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#21
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Child Support - When Does Child Support End?
-- [Any man that's good enough to support a child is good enough to have custody of such child] "teachrmama" wrote in message ... "Paula" wrote in message ... On Nov 21, 1:35 am, "teachrmama" wrote: What I find disgusting about it is that the advocates for the lifestyle of the children have such a narrow view. Nobody else counts--just the specific children considered by the CS order. No other human beinf breathing air makes any difference compared the need for a lifestyle for that child. Witness those advocating sports and school pictures Do you just make this stuff up?!? Or do you intentionally exagerate? No, I don NOT make it up. The advocates for lifestyle CS, rather than basic needs CS, say that the chuld of the order has a right to a specific lifestyle. You do understand that that is what the system says, right? Think about it, Paula. Nobody came to me and told me that my children "had a right to" after school sports and that I had better pony up and provide them. But they did figure an amount for such things into the CS they charge my husband for his oldest daughter. Because she "has a right to" such things. Try it this way. If I handed you a stack of pictures of children and asked you to divide them into piles: Those who have a right to after school sports and those who do not, what would you do? Would you be able to do it? I wouldn't. But the system does. If I handed you a stack of pictures individuals, of men, women, and children, and asked you to divide them into piles by priority, of those who deserve a warm, comfortable place to live, food to eat, and clothing to wear, how would you divide them? If, in my classroom, I treated all girls as good, unless they did something extremely bad, and all boys as misvhievous, unless they did somethign extremely good, would you want your child in my classroom? But that is what the system does. "NCPs need to be forced, because they *will not* do the right thing otherwise." Most of the children in my classroom are well behaved, some need just a bit of guidance, and very few need sterner discipline. Adults are the same way. The above is precisely why there ought to be NO "child support" industry.......... NONE! The idea of CP/NCP should also be tossed in the trash. Both setups are nothing more than a breeding ground for injustices and corruption. They serve absolutely NO other purpose. |
#23
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Child Support - When Does Child Support End?
"Sarah Gray" wrote in message . 33.102... "DB" wrote in : "Sarah Gray" wrote in Why? Don't *all* parents have the obligation to support their children? No, not if they are forced into parenthood with zero choices!!!!!!!!!!!!1 To say that *all* unmarried fathers would abandon their children if given the opportunity is doing them a great disservice. That argument works for married fathers, too, you know. With the laws as they are now, *no* man has any choice over whether he becomes a father, at least not post-conception. Of course there should be choices. But right now there are not any choices for the men. Of the man chooses fatherhood, and marriage is not an option for whatever reason, then 50/50 joint custody should be the default. |
#24
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Child Support - When Does Child Support End?
"teachrmama" wrote in
: "Sarah Gray" wrote in message . 33.102... "DB" wrote in : "Sarah Gray" wrote in Why? Don't *all* parents have the obligation to support their children? No, not if they are forced into parenthood with zero choices!!!!!!!!!!!!1 To say that *all* unmarried fathers would abandon their children if given the opportunity is doing them a great disservice. That argument works for married fathers, too, you know. With the laws as they are now, *no* man has any choice over whether he becomes a father, at least not post-conception. Of course there should be choices. But right now there are not any choices for the men. Of the man chooses fatherhood, and marriage is not an option for whatever reason, then 50/50 joint custody should be the default. Oh, I agree completely with that. I just don't hang with the idea that because men have a raw deal vis a vis choice and custody, that they should have less responsibility towards their children. |
#25
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Child Support - When Does Child Support End?
"teachrmama" wrote in
: "Sarah Gray" wrote in message . 33.102... "teachrmama" wrote in : "Chris" wrote in message ... -- [Any man that's good enough to support a child is good enough to have custody of such child] "teachrmama" wrote in message ... "Paula" wrote in message news:7f5aef0e-591b-437d-b0b5-f971ff998312 @c30g2000hsa.googlegroups.co m... On Nov 20, 5:21 pm, "teachrmama" wrote: "Paula" wrote in message news:ad17acb7-2eea-49c3-95a3- ... On Nov 20, 10:32 am, "Gini" wrote: Actually, parents can still be financially responsible after their rights are terminated. I hope you're not a lawyer. Can you provide more information regarding this? I know that I've seen techrmama say that her DH's rights were terminated prior to even being aware of his daughter and that he's still been ordered to pay support. I realize that the logic of the State is often illogical, but this just really doesn't wash ... how does this happen? It's an honest question, and I'm not looking to argue ... so please hold the flames. Thanks! His rights were terminated because he was not in the child's life--I don't know what the logic behind termination the rights of a man who did not even know he was a father was. Exactly ... none of it seems logical. If he didn't know how could he provide support (either by maintaining the relationship or financial support)? This is one area in which we agree ... these women who conceal the child and then go for arrearages when they've *orchestrated* the situation ought to either lose custody straight-away for not encouraging and supporting the child's right to their other parent or be disallowed from collecting back support. So if he had wanted to fight for custody, he would have had to first re-establish his parental rights, then establish a relationship with the child, then apply for custody. But the time he could have taken all of those steps, she would have no longer been a minor, so we did not do so. Besides which, there was no money to travel to where she lives for the necessary court appearances--and no money to bring her to us for visitation. Shouldn't, logically, some of the CS go toward travel expenses for visitation? The CP uses the CS money to support her household--there is no $$ left for travel--or for after school sports or other things that the order says she is entitled to. Child support pretty much put us in a position of living month-to-month. We haven't even had a real vacation since CS was established, except to use the very limited savings we did have to go meet her the summer after support was established. I'm sorry that the system has had such a detrimental effect on your lives! I know that doesn't help ... but I hope you know that I honestly feel for you. I know you do, Paula. And I feel the same for CPs who are stuck in situations where their child is deprived of both father and any help with the basics. I do believe that the basics should be required--comfortable basics, not bare bones. You also believe in having a "child support" system, and therein lies the problem. Who ought to define "comfortable basics" and why? Foster care is supposed to pay for basics. How about taking the amount paid in the area for foster care and splitting it in half, each parent required to pay 50%. I do believe in boht parents being responsible for their choices. But I also believe that unmarried parents should be dealt with differently than divorced parents. Why? Don't *all* parents have the obligation to support their children? It depends. If a woman has a child and keeps that child secret from a man for several years, then the man should be totally and forever off the hook for any sort of support. If the mom had wanted the child to have a dad (and not just money for herself) she would not have kept the child secret. A man has 6 months (in some places) to contest paternity. A woman should have only that same amount of time to declare paternity. If women have the right to walk away from a newborn just by dropping it off at a place of refuge, a man should have the exact same right. If a woman names a man as father to her child, the automatic default position of the courts should be 50/50 joint custody. If the woman relocated during her pregnancy, she should have to move back to where the father is so that the 50/50 joint custody can be accomplished. The system needs to be balanced so that each parent has equal rights and responsibilities. If this were done, we would see far fewer out-of-wedlock births, and far fewer single parent households. I think that 50/50 should be the default for nearly all situations. In the case of the mother keeping the fact that a child existed a secret, though, a man should not be held responsibel years after the fact, for sure. |
#26
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Child Support - When Does Child Support End?
On Nov 28, 6:29 pm, Sarah Gray wrote:
"DB" wrote : "Sarah Gray" wrote in Why? Don't *all* parents have the obligation to support their children? No, not if they are forced into parenthood with zero choices!!!!!!!!!!!!1 To say that *all* unmarried fathers would abandon their children if given the opportunity is doing them a great disservice. That argument works for married fathers, too, you know. With the laws as they are now, *no* man has any choice over whether he becomes a father, at least not post-conception. I don't see this as correct...if a man is not educated on how conception happens, than that is different. Realistically, if they did not want to have a child its not because they didn't know! If you do the deed, there is a chance! |
#27
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Child Support - When Does Child Support End?
"Very Determined!" wrote in message ... On Nov 28, 6:29 pm, Sarah Gray wrote: "DB" wrote : "Sarah Gray" wrote in Why? Don't *all* parents have the obligation to support their children? No, not if they are forced into parenthood with zero choices!!!!!!!!!!!!1 To say that *all* unmarried fathers would abandon their children if given the opportunity is doing them a great disservice. That argument works for married fathers, too, you know. With the laws as they are now, *no* man has any choice over whether he becomes a father, at least not post-conception. I don't see this as correct...if a man is not educated on how conception happens, than that is different. Realistically, if they did not want to have a child its not because they didn't know! If you do the deed, there is a chance! So I take it that you oppose the current (in the U.S.) legal situation that allows women, but ONLY women, to make the post-conception reproductive choices. After all, if WOMEN "do the deed, there is a chance!" Am I the only person who is astonished at the inability of so many women to see the point that, if THEY are to be given post-conception reproductive choices (via abortion, adoption, or new-born drop-off laws), men also should have such choices (via the ability to renounce their paternal rights and responsibilities, such as 18+ years of "child support")? |
#28
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Child Support - When Does Child Support End?
"Kenneth S." wrote in So I take it that you oppose the current (in the U.S.) legal situation that allows women, but ONLY women, to make the post-conception reproductive choices. After all, if WOMEN "do the deed, there is a chance!" Am I the only person who is astonished at the inability of so many women to see the point that, if THEY are to be given post-conception reproductive choices (via abortion, adoption, or new-born drop-off laws), men also should have such choices (via the ability to renounce their paternal rights and responsibilities, such as 18+ years of "child support")? At the time my Ex girlfriend got herself knocked up, I wasn't aware of these options! |
#29
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Child Support - When Does Child Support End?
-- [Any man that's good enough to support a child is good enough to have custody of such child] "Sarah Gray" wrote in message 3.102... "teachrmama" wrote in : "Sarah Gray" wrote in message . 33.102... "DB" wrote in : "Sarah Gray" wrote in Why? Don't *all* parents have the obligation to support their children? No, not if they are forced into parenthood with zero choices!!!!!!!!!!!!1 To say that *all* unmarried fathers would abandon their children if given the opportunity is doing them a great disservice. That argument works for married fathers, too, you know. With the laws as they are now, *no* man has any choice over whether he becomes a father, at least not post-conception. Of course there should be choices. But right now there are not any choices for the men. Of the man chooses fatherhood, and marriage is not an option for whatever reason, then 50/50 joint custody should be the default. Oh, I agree completely with that. I just don't hang with the idea that because men have a raw deal vis a vis choice and custody, that they should have less responsibility towards their children. That's because you lack a fundamental, but crucial, understanding of the concept of responsibilities being inseparable from RIGHTS. |
#30
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Child Support - When Does Child Support End?
"Chris" wrote in message ... -- [Any man that's good enough to support a child is good enough to have custody of such child] "Sarah Gray" wrote in message 3.102... "teachrmama" wrote in : "Sarah Gray" wrote in message . 33.102... "DB" wrote in : "Sarah Gray" wrote in Why? Don't *all* parents have the obligation to support their children? No, not if they are forced into parenthood with zero choices!!!!!!!!!!!!1 To say that *all* unmarried fathers would abandon their children if given the opportunity is doing them a great disservice. That argument works for married fathers, too, you know. With the laws as they are now, *no* man has any choice over whether he becomes a father, at least not post-conception. Of course there should be choices. But right now there are not any choices for the men. Of the man chooses fatherhood, and marriage is not an option for whatever reason, then 50/50 joint custody should be the default. Oh, I agree completely with that. I just don't hang with the idea that because men have a raw deal vis a vis choice and custody, that they should have less responsibility towards their children. That's because you lack a fundamental, but crucial, understanding of the concept of responsibilities being inseparable from RIGHTS. BUT, Chris, when it comes to a married couple splitting up, the man had long sice ACCEPTED responsibility for the children, so just refusing to see them any more does not negate those responsibilities. In the case of never-marrieds, there needs to be far more equity than there is today. |
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