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Tough decision - Elective C or not ?



 
 
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  #191  
Old October 7th 03, 01:45 AM
Larry McMahan
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Default Tough decision - Elective C or not ?

Hillary Israeli writes:
: In ,
: Ericka Kammerer wrote:

: *positions to facilitate an easier delivery. For instance,
: *while you were pushing, were you always on your back or
: *semi-sitting? Were you able to try side-lying or hands
: *and knees or squatting? Those positions increase the
: *amount of space available for your baby by *30 percent*!

: Whoah. Ericka is channeling Todd.

:

Hillary!

If you would have noticed, I think you would realize that
there are a LOT of us around here who are channeling Todd.
Or, as I am more inclined to believe Todd is channeling
the collected wisdom of the newsgroup.

;-)
Larry
  #192  
Old October 7th 03, 02:12 AM
Larry McMahan
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Default Tough decision - Elective C or not ?

Liz writes:

: Larry - you there?

Yes, right here. (waving)

: Larry - you there? To say sections are in theory more risky is to say
: that yes there is a risk of complication, though in actuality these
: risks are minimal (1 in 100000 births was it? The theoretical risk
: exists also in vaginal delivery i.e can, but doesn't always happen. I
: think I can say theoretical risk without negating risk completely.

No, not the way the word "theory" is used (on either side of the pond).
Theory means what you thing the results should be, as opposed to
practice, which means what the results are actually shown to be.
If results a shown to be a certain way, if only for a small number of
cases, it is still practice.

In your paragraph above, I would have no argument if you substituted
the word "statistical" for theoretical. While you may think it is a
small distinction, those who are interested in scientific accuracy
will think it is an important distinction.

: It is not fair however to condemn me for publicising the potential
: trauma of vaginal delivery, when so many here are free to tell section
: horror stories with impunity. If I had criticised sections, then no
: doubt I would have had women saying how wrong I was when section was
: their only option, it went well, and potentially saved their life (in
: case of emergeny section) I really can't win. Clearly both can go
: wrong, BUT when section goes smoothly it is a better option for
: someone like me.

Let me address this paragraph to try and help you understand why some
people object to your previous posts.

You are correct that many have posted anecdotal stories of c-sections
which did not go well, and in effect you have the right to post a
story of a c-section which went well for you. If you had stopped there
the storm of protests would not have erupted. However, you drew
conclusions from your experience which is directly contradicted by
a body of published medical research. The objection was to your
claims that your preferences were safer (and when you make a statement
like this, without the qualification that it applies only to you, most
people take you to mean that you mean safer for birthing women as
a whole). That is what you are receiving objections to. They
hear you say that they would also be safer off getting c-sections.
That is the way it reads.

Finally, slightly off the topic, a poster whose name I believe is
Johnathan Laramour (sp?) posted some questions regarding the
procedures used during your birth experience. If you happen to
answer the questions, I would be interested in the answers.

Sincerly,
(Monika said no more making out in public :-)
Larry
  #193  
Old October 7th 03, 02:16 AM
Larry McMahan
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Default Tough decision - Elective C or not ?

Hey Ericka,

She was doing this off the top of her head. She just
added a superfluous zero. That would match the
maternal c-section rate of 1/10,000 which I quoted and
which is within 3% of what you quote. :-)

;-)
Larry

To Liz: See, I told you some people take the scientific
accuracy thing seriously. Especially if you plan to
reach conclusion with the information! :-)

Ericka Kammerer writes:
: Liz wrote:


: To say sections are in theory more risky is to say
: that yes there is a risk of complication, though in actuality these
: risks are minimal (1 in 100000 births was it?


: Whoa, that's *way* off, by orders of magnitude. In
: one very large study comparing vaginal birth to c-sections,
: the rate of complications for vaginal births was 4 percent
: while the rate of complications for cesarean birth was
: a whopping *16 percent*. The rate of uterine infection
: for c-sections was 1.8 percent and the rate of hemorrhage
: requiring transfusion was 1.9 percent. The rate of
: complications for c-section is *four times* the rate
: of complications for vaginal birth!

: If you're talking just about maternal mortality
: rates, you're still off by an order of magnitude, with
: a large study in Washington State showing a maternal
: mortality rate after c-section of 10.3/100,000, as
: compared to a rate of 2.4/100,000 after vaginal birth.
: Still, while maternal mortality is a very important
: issue to look at, quality of life gets affected *long*
: before mom actually dies. The rates of complications
: that are serious and life-affecting are far higher
: than 10.3/100,000.

: Again, there are reasons to have c-sections,
: obviously. But avoiding complications is not one of
: them. It's the increased risk of complications with
: c-section that one must weigh against any presumed
: benefit of c-section!

  #194  
Old October 7th 03, 12:44 PM
Liz
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Default Tough decision - Elective C or not ?

Michelle J. Haines wrote in message .. .
In article ,
says...

Being honest as you ask me to be, I was not in the least bit
afraid, at the time I was excited about meeting my baby.


You weren't then, probably. You obviously are NOW.

No shame in that. I'm terrified of another c-section, so I went way
out of my way to avoid it for a third time. But when the baby was
lying transverse breech and I was looking at it from that
perspective, I would have just had to suck it up and deal with it.
Luckily, she turned in the last week.

The reason
for me avoiding vaginal delivery again is due to the illness I
suffered post childbirth - I was so ill it spoilt the whole experience
for me and made the first months extremely distressing. This I want
to avoid.


Yes, you're afraid, regardless of the statistics, of what may happen.

Michelle
Flutist



************************************************** ******************************

Michelle,

I had made the decision not write or even visit this group anymore.
However, since you insist on telling me how I feel about any future
births I may or may not have, I am compelled to set you straight on a
few issues.

Firstly, I think you'll agree you know absolutely nothing about me or
how I am in the face of trauma and discomfort. I see categorically NO
SHAME in admitting fear of labour or it's associated "evils" if indeed
they happen. If this is how I felt I would say - whilst dealing with
the agony of a 3 day labour, I can safely assert that I felt zero
fear. This does not make me a hero, it means simply that I didn;t see
my condition as an illness, rather the pain was what I would describe
as a "clean" pain. I knew it was for the sole purpose of pushing out
my baby, in this sense it seemed very much less "scary" than the pain
I suffered a few years ago with a bad back. Labour pain was a million
times more painful, though wasn't frightening compared to that
associated with illness. I don't know if any other labouring women
have found this too. In actual fact I can confess that I would feel
more nervous and apprehensive about ceasarean purely because I'd be
going "under the surgeons knife", a concept which is scary to anyone
undergoing surgery.

I can honestly say I have given this much thought. My exhaustion and
strain was evident throughout the labout, though distress emerged
after the fact. When it was over, I was instantly drained, I bled
heavily, was in pain and I was ill. I didn't feel fearful however,
this is an emotion I am sorry to say never emerged. Regret, sadness,
distress for my baby's trauma ( he had been in distress for hours) and
exhaustion were my feelings, though not fear. I do not "fear" this
happening again, I just know I must do what I feel is right for me and
any future babies. Even if I suffer in a similar way with a section,
I at least know that my baby will not be in distress from being wedged
in my pelvis for hours, and I will not be labouring (pointlessly) for
a few days being ineffective in delivering my child.

Secondly, in the same way that you wouldn't like me to start
speculating on your feelings about vaginal birth, or indeed why you
are now avoiding ceasareans - please refrain from insisting on me
being fearful when you have no way of knowing this, particularly since
you've never even met me.
WHy are you so desperate anyway to make me fearful of labour? Very
puzzling, maybe we should analyse that!

Best Wishes

Liz
  #195  
Old October 7th 03, 12:51 PM
Liz
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Default Tough decision - Elective C or not ?

(Katie Jaques) wrote in message . com...
"Circe" wrote in message news:uAWfb.5660$hp5.1185@fed1read04...
"Liz" wrote in message
om...
Being honest as you ask me to be, I was not in the least bit
afraid, at the time I was excited about meeting my baby. The reason
for me avoiding vaginal delivery again is due to the illness I
suffered post childbirth - I was so ill it spoilt the whole experience
for me and made the first months extremely distressing. This I want
to avoid.

My mother was quite sick for a while after I was born (don't know exactly
how long; she might chime in and tell us since she reads the group
periodically) due to an infected episiotomy stitch. She still went on to
have my sister vaginally with no apparent complications of any sort.



Yes, here I am G. I don't remember exactly how long it took me to
get over the infected stitch; it wasn't more than a week or so,
though. *I* knew something was wrong when we left the hospital, but
neither the doctor nor the nurses could see anything so they assured
me everything was fine ... and then I couldn't go back to the hospital
because the baby couldn't go back to the nursery and there was no way
I was going to stop nursing. So I spent some very painful, difficult
days at home. I had a fever over 102 and was in so much pain that my
husband couldn't even sit on the bed without making me scream.
Getting to the doctor's office was pure agony. Anyway, antibiotics
cleared it up pretty quickly, as I remember.

The reason there are six years between Barbara and her younger sister
is that I was unable to get pregnant because, as it turned out, I had
cysts on both ovaries. In 1969 I had major abdominal surgery to
remove the cysts. Everything went fine and I had no complications,
but it took a good six weeks to feel anything like normal again. I
can't imagine what it would have been like to have had a newborn baby
to care for while recovering from that operation. I would NEVER have
considered an elective C-section for my second baby. As painful as
the complication of the first, vaginal birth was, it was NOTHING
compared to recovering from major surgery.

Grandma Katie
Mom to Barbara (Circe), Grandma to Julian, Aurora & Vernon


************************************************** ******************************

Yet many of my friends and colleagues, 5 in all report no problems in
caring for a newborn post ceasarean. Except one who had an infection
in her scar. I guess that we're all just different as are our
experience of surgey, labour and pain. I was ill with aneamia after
my labour for several months, so my episiotomy, though painful was not
the reason for my bad recovery.

Liz x
  #196  
Old October 7th 03, 07:11 PM
kristi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Tough decision - Elective C or not ?

(Liz) wrote in message . com...
(Katie Jaques) wrote in message . com...
"Circe" wrote in message news:uAWfb.5660$hp5.1185@fed1read04...
"Liz" wrote in message
om...
Being honest as you ask me to be, I was not in the least bit
afraid, at the time I was excited about meeting my baby. The reason
for me avoiding vaginal delivery again is due to the illness I
suffered post childbirth - I was so ill it spoilt the whole experience
for me and made the first months extremely distressing. This I want
to avoid.

My mother was quite sick for a while after I was born (don't know exactly
how long; she might chime in and tell us since she reads the group
periodically) due to an infected episiotomy stitch. She still went on to
have my sister vaginally with no apparent complications of any sort.



Yes, here I am G. I don't remember exactly how long it took me to
get over the infected stitch; it wasn't more than a week or so,
though. *I* knew something was wrong when we left the hospital, but
neither the doctor nor the nurses could see anything so they assured
me everything was fine ... and then I couldn't go back to the hospital
because the baby couldn't go back to the nursery and there was no way
I was going to stop nursing. So I spent some very painful, difficult
days at home. I had a fever over 102 and was in so much pain that my
husband couldn't even sit on the bed without making me scream.
Getting to the doctor's office was pure agony. Anyway, antibiotics
cleared it up pretty quickly, as I remember.

The reason there are six years between Barbara and her younger sister
is that I was unable to get pregnant because, as it turned out, I had
cysts on both ovaries. In 1969 I had major abdominal surgery to
remove the cysts. Everything went fine and I had no complications,
but it took a good six weeks to feel anything like normal again. I
can't imagine what it would have been like to have had a newborn baby
to care for while recovering from that operation. I would NEVER have
considered an elective C-section for my second baby. As painful as
the complication of the first, vaginal birth was, it was NOTHING
compared to recovering from major surgery.

Grandma Katie
Mom to Barbara (Circe), Grandma to Julian, Aurora & Vernon


************************************************** ******************************

Yet many of my friends and colleagues, 5 in all report no problems in
caring for a newborn post ceasarean. Except one who had an infection
in her scar. I guess that we're all just different as are our
experience of surgey, labour and pain. I was ill with aneamia after
my labour for several months, so my episiotomy, though painful was not
the reason for my bad recovery.

Liz x


Well, if you are interested in anecdotal evidence, my post-ceasarean
recovery was pretty rough. I hemorrhaged pretty badly afterwards and
lost half my blood supply. Thereafter I also got a urinary tract
infection (related to the catheter, I think) and bronchitis. Try not
coughing to avoid stressing your section scar. After two years, I
still have little feeling in my lower abdomen, and my doctor says it
is probably not ever going to come back. I'd give lots to have
avoided a section and will do everything I can not to have another
one.

Kristi
 




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