Bad mommy or cultural difference?

In article , Donna Metler says...


"Ericka Kammerer" wrote in message
...
Nikki wrote:

I think the OP should not be so hard on herself. She had a toddler
visiting a non-child proofed place for 10 days. It is no surprise at all
that she went a little crazy at the store and I think the OP handled it
perfectly fine.

The other thing that occurs to me is that those of us
who are really trying to be mannerly and who never want to be
one of "those" parents that all the other people tell stories
about when they're bemoaning the state of parenting today
*sometimes* take that whole thing too much to heart and
overreact trying to keep our kids from offering even the
slightest imagined offense.

I went to an early childhood music conference earlier this year, and one
suggestion was to have our parents recite:

In this class, I will not judge any other parent's parenting skills by the
behavior of the child, lest they judge my parenting by the behavior of mine!

Because invariably, even if your child has been a perfect angel, there will
come a day-and often a semester, when your child just is NOT cooperating,
and about all you can do is ride with the flow for awhile, and trust that
your child will become sweet again.


That's great. IF (as I think you said you do, different rooms or somehing...)
as the person in charge of the music school has some kind of setup or set of
seriously-taken rules where misbehaviors, normal or not, don't get in the way of
music lessons for other children. Or even make it difficult to wait for one's
own child's lessons.

Being tolerant is all fine and good until it gets to the point that what's
actually going on is an *in*tolerance for others' needs.

Banty (Two sides of the same coin.)

In article ,
cjra says...

On Jan 12, 5:52=A0pm, toypup wrote:
On Sat, 12 Jan 2008 18:21:34 -0500, Ericka Kammerer wrote:
Nikki wrote:

I think the OP should not be so hard on herself. =A0 She had a toddler
visiting a non-child proofed place for 10 days. =A0It is no surprise at=
all
that she went a little crazy at the store and I think the OP handled it=

perfectly fine.

tiny thing that doesn't go perfectly. =A0We'd all cut others
some slack if they were clearly trying to do the right thing,
especially in a place where it's not inappropriate to bring a
child. =A0(I.e., if you're somewhere the child doesn't belong in
the first place, then even a minor issue is a real problem, but
it's reasonable to expect the occasional minor disturbance in
a public place where young children *are* expected to be around.)

It's the people who don't cut others slack that are the most hypersensitiv=
e
to what others think.

I'm not so sure about that. Personally, I'm probably hypersensitive
because I've heard others complain about other kids,but I'm the first
one to offer a sympathetic hand to a parent struggling. Sometimes it's
just a sympathetic smile, sometimes it's actually helping (as I've
often done on planes with a mom travelling alone with kids). =A0


I agree. If you're very considerate as you are, you would also be very tolerant
of others (in other words, very considerate of their struggles and needs).

Two sides of the same coin.

Cheers,
Banty

In article , Donna Metler says...


"Banty" wrote in message
...
In article , Donna Metler
says...


"Ericka Kammerer" wrote in message
...
Nikki wrote:

I think the OP should not be so hard on herself. She had a toddler
visiting a non-child proofed place for 10 days. It is no surprise at
all
that she went a little crazy at the store and I think the OP handled it
perfectly fine.

The other thing that occurs to me is that those of us
who are really trying to be mannerly and who never want to be
one of "those" parents that all the other people tell stories
about when they're bemoaning the state of parenting today
*sometimes* take that whole thing too much to heart and
overreact trying to keep our kids from offering even the
slightest imagined offense.

I went to an early childhood music conference earlier this year, and one
suggestion was to have our parents recite:

In this class, I will not judge any other parent's parenting skills by the
behavior of the child, lest they judge my parenting by the behavior of
mine!

Because invariably, even if your child has been a perfect angel, there
will
come a day-and often a semester, when your child just is NOT cooperating,
and about all you can do is ride with the flow for awhile, and trust that
your child will become sweet again.


That's great. IF (as I think you said you do, different rooms or
somehing...)
as the person in charge of the music school has some kind of setup or set
of
seriously-taken rules where misbehaviors, normal or not, don't get in the
way of
music lessons for other children. Or even make it difficult to wait for
one's
own child's lessons.

Being tolerant is all fine and good until it gets to the point that what's
actually going on is an *in*tolerance for others' needs.

Banty (Two sides of the same coin.)

We have a waiting room, and an observation room, so if a child starts acting
out, we can immediately send them out of the room to their parents, or, in a
parent/child class, have the parent take the child out, to the waiting room,
which, for at least the first 30 minutes or so won't have anyone in it (the
last 10-15 minutes you might have parents coming in for the next class-but
usually if a child melts down that close to the end, you just take them
home). And I know that I'm not shy about telling a parent that their child
needs time out of the room. I've also had children for whom the policy was
that when they start acting out, they go outside with an adult and run
around the building, before coming back in.

Please note that our oldest students are 5-6 yrs old, so really, we're
talking about babies, toddlers, and preschoolers. We also have a set policy
on the books on breastfeeding (basically, if your baby needs it, go for it,
and don't feel self conscious, but after age 2, we don't allow food or drink
in the classrooms, but the waiting room is available), which isn't something
most studio policies address.

Most ECED music programs have at least a 2 room setup-it's just not rational
to expect that you won't have crying babies, tantrumming toddlers, and
preschoolers who just plain need to be away from an audience for awhile, and
the 3 room setup that we have is de rigeur for lab-school type programs that
regularly have observers other than parents.

Yes, that's the kind of thing I'm talking about, and it's all good. Yes, of
course crying and tantrumming happens; the problem isn't that it happens, or
even that it happens in public - the problem comes in when nothing is being done
about it.

Others may say it all costs money yadda yadda, but even in a bare-bones
environment, it takes a little bit of aware management and enough self-security
not to think the whole enterprise will go down the tubes because asking for a
child to be taken to another place PO's some parent who can't see past his or
her nose.

Banty

"cjra" wrote in message
...


Nikki wrote:

It is also my second boy that is going to do us in. Extremely
persistent and intense.

My littles are a mess mostly. All over the place.

I think the OP should not be so hard on herself. She had a toddler
visiting a non-child proofed place for 10 days. It is no surprise at all
that she went a little crazy at the store and I think the OP handled it
perfectly fine.

Ah, thank you for saying that. It makes me feel better it was a
stressful time anyway compounded by some personal health issues
(posted on mkp) which had me on edge. That said dh says I am always
too sensitive and worried about such things, which may be true.

Your welcome. I'm glad the health issues were resolved - how scary.

Honestly, I thought this thread was a little bit silly. I'm surprise that
anyone really thinks that 10 minutes of trying to deal with a slightly hyper
toddler in a store like that is to much especially given the weather. A
screaming tantruming toddler I would say yes but not what you describe. In
church or a restaurant - perhaps but not in a store like that. I have a
hard time thinking her behavior actually bothered anyone or interfered with
what they were trying to do there. There may have been people there that
would say they were put out but honestly I think that is just
self-righteousness because your kid wasn't perched quietly on your hip, not
because what the child was doing was actually affecting them any. JMO. It
is probably a good thing I don't travel abroad . I find it so
interesting. I used to come in contact with tour buses of people from other
countries all the time and they were anything but quiet and reserved.


--
Nikki, mama to
Hunter 4/99
Luke 4/01
Brock 4/06
Ben 4/06

"Chookie" wrote in message
news:ehrebeniuk-42B2CB.21494115012008@news...
In article , Banty
wrote:

Or the music school administrators or teachers and she had a discussion
in
private, and she didn't sign up to the changes they required.

Quite possibly. For the last two lessons, she sat OUTSIDE with the
daughter
(remember that parents are supposed to be present for this class). I
suggested quietly to the teacher that she's better put a stop to that, and
to
ask the advice of the boss. For one thing, I thought that there might be
an
insurance requirement for the parent's presence, and for another, I could
see
her gradually coming to think that this was fine, and ultimately, that
dumping
the kids and running would be fine too.

OTOH as she was sitting outside 'supervising' her daughter with her eyes
closed, I still think nervous breakdown was on the cards :-(

Well, personally, I don't allow children in my parent-participation classes
to attend without a parent, and if they have a sibling who is out of the age
range, the sibling can only attend if they're a) so young that they can be
happy in a carseat, stroller, or sling most of the time (usually below 6
months) or b) old enough that they can sit in the back of the room and amuse
themselves without problem (usually school aged kids, mostly homeschooled)
We have a divided off section specificially for this purpose, since I don't
want unattended children in my waiting room, and if they're in my room I
have much more direct control of their behavior. While we will have
occasional days with more siblings (days that many preschools or
kindergartens are closed for some reason, but the University isn't), usually
the only siblings we have in class are older, homeschooled children who are
very well behaved (although I suspect very little of the workbooks that they
bring with them get done-usually they're more interested in watching the
class)

If a parent has two children in the 0-5 age range, we offer a family class
designed for siblings of different ages to come together, and a parent who
tries to come into a baby class with her 3 yr old will be referred to that
class.

And one benefit of having a waiting list-we have no problem whatsoever with
telling a parent that our program cannot meet their needs at this time-which
is what a parent who's child was dismantling the room would be told.

"www.china-seller.com"
wrote in message
news:...

cjra;489667 Wrote:
Or do I just have a weird 18 month old??? All this time I thought she
was perfectly normal.

Recently we were in MediaMarkt in Switzerland (kind of the equivalent
of Best Buy in the US), just after Christmas. Place is packed.

My 18 month old was going nuts. Not whining or crying, but she
couldn't stay still. She wouldn't stay in my arms, she had to go
everywhere, pick everything up, etc. I moved her away from the CD
section (where DH was trying to find some cds), to the TV section.
Now, she's not one to be very interested in TV anyway, but she was
enthralled. Alas, it wasn't in such a way that she sat quietly staring
at the big screens. Now, she wanted to touch every one of them, crawl
up the stands, etc.

Now, I didn't let her. I spent what seemed like ages (probably 10
mins) chasing her, pulling her back, telling her no a bazillion times,
adding an 'explanation' about why we don't touch that, etc etc. Until
I finally told DH we were going outside, no matter than it's -4C,
until he finished (I should add that I loathe these stores anyway).

However, I looked around and saw all these other kids, all within +/-
6 months of DD's age, either sitting quietly in their parents arms, or
sitting calmly staring at the TVs. And of course they all kept glaring
at me (yelling in my American accent "NO!" over and over again) I felt
like a horrible mom who can't control her toddler and wondered what it
was about these Swiss kids that makes them all so calm?!

DD blends right in with all our friends' kids at homes and parties,
but I've never seen their kids at stores.


She sounds perfectly normal to me, perhaps even quieter than most if you
survived ten days in a non-child proofed home!
Anyway, I know plenty of active swiss toddlers, even had one of those
myself. And there's no way I'd have taken my second daughter shopping in
those conditions if I had any choice- MediaMarkt is a popular store for CDs,
DVDs, computeurs, household appliances... that is, mostly non-essentials
that you can plan for, no have-to-go-shopping-now-or-we-don't-eat situations
here. Most of the local toddlers you saw were definitly self-selected for
quietness, or reliably asleep; all the more normal ones were probably in the
park with the other parent or off-loaded on grandma (if you were at the
MediaMarkt next to Geneva airport, there's a nice park less than two minutes
away ).

I can't tell you if the swiss would be stricter about public behaviour than
americans, as most of my experience of american toddlers in america is
through misc.kids . Over here I'd say the general attitude is that
toddler behaviour is to be expected, but if it's very disruptive you'd be
expected to do something about it even if did start a tantrum. For instance,
in your example you would't
let a toddler pull all the CDs out of the display or run around screeching,
but it doesn't sound as if your daughter was doing anything particlarly
obnoxious. I've left puppet shows when my daughter was behaving the way you
describe, because running around is disturbing to others watching the show.
There's no way MediaMarkt in the after-Christmas sales can compare to that
situation!

Jo (feeling a bit envious of your nice warm winters today)

In article , Banty
wrote:

Or the music school administrators or teachers and she had a discussion in
private, and she didn't sign up to the changes they required.

Quite possibly. For the last two lessons, she sat OUTSIDE with the daughter
(remember that parents are supposed to be present for this class). I
suggested quietly to the teacher that she's better put a stop to that, and to
ask the advice of the boss. For one thing, I thought that there might be an
insurance requirement for the parent's presence, and for another, I could see
her gradually coming to think that this was fine, and ultimately, that dumping
the kids and running would be fine too.

OTOH as she was sitting outside 'supervising' her daughter with her eyes
closed, I still think nervous breakdown was on the cards :-(

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

http://chookiesbackyard.blogspot.com/

jos wrote:

She sounds perfectly normal to me, perhaps even quieter than most if you
survived ten days in a non-child proofed home!
Anyway, I know plenty of active swiss toddlers, even had one of those
myself. And there's no way I'd have taken my second daughter shopping in
those conditions if I had any choice- MediaMarkt is a popular store for CDs,
DVDs, computeurs, household appliances... that is, mostly non-essentials
that you can plan for, no have-to-go-shopping-now-or-we-don't-eat situations
here.

Yeah I avoid taking her to the US equivalent, but when we're in CH we
often have a tight schedule between visits and shopping for things we
can't
get in the US (we always have a big list), so leaving her behind is
not always possible.

That said DH also likes to do things "as a family" which is nice in
theory but I have often had to argue that needn't apply to shopping!


Most of the local toddlers you saw were definitly self-selected for
quietness, or reliably asleep; all the more normal ones were probably in the
park with the other parent or off-loaded on grandma (if you were at the
MediaMarkt next to Geneva airport, there's a nice park less than two minutes
away ).



Now that makes me feel much better!

It was the MediaMrkt that's on the highway near Luasanne -heading
north to Yverdon.

I can't tell you if the swiss would be stricter about public behaviour than
americans, as most of my experience of american toddlers in america is
through misc.kids . Over here I'd say the general attitude is that
toddler behaviour is to be expected, but if it's very disruptive you'd be
expected to do something about it even if did start a tantrum. For instance,


I think in general it's the same in the US

in your example you would't
let a toddler pull all the CDs out of the display

Well, she started doing this. She'd pull one off and hand it to me,
then another, and another. That's why we split up and moved her out of
the Cd section.

or run around screeching,
but it doesn't sound as if your daughter was doing anything particlarly
obnoxious.

No she wasn't running screeching. In fact she was reasonably quiet
except when I tried to hold her still. She just wanted to touch every
TV screen she saw...


I've left puppet shows when my daughter was behaving the way you
describe, because running around is disturbing to others watching the show.
There's no way MediaMarkt in the after-Christmas sales can compare to that
situation!

Yeah I don't think she was disturbing to other patrons exactly but I
doubt the staff appreciated her touching stuff, which is why I was
trying to stop her.


Jo (feeling a bit envious of your nice warm winters today)

Well it's yucky rainy today