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#41
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Kids should work !!!
On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 14:38:38 -0600, toto
wrote: On 22 Nov 2003 10:55:24 -0800, (Kane) wrote: Note: I have a little boy in my class currently who looks angry and hits. I talked to his dad at the Italian dinner and this child is basically very much given rules and expected to stick to them and spanked when he doesn't. He is the child who hits others and then turns around and tattles on them when they are not following the rules. And you generalize from this one kid to the whole nation? This has been something I have consistently observed with the children in my class who are punished (especially those whose parents say they spank as discipline). Very "scientific", Dorothy! ;-) R R R R Like your contributions are "scientific" R R R R Aside from that in 30 years there have been many not just one child like this. A totally inexperienced, except for his own parent's vicous treatment of him that he has supressed while glamorizing them, little grunt that has never had any children, never worked with children, is trying to tell folks with your experience that what they have seen is just a product of their overheated anti spanking zeal. I love it. You worked in the classroom for 30 years and saw what you saw, and I've worked since 1976 with the product of what you saw. That includes 5 years of direct treatment work with these victims of the sickness Doan purpetuates, apologizes for, and lies about. But never mind, you couldn't know what you are talking about, not with his genius at debate to refute you. Your direct experience isn't "scientific" enough for him....R R R R R Kane |
#43
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Kids should work !!!
On Sat, 22 Nov 2003, toto wrote:
On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 10:23:00 -0800, Doan wrote: Time outs used as punishment are not positive discipline. Nor is lecturing or scolding or any of the *other* methods that were studied. In other words, your THEORY is unproven! All social science conclusions are unproven, but the evidence is clear if you look around you. Are you saying 'who needs science'? ;-) If what you said is true, then 99.99% of the parents in the WHOLE WORLD must be stupid. The "evidence is clear" but they just don't see it, right Dorothy? ;-) Doan x |
#44
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Kids should work !!!
On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 21:29:17 -0800, Doan wrote:
On Sat, 22 Nov 2003, toto wrote: On 22 Nov 2003 10:55:24 -0800, (Kane) wrote: Note: I have a little boy in my class currently who looks angry and hits. I talked to his dad at the Italian dinner and this child is basically very much given rules and expected to stick to them and spanked when he doesn't. He is the child who hits others and then turns around and tattles on them when they are not following the rules. And you generalize from this one kid to the whole nation? This has been something I have consistently observed with the children in my class who are punished (especially those whose parents say they spank as discipline). Very "scientific", Dorothy! ;-) R R R R Like your contributions are "scientific" R R R R Aside from that in 30 years there have been many not just one child like this. That still doesn't make it any more scientific! Unless you can account for everything that is going on in the children life, statement like this is just opinion. If people sat around accumulating data for scientific analysis before acting humans would have been extinct long ago. Like I said, if spanking is as bad as the anti-spanking zealotS make it to be, It's worse then most of them even know. I've worked with the result. it would be very easy to demonstrate the non-cp alernatives are better. It would be if you were here and I could take you by the back of your skinny little neck and march you through some juvenile lock ups and adolescent and younger treatment centers. So far, ALL the studies that looked at both spanking and non-cp alternatives, like Straus & Mouradian (1998), have found that the non-cp alternatives are no better than spanking. That is because they only looked at punishment alternatives. Hence the studies are invalid on the claim that "alternatives" don't work. My alternatives work, and even where punishment models are limited enough to make the parenting more non-punitive there are excellent results. Doan Full of **** as usual, Doan. Why not let The Plant tap off a little and reduce your pressure?....... R R R R Kane |
#45
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Kids should work !!!
On 22 Nov 2003, Kane wrote:
On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 14:38:38 -0600, toto wrote: On 22 Nov 2003 10:55:24 -0800, (Kane) wrote: Note: I have a little boy in my class currently who looks angry and hits. I talked to his dad at the Italian dinner and this child is basically very much given rules and expected to stick to them and spanked when he doesn't. He is the child who hits others and then turns around and tattles on them when they are not following the rules. And you generalize from this one kid to the whole nation? This has been something I have consistently observed with the children in my class who are punished (especially those whose parents say they spank as discipline). Very "scientific", Dorothy! ;-) R R R R Like your contributions are "scientific" R R R R Aside from that in 30 years there have been many not just one child like this. A totally inexperienced, except for his own parent's vicous treatment of him that he has supressed while glamorizing them, little grunt that has never had any children, never worked with children, is trying to tell folks with your experience that what they have seen is just a product of their overheated anti spanking zeal. I love it. You worked in the classroom for 30 years and saw what you saw, and I've worked since 1976 with the product of what you saw. That includes 5 years of direct treatment work with these victims of the sickness Doan purpetuates, apologizes for, and lies about. But never mind, you couldn't know what you are talking about, not with his genius at debate to refute you. Your direct experience isn't "scientific" enough for him....R R R R R Kane So now you are the "expert". Tell me, Kane, what kind of parenting did you receive to teach you that it is right to call other women "smelly ****"? I think is "sickness" is in your head. ;-) The choice for me is simple, if you are right then 99.99% of the parents in the world, accross cultures, accross religions, accross races and times, are wrong. Or could it be, that parents know their own children better than you? ;-) Doan |
#46
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Kids should work !!!
On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 21:47:27 -0800, Doan wrote:
On 22 Nov 2003, Kane wrote: On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 14:38:38 -0600, toto wrote: On 22 Nov 2003 10:55:24 -0800, (Kane) wrote: Note: I have a little boy in my class currently who looks angry and hits. I talked to his dad at the Italian dinner and this child is basically very much given rules and expected to stick to them and spanked when he doesn't. He is the child who hits others and then turns around and tattles on them when they are not following the rules. And you generalize from this one kid to the whole nation? This has been something I have consistently observed with the children in my class who are punished (especially those whose parents say they spank as discipline). Very "scientific", Dorothy! ;-) R R R R Like your contributions are "scientific" R R R R Aside from that in 30 years there have been many not just one child like this. A totally inexperienced, except for his own parent's vicous treatment of him that he has supressed while glamorizing them, little grunt that has never had any children, never worked with children, is trying to tell folks with your experience that what they have seen is just a product of their overheated anti spanking zeal. I love it. You worked in the classroom for 30 years and saw what you saw, and I've worked since 1976 with the product of what you saw. That includes 5 years of direct treatment work with these victims of the sickness Doan purpetuates, apologizes for, and lies about. But never mind, you couldn't know what you are talking about, not with his genius at debate to refute you. Your direct experience isn't "scientific" enough for him....R R R R R Kane So now you are the "expert". Tell me, Kane, what kind of parenting did you receive to teach you that it is right to call other women "smelly ****"? Righteous parenting that tells me not to suffer fools and allow the world to be by little sick children such as you and The Columbine. I think is "sickness" is in your head. ;-) I think is sickness in you and your childish repetitious ranting. The choice for me is simple, if you are right then 99.99% of the parents in the world, accross cultures, accross religions, accross races and times, are wrong. The choice for you is based on misinformation. Many cultures are shocked at the idea of striking or even punishing a child. I am familiar with most that do punish and the sicknesss they inculcate in their children by so doing. For instance: http://tinyurl.com/w6cj "Parents' Sacrifice and Guilt Induction Many Asian-American parents do make unbelievable sacrifices for their children. Especially among the newly-immigrated families, quite a few were professionals in their home countries, and they could only take entry level jobs in this country and had to support their children's education in every way possible. However, they often use guilt induction by urging their children to consider the negative impact of their low grades on other family members. Very often Asian-American students find it so difficult to please their parents that the psychological pressure results in terrible test anxiety. Many Asian-American students have apparent physical symptoms before and after tests (Pang, 1990). Their White classmates would think these Asian-Americans are paranoiac when they keep discussing with their White classmates about the test. They would say, "Give me a break. It's over and I don't want to talk about it." The worst part of the guilt induction is that the complex interpersonal process transforms over a period of time into an intrapersonal process. The need for approval through doing well becomes internalized and children are typically unaware of the process (Pang, 1990). Some Asian-American parents punish their children for culturally unacceptable behaviors. Failure to meet parental expectation for academic achievement is, sometimes, considered a legitimate reason for punishment, even harsh punishment (Morrow & McBride, 1988). Children have to face ridicule and rejection. Forms of punishment include isolating the child from the family social life and verbal abuse. Children are often shamed and scolded for the "loss of face" which results from their failure to fulfill the primary obligation to the family." This is not a culture free of crime, as you might note. As with the Laotian, and Cambodian, all whom practice spanking and other punishments. I understand most Arab countries also use physical and other punishments rather liberally. I think I can understand your statement aligning with the majority and being unwilling to explore other possibilities. It's very likely culturally induced. You will even champion the roots of our violent past to not be seen as in opposition, different from the mass. But also in SE Asia, Malay peninsula to be precise live the Semai, a people that rarely ever strike or even force their children to do anything. http://www.noogenesis.com/malama/bood.html Notice the outcomes of treating children with dignity. And no, I'm not going to argue that 99% of us humans don't spank...I'm just saying the time passing for many things that 99% once did and believed in as fervently as you spanking. But then, though I see a lot of Arab world child abuse through punishment I also see a great deal of the same folks who not only don't use physical punishment much, even some Muslims teach that punishment is inappropriate parenting: (this is from that same Malay peninsula I believe) http://islamic-world.net/mkc/e_book3.htm And then there are the these Christians that believe in what their faith actually teaches: http://nospank.net/cnpindex.htm The Crowell reprot tells the truth about the Swedish experiment, many decades long (as opposed to the lies that suggest it's a recent event) And the actual outcomes, not the desparate propaganda of spanking nations that lie about Sweden, and the few equally desperate Swedes that so badly miss spanking. http://nospank.net/crowell.htm You also seem to have forgotten, in your 99% figure, the nations that have banned spanking and seen the improvements that come with ending brutality toward children in the name of discipline. http://www.stophitting.com/laws/legalReform.php These nations do not spank their children: Sweden, Finland, Denmark, Germany, Italy, Norway, Austria, Cyprus, Croatia, Latvia, Iceland, Israel. Or could it be, that parents know their own children better than you? ;-) So I would have to answer "no" there are 11 nations, and many cultures that know their children as well or possibly even better than I do. The remainder still have something to learn. As do you. When you have your own children you will see. You come out of a culture that is known for the use of physical punishment. And that is changing as well. But your defense is understandable. Apparently you are bothered by that, no? Doan yawn Now it's waaaay past my bedtime so you can just stomp your little foot and beat your little pointy head against the wall and wait for me to get back to you when I feel the need to educate again. Have a nice day, Kane |
#47
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Kids should work !!!
On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 21:47:27 -0800, Doan wrote:
On 22 Nov 2003, Kane wrote: On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 14:38:38 -0600, toto wrote: On 22 Nov 2003 10:55:24 -0800, (Kane) wrote: Note: I have a little boy in my class currently who looks angry and hits. I talked to his dad at the Italian dinner and this child is basically very much given rules and expected to stick to them and spanked when he doesn't. He is the child who hits others and then turns around and tattles on them when they are not following the rules. And you generalize from this one kid to the whole nation? This has been something I have consistently observed with the children in my class who are punished (especially those whose parents say they spank as discipline). Very "scientific", Dorothy! ;-) R R R R Like your contributions are "scientific" R R R R Aside from that in 30 years there have been many not just one child like this. A totally inexperienced, except for his own parent's vicous treatment of him that he has supressed while glamorizing them, little grunt that has never had any children, never worked with children, is trying to tell folks with your experience that what they have seen is just a product of their overheated anti spanking zeal. I love it. You worked in the classroom for 30 years and saw what you saw, and I've worked since 1976 with the product of what you saw. That includes 5 years of direct treatment work with these victims of the sickness Doan purpetuates, apologizes for, and lies about. But never mind, you couldn't know what you are talking about, not with his genius at debate to refute you. Your direct experience isn't "scientific" enough for him....R R R R R Kane So now you are the "expert". I consider classroom teachers with 30 years experience and myself, with many years of mental health work directly with children and even more with their parents as qualified as expert, yes. I've been at it continuously since 1976 except for a 5 year trip to your ancestoral homeland, and other points East. And YOUR experience? Tell me, Kane, what kind of parenting did you receive Wonderful. Sensible. **** detecting skills par excellance. to teach you that it is right to call other women "smelly ****"? Righteous parenting that tells me not to suffer fools and allow the world to be destroyed by little sick children such as you and The Columbine. I think is "sickness" is in your head. ;-) I think is sickness in you ass and your childish repetitious ranting. The choice for me is simple, if you are right then 99.99% of the parents in the world, accross cultures, accross religions, accross races and times, are wrong. The choice for you is based on misinformation. Many cultures are shocked at the idea of striking or even punishing a child. I am familiar with most that do punish and the sicknesss they inculcate in their children by so doing. For instance: http://tinyurl.com/w6cj "Parents' Sacrifice and Guilt Induction Many Asian-American parents do make unbelievable sacrifices for their children. Especially among the newly-immigrated families, quite a few were professionals in their home countries, and they could only take entry level jobs in this country and had to support their children's education in every way possible. However, they often use guilt induction by urging their children to consider the negative impact of their low grades on other family members. Very often Asian-American students find it so difficult to please their parents that the psychological pressure results in terrible test anxiety. Many Asian-American students have apparent physical symptoms before and after tests (Pang, 1990). Their White classmates would think these Asian-Americans are paranoiac when they keep discussing with their White classmates about the test. They would say, "Give me a break. It's over and I don't want to talk about it." The worst part of the guilt induction is that the complex interpersonal process transforms over a period of time into an intrapersonal process. The need for approval through doing well becomes internalized and children are typically unaware of the process (Pang, 1990). Some Asian-American parents punish their children for culturally unacceptable behaviors. Failure to meet parental expectation for academic achievement is, sometimes, considered a legitimate reason for punishment, even harsh punishment (Morrow & McBride, 1988). Children have to face ridicule and rejection. Forms of punishment include isolating the child from the family social life and verbal abuse. Children are often shamed and scolded for the "loss of face" which results from their failure to fulfill the primary obligation to the family." This is not a culture free of crime, as you might note. As with the Laotian, and Cambodian, all whom practice spanking and other punishments. I understand most Arab countries also use physical and other punishments rather liberally. I think I can understand your statement aligning with the majority and being unwilling to explore other possibilities. It's very likely culturally induced. You will even champion the roots of our violent past to not be seen as in opposition, different from the mass. But also in SE Asia, Malay peninsula to be precise live the Semai, a people that rarely ever strike or even force their children to do anything. http://www.noogenesis.com/malama/bood.html Notice the outcomes of treating children with dignity. And no, I'm not going to argue that 99% of us humans don't spank...I'm just saying the time passing for many things that 99% once did and believed in as fervently as you spanking. But then, though I see a lot of Arab world child abuse through punishment I also see a great deal of the same folks who not only don't use physical punishment much, even some Muslims teach that punishment is inappropriate parenting: (this is from that same Malay peninsula I believe) http://islamic-world.net/mkc/e_book3.htm And then there are the these Christians that believe in what their faith actually teaches: http://nospank.net/cnpindex.htm The Crowell reprot tells the truth about the Swedish experiment, many decades long (as opposed to the lies that suggest it's a recent event) And the actual outcomes, not the desparate propaganda of spanking nations that lie about Sweden, and the few equally desperate Swedes that so badly miss spanking. http://nospank.net/crowell.htm You also seem to have forgotten, in your 99% figure, the nations that have banned spanking and seen the improvements that come with ending brutality toward children in the name of discipline. http://www.stophitting.com/laws/legalReform.php These nations do not spank their children: Sweden, Finland, Denmark, Germany, Italy, Norway, Austria, Cyprus, Croatia, Latvia, Iceland, Israel. Or could it be, that parents know their own children better than you? ;-) So I would have to answer "no" there are 11 nations, and many cultures that know their children as well or possibly even better than I do. The remainder still have something to learn. As do you. When you have your own children you will see. You come out of a culture that is known for the use of physical punishment. And that is changing as well. But your defense is understandable. Apparently you are bothered by that, no? Doan yawn Now it's waaaay past my bedtime so you can just stomp your little foot and beat your little pointy head against the wall and wait for me to get back to you when I feel the need to educate again. And by the way, you once MORE didn't respond to my actual questions and claims. Have a nice day, Kane |
#48
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Kids should work !!!
On 23 Nov 2003 17:38:04 GMT, (Daniel) wrote:
doan wrote: . Like I said, if spanking is as bad as the anti-spanking zealotS make it to be, it would be very easy to demonstrate the non-cp alernatives are better. So far, ALL the studies that looked at both spanking and non-cp alternatives, like Straus & Mouradian (1998), have found that the non-cp alternatives are no better than spanking. Doan how about http://www.gordontraining.com/FamilyResearch.asp Aw shucks Daniel. You went and spoiled it. I have been saving this for a long time, watching the doofi on this ng bury themselves deeper and deeper, Doan among the Deepest Doofi of all. Now the fun is over. Even their beloved Baumrind agrees with the non-punitive methods PET espouses and teaches. The outcomes for improved IQ should really knock the idiots socks off, let alone the social skills areas. But then I can see it coming even as I diddle the keys, the grumpy little child haters will be screaming, despite the clear caveats about methodology that opens the page followed by those studies the are identified clearly as meeting or not...and the HIGH level outcomes with good outcomes that are the product of MORE RIGOROUS STUDIES THAT MEET TOUGHER RESEARCH CRITERIS....all we are going to hear is: "It's propaganda" R R R R sure it is, accurate information that kicks you all in the butt, you silly little turds. And it's information that I personally put to the test over the years and saw the effective results myself. Thanks again, Daniel. Kane Daniel Roach Colindale, London, England Music lover, Simpsons fan, Playstation owner and Amiga guru |
#49
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Kids should work !!!
On Tue, 18 Nov 2003, CJS wrote:
And for the real word, children should learn that society will reward them for good behaviors and PUNISH them for bad behaviors. It is just common-sense. Is it necessary for the parent to administer punishment ? Sometime, YES! To help my son take responsibility for his own actions I believe in letting him suffer the natural consequences. Good for you. You have every right to do what you see fit. I don't have to punish him. If what he is doing is wrong I explain to him why. If he does it anyway then he will suffer the consequences. Why does he have to suffer the consequences? Naturally one must avoid them actually seriously hurting themselves, but I want my son to understand why, not to blindly obey because he fears retribution. Good for you. The result is that he behaves well because he believes it is the right way to behave and develops self discipline. Then you have done your job as a parent. Doan |
#50
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Kids should work !!!
On 25 Nov 2003, Ignoramus3100 wrote:
In article , Doan wrote: On Tue, 18 Nov 2003, CJS wrote: And for the real word, children should learn that society will reward them for good behaviors and PUNISH them for bad behaviors. It is just common-sense. Is it necessary for the parent to administer punishment ? Sometime, YES! punishment does not equal to beating. Who said anything about "BEATING"???? ;-) Examples: taking away favorite toys, not talking to the kids, grounding, etc etc. And you will be surprised if you read Straus & Mouradian (1998) that these non-cp alternatives "correlated" to antisocial problems MORE strongly than spankings. As Dr. Larzelere said: "Alternative disciplinary responses predicted antisocial problems 10 times more strongly than did non-impulsive physical punishment, and they predicted child impulsivity 3 times more strongly. No one would use such evidence to conclude that reasoning, time out, and/or privilege removal are counterproductive." Doan i To help my son take responsibility for his own actions I believe in letting him suffer the natural consequences. Good for you. You have every right to do what you see fit. I don't have to punish him. If what he is doing is wrong I explain to him why. If he does it anyway then he will suffer the consequences. Why does he have to suffer the consequences? Naturally one must avoid them actually seriously hurting themselves, but I want my son to understand why, not to blindly obey because he fears retribution. Good for you. The result is that he behaves well because he believes it is the right way to behave and develops self discipline. Then you have done your job as a parent. Doan |
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