Do you support educational vouchers in schools?

On 31 Mar 2005 13:44:32 -0500, (Herman
Rubin) wrote:

In article , Rumpty wrote:
The ones who need the better schools need to be removed from
the public schools and taught sound subject matter by those
who understand this, and not warehoused with their "peers".

That's an issue that needs to be addressed to the local school board who has
control over the students.

The local school board has much less control than most
seem to think. Its members are "extra time", which means
that they are full-time otherwise, and they have all their
meetings taken up with the current administration of the
schools. Matters such as parking, allocation of the budget,
and others like that are all they can manage.

In general the school board hires the principals and administrators
where I come from. Thus they have plenty of control if they want it.

In addition, few of the school administrators in the country
are at all sympathetic to teaching subject matter instead of
their theories of socializing, and not too many of the teachers
understand their subjects.

..................

--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

"Herman Rubin" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Banty wrote:
In article , Herman Rubin says...

In article ,
enigma wrote:
"Bob Coleslaw" wrote in
:

Is it better for the government to give out vouchers so
parents can send their kids to private schools, or to use
that money to fix up the public schools?

vouchers are a really bad idea. i do NOT want my tax dollars
used to fund any type of private school, especially not any
flavor of parochial school.
i have no issues with private schools, my kid attends one,
but i want my taxes to fix the public schools for the kids who
can't go to private school for whatever reason.
vouchers may help the elite, but they'll hurt the kids who
need better schools the most.
lee

At this time, NO student who is capable of getting a good
degree in mathematics or science or engineering or
agriculture or economics is getting even a fair high school
education corresponding to his abilities.

The ones who need the better schools need to be removed from
the public schools and taught sound subject matter by those
who understand this, and not warehoused with their "peers".

And vouchers will do - what - - exactly - to fix this?

Vouchers will enable the establishment of academic
private educational opportunities, which are extremely
rare at this time.

The nationally recognized academic private school that
I attended was about as traditional as they come. And they
staff scoffed at certain local public school reforms, like
ability-grouped K-4 classes, with age not taken into
consideration.

The public schools are not REQUIRED to place students
by age, or to have them in the same grade in every
subject. But they are not really prepared for any
alternative, both academically and sociologically.

Private schools aren't either.


P. Tierney

"toto" wrote in message
...
On 31 Mar 2005 13:44:32 -0500, (Herman
Rubin) wrote:

In article , Rumpty
wrote:
The ones who need the better schools need to be removed from
the public schools and taught sound subject matter by those
who understand this, and not warehoused with their "peers".

That's an issue that needs to be addressed to the local school board who
has
control over the students.

The local school board has much less control than most
seem to think. Its members are "extra time", which means
that they are full-time otherwise, and they have all their
meetings taken up with the current administration of the
schools. Matters such as parking, allocation of the budget,
and others like that are all they can manage.

In general the school board hires the principals and administrators
where I come from. Thus they have plenty of control if they want it.

Ours has no say, and very little overall power in hiring beyond
the superintendent. The individual school site-based committees
pick their own principal and administrators, assuming they passed
the screening interviews of the superintendent. The school board
has no say at all (and they don't like it, I might add).


P. Tierney

In article , Herman Rubin says...

In article ,
Banty wrote:
In article , Herman Rubin says...

In article ,
enigma wrote:
"Bob Coleslaw" wrote in
:

Is it better for the government to give out vouchers so
parents can send their kids to private schools, or to use
that money to fix up the public schools?

vouchers are a really bad idea. i do NOT want my tax dollars
used to fund any type of private school, especially not any
flavor of parochial school.
i have no issues with private schools, my kid attends one,
but i want my taxes to fix the public schools for the kids who
can't go to private school for whatever reason.
vouchers may help the elite, but they'll hurt the kids who
need better schools the most.
lee

At this time, NO student who is capable of getting a good
degree in mathematics or science or engineering or
agriculture or economics is getting even a fair high school
education corresponding to his abilities.

The ones who need the better schools need to be removed from
the public schools and taught sound subject matter by those
who understand this, and not warehoused with their "peers".

And vouchers will do - what - - exactly - to fix this?

Vouchers will enable the establishment of academic
private educational opportunities, which are extremely
rare at this time. Vouchers will not remove the money
from the public schools for those who continue, and
most will continue.

Voucher money would come from exactly where, do you think??


The public schools are not REQUIRED to place students
by age, or to have them in the same grade in every
subject. But they are not really prepared for any
alternative, both academically and sociologically.
Charter schools, in general, are restricted to the
"grade" system, and in fact even the size of desks
and chairs is state regulated for them.

Neither are private schools.

You still haven't answered the questions. Or, yours is a 'field of dreams'
answer - have money available by voucher, and Your Wished For School Will Come.
You have neither established that private schools would do what you would like,
nor that public schools could not be reformed.


I am sure that there will be a large need for students
to attend classes electronically; I would not be
surprised if this is where we will have to go for
most academic subjects. One size, or even a few
sizes, do not fit all.


Solitary learning does not fit many students, either. Few students and families
would have the discipline and environment to pursue basic education in this
manner.

I haven't read much of your stuff, but from your recent posts here in misc.kids
it strikes me that your reasoning is that, because the public schools did not
maximize learning for a particularly mathematically gifted student, therefore
the public schools are useless. Which is ludicrous. There is nothing in public
school attendance that precludes independant study (I pursued independant study
on advanced topics in public high school) or pursuing knowledge in other venues.
It does not preclude the formation of private schools - there are many private
schools alongside the public school system. Furthermore, that the pubic schools
not fit the needs of the three-sigma most intelligent students perfectly, does
not mean they don't fulfill the societal function of creating an educated public
at large - the benefit that the public at large (NOT parents specifically)
obtain from their funding the public schools.

Banty

"P. Tierney" wrote in
news:8663e.123250$r55.48940@attbi_s52:


"Herman Rubin" wrote in
message ...
Vouchers will enable the establishment of academic
private educational opportunities, which are extremely
rare at this time.

The nationally recognized academic private school that
I attended was about as traditional as they come. And they
staff scoffed at certain local public school reforms, like
ability-grouped K-4 classes, with age not taken into
consideration.

from what i've seen, those nationally recognised private
schools (charter schools?) are mostly worse than public
school. i'm suspect of anything like that because they're
corporate. coroporations are all about making money for thier
stockholders. keeping a bottom line is not conducive to a good
education...

The public schools are not REQUIRED to place students
by age, or to have them in the same grade in every
subject. But they are not really prepared for any
alternative, both academically and sociologically.

Private schools aren't either.

depends on the private school. Montessori schools have kids
in groups: pre-k/K (3-6ish), lower elementary (6-9ish), upper
elementary (9-12ish). the school Boo attends allows crossovers
if a kid is advanced or behind in subjects.
the Waldorf schools i've looked into have 3-6s in one group,
then one teacher that takes the kids from 1st to 8th grade (so
they have the same teacher for 8 years).
i see both these models having *huge* advantages over how
public school work, but i don't see anyone suggesting these as
possible 'reforms' to public schools.
lee

In article ,
toto wrote:
On 31 Mar 2005 14:35:44 -0500, (Herman
Rubin) wrote:

Unless we can make it very expensive for teachers and
administrators to ever hold a child back because of age,
and make "No child left behind" to mean "no child left
behind what that child can accomplish", there is no
hope for the public schools. The differences in mental
abilities dwarfs those in physical abilities.

I want you to pay damages to all those graduate students who
failed to learn anything in your classes, Herman.

Converted to the public school model, you would have teachers
pay damages to those whose mental abilities were not up to
being able to learn, or who for some other reason, did not
learn. A teacher can only supply the opportunity and SOME
help, not guarantee learning, as you are hinting.

I was criticizing the teachers who put obstacles in the
path of learning, not those who did not succeed with all.
I always expect the background with little review, and
will not use anything not supposed for the course without
careful explanation. And I will not leave anything out
because of "lack of time".

As for holding a student back, I have never done that.
Nor have I not allowed a student to take a course because
of not having the formal prerequisites, although I have
advised students, after careful discussion, that I thought
they were not sufficiently advanced for the course. Read
what I was saying.
--
This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views
are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University
Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558

In article ,
toto wrote:
On 31 Mar 2005 13:44:32 -0500, (Herman
Rubin) wrote:

In article , Rumpty wrote:
The ones who need the better schools need to be removed from
the public schools and taught sound subject matter by those
who understand this, and not warehoused with their "peers".

That's an issue that needs to be addressed to the local school board who has
control over the students.

The local school board has much less control than most
seem to think. Its members are "extra time", which means
that they are full-time otherwise, and they have all their
meetings taken up with the current administration of the
schools. Matters such as parking, allocation of the budget,
and others like that are all they can manage.

In general the school board hires the principals and administrators
where I come from. Thus they have plenty of control if they want it.

You are correct. But see the next paragraph to see the
problems there.

In addition, few of the school administrators in the country
are at all sympathetic to teaching subject matter instead of
their theories of socializing, and not too many of the teachers
understand their subjects.

..................
--
This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views
are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University
Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558

In article 8663e.123250$r55.48940@attbi_s52,
P. Tierney wrote:

"Herman Rubin" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Banty wrote:
In article , Herman Rubin says...

In article ,
enigma wrote:
"Bob Coleslaw" wrote in
:

....................

The ones who need the better schools need to be removed from
the public schools and taught sound subject matter by those
who understand this, and not warehoused with their "peers".

And vouchers will do - what - - exactly - to fix this?

Vouchers will enable the establishment of academic
private educational opportunities, which are extremely
rare at this time.

The nationally recognized academic private school that
I attended was about as traditional as they come. And they
staff scoffed at certain local public school reforms, like
ability-grouped K-4 classes, with age not taken into
consideration.

What happens to a student who passes the "4" level
in some subject at age 6?

Nationally recognized by whom? If it is an organization of
teachers and schools of education, it is recognizing trivia
instead of substance.

An academic school will not have a child in a "class"
for all subjects. I am more and more questioning
whether an academic "school" will even be a school
as is usually understood.

The public schools are not REQUIRED to place students
by age, or to have them in the same grade in every
subject. But they are not really prepared for any
alternative, both academically and sociologically.

Private schools aren't either.

And the few academic ones do not.



--
This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views
are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University
Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558

In article ,
Banty wrote:
In article , Herman Rubin says...

In article ,
Banty wrote:
In article , Herman Rubin says...

In article ,
enigma wrote:
"Bob Coleslaw" wrote in
:

Is it better for the government to give out vouchers so
parents can send their kids to private schools, or to use
that money to fix up the public schools?

..................

At this time, NO student who is capable of getting a good
degree in mathematics or science or engineering or
agriculture or economics is getting even a fair high school
education corresponding to his abilities.

The ones who need the better schools need to be removed from
the public schools and taught sound subject matter by those
who understand this, and not warehoused with their "peers".

And vouchers will do - what - - exactly - to fix this?

Vouchers will enable the establishment of academic
private educational opportunities, which are extremely
rare at this time. Vouchers will not remove the money
from the public schools for those who continue, and
most will continue.

Voucher money would come from exactly where, do you think??

I do not believe that any voucher proponent has suggested
that the amount of the voucher be more than the amount
being spent on that student in the public schools. Many
have suggested only half, which would leave more per pupil
for the public schools.

The public schools are not REQUIRED to place students
by age, or to have them in the same grade in every
subject. But they are not really prepared for any
alternative, both academically and sociologically.
Charter schools, in general, are restricted to the
"grade" system, and in fact even the size of desks
and chairs is state regulated for them.

Neither are private schools.

The ACADEMIC private schools do not; most do not fall
in this category.

You still haven't answered the questions. Or, yours is a 'field of dreams'
answer - have money available by voucher, and Your Wished For School Will Come.
You have neither established that private schools would do what you would like,
nor that public schools could not be reformed.

For the public schools to be reformed, it will take a
full generation to remove the staff which is committed
to socialization, as well as those who can no longer
understand the concepts the children should learn, and
can if they are not dumbed down by the present schools.

I am sure that there will be a large need for students
to attend classes electronically; I would not be
surprised if this is where we will have to go for
most academic subjects. One size, or even a few
sizes, do not fit all.

Solitary learning does not fit many students, either. Few students and families
would have the discipline and environment to pursue basic education in this
manner.

I said NOTHING about solitary learning; a class does not
have to have physical proximity to have discussions and
questions, students being called upon, etc. This does
not mean that solitary learning is prohibited; much can,
and will, be done that way. What is important is that
those who can learn quickly are allowed to do so, and
those who need much longer are allowed to do it that way.

I haven't read much of your stuff, but from your recent posts here in misc.kids
it strikes me that your reasoning is that, because the public schools did not
maximize learning for a particularly mathematically gifted student, therefore
the public schools are useless. Which is ludicrous. There is nothing in public
school attendance that precludes independant study (I pursued independant study
on advanced topics in public high school) or pursuing knowledge in other venues.

Not just one, and BTW the first school he attended tried
to do it from the beginning. There are reasons why it
did not work. But the others were not even willing to
cooperate. That school suggested an academic private
school, but one could not be found.

High school is MUCH too late; it takes great ability not
to be too badly damaged by then. I stated that those who
are capable of a good college program in mathematics or
science be doing that, and not the current stuff, by the
age they now are allowed to start high school. I believe
that most in the other fields can do this as well. Just
as in college, children should be taking individual courses
at their levels from the very beginning.

It does not preclude the formation of private schools - there are many private
schools alongside the public school system. Furthermore, that the pubic schools
not fit the needs of the three-sigma most intelligent students perfectly, does
not mean they don't fulfill the societal function of creating an educated public
at large - the benefit that the public at large (NOT parents specifically)
obtain from their funding the public schools.

My guess is that 1/3 of those capable of a good college
program, at least, are unable to do it because of the
bad elementary and secondary education now imposed on
them, and that the rest have lost 4-8 years of productive
life, and possibly a good part of their abilities, because
of this. Can we as a nation afford this?

Meanwhile, the colleges have been dumbed down; the students
demand being taught as they were in high school, and teachers
who attempt to teach "why" are hated, especially by service
students. I cannot trust that any of the important "abstract"
mathematics courses from an American university covered any
of the important ideas in those subjects. THESE should not
be in senior-level courses, but in elementary and high school
for anyone who can learn them.

It is not three sigma, but one sigma or more who are getting
the shaft by our schools, in a hopeless attempt to get all
to achieve what they are supposed to be getting. Also, a
one sigma overall student may well be two sigma in a subject,
and this means that the progress in that subject should be
rapid. Another problem is that the attempt to teach those
with little mental ability has removed the structure and
concepts, which is another substantial loss of time, even if
the concepts can be learned later, which is by no means obvious.





--
This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views
are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University
Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558

rec.wookdworking deleted as this thread is irrelevant there.

On 1 Apr 2005 12:26:29 -0500, (Herman
Rubin) wrote:

In article ,
toto wrote:
On 31 Mar 2005 14:35:44 -0500, (Herman
Rubin) wrote:

Unless we can make it very expensive for teachers and
administrators to ever hold a child back because of age,
and make "No child left behind" to mean "no child left
behind what that child can accomplish", there is no
hope for the public schools. The differences in mental
abilities dwarfs those in physical abilities.

I want you to pay damages to all those graduate students who
failed to learn anything in your classes, Herman.

Converted to the public school model, you would have teachers
pay damages to those whose mental abilities were not up to
being able to learn, or who for some other reason, did not
learn. A teacher can only supply the opportunity and SOME
help, not guarantee learning, as you are hinting.

Which *is* what you advocate. Public school teachers cannot
pick their students.

I was criticizing the teachers who put obstacles in the
path of learning, not those who did not succeed with all.
I always expect the background with little review, and
will not use anything not supposed for the course without
careful explanation. And I will not leave anything out
because of "lack of time".

Unfortunately, public school teachers are constrained by
the fact that they cannot change the curriculum they teach
since it is not their perogative to do so. The administration
expects them to teach the curriculum in the given time.
If kids are not ready, too bad.

As for holding a student back, I have never done that.
Nor have I not allowed a student to take a course because
of not having the formal prerequisites, although I have
advised students, after careful discussion, that I thought
they were not sufficiently advanced for the course. Read
what I was saying.

And?

I had kids in my geometry classes who did not pass Algebra I
which was a prerequisite for the geometry course as taught.
And, of course, kids who got Ds were most likely not going to
do very well either. In high school, we had plenty of kids who
came up to high school without the concepts they needed to
succeed in any of the math courses they were required to take.
It's not a matter of *formal* prerequisites though, it is a matter
of mastery of previous concepts so they can move on.



--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits