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How Dangerous is Childhood



 
 
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  #51  
Old August 27th 06, 06:23 PM posted to misc.kids,alt.mothers
Knit Chic
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 142
Default How Dangerous is Childhood


"Banty" wrote in message
...
In article , Knit Chic
says...


"Cathy Weeks" wrote in message
oups.com...

Knit Chic wrote:
"Cathy Weeks" wrote in message
ps.com...

Knit Chic wrote:
"toto" wrote in message
...
http://health.theledger.com/article/...11/FAMILY/1478


IMO the author of this article has very poor logic skills. The
information
that is used to back up her issue has nothing to do with the issue
that
has
been presented.
Comparing apples to oranges ...

Oh? Give examples please? Hard to have a good conversation without
knowing your reasons.

Cathy Weeks

I haven't chosen a "side" IMO the article has no real value as it is
illogical.
If your asking me if I think some parents are over the top w/ how they
act
w/ their children and dangers, I would have to say yes. Do I think
that
some parents are not attentive enough w/ their children and dangers,
again,
I would have to say yes.
If you asked do I think that I handle the issue w/ my family in a
healthy
and positive way, again I would have to say yes ... and I may say
about
you even though that you may chose to handle it a completely different
way
... it doesn't mean that I think your dealing with it incorrectly or
"wrong"
(I have no idea how you deal w/ it, it's a hypothetical you)
I also don't think that making a child aware of dangers and making a
child
fearful (as an adult or a child) go hand in hand.
I believe that making a child aware of dangers is the easy part ...
giving
them the tools they need to deal with those dangers ... that's not so
easy.
And it's often overlooked.

I don't mean to be dense here, but what things in the article are
illogical? I don't understand how they are comparing apples to
oranges. I do have a "side" - I tend to think parents don't have a
good perspective on risk taking, but that does NOT mean I cannot
overlook a problem with the article, nor does it mean I spot every
logic error. In fact, *because* I agree with the writer of the article,
I am *less* likely to spot logic errors.

grin that's where you come in handy! :-)

Cathy Weeks



I believe the article isn't logical because rating non related behaviors
and
then using them to justify behaviors isn't sensible to me. Comments like:
'there is more danger letting my kid wash dishes and getting hurt than
letting my child walk home from school alone. So ... I'll let my kid walk
home from school alone' make no sense to me. One activity has nothing to
do
with the other.


Where is that in the article? I read it, then searched for the word
"dishes",
and didn't find it. Are you talking about something other than the link
that's
posted above?

I believe that each activity has to be assessed on it's own merit and w/
the
abilities of the child in mind. ie. My daughter has difficulty w/ balance
and coordination. I encourage her to use climbing toys at the park to
help
her with this, however there is one park that we go to that has one piece
of
equipment that I don't allow her to climb. While there are other 7 year
olds climbing that particular piece of equipment and my daughter would
like
to climb the 12 foot high equipment, I don't allow it. Not yet at least,
she will get there but she isn't ready yet. I could easily be viewed as
overprotective by those who do not know my reasoning. However they don't
know that I have truly assessed the risk to her and have decided that the
risk is too great. OTOH my daughter is an excellent swimmer at the age of
3
I permitted her to dive into 12 foot water while I stood at the edge of
the
pool, other parents looked at me w/ horror.
So .. my point ... and I think I have one is that while I could be
viewed
as overprotective by one set of parents (at the park) and under-protective
by another set of parents (at the pool) I know that I have made the best
choice for my child by the facts concerning that particular activity. I
didn't have to compare the risk of unrelated activities to make a good
judgment.

also .. thanks for asking It helped me gather my thoughts on the issue.



OK - different children may need different limits, even in a world where
limit-setting is always appropriate.

It still doesnt' clarify what you think is apples vs. oranges in the
article.
Which analogy fails, and why?


This is a quote in the artical .. they are using to prove their point
"Intellectually, we know the odds: The chances of dying aboard
a plane are slim (Lifetime odds: 1 in 500,000, and that's for
frequent fliers). But emotionally, we aren't convinced. Flying
scares us."
um .. flying has nothing to do w/ child hood dangers.
I used my own example as my post isn't written to the the OP but someone
else who asked me a question.



Even *if* there were a sentance about dishwashing (where I think the
danger may
be in grabbing a knife or something like that), it would depend on what
point is
being made or how it's being made, and whether or not the obvious
differences
are pertinent to the point beging made.



In analogies there are *always*
differences.


exactly, that is one of the reasons I think this artical stinks ... again, I
don't have a side in the issue. I pretty much parent the way I want to
parent and don't really care much what others think of my parenting. I do
my best to be a mindful parent, my kids are doing well ... I think I'm going
in the right direction w/ them. If there is a time I think I'm not ... I'll
change what I'm doing. I have had to do that before.


What matter is whether or not they're differences which make the
analogy false ("apples and oranges").

That's the kind of clarification I'd be looking for.

Banty


well, I gave you the best I had w/ the time I had.

on the side, I just went back and read what you wrote, I have no idea what
you are asking me, if anything at all.


  #52  
Old August 27th 06, 07:07 PM posted to misc.kids,alt.mothers
Banty
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,278
Default How Dangerous is Childhood

In article , Knit Chic says...


"Banty" wrote in message
...



OK - different children may need different limits, even in a world where
limit-setting is always appropriate.

It still doesnt' clarify what you think is apples vs. oranges in the
article.
Which analogy fails, and why?


This is a quote in the artical .. they are using to prove their point
"Intellectually, we know the odds: The chances of dying aboard
a plane are slim (Lifetime odds: 1 in 500,000, and that's for
frequent fliers). But emotionally, we aren't convinced. Flying
scares us."
um .. flying has nothing to do w/ child hood dangers.


But why isn't it an analogy to childhood dangers? It seems that you're
dismissing *any* analogy, or don't quite get how a point is made by analogy.

To spell it out, what the analogy is, is that:

1a. Flying entails a risk of crash.
1b. Crashes are quite severe and make the news, but they are also quite rare
(which is why they make the news).
1c. Not flying also has a cost - limiting oneself in one's travels.
1d. People nonethesless fly to access the benefits of travels, even if they are
mindful and somewhat fearful of rare crashes.

2a. Children playing outside without immediate, direct parental supervision
entails a risk of abduction.
2b. Abduction is quite severe and examples of abductions makes the news, but
they are also quite rare (which is why they make the news).
1c. Not playing outside, or much less often and only under immediate and direct
supervision has a cost - limiting the child from childhood experiences,
excerise, opportunities for growth.
1d. People should nonetheless allow their children some freedom to access the
benefits of the freedom to play, even if they are mindful and somewhat fearful
of rare child abductions.


I used my own example as my post isn't written to the the OP but someone
else who asked me a question.


The question was as to why, exactly, you thought the article was "apples and
oranges". It was _about_ the article.




Even *if* there were a sentance about dishwashing (where I think the
danger may
be in grabbing a knife or something like that), it would depend on what
point is
being made or how it's being made, and whether or not the obvious
differences
are pertinent to the point beging made.



In analogies there are *always*
differences.


exactly, that is one of the reasons I think this artical stinks ...


But arguing by anology is a perfectly legitimate way to reason.

again, I
don't have a side in the issue. I pretty much parent the way I want to
parent and don't really care much what others think of my parenting. I do
my best to be a mindful parent, my kids are doing well ... I think I'm going
in the right direction w/ them. If there is a time I think I'm not ... I'll
change what I'm doing. I have had to do that before.


Oh, I agree with all that - and I think that none of what is said in the article
negates the need for individual parents to make informed decisions concerning
individual children keeping in mind various circumstances.

What is being advocated in the article is that parents understand that there is
always some risk, and to make decisions knowing *real* relatie risks (instead of
what's the scariest risk), and also to understand that there are real costs and
risks in a decision NOT to do or allow something because of small risks. *Then*
make a decision.


What matter is whether or not they're differences which make the
analogy false ("apples and oranges").

That's the kind of clarification I'd be looking for.

Banty


well, I gave you the best I had w/ the time I had.

on the side, I just went back and read what you wrote, I have no idea what
you are asking me, if anything at all.



To justify where you think the article was arguing "apples and oranges".

Banty


--

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5222154.stm
  #53  
Old August 27th 06, 08:27 PM posted to misc.kids,alt.mothers
Rosalie B.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 984
Default How Dangerous is Childhood

Banty wrote:

In article , Knit Chic says...

I THINK that what Banty is asking is for you to say why the analogies
are not appropriate. You are saying that the article compares apples
to oranges. That's what analogies do. Compare one thing to another.
The apples and oranges being inappropriate comes in when you are
assuming that the two things being compared are equivalent. For
instance, if you are comparing the price of a VCR/DVD player with just
a straight DVD player, that is comparing apples to oranges.


"Banty" wrote in message
...



OK - different children may need different limits, even in a world where
limit-setting is always appropriate.

It still doesnt' clarify what you think is apples vs. oranges in the
article.
Which analogy fails, and why?


This is a quote in the artical .. they are using to prove their point
"Intellectually, we know the odds: The chances of dying aboard
a plane are slim (Lifetime odds: 1 in 500,000, and that's for
frequent fliers). But emotionally, we aren't convinced. Flying
scares us."
um .. flying has nothing to do w/ child hood dangers.


But why isn't it an analogy to childhood dangers? It seems that you're
dismissing *any* analogy, or don't quite get how a point is made by analogy.

To spell it out, what the analogy is, is that:

1a. Flying entails a risk of crash.
1b. Crashes are quite severe and make the news, but they are also quite rare
(which is why they make the news).
1c. Not flying also has a cost - limiting oneself in one's travels.
1d. People nonethesless fly to access the benefits of travels, even if they are
mindful and somewhat fearful of rare crashes.

2a. Children playing outside without immediate, direct parental supervision
entails a risk of abduction.
2b. Abduction is quite severe and examples of abductions makes the news, but
they are also quite rare (which is why they make the news).
1c. Not playing outside, or much less often and only under immediate and direct
supervision has a cost - limiting the child from childhood experiences,
excerise, opportunities for growth.
1d. People should nonetheless allow their children some freedom to access the
benefits of the freedom to play, even if they are mindful and somewhat fearful
of rare child abductions.


I used my own example as my post isn't written to the the OP but someone
else who asked me a question.


The question was as to why, exactly, you thought the article was "apples and
oranges". It was _about_ the article.




Even *if* there were a sentance about dishwashing (where I think the
danger may
be in grabbing a knife or something like that), it would depend on what
point is
being made or how it's being made, and whether or not the obvious
differences
are pertinent to the point beging made.



In analogies there are *always*
differences.


exactly, that is one of the reasons I think this artical stinks ...


But arguing by anology is a perfectly legitimate way to reason.

again, I
don't have a side in the issue. I pretty much parent the way I want to
parent and don't really care much what others think of my parenting. I do
my best to be a mindful parent, my kids are doing well ... I think I'm going
in the right direction w/ them. If there is a time I think I'm not ... I'll
change what I'm doing. I have had to do that before.


Oh, I agree with all that - and I think that none of what is said in the article
negates the need for individual parents to make informed decisions concerning
individual children keeping in mind various circumstances.

What is being advocated in the article is that parents understand that there is
always some risk, and to make decisions knowing *real* relatie risks (instead of
what's the scariest risk), and also to understand that there are real costs and
risks in a decision NOT to do or allow something because of small risks. *Then*
make a decision.


What matter is whether or not they're differences which make the
analogy false ("apples and oranges").

That's the kind of clarification I'd be looking for.

Banty


well, I gave you the best I had w/ the time I had.

on the side, I just went back and read what you wrote, I have no idea what
you are asking me, if anything at all.



To justify where you think the article was arguing "apples and oranges".

Banty


  #54  
Old August 28th 06, 02:25 PM posted to misc.kids,alt.mothers
Leanne
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5
Default How Dangerous is Childhood


Untrue. My Dad grew up in a totalitarian regime. There was plenty of
obedience, but no respect for the people at the top.


This is what I think the whole issue is, its comparing extremes... most
children will never be put in a situation like that (my father fled from
Poland to escape Auschwitz as a child) There will be no absolute fear to
make them obey without respect. I can honestly say I was much more
interested in learning/listening in classes where teachers showed respect
and belief in each individual.



 




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