individuality long ago, been sufficiently dumbed down,
they have been powerless all of their lives and wish for others to be
likewise.
They are violently jealous of those that have more than they, and will do
all they can (which isn't much, except run their yaps in USENET) to harm
children and their education.

Think about it, the public education process in the US is dismal and getting
worse everyday, no matter how much money is thrown at it. Why in the world
would anyone require kids, and in the case of Bob LeChevalier, other peoples
kids, to endure such a life damaging process?

Whats interesting in all of this is that those 3 folks, Bob, Banty and
Raquet, are victims of that which they wish for others. They have never
managed to break free from the brain numbing experience of public education,
have never *unlearned* and have simply parroted the same old broken
socialist mantra over an over.
Those three are woefully unequipped to do anything more than what they
presently do, harp the same ol', same ol'. Not much advancement there!

The fact is, that the public school system has been reduced to a state
funded day care center so that the average consumer can go to work and pay
his dues to the state and then go home and ignore his kids while he blobs
out on the couch with a bag of fried greasy poofs and a remote. THAT is the
future the Bobs, Banty's and Raquets lead and what they want for everyone
else.

When parents truly care about their kids, rather than paying whiney lip
service and little else, and decide that the quality of their kid's
education is *their* responsibility, not the states or the socialists, they
quickly find that Homeschooling is the only real alternative. Thats why 10's
of thousands of students are being witheld from the public farce each year
and the numbers are growing in leaps and bounds. Caring parents are making
their way *in spite* of the overbearing financial obstacle of paying for the
state daycare while additionally paying for their own kids education.

The very first thing the socialist whiners cry about are the sob lack of
social opportunities for the homeschoolers. As if the social opportunities
in the public schools are something to laud. Homeschoolers have far greater
social resources than is available to those kids trapped in the very narrow
scope of the public prisons. Besides, if the socialist whiners were focusing
on their own kids properly they'd have little time or resources to stick
their fat, pock marked noses into other people's business.

Homeschoolers are intellectually superior to their public counterparts, have
a much broader education than and are more emotionally stable than public
*students*, and able to interact on a broader scale than those condemned to
the public day care centers. When was the last time you heard of a homeshool
student shooting the teacher and 27 classmates? When was the last time you
heard of a homeschool teacher having sex with the school bus driver in the
parking lot of the mall? When was the last time you heard of the homeschool
teacher arrested for selling crack to supplement his/her low pay? When was
the last time you heard of the homeschool administrator siphoning public
funds to buy his vacation home in the Bahamas?

And by the way, homeschooling costs less than 10% of the public nightmare
and requires far less time on a daily basis.
Not only is the cost fractional but the money is well spent, by the very
people that have a vested interest in the outcome, the goal, rather than
faceless, non-caring bureaucrats downtown, or in distant cities whose only
role is to constantly grab more and more money from the public coffers.

Highschool education is not rocket surgery. Networking, the internet and
vast other resources are available at reasonable cost to assist the
homeschool teacher in providing an education far superior to anything
available anywhere in the public prisons.

These people, these socialists, especially the 3 I have mentioned, want to
mandate a fate worse than death to the people that should be considered the
most precious, your legacys, your namesakes, those that will be left behind
when you're gone. They are greedy and selfish and despicable and should be
eliminated immediately for they are a plague on the society and a blemish on
humanity.

The Bobs and Bantys and Raquets have been in at the helm for far too long,
look at the damage they have done to the public schools in the US and the
hardships their so called ideals have placed on the society. Enough is
enough.

Lets summarize:
1) Homeschooling provides a superior education and teaches kids to learn
throughout their lives.
2) Homeschooling can be done by anyone anywhere, no college degree required.
3) Homeschooling costs less than $800 per year per student (and sometimes
much less) and the quality of the materials and resources are better than
the worn out hand me down stuff in the public schools.
4) Homeschooled kids are much more emotionally stable than, and have a much
broader level of and better quality of social interaction with ther family,
friends and others.
5) Homeschooled kids are not exposed to the criminal element nor the misfits
of society that permeate the public death chambers. It is far better to
witness such things in the newspapers and websites than to have to
experience them in person day in and day out.
6) Homeschoolers are not religious or secular, as a group. It is an
individual choice made by the parents, rather than fat bureaucrats far away.

If you truly care about your kids, get them out of the nightmare they are
in, no matter what it takes.
Secondly, turn off the Bobs/Bantys/Raquets of the world, they are not worth
the time of day, except maybe as fertilizer.
Thirdly, arrange your affairs as YOU see fit and everyone else be damned.

Look, you only get one go this thing called life and it is way too short to
allow the Bobs/Bantys/Raquets to make demands on you.

Think for yourself, live your own life and provide for your kids.
Thats what its all about.

On Fri, 29 Apr 2005 23:47:08 GMT, "Don"
wrote:

Lets summarize:
1) Homeschooling provides a superior education and teaches kids to learn
throughout their lives.

For some homeschooled children this is true. OTOH, I know several who
were not and are not being educated at all through homeschooling.

One young man who was pulled out of school by his mother when he was
in 3rd grade lives on disability and welfare along with his family.
Mom works, no one else in the family does at present and he cannot get
a job despite the fact that he is intelligent mainly because he is
lacking in English skills and math skills. He was not being served
well by the public school he went to, but he certainly did not get a
better education at home.

Several children I know have returned to the public schools well
behind the norm for their age and the public schools then get the
blame for their lagging skills when it was the homeschooling that
did worse by them.

2) Homeschooling can be done by anyone anywhere, no college degree required.

It can be *done* but whether or not it can be done well is unknown,
since most people who are homeschooling in the US do have college
degrees and also have more money than the average family.

3) Homeschooling costs less than $800 per year per student (and sometimes
much less) and the quality of the materials and resources are better than
the worn out hand me down stuff in the public schools.

I don't know where you get these figures. One thing that you are
probably leaving out is the parents who haven't enough income to
survive with only one parent working. The cost to the family of that
parent staying home to homeschool must be taken into account *or*
if you insist on homeschooling in the evening, then you still have a
cost of childcare in the home which is more expensive to the parent
than having the child in a public school.

4) Homeschooled kids are much more emotionally stable than, and have a much
broader level of and better quality of social interaction with ther family,
friends and others.

Once again, while I think some homeschooled children are, there is a
large range here.

At least one young woman I know who was homeschooled had no friends
outside her family at all and I would say that her quality of
interaction with those of us who know her was much worse than the
quality of interaction of the average students I had in my school.

This is anecdotal and only a few students I know, but it still goes to
the heart of the problem.

5) Homeschooled kids are not exposed to the criminal element nor the misfits
of society that permeate the public death chambers. It is far better to
witness such things in the newspapers and websites than to have to
experience them in person day in and day out.

Ah, yes, exposure to the *misfits.* Why don't you just say you don't
want your child exposed to anyone who is the least bit different from
yourself and your family. IOW, no one of a different religion or a
different race should come near you. That certainly will keep you
ready to work in a highly competitive world market when you grow up.

We need to solve the problems of our society including those which
create criminals and misfits. Locking yourself away in an armed
enclave will simply create more problems.

6) Homeschoolers are not religious or secular, as a group. It is an
individual choice made by the parents, rather than fat bureaucrats far away.

I tend to agree that some homeschoolers are secular and some are
religious. But it is also true that homeschooling succeeds only in
certain circumstances with certain children and certain parents. Not
everyone is temperamentally suited to homeschool and not every
child will benefit as you seem to think they will.

Right now, homeschooled children are a privileged class. Do you
really believe that a mother living in the projects can homeschool her
children? Would you deny her children a chance to get out of the
projects through an education provided for him or her by our society
because *you* can homeschool your kids and keep them away from
those *horrible* other kids? The thing is that none of those kids
were born bad and none of them deserve to be treated as if they
were. We must solve the problem of the environment they live in
*and* educate them to a level where they can become productive
citizens. We cannot simply ignore them.

Btw, you mention the business of teachers sexually assaulting
students.

This is one of my *children* who was pulled out of school and her
father is currently in jail for molesting her. No, it's not the norm,
but neither is it the norm for teachers to molest kids. Her website
is no longer active, but some of her poetry might give you the
idea of what she went through. All I can say is I am glad she is
out of that home and no longer being *homeschooled* given what
she was taught.

http://www.angelfire.com/zine/silencedchild/


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits