Teenagers - a situation with my son

In article om, Zipadee
says...

On Sep 10, 6:51 am, Nan wrote:
On Mon, 10 Sep 2007 06:43:25 -0400, "nimue"
wrote:

IMO your son should call her on the phone and tell her that he is not
interested and could she please stop calling. If that is inadequate
then I would agree with Banty's suggestion.

I think he should do that, too. Definitely. I wonder why on earth he
hasn't -- and I do wonder if there isn't more to this story than he is
telling you.

I guess I'm not finding it all that unusual for someone to act like he
has.... just hoping she gets the "hint" because he hasn't returned her
calls or gone on a date with her.

But, I don't think he has good reason to complain about the unwanted
attention unless he's been completely honest with her, either.

Nan

I'm not sure what "more to the story" you think there could be, nimue.

I don't find his behavior unusual at all. The whole thing makes him
uncomfortable and he doesn't want to communicate with her at all.

But she completely isn't getting that so I think all of you are right
that he is going to have to tell her.

I'm assuming she doesn't tell her parents that there's a guy she
was trying to call every day this summer. (She was away from
home at a summer program at that time.)

Certainly we all remember our younger days when having to
tell someone interested in us that we weren't interested in them.
It was never easy.

Here's a question - suppose you had a 17-year-old daughter
and she told you that there was a guy she liked (or maybe
she said, just wanted to be friends with) and she said she kept
trying to call him, send text messages or email and he never
answered her. Wouldn't you tell her to give up?
(I'm not implying that she has spoken to her parents, I would
guess not!)

This all happens on their cell phones, not the house phone,
so I wouldn't even know about it if my son didn't tell me.
I know he hasn't seen this girl (at a group event) since last
spring.


Zip - it doesn't make sense make this an either-or who's-wrong thing.

Yes - her behavior is at the least clueless, and maybe over the edge. But you
can't wave a wand over her head to make her change, unless and until you can
determine that this behavior is going over to point of criminal harassment.

What you and your son *can* do is:

1. Make sure he's made it verbally clear to her, politely, but firmly and
crystal-clearly, that he's not pursuing a relationship of any sort with her and
doesn't want any calls from her at all. Have him do it in front of you maybe,
or in front of any friends he's worried about her dishing dirt to about it.
It's a step that has to be made in any case, if her harassement becomes so
disruptive as to need to go to authorities.

It's something that's only decent; it's something that, if you talk to a parent
of hers, will be one of their first concerns, and it's the first thing any
authority will ask you if it comes to it - can your son say that he clearly has
indicated that he is not interested in a relationship.

2. He can change cell phone numbers, and give the new one out only to a few
trusted friends for some time. This is just about everyone's first measure of
defense against harassing phone calls - changing phone numbers. If you need to
go to authorities in the future, this will be the *second* thing they will ask
you - did you (and your son) take this simple measure concerning this problem.

*Then*, if you cant' get away from it, your son has told her no more calls and
changed numbers and it still goes on, either talk to her parents or go to
authorities. Yes, I was the one that said to do that at this point, but it
hadn't occured to me that you son hadn't taken the simple step of telling her
there's no relationship. And I thought (old fashioned of me in the extreme...)
this problem was going on on your family land line.

The last resort is going to authorities. The cell phone provider should have a
record of received calls.

But, no, although it may be 'normal' to tell people there is no relationship by
passive-aggressively ignoring communications (yeah a lot of people do
that..frankly it's sucky), and although it may be foolish or possibly even
obsessive for her not to have gotten the message, it's only decent that he tell
her directly that he does not want her calls and he does not want to pursue a
relationship.

Banty

Banty wrote:

What you and your son *can* do is:

1. Make sure he's made it verbally clear to her, politely, but firmly and
crystal-clearly, that he's not pursuing a relationship of any sort with her and
doesn't want any calls from her at all. Have him do it in front of you maybe,
or in front of any friends he's worried about her dishing dirt to about it.

If he's trying to make this as easy as possible for her, putting her
through that kind of embarrassing situation in front of people she knows
strikes me as a really bad way of going about it.

One suggestion I'd make is for him to tell her by letter. That way he
has the chance to think about what he's going to say, and she has a
chance to cool down after hearing the news, which may help.

But, no, although it may be 'normal' to tell people there is no relationship by
passive-aggressively ignoring communications (yeah a lot of people do
that..frankly it's sucky), and although it may be foolish or possibly even
obsessive for her not to have gotten the message, it's only decent that he tell
her directly that he does not want her calls and he does not want to pursue a
relationship.

Am I the only person here who thinks that ignoring initial
communications can actually be a pretty reasonable way to deal with the
situation where another person wants more from a relationship (either in
terms of friendship or romance) than you do?

I know that having to deal with the knowledge that the person you want
doesn't want you is painful regardless of how it's handled, but I'm
really not convinced that going through a conversation in which said
person specifically *states* that they don't want a relationship is
going to make it less painful. And I also think it's a mistake to act
on the assumption that if one person feels an attraction towards another
that automatically puts the other person under some sort of obligation
towards them.

To clarify, I'm talking here about the situation where the two people in
question are just casual acquaintances to start with, which is what I
understand to be the case with the OP's son and this girl. If I'm wrong
and they were actually closer friends who were in regular touch and he's
*stopped* talking to her on the phone where once upon a time this would
have been a regular thing, then I think that's rather different; if
that's the case, then I think he does owe her an explanation of what's
changed. But if it's just that she's an acquaintance who wants to call
him a lot and he doesn't want to talk to her, then, regardless of the
reason why she wants to chat to him this much, I don't think he's under
any sort of obligation to do so. I don't think it's his job to spell it
out to her that he doesn't want to talk; I think it's her job to get a clue.

Of course, this is a moot point. She isn't getting a clue, and so he's
now been backed into a corner where he clearly *does* have to spell it
out to her in order to have any chance of resolving the situation. I
just don't think that the reason things have reached this stage is his
fault for being passive-aggressive or showing lack of integrity. I
think it's her fault for being boneheaded.


All the best,

Sarah


Banty




--
http://www.goodenoughmummy.typepad.com

"That which can be destroyed by the truth, should be" - P. C. Hodgell

In article , Sarah Vaughan says...

Banty wrote:

What you and your son *can* do is:

1. Make sure he's made it verbally clear to her, politely, but firmly and
crystal-clearly, that he's not pursuing a relationship of any sort with her and
doesn't want any calls from her at all. Have him do it in front of you maybe,
or in front of any friends he's worried about her dishing dirt to about it.

If he's trying to make this as easy as possible for her, putting her
through that kind of embarrassing situation in front of people she knows
strikes me as a really bad way of going about it.

She needn't know about it. This is a phone call. And I'm assuming it's a
friend or two *he* cares about keeping the story straight with. It's just an
idea...

Sometimes, defensive measures like this are necessary, as the girl is clearly
somewhat unhinged. Not that he shouldn't have outright told her before, but she
*is* reacting strangely, and strangely in a rather unhealthy, but common,
pattern.


One suggestion I'd make is for him to tell her by letter. That way he
has the chance to think about what he's going to say, and she has a
chance to cool down after hearing the news, which may help.

A bit unusual for the mode of communication for people his age, though. It
might get passed around, though, making *his* life more miserable. In fact, I'd
wager it would get passed around.


But, no, although it may be 'normal' to tell people there is no relationship by
passive-aggressively ignoring communications (yeah a lot of people do
that..frankly it's sucky), and although it may be foolish or possibly even
obsessive for her not to have gotten the message, it's only decent that he tell
her directly that he does not want her calls and he does not want to pursue a
relationship.

Am I the only person here who thinks that ignoring initial
communications can actually be a pretty reasonable way to deal with the
situation where another person wants more from a relationship (either in
terms of friendship or romance) than you do?

If it's early on. It's still kinda sucky.

We don't know (and likely the OP doesn't know) what all went on. At any rate,
it's a necessary step to take at this point.


I know that having to deal with the knowledge that the person you want
doesn't want you is painful regardless of how it's handled, but I'm
really not convinced that going through a conversation in which said
person specifically *states* that they don't want a relationship is
going to make it less painful.

No, it's not. But, given all her efforts, it's necessary to make it clear.

And I also think it's a mistake to act
on the assumption that if one person feels an attraction towards another
that automatically puts the other person under some sort of obligation
towards them.


But some kind of answer needs to be given to the "let's get together" statements
or invitations to outings with romantic possibilities. Indeed, in some places,
like the workplace, one needs to make that delineation early - to go along or
not, if someone is expressing romantic interest. "No" in some form has to
happen somewhere along the line. Not much different from the PTA president
calling on you to join a committee and you don't want to get involved - really,
one has to learn to say "no".

Now, a fair proportion of people seem to have problems with the notion that 'no'
is a perfectly valid answer, and this girl likely is in that category.

To clarify, I'm talking here about the situation where the two people in
question are just casual acquaintances to start with, which is what I
understand to be the case with the OP's son and this girl. If I'm wrong
and they were actually closer friends who were in regular touch and he's
*stopped* talking to her on the phone where once upon a time this would
have been a regular thing, then I think that's rather different; if
that's the case, then I think he does owe her an explanation of what's
changed. But if it's just that she's an acquaintance who wants to call
him a lot and he doesn't want to talk to her, then, regardless of the
reason why she wants to chat to him this much, I don't think he's under
any sort of obligation to do so. I don't think it's his job to spell it
out to her that he doesn't want to talk; I think it's her job to get a clue.


I don't know if this is a messy breakup (that hasn't been led on to the OP).
But either way, that statement needs to be made - to help the breakup, or to
prepare to show to some authority that this communication has been made.

Clearly, even without a clear "no" answer, this girl is refusing to get the
message. I don't blame the young man. But he needs to do it.

Of course, this is a moot point. She isn't getting a clue, and so he's
now been backed into a corner where he clearly *does* have to spell it
out to her in order to have any chance of resolving the situation. I
just don't think that the reason things have reached this stage is his
fault for being passive-aggressive or showing lack of integrity. I
think it's her fault for being boneheaded.

Yep - there's at least some fair measure of this that is her fault, whatever the
situation.

It's just that that doesn't change all that much what he should do.

Hopefully, it's just that these are two young people who just aren't handling
themselves well. But there are a couple of things to do to either fix the
problem or really find out how problematic this girl is.

Banty

Zipadee wrote:

Thanks for any suggestions.

Getting the flu now and then is good because
everyone needs periodic reminders that
"There is a God, and YOU AIN'T IT !"
..
..
--

Banty wrote:
In article , Sarah Vaughan says...
Banty wrote:

What you and your son *can* do is:

1. Make sure he's made it verbally clear to her, politely, but firmly and
crystal-clearly, that he's not pursuing a relationship of any sort with her and
doesn't want any calls from her at all. Have him do it in front of you maybe,
or in front of any friends he's worried about her dishing dirt to about it.
If he's trying to make this as easy as possible for her, putting her
through that kind of embarrassing situation in front of people she knows
strikes me as a really bad way of going about it.

She needn't know about it. This is a phone call.

Ah, I get what you mean. But there's something... sneaky about letting
people listen in to something like this without the other person being
aware of it. Bear in mind that the friends might talk and it might get
back to her... and that *would* be a legitimate gripe on her part. Even
if it doesn't get back to her, I think it's out of line. If he has a
couple of friends that he really wants to know his side of the story,
it's perfectly fair for him to just *tell* them, but I don't think
having them as an audience is that appropriate.

[...]
One suggestion I'd make is for him to tell her by letter. That way he
has the chance to think about what he's going to say, and she has a
chance to cool down after hearing the news, which may help.

A bit unusual for the mode of communication for people his age, though.

Nothing wrong with 'unusual'. ;-) But the OP has since mentioned the
idea of an e-mail, which sounds sensible to me.

It
might get passed around, though, making *his* life more miserable. In fact, I'd
wager it would get passed around.

If she'd pass around a letter, then she'd also pass on stories about
what he said to her verbally. I think the former option is better from
his POV, because then she can't twist things and it's clear exactly
what's been said. If he keeps it to a simple statement that he's sorry
her feelings got hurt but he just doesn't feel the same way about her as
she does about him and thought it best not to get in touch and give her
false hope, then I think it's a bit difficult for anyone to make much
out of that. And bear in mind that passing on something like that would
be embarrassing for her - I mean, if he writes something like "When you
started getting a bit obsessive and texting me every day, I thought it
was time to cool it for a bit" then I rather suspect she's not going to
want to pass it on.

But, no, although it may be 'normal' to tell people there is no relationship by
passive-aggressively ignoring communications (yeah a lot of people do
that..frankly it's sucky), and although it may be foolish or possibly even
obsessive for her not to have gotten the message, it's only decent that he tell
her directly that he does not want her calls and he does not want to pursue a
relationship.
Am I the only person here who thinks that ignoring initial
communications can actually be a pretty reasonable way to deal with the
situation where another person wants more from a relationship (either in
terms of friendship or romance) than you do?

If it's early on. It's still kinda sucky.

It's kinda sucky for the person you want not to want you, but there
isn't really a way of avoiding the suckiness of that. I think that if
you want to deepen a relationship and you're at the putting-out-feelers
stage to try to work out whether they feel the same way, and you've
called them a few times for a chat but in fact they *don't* feel the
same way... well, given a choice between the person telling you straight
out that they don't want a relationship and just not answering the calls
and leaving you to get the message, I think the second is actually less
painful, as it avoids a scene that's going to be embarrassing and
awkward for the desirer as well as the desiree.

(This is assuming that the calls *were* just general chitchat. If she
asked him straight out at any point whether he'd be interested in a
relationship - well, I figure a straight question does deserve a
straight answer, and if that ever happened then I think he does owe her
a "Sorry, but no.")

We don't know (and likely the OP doesn't know) what all went on. At any rate,
it's a necessary step to take at this point.

I know that having to deal with the knowledge that the person you want
doesn't want you is painful regardless of how it's handled, but I'm
really not convinced that going through a conversation in which said
person specifically *states* that they don't want a relationship is
going to make it less painful.

No, it's not. But, given all her efforts, it's necessary to make it clear.

I totally agree with this, and specified so in my post. What I was
objecting to was the idea - implied by both you and Nan - that he's
somehow wrong in the way he acted towards her and that all of this was
his fault for not being willing to answer initial chatty phone calls
with a flat-out statement that he didn't want a relationship rather than
simply keeping quiet and leaving her to get the message. I think the
fact that he did this was reasonable and appropriate at that point, and
the fact that things have now reached the point where he needs to go
further is not because *he* handled the situation wrong or was being
passive-aggressive or showing a lack of integrity, but because *she*
handled the situation wrong by flat-out refusing to get the message.

And I also think it's a mistake to act
on the assumption that if one person feels an attraction towards another
that automatically puts the other person under some sort of obligation
towards them.


But some kind of answer needs to be given to the "let's get together" statements
or invitations to outings with romantic possibilities. Indeed, in some places,
like the workplace, one needs to make that delineation early - to go along or
not, if someone is expressing romantic interest.

Which, according to the OP, is exactly what did happen. According to
the initial post, this girl has asked the boy out a few times and he
turned her down each time. If any such requests were made in the phone
calls then, again, I agree that a straight answer needs to be given to a
straight question. However, my impression was that the phone calls were
just attempts to chat (presumably with the ultimate goal of taking
things further, but presented at that stage as attempts to chat).


[...]
Clearly, even without a clear "no" answer, this girl is refusing to get the
message. I don't blame the young man. But he needs to do it.

Again, I totally agree. I was objecting to the 'passive-aggressive'
statement, plus Nan's statement about his behaviour showing a lack of
integrity.


All the best,

Sarah
--
http://www.goodenoughmummy.typepad.com

"That which can be destroyed by the truth, should be" - P. C. Hodgell

I would definitely let the youth group leaders know what is happening.
There could be a blow-up from her at the meeting.

I would have your son make absolutely clear that he is not interested.
And, you might also want to clue her parents into what is happening and
that his interest in her is non-existent.

One other option is contacting the police. The message she left on the
phone and frequent phone calls is probably legally harassment.

Jeff

I thought I wrote more about this earlier today but it doesn't seem
to have shown up.

My son hasn't been at my house, but at his dad's the last 2 days so
we hadn't discussed it. I did ask him today if there had been
anything between them at any time and he said no. She had
occasionally been among a small group of people getting
together to do something but there was never anything between
the two of them. He also told me tonight that he did take my past
advice and wrote her an email last night where he said he wasn't
interested in talking to her and would she please not call him
anymore.

She hasn't replied or called so far so perhaps she will stop
calling now.

He is one of the leaders of the regional youth group so
he did tell the adult advisor yesterday of this issue so she
can be aware of the situation just in case there's any problem
at group events. We're hoping things will be okay now.

-- Zip

On Tue, 11 Sep 2007 18:54:49 -0700, Zipadee
wrote:

I thought I wrote more about this earlier today but it doesn't seem
to have shown up.

My son hasn't been at my house, but at his dad's the last 2 days so
we hadn't discussed it. I did ask him today if there had been
anything between them at any time and he said no. She had
occasionally been among a small group of people getting
together to do something but there was never anything between
the two of them. He also told me tonight that he did take my past
advice and wrote her an email last night where he said he wasn't
interested in talking to her and would she please not call him
anymore.

She hasn't replied or called so far so perhaps she will stop
calling now.

He is one of the leaders of the regional youth group so
he did tell the adult advisor yesterday of this issue so she
can be aware of the situation just in case there's any problem
at group events. We're hoping things will be okay now.

-- Zip

It sounds like he's handled it appropriately, then. I hope it's
cleared up for them. I don't recall life being so complicated when
I was 17.....

Nan