Kids should work !!!

On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 10:40:19 -0800, Doan wrote:

This is a noble goal. However, the question that have to be asked is
: how effective is it? Remember that we are dealing with imperfect
human beings!

It's more effective than spanking. And it is more effective than
behaviorism. You do have to make the effort to be consistent
and to actually listen to your child, but it works and its worth it.
Sure kids will still *misbehave* some. After all they are learning
and they are not going to be perfect either, but for the most part
children who are listened to and disciplined positively act up much
less than children who have been punished.

Note: I have a little boy in my class currently who looks angry
and hits. I talked to his dad at the Italian dinner and this child is
basically very much given rules and expected to stick to them
and spanked when he doesn't. He is the child who hits others
and then turns around and tattles on them when they are not
following the rules.

This has been something I have consistently observed with the
children in my class who are punished (especially those whose
parents say they spank as discipline).


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 10:40:19 -0800, Doan wrote:

All good advice. But according to the APA, effective discipline
has three components: 1) a loving relationship, 2) positive reinforcements
to encourage good behaviors and 3), negative consequences or punishments
to reduce bad behaviors. It is like three legs of a tripod, you can't
ignore one and hope to have a stable platform.

Negative reinforcement needn't be punishment. Positive reinforcement
does not need to be external rewards either. Encouragement is
different from praise and also from external rewards like stickers or
other rewards for good behavior. Positive parents notice acceptable
behavior, but they also expect it and they allow their children to
make the determination of what is good and bad. They also will notice
unacceptable behavior and treat it as a teachable moment using
problem solving skills with their children to change the behavior
instead of relying on adult solutions. No one suggests that you
should not help your children to learn what is acceptable to you and
to society.


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 10:40:19 -0800, Doan wrote:


Neither punishment nor external rewards work to accomplish
this.

Then let get rid of juvenile halls, abolish the police and justice
department. Are we living in the real word?

By the time kids get to juvenile halls they have already been punished
by parents and others and it has not worked. So we certainly need
to do something different.

If punishment worked to get people to be self-disciplined, we would
not need police because they already would have learned right from
wrong and would be doing what is right. But punishment doesn't work,
and in fact it creates people whose ethical level is so low that they
will do what they wish without regard to whether it is right or wrong.
They will figure if they don't get caught, then doing the *crime* is
fine.

I have said this before, but it bears repeating. Most people have
been punished and if you look around, you will see many of these
traits in those who were punished:

Obedience to all authority regardless of its correctness
Rebelliousness against all authority regardless of its
correctness
Sneakiness (if I don't get caught, it's ok)


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

On Sun, 16 Nov 2003, toto wrote:

On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 10:40:19 -0800, Doan wrote:

This is a noble goal. However, the question that have to be asked is
: how effective is it? Remember that we are dealing with imperfect
human beings!

It's more effective than spanking.
With some kids, yes; with all kids, I doubt it!

And it is more effective than behaviorism.
And your proof is?

You do have to make the effort to be consistent
and to actually listen to your child, but it works and its worth it.
Sure kids will still *misbehave* some. After all they are learning
and they are not going to be perfect either, but for the most part
children who are listened to and disciplined positively act up much
less than children who have been punished.

For most part - not all. Every child is different. The be effective,
you have to know the child. There is no one size fit all.

Note: I have a little boy in my class currently who looks angry
and hits. I talked to his dad at the Italian dinner and this child is
basically very much given rules and expected to stick to them
and spanked when he doesn't. He is the child who hits others
and then turns around and tattles on them when they are not
following the rules.

And you generalize from this one kid to the whole nation?

This has been something I have consistently observed with the children
in my class who are punished (especially those whose parents say they
spank as discipline).

Very "scientific", Dorothy! ;-)

Doan

On Sun, 16 Nov 2003, toto wrote:

On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 10:40:19 -0800, Doan wrote:

All good advice. But according to the APA, effective discipline
has three components: 1) a loving relationship, 2) positive reinforcements
to encourage good behaviors and 3), negative consequences or punishments
to reduce bad behaviors. It is like three legs of a tripod, you can't
ignore one and hope to have a stable platform.

Negative reinforcement needn't be punishment. Positive reinforcement
does not need to be external rewards either. Encouragement is
different from praise and also from external rewards like stickers or
other rewards for good behavior. Positive parents notice acceptable
behavior, but they also expect it and they allow their children to
make the determination of what is good and bad. They also will notice
unacceptable behavior and treat it as a teachable moment using
problem solving skills with their children to change the behavior
instead of relying on adult solutions. No one suggests that you
should not help your children to learn what is acceptable to you and
to society.

And for the real word, children should learn that society will reward them
for good behaviors and PUNISH them for bad behaviors. It is just
common-sense.

Doan

On Sun, 16 Nov 2003, toto wrote:

On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 10:40:19 -0800, Doan wrote:


Neither punishment nor external rewards work to accomplish
this.

Then let get rid of juvenile halls, abolish the police and justice
department. Are we living in the real word?

By the time kids get to juvenile halls they have already been punished
by parents and others and it has not worked. So we certainly need
to do something different.

So why punish them more? Let's get rid of juvenile hall! Let's compare
your alternatives under the same conditions and see what work best.

If punishment worked to get people to be self-disciplined, we would
not need police because they already would have learned right from
wrong and would be doing what is right. But punishment doesn't work,
and in fact it creates people whose ethical level is so low that they
will do what they wish without regard to whether it is right or wrong.
They will figure if they don't get caught, then doing the *crime* is
fine.

It's not a either/or dichotomy! It is about striking a balance and
finding what work for each individual children. It is the overuse of
reward and punishment that is bad.

I have said this before, but it bears repeating. Most people have
been punished and if you look around, you will see many of these
traits in those who were punished:

Obedience to all authority regardless of its correctness
Rebelliousness against all authority regardless of its
correctness
Sneakiness (if I don't get caught, it's ok)

And what society don't have people with those traits?

Doan

On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 15:30:24 -0800, Doan wrote:

On Sun, 16 Nov 2003, toto wrote:

On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 10:40:19 -0800, Doan wrote:


Neither punishment nor external rewards work to accomplish
this.

Then let get rid of juvenile halls, abolish the police and justice
department. Are we living in the real word?

If children weren't so abused by the ignorant use of punishment to
raise them we'd probably be able to cut back by 90% and deal only with
those that were criminally insane.

So yes, I think Toto is living in the real world.


By the time kids get to juvenile halls they have already been
punished
by parents and others and it has not worked. So we certainly need
to do something different.

So why punish them more?

Yep, why bother? I worked with hundreds of such children, some very
criminally bent, and I was able to turn them around by removing the
punishment component entirely from treatment. And all I used was
simple easy developmentally based support methods.

It was very much on the order of what Toto listed.

Let's get rid of juvenile hall!

Excellent idea. It will take time, but it should always remain a goal,
right along with getting rid of pain parenting.

Let's compare
your alternatives under the same conditions and see what work best.

Okay.

Now ask me to post proof.

Sorry, the hundreds of children and the parents I worked with are
protected by confidentiality laws. If I can some that want to waste
their time on you I'll invite them.

If punishment worked to get people to be self-disciplined, we would
not need police because they already would have learned right from
wrong and would be doing what is right. But punishment doesn't
work,
and in fact it creates people whose ethical level is so low that
they
will do what they wish without regard to whether it is right or
wrong.
They will figure if they don't get caught, then doing the *crime*
is
fine.

It's not a either/or dichotomy!

Of course not. Where did you get the idea she was presenting such a
narrow option?

It is about striking a balance and
finding what work for each individual children. It is the overuse of
reward and punishment that is bad.

It is your inability to understand that a repertoire of non-punitive
parenting methods is FAR more expansive and extensive than that
usually used by punishment oriented parenting and parents.

In other words, it is much more likely that the diversity between
children is likely to be ignored or go undiscovered by a spanker, than
by a non-punitive parent.

The non-punitive parent NEVER has the quick and brutal solution of a
CP action to fall back on so they must learn, and they must learn
about the differences between their children and between any child an
another.

I have said this before, but it bears repeating. Most people have
been punished and if you look around, you will see many of these
traits in those who were punished:

Obedience to all authority regardless of its correctness
Rebelliousness against all authority regardless of its
correctness
Sneakiness (if I don't get caught, it's ok)

And what society don't have people with those traits?

Yes, that is the point now isn't it?

Do you think that sneadiness, rebelliousness, and blind obedience is a
common characteristic of non-pain parented children?

I'd love to meet a few if you can round them up. I notice that no one
ever comes to this ng and claims they are a criminal that has never
been punished, psychologically or physically.

I wonder why that is? They could so easily provide some support for
your entire bogus claims.

There was, if I recall correctly, once a troll that posted a single
post making such a claim, then they crawled back under their bridge
and were never heard from again. If I run across the post I'll cut and
paste it for you...I mean after all, you, in your pitiful defense of
"choice" on spanking need something, anything, to make you feel
better.


Doan


Kane

Doan wrote in message ...
On Sun, 16 Nov 2003, toto wrote:

On 16 Nov 2003 05:57:58 -0800, (Greg Hanson)
wrote:

LaVonne
No spanking? No KP work as punishment?

Do you hate all discipline of any kind?

This could get interesting.. You are against
spanking, against KP duty, against shame, etc.

Lord of the Flies eh?

Positive Discipline is about teaching children right from wrong
and seeing that they become responsible for self-discipline.

This is a noble goal. However, the question that have to be asked is
: how effective is it? Remember that we are dealing with imperfect
human beings!

Neither punishment nor external rewards work to accomplish
this.

Then let get rid of juvenile halls, abolish the police and justice
department. Are we living in the real word?

Children learn what they live.

Positive Parenting Methods

First and foremost, model the behavior you want your child to
emulate. Children learn what they live. Teach by example, not
words.

Second, assume your child is good even when he misbehaves.
Understand that his actions have an underlying developmental
reason. Remember that children are *learning.* Approach
misbehavior as a teachable moment.

Third, state your rules and requests in positive ways, not
negative ones. Redirect her to things she can do rather than
trying to keep her away from things without alternatives.

Fourth, explain. Make sure you have his attention. You may need
to go closer to him, to touch his shoulder, to look directly in
his eyes.

Fifth, always try to look for the underlying cause of the behavior
and address that so that the need is actually met in acceptable
ways. Give her choices between many things that are acceptable
to you

Sixth, give him warnings of transitions so that they become easier
to manage. Children, like adults, need to complete activities
they are absorbed in.

Seventh, allow for time-outs when your emotions or hers are out
of control. Time-outs can be used non-punitively to allow both
the adult and child to regain control of their emotions. Teach
her to count to 10, to breathe, to walk away by modelling the
techniques you use to manage your anger.

Eighth, say what you mean and mean what you say. Don't give a
lot of warnings, give one and then act. Give him time to comply,
but follow through.

Ninth, plan for situations before they arise. Try to stay calm
yourself. Allow her to vent her feelings and accept them.

Tenth, as your child grows, involve him in making the rules and
choosing the consequences for breaking them Brainstorm and
problem solve with him.

Eleventh, make amends when you make a mistake. Apologize to
your child when you have made a mistake. Accept his apologies
gracefully as well.

Twelfth, give your child responsibility for real tasks that help
make your family work, keeping the chores within her developmental
stage and allowing her input into what the chores should be and
when to do them.



I've always found this interesting.

1) a loving relationship, 2) positive reinforcements.

The most powerful positive reinforcement of all IS the feelings one
gets in a loving relationship from the other...but even more important
is the feeling one gets inside one's self from loving the other
person...doing the right thing brings, to the child who hasn't been
battered or otherwise denied the chance to develop a conscience and
empathy, has exactly that attribute:

They do good because it feels good. Not because of fear.

All good advice.

When have you ever proposed any of those as "good" parenting methods?
Show us proof you have.

But according to the APA, effective discipline
has three components: 1) a loving relationship, 2) positive reinforcements
to encourage good behaviors and 3), negative consequences or punishments
to reduce bad behaviors. It is like three legs of a tripod, you can't
ignore one and hope to have a stable platform.

They say "punishments" do they? Well, they would be wrong then. Unless
a child attacks YOU personally, and you are in danger there is not
even any need for a logical negative consequence to be administered by
you on the child.

Even then it's questionable, as the child is always acting as they
think is appropriate until you teach them the alternatives, or agree
with them the behavior is correct.

It isn't hard. Even you could do it, Doan. Even you (I think).

R R R R R

Doan

Kane

On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 15:22:21 -0800, Doan wrote:

You do have to make the effort to be consistent
and to actually listen to your child, but it works and its worth it.
Sure kids will still *misbehave* some. After all they are learning
and they are not going to be perfect either, but for the most part
children who are listened to and disciplined positively act up much
less than children who have been punished.

For most part - not all. Every child is different. The be effective,
you have to know the child. There is no one size fit all.

Positive discipline is not one size. It is something you modify
to fit the child and your family, but the *attitude* you take toward
the child is that he is trying to be good and learning and you
work with that.


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 15:24:04 -0800, Doan wrote:

And for the real word, children should learn that society will reward them
for good behaviors and PUNISH them for bad behaviors. It is just
common-sense.

They can learn that without being rewarded or punished by their
parents. Do you really think that children are so stupid that they
cannot see that society is punishment and reward oriented even
if you don't use those techniques?



--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits