Bad mommy or cultural difference?

Banty wrote:
In article , Ericka Kammerer
says...
Banty wrote:

Well, life doesn't always afford all these choices.
If I had to go, I'd prepare the best I could and go. If I could
avoid, I'd avoid. Sometimes things blow up despite your best
efforts, and then you're between a rock and a hard place and you
have to choose between the quick and very noisy exit or the
slower and less noisy attempt to distract/redirect. When
you've got a difficult kid to deal with, you don't always have
predictable outcomes, and you can't sit at home and never venture
into public until you can guarantee that there will never be
an outburst despite your best preparations. You have to make the
best judgment calls you can, and then handle whatever comes up as
best you can. I just don't think there's any easy, pat answer
that creates a guarantee that you will never inconvenience anyone
else. And again IIRC, the OP was on vacation and not even on her
home turf (so preparation opportunities may have been limited) and
her child is very young (so they may just be learning about some
of these little personality traits, if they are in fact personality
traits and not the result of jet lag or an unfamiliar environment
or what have you).
The world ain't perfect. We all have an obligation to
try to minimize negative impacts on other people (and sitting on
your butt calling out to your child and giving up when that doesn't
work clearly doesn't constitute a serious effort in that direction),
but as far as I can tell, that's a far cry from the OP's situation,
where mom was trying hard and simply may have made a small error in
timing the hasty exit. After all, OP tried holding (didn't work),
tried hands on redirecting/distracting/advising (didn't work), and
then moved on to removal. Seems reasonable, with the only question
being whether the process moved along quickly enough or whether mom
could have predicted the situation in advance and laid in some
preventive measures. All in all, not too shabby a response for
a first time parent of a very young child, IMO.


Yes yes yes sure sure sure.

That's what everyone says and fits in with expectations around here. And, yes,
there's truth to it.

But consider the case of using car seats. All of the above (kids with different
tempraments, parents doing the best they can, life not being so neat, blah blah
blah blah blah...) can be applied to whether or not a kid can be put into a car
seat.

But most of us treat *that* as a non-negotiable. Kid. Seat. Put. In. Stay.
Wail all you want. Period. And it works thereby.

Again, not so clean cut. There are folks who wrestle their
kid into a carseat every time they get into the car. Yes, most kids
will submit once they get the picture that it's non-negotiable. Others
will keep "negotiating." Furthermore, the carseat has an advantage in
that the straps don't get tired and the latch can resist considerable
stress. And if the kid is screaming, the only people inconvenienced
are those in the car. If you're trying to hold onto a screaming,
struggling kid in a store, none of the above are true.

I submit parents can and do treat other points of behavior and discipline with a
similar attitude, in some other cultures. As well as here - depends on the
family background and parent(s).

I clipped it by accident, but I can't imagine any physical difference between
Swiss women in their pregnancies that would make a difference in the tempraments
of their children vs. American children.

Babies in utero (after about half way through the pregnancy,
once the senses start coming online) *experience* the world and
culture in which their mother exists. They begin to learn. They
hear stimuli, and experience their mother's responses to those
stimuli. In a culture that is less noisy, or more calm, or
what have you, those experiences are different for the baby in
utero. Behavior can be learned and shaped before the baby is
born. One good lay book on the subject is Wirth's _Prenatal
Parenting_. In addition, there are researchers who posit actual
genetic differences that relate to temperament. Given that
there are cultural temperamental differences observable from
birth, you pretty much have to figure they're either inborn/
genetic or that they're a result of the in utero environment!
Researchers seem to think it's a little of both.

Best wishes,
Ericka

In article , Ericka Kammerer
says...

Banty wrote:
In article , Ericka Kammerer
says...
Banty wrote:

Well, life doesn't always afford all these choices.
If I had to go, I'd prepare the best I could and go. If I could
avoid, I'd avoid. Sometimes things blow up despite your best
efforts, and then you're between a rock and a hard place and you
have to choose between the quick and very noisy exit or the
slower and less noisy attempt to distract/redirect. When
you've got a difficult kid to deal with, you don't always have
predictable outcomes, and you can't sit at home and never venture
into public until you can guarantee that there will never be
an outburst despite your best preparations. You have to make the
best judgment calls you can, and then handle whatever comes up as
best you can. I just don't think there's any easy, pat answer
that creates a guarantee that you will never inconvenience anyone
else. And again IIRC, the OP was on vacation and not even on her
home turf (so preparation opportunities may have been limited) and
her child is very young (so they may just be learning about some
of these little personality traits, if they are in fact personality
traits and not the result of jet lag or an unfamiliar environment
or what have you).
The world ain't perfect. We all have an obligation to
try to minimize negative impacts on other people (and sitting on
your butt calling out to your child and giving up when that doesn't
work clearly doesn't constitute a serious effort in that direction),
but as far as I can tell, that's a far cry from the OP's situation,
where mom was trying hard and simply may have made a small error in
timing the hasty exit. After all, OP tried holding (didn't work),
tried hands on redirecting/distracting/advising (didn't work), and
then moved on to removal. Seems reasonable, with the only question
being whether the process moved along quickly enough or whether mom
could have predicted the situation in advance and laid in some
preventive measures. All in all, not too shabby a response for
a first time parent of a very young child, IMO.


Yes yes yes sure sure sure.

That's what everyone says and fits in with expectations around here. And, yes,
there's truth to it.

But consider the case of using car seats. All of the above (kids with different
tempraments, parents doing the best they can, life not being so neat, blah blah
blah blah blah...) can be applied to whether or not a kid can be put into a car
seat.

But most of us treat *that* as a non-negotiable. Kid. Seat. Put. In. Stay.
Wail all you want. Period. And it works thereby.

Again, not so clean cut. There are folks who wrestle their
kid into a carseat every time they get into the car. Yes, most kids
will submit once they get the picture that it's non-negotiable. Others
will keep "negotiating." Furthermore, the carseat has an advantage in
that the straps don't get tired and the latch can resist considerable
stress. And if the kid is screaming, the only people inconvenienced
are those in the car. If you're trying to hold onto a screaming,
struggling kid in a store, none of the above are true.

Sure *some* kids will continue to be difficult (I suspect Swiss parents with
such would be more likely to not take them in the public for those years vs.
American parents), but don't we both advise people to take car seats for
airplane rides because kids are more used to confinement in them. I think most
kids do acquiesce to staying in the car seat, having realized there's no other
real option, who otherwise would be running around. Similarly with other points
of public behavior.

When I was a kid, I and my siblings were made to *sit with our hands folded* in
a public place while waiting, and we did. Although we're pretty antsy and
anti-autoritarian by nature I think.

It's a matter of degree. Sure, folks here looove to assert the hard cases and
how ever parent having difficulty should be presumed to be dealing with a hard
case. But I think there's a heck of a lot more kids running around with parents
ineffectually saying "NO" than there are true hard cases.


I submit parents can and do treat other points of behavior and discipline with a
similar attitude, in some other cultures. As well as here - depends on the
family background and parent(s).

I clipped it by accident, but I can't imagine any physical difference between
Swiss women in their pregnancies that would make a difference in the tempraments
of their children vs. American children.

Babies in utero (after about half way through the pregnancy,
once the senses start coming online) *experience* the world and
culture in which their mother exists. They begin to learn. They
hear stimuli, and experience their mother's responses to those
stimuli. In a culture that is less noisy, or more calm, or
what have you, those experiences are different for the baby in
utero. Behavior can be learned and shaped before the baby is
born. One good lay book on the subject is Wirth's _Prenatal
Parenting_. In addition, there are researchers who posit actual
genetic differences that relate to temperament. Given that
there are cultural temperamental differences observable from
birth, you pretty much have to figure they're either inborn/
genetic or that they're a result of the in utero environment!
Researchers seem to think it's a little of both.

::sigh::

I'm not arguing that! What is it specifically about SWISS vs. AMERICAN parents
and cultures that you think would manifest this kind of difference?? We have (I
presume) pretty much middle class mixed-European genetic backgrounds in Europe
vs. ditto in America. What is the difference here? Time zone??

Or are you really arguing Swiss are quieter so they have quieter kids just by
being quiet?

We should be quieter, then ;-)

Banty

Cjra seems to assume the glares were for her child's behavior. My
main point is that the glares could be for her own behavior
(specifically, her "tell, yell, yell, yell..." technique).

Pologirl

On Jan 6, 8:09 am, Banty wrote:
In article ,
cjra says...





Or do I just have a weird 18 month old??? All this time I thought she
was perfectly normal.

Recently we were in MediaMarkt in Switzerland (kind of the equivalent
of Best Buy in the US), just after Christmas. Place is packed.

My 18 month old was going nuts. Not whining or crying, but she
couldn't stay still. She wouldn't stay in my arms, she had to go
everywhere, pick everything up, etc. I moved her away from the CD
section (where DH was trying to find some cds), to the TV section.
Now, she's not one to be very interested in TV anyway, but she was
enthralled. Alas, it wasn't in such a way that she sat quietly staring
at the big screens. Now, she wanted to touch every one of them, crawl
up the stands, etc.

Now, I didn't let her. I spent what seemed like ages (probably 10
mins) chasing her, pulling her back, telling her no a bazillion times,
adding an 'explanation' about why we don't touch that, etc etc. Until
I finally told DH we were going outside, no matter than it's -4C,
until he finished (I should add that I loathe these stores anyway).

However, I looked around and saw all these other kids, all within +/-
6 months of DD's age, either sitting quietly in their parents arms, or
sitting calmly staring at the TVs. And of course they all kept glaring
at me (yelling in my American accent "NO!" over and over again) I felt
like a horrible mom who can't control her toddler and wondered what it
was about these Swiss kids that makes them all so calm?!

DD blends right in with all our friends' kids at homes and parties,
but I've never seen their kids at stores.

OK, shoot me, but I've noticed that American moms just plain won't, just won't
won't won't, for some unexaplainable reason - - -

*pick the toddler up and just plain hold them so they don't get into trouble*.
American moms call, European moms go and get the kid. (I also note northern
Europeans are quieter than Americans about public behavior, maybe that's a
factor.)

I picked her up to stop her a bazillion times too. She calms, then she
kicks and squirms because she needs to move around and I put her down
for a few minutes. Enough times of that I finally took her outside.

The sling used to work to calm her down - I'd pick her up, put her in
the sling, all calm. Doesn't work anymore.

I'm not so sure about 'quieter' - I know someone who consistently
shouts at their kids - you're more likely to hear the mom shout at the
kids to be quiet than to actually hear the kids.

On Jan 6, 2:48 pm, Banty wrote:
In article , Ericka Kammerer
says...





Banty wrote:

Possibly, the more naturally quiet Swiss kids were the ones sitting, and more
rambunctious Swiss kids were being held or in strollers I mean, I truly
don't think the Swiss (or the Japanese, etc. etc.) are lacking in tempramental
variety in their kids. It's that, just like with car seats, certain strategies
are set in place firmly and early.

Actually, I think there is some evidence that there are
temperamental/personality traits that do vary somewhat with
race/culture/etc. Obviously, those are probably things like
sex differences, where the distributions overlap, but apparently
there are differences. They may not be genetic (may be due
to the environment in utero), but seem to be observable from
birth.

The *Swiss*? Would be different diet-wise from Americans how? Should we load
up on cheese and chocolate?? I'm skeptical, honestly.





Heck - *I'm* overstimulated at Best Buy I hate that place.

Well, yeah, me too. We avoid it like the plague.

My neighbor with three boys would call out to her boy to come when I was
visiting on the porch; he'd ignore her, then she'd look at me with this look and
hand gesture "see what I have to deal with??". One time I actually did tell her
"well, just go GET HIM"

I do agree that there are folks who seem bewildered that
their kids don't arrive under voice control. On the other hand,
it doesn't sound to me like the OP was expecting her child to
be under voice control and throwing up her hands when that didn't
work. I think she was just trying various strategies to
figure out what *would* work.

Nope. Just wouldn't go and *get* the kid. I've seen it elsewhere, too, like
the OP.

Actually, as I stated I *did* go and get the kid, held her long enough
to calm her, but she was in her "I need to move and can't be confined"
stage. I didn't take her outside immediately - as I would have done at
home - because it was so cold outside.

On Jan 7, 8:11 am, Ericka Kammerer wrote:
Banty wrote:


But most of us treat *that* as a non-negotiable. Kid. Seat. Put. In. Stay.
Wail all you want. Period. And it works thereby.

Again, not so clean cut. There are folks who wrestle their
kid into a carseat every time they get into the car. Yes, most kids
will submit once they get the picture that it's non-negotiable. Others
will keep "negotiating." Furthermore, the carseat has an advantage in
that the straps don't get tired and the latch can resist considerable
stress. And if the kid is screaming, the only people inconvenienced
are those in the car. If you're trying to hold onto a screaming,
struggling kid in a store, none of the above are true.

That would be DD. She hates the car seats. She struggles and fights it
(and has since birth), and typically screams through the entire car
trip. (Now, she's otherwise a very happy, easy child, but the car seat
= torture chamber for her)

She used to be ok in the stroller, but now she fights that too. She
very quickly squirms her way out of it if I'm not fast enough latching
her in. Fortunately, she will usually calm down after a few minutes if
I let her go ahead and scream (I wish that worked with the car seat),
but I won't do that in a public place as I just don't think it's fair
to others to listen to my kid scream like a banshee. If we're on our
own, then I let her.

That said, European stores in general are not really stroller-equipped
(and this store definitely didn't have carts). Aisles are typically
too narrow for a stroller. At home we typically avoid such stores
(partly because I hate them), or I spend time with her outside. This
wasn't a reasonable option at the time for a variety of reasons, nor
was leaving her at home.

Shopping carts have now become an ordeal too...she used to be quite
happy sitting in a shopping cart usually with a toy or some food to
occupy her, not so anymore....

In article ,
Pologirl says...

Cjra seems to assume the glares were for her child's behavior. My
main point is that the glares could be for her own behavior
(specifically, her "tell, yell, yell, yell..." technique).

Pologirl

Yeah. Fit with the big noisy American type probably.

It's irritating on this side of the pond, too, though.

Banty

In article ,
cjra says...

On Jan 6, 2:48 pm, Banty wrote:
In article , Ericka Kammerer
says...





Banty wrote:

Possibly, the more naturally quiet Swiss kids were the ones sitting, and more
rambunctious Swiss kids were being held or in strollers I mean, I truly
don't think the Swiss (or the Japanese, etc. etc.) are lacking in tempramental
variety in their kids. It's that, just like with car seats, certain
strategies
are set in place firmly and early.

Actually, I think there is some evidence that there are
temperamental/personality traits that do vary somewhat with
race/culture/etc. Obviously, those are probably things like
sex differences, where the distributions overlap, but apparently
there are differences. They may not be genetic (may be due
to the environment in utero), but seem to be observable from
birth.

The *Swiss*? Would be different diet-wise from Americans how? Should we load
up on cheese and chocolate?? I'm skeptical, honestly.





Heck - *I'm* overstimulated at Best Buy I hate that place.

Well, yeah, me too. We avoid it like the plague.

My neighbor with three boys would call out to her boy to come when I was
visiting on the porch; he'd ignore her, then she'd look at me with this look
and
hand gesture "see what I have to deal with??". One time I actually did tell
her
"well, just go GET HIM"

I do agree that there are folks who seem bewildered that
their kids don't arrive under voice control. On the other hand,
it doesn't sound to me like the OP was expecting her child to
be under voice control and throwing up her hands when that didn't
work. I think she was just trying various strategies to
figure out what *would* work.

Nope. Just wouldn't go and *get* the kid. I've seen it elsewhere, too, like
the OP.

Actually, as I stated I *did* go and get the kid, held her long enough
to calm her, but she was in her "I need to move and can't be confined"
stage. I didn't take her outside immediately - as I would have done at
home - because it was so cold outside.

Well, first of all don't misunderstand - I do think *expectations* are different
here vs. there.

In your particular case of course I can't say what difference there would be if
you were Swiss and had different expectations from the get go. (Or if you had a
nice quiet Swiss uterus ;-)

But -4C ain't so cold. You could have taken here outside or considered changing
your plans completely.

Banty

On Jan 7, 8:43 am, Pologirl wrote:
Cjra seems to assume the glares were for her child's behavior. My
main point is that the glares could be for her own behavior
(specifically, her "tell, yell, yell, yell..." technique).

Pologirl


Actually, I assumed the glares were for my behaviour as the 'ugly
American'.

"Yelling" is not the right term - more like speaking strongly as
opposed to a 'sweet gentle voice'. The place was quite loud, the only
people to hear would have been in close proximity.

DD does understand "No." It does help her to learn if I also explain
why. For example, we have some kitchen cupboards that are off limits,
others that she can play with. She started going to the off limits
cupboard - I said "NO. Shut that door. You don't play in there." SHe
looked at me and shut the door. 1 minute later she opened it again, we
went through this a few times before she finally got it. Does she
understand the why of it? I doubt it, but I hope in time she will
understand - because not all cupboards are off limits, and she needs
some guidance to understand why some are and why some are not.

I think part of the problem is that at home, she has plenty of space
for her. I have to keep close tabs on her, but truly dangerous stuff
or easily damaged stuff is out of her reach, and other things which
she's not supposed to play with but can't get hurt if she does (eg the
books) she's learning not to play with. At this point, however, we'd
spent 10 days in a small house with *everything* potentially dangerous/
damaged, with FIL not at all accustomed to little hands and me having
to constantly move stuff away from her - eg the knives he kept leaving
on the counter top just in her reach.....

I did have other things for her to play with at the store, and kept
distracting her with those. Alas, it didn't work when there was much
more interesting things to touch. I didn't feel comfortable having her
touch the TV screens - 1. I wasn't sure how stably attached they were,
2. I'm not convinced she couldn't damage them.

On Jan 6, 12:57 pm, Ericka Kammerer wrote:
Banty wrote:
OK, shoot me, but I've noticed that American moms just plain won't, just won't
won't won't, for some unexaplainable reason - - -

*pick the toddler up and just plain hold them so they don't get into trouble*.
American moms call, European moms go and get the kid. (I also note northern
Europeans are quieter than Americans about public behavior, maybe that's a
factor.)

You too! Why chase? Why *explain*? What's *with* all that stuff?

Now, maybe yours would struggle about it, but, if she were used to this, likely
she wouldn't.

I think, as with just about everything, it really depends
on the child. My first two were very un-touchy kids. They *really*
didn't want to be held (if I got a cuddle, it was time to start
wondering why the kid wasn't feeling good). They did not want to
be held for any length of time. Still, in a pinch, if I needed to
restrain them or keep them out of something I could pick them up
for at least some period of time.
With DD, on the other hand, if my goal is to limit
disturbing others, grabbing her is probably the last thing on
the list to do (immediately prior to hauling her out of the
place on the double). Not only would she struggle, but she'd
be screaming at the top of her lungs while doing so. It's just
the way she is, and always has been. Even before she could walk,
if she *had* to be carried, she wanted to be carried with the
least restriction and contact possible. And kids like her can
do the same "boneless" thing that cats can do when they don't
want to be held. It's like trying to hold onto a greased pig.

LOL at greased pig. Yes, that is DD. But this is fairly new. The car
seat has always been an issue, but the refusing to be held-needing to
touch everything phase is *very* recent. She's only *just* learned to
walk, so there's a whole new world for her to explore.


Now, that does make her a much more challenging child to
deal with in a public space. Personally, I avoid taking her
to places like Best Buy where she's going to be bored and
overstimulated (and likely to race around as a result).

That's the usual option. In this case it wasn't practical. Although I
swore to DH we were never going there again (which is why *I* don't go
to Best Buy in the US - altho I swore that pre-DD). The place was
packed, so it was even more difficult - or rather I couldn't let her
roam *at all* without getting into someone's way. I suspect if I had
let her roam a bit more, she would have gotten bored with the TVs
faster.


If I can't avoid it, I'll try for a cart or stroller (with
a seatbelt, or better yet, a five-point harness) and keep
the trip short. If I have to take her somewhere that she
needs to be restrained for a goodly amount of time, then
I need a stroller/cart/whatever with a harness *and* a
fairly steady stream of laptop amusements or I might just
as well bang my head against a brick wall for all the luck
I'll have keeping her quiet and out of trouble.

The stroller would not have fit in the store - even the small umbrella
stroller we had. But she's taken to kicking and screaming about that
too. We spent a lot of time with me 'talking' about the TV - ie
entertaining her, or trying to, by interacting with her "Oooh, look at
the pretty animals. See, that's a gorilla" etc. But she got bored with
me pretty quickly ;-)


I think she'd been cooped up too long, in a small house where she was
constantly being harassed to not touch things. I spent a lot of time
moving things out of the way, giving her a space to play with toys
that were ok, but I couldn't entirely re-arrange FIL's house.... I try
not to make it harassment but 'learning', explaining why certain
things are not toys. I'm not convinced she understands the 'why' yet,
but I figure sooner or later she will.

And then there's the toys - why play with boring old legos (which she
loves), where there are new exciting things to play with like
discovering how the music comes out of the speakers, or the knives on
the counter (argh!), or the CD collection in perfect reach for little
arms on a body just learning that standing/walking opens up a whole
new world? Fortunately, she never got interested in the wood stove
(ie HOT!). On the plus side, she could happily play with the 2 pianos
and 2 organs without too much trouble.