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What the Research Says About Physical Punishment
On Jul 9, 12:07 pm, "0:-]" wrote:
http://www.uwex.edu/CES/flp/pp/pdf/punishmt.pdf Parenting the Preschooler Joan E. LeFebvre Area Family Living Agent University of Wisconsin-Extension Vilas, Forest, Florence Counties What the Research Says About Physical Punishment Why do parents spank their children? According to Murray Straus, a national family violence researcher, the obvious answer is to correct misbehavior. But another reason is that it's expected of them. In the United States legal and social norms give parents the right to use physical punishment to control and train their children. When my son, almost 4 years old, does something truly wrong, such as wantonly hitting his 2-year-old brother, he deserves, and often gets, a swat on his rear end. I think that teaches not that random hitting is acceptable but that misbehavior has consequences. "Time-outs" are often recommended as an alternative to spanking, but how do you enforce a time-out if the child does not listen? Spanking is a necessary last resort. Consider how this would affect the relationship of parents and their teens, who are often too big to control by physical force. The only real resource we have with teens is the bank of goodwill created through parenting over the years. Really? In America, middle and upper class parents typically provide their children a pretty comfortable life. Children owe their parents a reasonable degree of obedience. Parents can take away some of the goodies they provide, and in cases of extreme misbehavior, parents can throw child out of the house. Teenagers need to understand that being self-supporting is the condition of complete independence of parents' rules. |
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What the Research Says About Physical Punishment
"Beliavsky" wrote in message ps.com... On Jul 9, 12:07 pm, "0:-]" wrote: http://www.uwex.edu/CES/flp/pp/pdf/punishmt.pdf Parenting the Preschooler Joan E. LeFebvre Area Family Living Agent University of Wisconsin-Extension Vilas, Forest, Florence Counties What the Research Says About Physical Punishment Why do parents spank their children? According to Murray Straus, a national family violence researcher, the obvious answer is to correct misbehavior. But another reason is that it's expected of them. In the United States legal and social norms give parents the right to use physical punishment to control and train their children. When my son, almost 4 years old, does something truly wrong, such as wantonly hitting his 2-year-old brother, he deserves, and often gets, a swat on his rear end. I think that teaches not that random hitting is acceptable but that misbehavior has consequences. "Time-outs" are often recommended as an alternative to spanking, but how do you enforce a time-out if the child does not listen? Spanking is a necessary last resort. Unfortunately, you miss an opportunity to teach how to *properly* manage his frustrations or whatever feelings led to the whacking. He may well be behind the curve when the report card comes home with "manages feelings effectively." When the consequence is disconnected from the crime, as punishment necessariy is, then you risk winding up with a child who associates the behavior with the punishment rather with its inherent consequences. So rather than not doing itm, they become careful at doing the undesirably thing when someone in a position to punish cannot see. The two books referenced here both have excellent information on how to teach children appropriately, what Mrs Swift calls investment discipline. These are 2 great books. http://www.amazon.com/Discipline-Lif...4002232&sr=8-1 http://www.amazon.com/Positive-Disci...4002301&sr=8-3 Consider how this would affect the relationship of parents and their teens, who are often too big to control by physical force. The only real resource we have with teens is the bank of goodwill created through parenting over the years. Really? In America, middle and upper class parents typically provide their children a pretty comfortable life. Children owe their parents a reasonable degree of obedience. Parents can take away some of the goodies they provide, and in cases of extreme misbehavior, parents can throw child out of the house. Teenagers need to understand that being self-supporting is the condition of complete independence of parents' rules. |
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What the Research Says About Physical Punishment
Beliavsky schrieb:
On Jul 9, 12:07 pm, "0:-]" wrote: http://www.uwex.edu/CES/flp/pp/pdf/punishmt.pdf Parenting the Preschooler Joan E. LeFebvre Area Family Living Agent University of Wisconsin-Extension Vilas, Forest, Florence Counties What the Research Says About Physical Punishment Why do parents spank their children? According to Murray Straus, a national family violence researcher, the obvious answer is to correct misbehavior. But another reason is that it's expected of them. In the United States legal and social norms give parents the right to use physical punishment to control and train their children. When my son, almost 4 years old, does something truly wrong, such as wantonly hitting his 2-year-old brother, he deserves, and often gets, a swat on his rear end. I think that teaches not that random hitting is acceptable but that misbehavior has consequences. "Time-outs" are often recommended as an alternative to spanking, but how do you enforce a time-out if the child does not listen? Spanking is a necessary last resort. Ok, so you're trying to teach your kid not to hit by hitting him? And this is going to work how? If your son, at age 4, already doesn't listen to you giving him a time out there's already a much bigger problem right there. Also, how do you punish him if he doesn't just hit his brother, what if it escalates? Do you hit harder? Do you hit more than once? Are you going to grab a wooden spoon or make him get a twig? When do you stop and what do you do then? You're very right, spanking is a last resort, because there's nothing to top it. Consider how this would affect the relationship of parents and their teens, who are often too big to control by physical force. The only real resource we have with teens is the bank of goodwill created through parenting over the years. Really? In America, middle and upper class parents typically provide their children a pretty comfortable life. Children owe their parents a reasonable degree of obedience. Parents can take away some of the goodies they provide, and in cases of extreme misbehavior, parents can throw child out of the house. Teenagers need to understand that being self-supporting is the condition of complete independence of parents' rules. No, I'm pretty sure, that even in the USA parents can't just throw a child out of the house. I'm very sure it's not just a german thing that you can't just move out of the custody of your parents or guardian before you're 18. I also don't think children _owe_ their parents respect and obedience. I think we owe our children a supportive home and we owe them a violence free upbringing. And then we can hope that our children will respect us and our rules. cu nicole |
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What the Research Says About Physical Punishment
"NL" wrote in message ... Beliavsky schrieb: On Jul 9, 12:07 pm, "0:-]" wrote: http://www.uwex.edu/CES/flp/pp/pdf/punishmt.pdf Parenting the Preschooler Joan E. LeFebvre Area Family Living Agent University of Wisconsin-Extension Vilas, Forest, Florence Counties What the Research Says About Physical Punishment Why do parents spank their children? According to Murray Straus, a national family violence researcher, the obvious answer is to correct misbehavior. But another reason is that it's expected of them. In the United States legal and social norms give parents the right to use physical punishment to control and train their children. When my son, almost 4 years old, does something truly wrong, such as wantonly hitting his 2-year-old brother, he deserves, and often gets, a swat on his rear end. I think that teaches not that random hitting is acceptable but that misbehavior has consequences. "Time-outs" are often recommended as an alternative to spanking, but how do you enforce a time-out if the child does not listen? Spanking is a necessary last resort. Ok, so you're trying to teach your kid not to hit by hitting him? And this is going to work how? If your son, at age 4, already doesn't listen to you giving him a time out there's already a much bigger problem right there. Also, how do you punish him if he doesn't just hit his brother, what if it escalates? Do you hit harder? Do you hit more than once? Are you going to grab a wooden spoon or make him get a twig? When do you stop and what do you do then? You're very right, spanking is a last resort, because there's nothing to top it. Consider how this would affect the relationship of parents and their teens, who are often too big to control by physical force. The only real resource we have with teens is the bank of goodwill created through parenting over the years. Really? In America, middle and upper class parents typically provide their children a pretty comfortable life. Children owe their parents a reasonable degree of obedience. Parents can take away some of the goodies they provide, and in cases of extreme misbehavior, parents can throw child out of the house. Teenagers need to understand that being self-supporting is the condition of complete independence of parents' rules. No, I'm pretty sure, that even in the USA parents can't just throw a child out of the house. I'm very sure it's not just a german thing that you can't just move out of the custody of your parents or guardian before you're 18. I also don't think children _owe_ their parents respect and obedience. I think we owe our children a supportive home and we owe them a violence free upbringing. And then we can hope that our children will respect us and our rules. cu nicole I dont think obedience is even a useful goal to have for your child. I prefer to teach judgement. |
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What the Research Says About Physical Punishment
I dont think obedience is even a useful goal to have for your child. I prefer to teach judgement. I prefer that they obey until they learn judgment. There are rules for a reason. If I tell my kids not to run in the road in front of cars I would prefer they obey because the natural consequence of being hit by a car is not something I am willing to risk. The whole talk to them and eventually they will just do what is right because you talked their ear off is bull. Actually the consequence in my house for them not listening to me is we don't go outside. They can not run into the road if I don't take them out to play. Tori |
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What the Research Says About Physical Punishment
"Tori M" wrote in message et... I dont think obedience is even a useful goal to have for your child. I prefer to teach judgement. I prefer that they obey until they learn judgment. There are rules for a reason. If I tell my kids not to run in the road in front of cars I would prefer they obey because the natural consequence of being hit by a car is not something I am willing to risk. The whole talk to them and eventually they will just do what is right because you talked their ear off is bull. Hmmm that is a fair amount of assuming I said things I did not say. First definition of obedience that I found: a.. the act of obeying; dutiful or submissive behavior with respect to another person My primary reason for this word is the word submission in the definition. Obedience would be to *me* and my authority rather than sensibility of whatever natural or logical consequences the child would meet. Sumbitting, leaving their will at the door, is no part of parental discipline, in my opinion. It is terrinly destructive. A child who is likely to run in the road is not old enough to be near the road unsupervised. Actually the consequence in my house for them not listening to me is we don't go outside. They can not run into the road if I don't take them out to play. Precisely. That is scaffolding learning. Talking is largely ineffective. Tori |
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What the Research Says About Physical Punishment
Stephanie wrote:
"Tori M" wrote in message et... I dont think obedience is even a useful goal to have for your child. I prefer to teach judgement. I prefer that they obey until they learn judgment. There are rules for a reason. If I tell my kids not to run in the road in front of cars I would prefer they obey because the natural consequence of being hit by a car is not something I am willing to risk. The whole talk to them and eventually they will just do what is right because you talked their ear off is bull. Hmmm that is a fair amount of assuming I said things I did not say. First definition of obedience that I found: a.. the act of obeying; dutiful or submissive behavior with respect to another person My primary reason for this word is the word submission in the definition. Obedience would be to *me* and my authority rather than sensibility of whatever natural or logical consequences the child would meet. Sumbitting, leaving their will at the door, is no part of parental discipline, in my opinion. It is terrinly destructive. I see obedience differently. A lady at church will tell her kids Obedience is not agreement. Kids do not have to agree with what you tell them to do for them to have to do it. If I tell Bonnie to pick up her toys from the living room floor and she doesn't then that is her not obeying. But then again in my home "Because I said so" is a perfectly acceptable answer. A child who is likely to run in the road is not old enough to be near the road unsupervised. They are not allowed outside without me and because they do not listen to me when we do we do not go outside. It does not bother me at all.. I burn easy and I do not enjoy most weather conditions enough to miss it.. If we had a pool available during the summer I would feel differently but I would not like the stress of them near it at the moment. Tori |
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What the Research Says About Physical Punishment
By the way, it doesn't work very well. If I tell my kids not to run in the road in front of cars I would prefer they obey because the natural consequence of being hit by a car is not something I am willing to risk. Of course. If your child is so young he lacks sufficient judgement, why is he being allowed access to road traffic at all? Are you not, as the parent, responsible for maintaining his safety, even if it means fencing your yard, and putting a child proof latch on the gate? We are not allowed to stick up a fence. I would love to.. I can picture it in my head. Not allowed. We are on a 15 mph road.. they go at least 30 when they get to my house. My 5 year old is 40 lbs if that.. I am thinking a 30 mph car would win. Or if younger, simply keeping him attached to you physically where you are on foot in traffic? The whole talk to them and eventually they will just do what is right because you talked their ear off is bull. Of course. You are correct. Where did you get the idea that talking is the only thing other than spanking you can teach a child with? I taught my children to stay out of traffic, at the appropriate age, with the infamous "flat possum" lesson. It's yukky, but when accompanied by a little talk and a few questions, like, "... do you think the little possum's mommy will miss him? Will the little possum be able to play with his little possum friends again? Ever? Will his daddy (this while on the way to the store for a treat) ever be able to buy him an ice cream cone again? Yes we taught them that if they play in the road they could become dead and that Mommy and Daddy would be sad if they became dead. We also explained that lesson about tying things to their necks. Maybe I am paranoid after seeing a kid hit by a car in a driveway but I also do not want them playing in my driveway. We have a nice amount of lawn for 2 kids to play in and that is the only place I want them. We go out, when they do not obey me we go back in. They run towards the road we go in they get spanked and then we explain why and reinforce it by reminding them that mommy and Daddy do not want them Dead. Oh and I am trying to figure out a way to work around the no Fence rule.. maybe getting something that comes down when not in use or something.. I don't know. Tori |
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What the Research Says About Physical Punishment
0:-] wrote:
On Mon, 09 Jul 2007 09:59:52 -0700, Beliavsky wrote: On Jul 9, 12:07 pm, "0:-]" wrote: http://www.uwex.edu/CES/flp/pp/pdf/punishmt.pdf Parenting the Preschooler Joan E. LeFebvre Area Family Living Agent University of Wisconsin-Extension Vilas, Forest, Florence Counties What the Research Says About Physical Punishment Why do parents spank their children? According to Murray Straus, a national family violence researcher, the obvious answer is to correct misbehavior. But another reason is that it's expected of them. In the United States legal and social norms give parents the right to use physical punishment to control and train their children. When my son, almost 4 years old, does something truly wrong, such as wantonly hitting his 2-year-old brother, he deserves, and often gets, a swat on his rear end. Logically that does not follow based on a child of four's capacity to understand what he deserves or doesn't. At best I'd equate it with animal training, and animal trainers, the best ones, have stopped, quite some time ago, using pain as a training aid. Discomfort, possibly, but not hitting. Such as a scent that dogs don't like to teach them to stay off of some area, in a 'safe' area. Works. I think that teaches not that random hitting is acceptable but that misbehavior has consequences. A four year old, and even older is unlikely to see it as anything but randomness. For instance, if you aren't in sight and don't know he hit, he gets away with it. Thus he is being taught to behave when there is a chance of getting caught. Just what despots are looking for in thugs to use. "Time-outs" are often recommended as an alternative to spanking, but how do you enforce a time-out if the child does not listen? Spanking is a necessary last resort. Time-outs are pointless. I do not believe in them. They do not get the desired result all that often. The trick is to do a 'time-in,' because do you not want the child to both understand what they did, and to find out why they did it, (say wanting little sister's toy, or YOUR affection when sister has been getting it), and finally the alternative's the CHILD may use to get what he desires in an appropriate way? That IS what good citizenship is about. Getting your needs met without intruding on other's rights. Social skills. Consider how this would affect the relationship of parents and their teens, who are often too big to control by physical force. The only real resource we have with teens is the bank of goodwill created through parenting over the years. Really? In America, middle and upper class parents typically provide their children a pretty comfortable life. I'm not sure I see the connection. Children owe their parents a reasonable degree of obedience. Children chose to be here, as YOUR child? How can a child OWE anything at all? You can offer to TRADE with them, so that you BOTH owe something, and thus you would be teaching them the skills they need to function and flourish in society, as good productive citizens. The idea our child OWES us something because we GIVE him or her something, such as life, needs closer examination against strict logic and moral principles. I cannot GIVE someone something, and then DEMAND they give something in return, normally. It would be called coercion. Parents can take away some of the goodies they provide, and in cases of extreme misbehavior, parents can throw child out of the house. Teenagers need to understand that being self-supporting is the condition of complete independence of parents' rules. Before they are legally able to contract? Before they can own the means of their own upkeep? Before they have the education to get a job that would provide something near what they have with you? It appears you do not respect them as human beings, and wish only to oppress with a harshness YOU would not tolerate, and would have someone arrested if they did those things to you. If someone spanked you, would you not charge them with assault, and could you not take them to civil court for both physical (if you suffered any) and emotional damage and collect a large settlement? I was spanked as a kid and I can tell you that I do not have resentment to my mother for the spankings. I can also tell you I was a very good child in general. I feel guilty very easy. It made me easy to correct. And trust me, the child often, developmentally, goes through a period of being little legal analysts, and will figure out both the skewed logic and legal fiction perpetrated on them...and interestingly enough, that realization comes at about the time we start having really serious trouble with our teens. Or even preteens. Mostly by nine or ten they have figured out our duplicities (remember when YOU were a kid and caught on your parents were operating in a loop of, 'do as I say not as I do?'). We know a family that had that issue with their oldest.. before they decided spanking was ok and you didn't have to give them a say in everything. Tori |
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What the Research Says About Physical Punishment
Tori M schrieb:
0:-] wrote: If someone spanked you, would you not charge them with assault, and could you not take them to civil court for both physical (if you suffered any) and emotional damage and collect a large settlement? I was spanked as a kid and I can tell you that I do not have resentment to my mother for the spankings. I can also tell you I was a very good child in general. I feel guilty very easy. It made me easy to correct. Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! So you're only passing along the bad judgment of your parents! And because you feel guilty very easily it's a great way to get you to stop things by spanking you. If you feel guilty so very easily wouldn't it have been just as effective to tell you what you did wrong and giving you a fair other kind of "punishment" have been just as effective? Or would you, as a child, have preferred to be sent to your room instead of being hit? You probably know the saying "Revenge is a lazy form of grief". Are you sure you're not just hitting because you were hit as a child and now you're hitting your children because if you didn't it would mean your parents were treating you wrong as a child and admitting that your parents didn't parent you the best they could have, they parented the easiest way they could have. Isn't that sad? Also: Would you put up with your husband spanking you for stuff he though you did wrong? Why not, after all, it worked when you were a child, it works with your children... Where's the difference? Is it just age that protects us from being hit? And trust me, the child often, developmentally, goes through a period of being little legal analysts, and will figure out both the skewed logic and legal fiction perpetrated on them...and interestingly enough, that realization comes at about the time we start having really serious trouble with our teens. Or even preteens. Mostly by nine or ten they have figured out our duplicities (remember when YOU were a kid and caught on your parents were operating in a loop of, 'do as I say not as I do?'). We know a family that had that issue with their oldest.. before they decided spanking was ok and you didn't have to give them a say in everything. Yeah, break them! The little *******s! Don't let them think for themselves. Ever! Bad parenting is not an excuse for hurting the child you claim to love. cu nicole |
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