What the Research Says About Physical Punishment

On Jul 9, 12:07 pm, "0:-]" wrote:
http://www.uwex.edu/CES/flp/pp/pdf/punishmt.pdf

Parenting the Preschooler
Joan E. LeFebvre
Area Family Living Agent
University of Wisconsin-Extension
Vilas, Forest, Florence Counties

What the Research Says About Physical Punishment

Why do parents spank their children? According to
Murray Straus, a national family violence researcher,
the obvious answer is to correct misbehavior. But
another reason is that it's expected of them. In the
United States legal and social norms give parents the
right to use physical punishment to control and train
their children.

When my son, almost 4 years old, does something truly wrong, such as
wantonly hitting his 2-year-old brother, he deserves, and often gets,
a swat on his rear end. I think that teaches not that random hitting
is acceptable but that misbehavior has consequences. "Time-outs" are
often recommended as an alternative to spanking, but how do you
enforce a time-out if the child does not listen? Spanking is a
necessary last resort.

Consider how this would affect the relationship of parents and
their teens, who are often too big to control by physical
force. The only real resource we have with teens is the
bank of goodwill created through parenting over the
years.

Really? In America, middle and upper class parents typically provide
their children a pretty comfortable life. Children owe their parents a
reasonable degree of obedience. Parents can take away some of the
goodies they provide, and in cases of extreme misbehavior, parents can
throw child out of the house. Teenagers need to understand that being
self-supporting is the condition of complete independence of parents'
rules.

"Beliavsky" wrote in message
ps.com...
On Jul 9, 12:07 pm, "0:-]" wrote:
http://www.uwex.edu/CES/flp/pp/pdf/punishmt.pdf

Parenting the Preschooler
Joan E. LeFebvre
Area Family Living Agent
University of Wisconsin-Extension
Vilas, Forest, Florence Counties

What the Research Says About Physical Punishment

Why do parents spank their children? According to
Murray Straus, a national family violence researcher,
the obvious answer is to correct misbehavior. But
another reason is that it's expected of them. In the
United States legal and social norms give parents the
right to use physical punishment to control and train
their children.

When my son, almost 4 years old, does something truly wrong, such as
wantonly hitting his 2-year-old brother, he deserves, and often gets,
a swat on his rear end. I think that teaches not that random hitting
is acceptable but that misbehavior has consequences. "Time-outs" are
often recommended as an alternative to spanking, but how do you
enforce a time-out if the child does not listen? Spanking is a
necessary last resort.



Unfortunately, you miss an opportunity to teach how to *properly* manage his
frustrations or whatever feelings led to the whacking. He may well be
behind the curve when the report card comes home with "manages feelings
effectively."

When the consequence is disconnected from the crime, as punishment
necessariy is, then you risk winding up with a child who associates the
behavior with the punishment rather with its inherent consequences. So
rather than not doing itm, they become careful at doing the undesirably
thing when someone in a position to punish cannot see.


The two books referenced here both have excellent information on how to
teach children appropriately, what Mrs Swift calls investment discipline.
These are 2 great books.

http://www.amazon.com/Discipline-Lif...4002232&sr=8-1

http://www.amazon.com/Positive-Disci...4002301&sr=8-3


Consider how this would affect the relationship of parents and
their teens, who are often too big to control by physical
force. The only real resource we have with teens is the
bank of goodwill created through parenting over the
years.

Really? In America, middle and upper class parents typically provide
their children a pretty comfortable life. Children owe their parents a
reasonable degree of obedience. Parents can take away some of the
goodies they provide, and in cases of extreme misbehavior, parents can
throw child out of the house. Teenagers need to understand that being
self-supporting is the condition of complete independence of parents'
rules.

Beliavsky schrieb:
On Jul 9, 12:07 pm, "0:-]" wrote:
http://www.uwex.edu/CES/flp/pp/pdf/punishmt.pdf

Parenting the Preschooler
Joan E. LeFebvre
Area Family Living Agent
University of Wisconsin-Extension
Vilas, Forest, Florence Counties

What the Research Says About Physical Punishment

Why do parents spank their children? According to
Murray Straus, a national family violence researcher,
the obvious answer is to correct misbehavior. But
another reason is that it's expected of them. In the
United States legal and social norms give parents the
right to use physical punishment to control and train
their children.

When my son, almost 4 years old, does something truly wrong, such as
wantonly hitting his 2-year-old brother, he deserves, and often gets,
a swat on his rear end. I think that teaches not that random hitting
is acceptable but that misbehavior has consequences. "Time-outs" are
often recommended as an alternative to spanking, but how do you
enforce a time-out if the child does not listen? Spanking is a
necessary last resort.

Ok, so you're trying to teach your kid not to hit by hitting him? And
this is going to work how?
If your son, at age 4, already doesn't listen to you giving him a time
out there's already a much bigger problem right there. Also, how do you
punish him if he doesn't just hit his brother, what if it escalates? Do
you hit harder? Do you hit more than once? Are you going to grab a
wooden spoon or make him get a twig? When do you stop and what do you do
then?
You're very right, spanking is a last resort, because there's nothing to
top it.

Consider how this would affect the relationship of parents and
their teens, who are often too big to control by physical
force. The only real resource we have with teens is the
bank of goodwill created through parenting over the
years.

Really? In America, middle and upper class parents typically provide
their children a pretty comfortable life. Children owe their parents a
reasonable degree of obedience. Parents can take away some of the
goodies they provide, and in cases of extreme misbehavior, parents can
throw child out of the house. Teenagers need to understand that being
self-supporting is the condition of complete independence of parents'
rules.

No, I'm pretty sure, that even in the USA parents can't just throw a
child out of the house. I'm very sure it's not just a german thing that
you can't just move out of the custody of your parents or guardian
before you're 18.

I also don't think children _owe_ their parents respect and obedience. I
think we owe our children a supportive home and we owe them a violence
free upbringing. And then we can hope that our children will respect us
and our rules.

cu
nicole

"NL" wrote in message
...
Beliavsky schrieb:
On Jul 9, 12:07 pm, "0:-]" wrote:
http://www.uwex.edu/CES/flp/pp/pdf/punishmt.pdf

Parenting the Preschooler
Joan E. LeFebvre
Area Family Living Agent
University of Wisconsin-Extension
Vilas, Forest, Florence Counties

What the Research Says About Physical Punishment

Why do parents spank their children? According to
Murray Straus, a national family violence researcher,
the obvious answer is to correct misbehavior. But
another reason is that it's expected of them. In the
United States legal and social norms give parents the
right to use physical punishment to control and train
their children.

When my son, almost 4 years old, does something truly wrong, such as
wantonly hitting his 2-year-old brother, he deserves, and often gets,
a swat on his rear end. I think that teaches not that random hitting
is acceptable but that misbehavior has consequences. "Time-outs" are
often recommended as an alternative to spanking, but how do you
enforce a time-out if the child does not listen? Spanking is a
necessary last resort.

Ok, so you're trying to teach your kid not to hit by hitting him? And this
is going to work how?
If your son, at age 4, already doesn't listen to you giving him a time out
there's already a much bigger problem right there. Also, how do you punish
him if he doesn't just hit his brother, what if it escalates? Do you hit
harder? Do you hit more than once? Are you going to grab a wooden spoon or
make him get a twig? When do you stop and what do you do then?
You're very right, spanking is a last resort, because there's nothing to
top it.

Consider how this would affect the relationship of parents and
their teens, who are often too big to control by physical
force. The only real resource we have with teens is the
bank of goodwill created through parenting over the
years.

Really? In America, middle and upper class parents typically provide
their children a pretty comfortable life. Children owe their parents a
reasonable degree of obedience. Parents can take away some of the
goodies they provide, and in cases of extreme misbehavior, parents can
throw child out of the house. Teenagers need to understand that being
self-supporting is the condition of complete independence of parents'
rules.

No, I'm pretty sure, that even in the USA parents can't just throw a child
out of the house. I'm very sure it's not just a german thing that you
can't just move out of the custody of your parents or guardian before
you're 18.

I also don't think children _owe_ their parents respect and obedience. I
think we owe our children a supportive home and we owe them a violence
free upbringing. And then we can hope that our children will respect us
and our rules.

cu
nicole

I dont think obedience is even a useful goal to have for your child. I
prefer to teach judgement.

I dont think obedience is even a useful goal to have for your child. I
prefer to teach judgement.



I prefer that they obey until they learn judgment. There are rules for a
reason. If I tell my kids not to run in the road in front of cars I
would prefer they obey because the natural consequence of being hit by a
car is not something I am willing to risk. The whole talk to them and
eventually they will just do what is right because you talked their ear
off is bull.

Actually the consequence in my house for them not listening to me is we
don't go outside. They can not run into the road if I don't take them
out to play.

Tori

"Tori M" wrote in message
et...


I dont think obedience is even a useful goal to have for your child. I
prefer to teach judgement.

I prefer that they obey until they learn judgment. There are rules for a
reason. If I tell my kids not to run in the road in front of cars I would
prefer they obey because the natural consequence of being hit by a car is
not something I am willing to risk. The whole talk to them and eventually
they will just do what is right because you talked their ear off is bull.



Hmmm that is a fair amount of assuming I said things I did not say.

First definition of obedience that I found:

a.. the act of obeying; dutiful or submissive behavior with respect to
another person

My primary reason for this word is the word submission in the definition.
Obedience would be to *me* and my authority rather than sensibility of
whatever natural or logical consequences the child would meet. Sumbitting,
leaving their will at the door, is no part of parental discipline, in my
opinion. It is terrinly destructive.

A child who is likely to run in the road is not old enough to be near the
road unsupervised.


Actually the consequence in my house for them not listening to me is we
don't go outside. They can not run into the road if I don't take them out
to play.




Precisely. That is scaffolding learning. Talking is largely ineffective.

Tori

Stephanie wrote:
"Tori M" wrote in message
et...
I dont think obedience is even a useful goal to have for your child. I
prefer to teach judgement.
I prefer that they obey until they learn judgment. There are rules for a
reason. If I tell my kids not to run in the road in front of cars I would
prefer they obey because the natural consequence of being hit by a car is
not something I am willing to risk. The whole talk to them and eventually
they will just do what is right because you talked their ear off is bull.



Hmmm that is a fair amount of assuming I said things I did not say.

First definition of obedience that I found:

a.. the act of obeying; dutiful or submissive behavior with respect to
another person

My primary reason for this word is the word submission in the definition.
Obedience would be to *me* and my authority rather than sensibility of
whatever natural or logical consequences the child would meet. Sumbitting,
leaving their will at the door, is no part of parental discipline, in my
opinion. It is terrinly destructive.
I see obedience differently. A lady at church will tell her kids
Obedience is not agreement. Kids do not have to agree with what you
tell them to do for them to have to do it. If I tell Bonnie to pick up
her toys from the living room floor and she doesn't then that is her not
obeying. But then again in my home "Because I said so" is a perfectly
acceptable answer.

A child who is likely to run in the road is not old enough to be near the
road unsupervised.

They are not allowed outside without me and because they do not listen
to me when we do we do not go outside.

It does not bother me at all.. I burn easy and I do not enjoy most
weather conditions enough to miss it.. If we had a pool available
during the summer I would feel differently but I would not like the
stress of them near it at the moment.

Tori

By the way, it doesn't work very well.

If I tell my kids not to run in the road in front of cars I
would prefer they obey because the natural consequence of being hit by a
car is not something I am willing to risk.

Of course.

If your child is so young he lacks sufficient judgement, why is he
being allowed access to road traffic at all?

Are you not, as the parent, responsible for maintaining his safety,
even if it means fencing your yard, and putting a child proof latch on
the gate?

We are not allowed to stick up a fence. I would love to.. I can picture
it in my head. Not allowed. We are on a 15 mph road.. they go at least
30 when they get to my house. My 5 year old is 40 lbs if that.. I am
thinking a 30 mph car would win.

Or if younger, simply keeping him attached to you physically where you
are on foot in traffic?

The whole talk to them and
eventually they will just do what is right because you talked their ear
off is bull.

Of course. You are correct. Where did you get the idea that talking is
the only thing other than spanking you can teach a child with?

I taught my children to stay out of traffic, at the appropriate age,
with the infamous "flat possum" lesson. It's yukky, but when
accompanied by a little talk and a few questions, like, "... do you
think the little possum's mommy will miss him? Will the little possum
be able to play with his little possum friends again? Ever? Will his
daddy (this while on the way to the store for a treat) ever be able to
buy him an ice cream cone again?
Yes we taught them that if they play in the road they could become dead
and that Mommy and Daddy would be sad if they became dead. We also
explained that lesson about tying things to their necks. Maybe I am
paranoid after seeing a kid hit by a car in a driveway but I also do not
want them playing in my driveway.
We have a nice amount of lawn for 2 kids to play in and that is the only
place I want them. We go out, when they do not obey me we go back in.
They run towards the road we go in they get spanked and then we explain
why and reinforce it by reminding them that mommy and Daddy do not want
them Dead.

Oh and I am trying to figure out a way to work around the no Fence
rule.. maybe getting something that comes down when not in use or
something.. I don't know.

Tori

0:-] wrote:
On Mon, 09 Jul 2007 09:59:52 -0700, Beliavsky
wrote:

On Jul 9, 12:07 pm, "0:-]" wrote:
http://www.uwex.edu/CES/flp/pp/pdf/punishmt.pdf

Parenting the Preschooler
Joan E. LeFebvre
Area Family Living Agent
University of Wisconsin-Extension
Vilas, Forest, Florence Counties

What the Research Says About Physical Punishment

Why do parents spank their children? According to
Murray Straus, a national family violence researcher,
the obvious answer is to correct misbehavior. But
another reason is that it's expected of them. In the
United States legal and social norms give parents the
right to use physical punishment to control and train
their children.
When my son, almost 4 years old, does something truly wrong, such as
wantonly hitting his 2-year-old brother, he deserves, and often gets,
a swat on his rear end.

Logically that does not follow based on a child of four's capacity to
understand what he deserves or doesn't. At best I'd equate it with
animal training, and animal trainers, the best ones, have stopped,
quite some time ago, using pain as a training aid. Discomfort,
possibly, but not hitting.

Such as a scent that dogs don't like to teach them to stay off of some
area, in a 'safe' area. Works.

I think that teaches not that random hitting
is acceptable but that misbehavior has consequences.

A four year old, and even older is unlikely to see it as anything but
randomness. For instance, if you aren't in sight and don't know he
hit, he gets away with it. Thus he is being taught to behave when
there is a chance of getting caught. Just what despots are looking for
in thugs to use.

"Time-outs" are
often recommended as an alternative to spanking, but how do you
enforce a time-out if the child does not listen? Spanking is a
necessary last resort.

Time-outs are pointless. I do not believe in them. They do not get the
desired result all that often.

The trick is to do a 'time-in,' because do you not want the child to
both understand what they did, and to find out why they did it, (say
wanting little sister's toy, or YOUR affection when sister has been
getting it), and finally the alternative's the CHILD may use to get
what he desires in an appropriate way?

That IS what good citizenship is about. Getting your needs met without
intruding on other's rights.

Social skills.

Consider how this would affect the relationship of parents and
their teens, who are often too big to control by physical
force. The only real resource we have with teens is the
bank of goodwill created through parenting over the
years.
Really? In America, middle and upper class parents typically provide
their children a pretty comfortable life.

I'm not sure I see the connection.

Children owe their parents a
reasonable degree of obedience.

Children chose to be here, as YOUR child?

How can a child OWE anything at all? You can offer to TRADE with them,
so that you BOTH owe something, and thus you would be teaching them
the skills they need to function and flourish in society, as good
productive citizens.

The idea our child OWES us something because we GIVE him or her
something, such as life, needs closer examination against strict logic
and moral principles.

I cannot GIVE someone something, and then DEMAND they give something
in return, normally. It would be called coercion.

Parents can take away some of the
goodies they provide, and in cases of extreme misbehavior, parents can
throw child out of the house. Teenagers need to understand that being
self-supporting is the condition of complete independence of parents'
rules.

Before they are legally able to contract? Before they can own the
means of their own upkeep? Before they have the education to get a job
that would provide something near what they have with you?

It appears you do not respect them as human beings, and wish only to
oppress with a harshness YOU would not tolerate, and would have
someone arrested if they did those things to you.

If someone spanked you, would you not charge them with assault, and
could you not take them to civil court for both physical (if you
suffered any) and emotional damage and collect a large settlement?

I was spanked as a kid and I can tell you that I do not have resentment
to my mother for the spankings. I can also tell you I was a very good
child in general. I feel guilty very easy. It made me easy to correct.

And trust me, the child often, developmentally, goes through a period
of being little legal analysts, and will figure out both the skewed
logic and legal fiction perpetrated on them...and interestingly
enough, that realization comes at about the time we start having
really serious trouble with our teens. Or even preteens. Mostly by
nine or ten they have figured out our duplicities (remember when YOU
were a kid and caught on your parents were operating in a loop of, 'do
as I say not as I do?').

We know a family that had that issue with their oldest.. before they
decided spanking was ok and you didn't have to give them a say in
everything.

Tori

Tori M schrieb:
0:-] wrote:

If someone spanked you, would you not charge them with assault, and
could you not take them to civil court for both physical (if you
suffered any) and emotional damage and collect a large settlement?

I was spanked as a kid and I can tell you that I do not have resentment
to my mother for the spankings. I can also tell you I was a very good
child in general. I feel guilty very easy. It made me easy to correct.

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! So you're only passing along the bad judgment of your
parents! And because you feel guilty very easily it's a great way to get
you to stop things by spanking you. If you feel guilty so very easily
wouldn't it have been just as effective to tell you what you did wrong
and giving you a fair other kind of "punishment" have been just as
effective? Or would you, as a child, have preferred to be sent to your
room instead of being hit?

You probably know the saying "Revenge is a lazy form of grief". Are you
sure you're not just hitting because you were hit as a child and now
you're hitting your children because if you didn't it would mean your
parents were treating you wrong as a child and admitting that your
parents didn't parent you the best they could have, they parented the
easiest way they could have. Isn't that sad?

Also: Would you put up with your husband spanking you for stuff he
though you did wrong? Why not, after all, it worked when you were a
child, it works with your children... Where's the difference? Is it just
age that protects us from being hit?

And trust me, the child often, developmentally, goes through a period
of being little legal analysts, and will figure out both the skewed
logic and legal fiction perpetrated on them...and interestingly
enough, that realization comes at about the time we start having
really serious trouble with our teens. Or even preteens. Mostly by
nine or ten they have figured out our duplicities (remember when YOU
were a kid and caught on your parents were operating in a loop of, 'do
as I say not as I do?').

We know a family that had that issue with their oldest.. before they
decided spanking was ok and you didn't have to give them a say in
everything.

Yeah, break them! The little *******s! Don't let them think for
themselves. Ever!
Bad parenting is not an excuse for hurting the child you claim to love.

cu
nicole