Air head!

In article ,
Rosalie B. wrote:

In article
,
Mary Ann wrote:

Of course I'm not saying you should sit back and do nothing with your
son, but I would use it as a lesson rather than punishing him.

He wasn't punished, though I would not have objected if the school had
punished him for breaking bounds. They 'just wanted to let me know',
presumably to let me decide on the response. I hate that! I don't believe
things should be left hanging over little kids.

I wouldn't have taken it that way.

snipped

It's all in the tone. The teacher who spoke to me about it gave me the
feeling she was *expecting* me to punish him in some way, while only saying
that she 'just wanted to let me know'. I feel I tend to miss undercurrents
entirely rather than misread the ones I do pick up.

(Hmm, I suppose the questioning and scolding I gave him on the way home *was*
a punishment, now I think about it).

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

http://chookiesbackyard.blogspot.com/

On 15 Mar, 12:16, Chookie wrote:
In article
,
*Mary Ann wrote:

Of course I'm not saying you should sit back and do nothing with your
son, but I would use it as a lesson rather than punishing him.

He wasn't punished, though I would not have objected if the school had
punished him for breaking bounds. *

Oh right, yes I've re-read your original post now. From that I had
understood that you somehow felt that you were supposed to punish
him.


They 'just wanted to let me know',
presumably to let me decide on the response. *I hate that! *I don't
believe
things should be left hanging over little kids.

But was something left hanging over him? Did he know his teacher would
be telling you and do you think that him knowing that would make him
feel he would be in trouble?

I do know what you mean about the "just letting you know" thing. I
haven't had it while DS has been at school, but we used to get it alot
when he was in nursery. I learnt to turn it back to them by asking
them how they had handled the situation and whether they thought I
needed to act further upon it. Sometimes by the tone of the
conversation I think they understood that I pretty much thought it was
a bit ridiculous that they were telling me about some minor incident.

Mary Ann

In article ,
Sarah Vaughan wrote:

Huh? Where was that from?

Just the general tone of your post. The title, for starters - I know
(well, I assume) that you haven't actually used that term to your son's
face,

It's not in my normal speaking vocabulary, no. DH was listening to Thomas
Dolby at the time.

but I'm wondering whether that was still the attitude he got from
you. And the way you were generalising this into a claim that he
doesn't have any common sense. I know that what he did was dangerously
scatty, but generalising like that can actually cause more problems
because children learn to see themselves in the way they're described.

Yes, it is always a danger. I'll be careful. I wonder, however, if one can
go too far in the opposite direction. I can think of a family who never, ever
mentioned words like "fat" or "overweight" in front of their younger daughter.
Unfortunately it was painfully obvious that they were avoiding certain words
and concepts...

And you were saying that the school should have punished him. Maybe I

Nope. I said I would not have objected: he broke a school rule that is there
for a very good reason. But I do not approve of the
wait-till-your-mother-gets-here overtones. Of course, they did have to tell
me about what happened (which is a Consequence for those who are uncomfortable
with the P-word) but the implication from the particular teacher was that I'd
Do Something in addition.

shouldn't be too quick to have an opinion on this, since my children
aren't yet at that age, but... the idea of punishing someone for a
genuine mistake for which they're clearly remorseful just sounds so
extraordinary to me.

I am sure that there are circumstances in which I would do it, but cannot
think of anything in childhood ATM. As an adult example: the woman who drove
her car into mine. She would still have been booked for negligent driving, no
matter how remorseful she was. She was not looking AT ALL. Imagine if a
pedestrian had been in front of her, instead of my car!

I'd see it as a problem that you *and* he need to
be working on, rather than as something for which he should be punished.

Um, yeah. Any tips on how to do that? Anyone?

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

http://chookiesbackyard.blogspot.com/

Hi --

I, too, have a somewhat absent-minded child. Here's how we deal with
it:

1. For situations where it's appropriate, we script out what to do in
advance. We call it the "what if" game. (What if you're home alone
for a few minutes and someone knocks at the door? What do you do?
Or, what do you do from the time you wake up to the time you're
ready to leave for school?)
2. When he does something right, like being ready for school on time,
or doing part of his homework in advance of when it's due instead of
at the last second, we ask him how he feels (always good) and tell
him how good WE feel that we didn't have to nag him, but can let him
spend his time however he wants for a while.
3. No matter what the excuse, we tell him that his job is to succeed
with whatever he has to do, and to find ways to succeed. His job is
NOT to find excuses to fail, but to find ways to succeed. So if a
door is left open and flies are coming in, his job is to shut the
door, not complain about the flies!
4. Whenever possible we make him responsible for us, not the other way
around. So his job is to remind me to look both ways before
crossing the street, to let me know if he needs clean laundry (but I
think it's about time for him to actually DO his own laundry too),
etc. I offload responsbilities as much as possible! (Clearly I'm
backing him up, but HE doesn't know that.)

I don't recall what the precipitating incident was with this thread, but
I hope one of these suggestions hits the mark anyway.

--Beth Kevles
-THE-COM-HERE
http://web.mit.edu/kevles/www/nomilk.html -- a page for the milk-allergic
Disclaimer: Nothing in this message should be construed as medical
advice. Please consult with your own medical practicioner.

NOTE: No email is read at my MIT address. Use the GMAIL one if you would
like me to reply.

Chookie wrote:
In article ,
Sarah Vaughan wrote:

[...]
And the way you were generalising this into a claim that he
doesn't have any common sense. I know that what he did was dangerously
scatty, but generalising like that can actually cause more problems
because children learn to see themselves in the way they're described.

Yes, it is always a danger. I'll be careful. I wonder, however, if one can
go too far in the opposite direction. I can think of a family who never, ever
mentioned words like "fat" or "overweight" in front of their younger daughter.
Unfortunately it was painfully obvious that they were avoiding certain words
and concepts...

Well, I presume she isn't only overweight on specific occasions. ;-)
What I'm objecting to is not the utterance of any negative points about
a child, but the generalisation from specific incidences. “You should
have looked before running after that ball,” can be treated as a
specific occurrence (or even as a lot of specific occurrences!) without
necessarily turning it into "You're so absent-minded."

And you were saying that the school should have punished him. Maybe I

Nope. I said I would not have objected: he broke a school rule that is there
for a very good reason.

Your initial post did specifically say that the school should have
punished him, so that's part of what I was responding to. Maybe it was
just misleadingly phrased.


All the best,

Sarah


--
http://www.goodenoughmummy.typepad.com

"That which can be destroyed by the truth, should be" - P. C. Hodgell

I was also vague (and still am, but not quite as much). One year, I lost
three sets of swimming costumes and towels in a fortnight of school swimming
lessons. Left them behind on the school bus -- but swimming costumes aren't
as prominent in a kid's mind as party invitations.

I don't know how to solve this, but please please do, my husband is just
like this and it can make life very hard and in adult life the
oversights aren't always as simple as less friends at your birthday
party. One day, DH lost his phone, his watch, his wallet (which
contained keys as well as cards and money AND his wedding ring, in four
different places, in a foreign country, that situation could well have
turned out much worse.

I am apt to blame it on not being taught the logical consequences, like
the difference between the child who forgets their packed lunch going
hungry, versus the one who's mum drops everything to bring it to them,
but it's clearly not as simple as that. I learned a lot of lessons by
consequences and I feel DH was harmed by not having things followed
through, but then had DH's natural personality been substituted in my
upbringing, carrying out the consequences of the absent mindedness would
likely have harmed education, social relationships and what not, but not
actually taught him that if you don't either put your watch in the same
place every night, or take a moment to remember where you put it then
you are going to lose it and put my personality into DH's upbringing (in
this aspect of things) and maybe there would have been some struggles at
a transition point in life, but ones that I'd have resolved fast.

So please, for the sake of his future wife, try and figure out something!

Anne

On Mar 15, 2:05 pm, Sarah Vaughan wrote:
Chookie wrote:
In article ,
Sarah Vaughan wrote:

Chookie wrote:

I must say that I don't expect much road sense in a child this age, but the
dawn of any form of common sense would be most welcome. Any ideas on how
to encourage its arrival?
Not really, which is why I haven't posted up until now. However, what
does keep nagging at me after reading your post is a general feeling of
"Well, hell, I know what *won't* work." It seems to me that a general
attitude of criticism, punishment, and insult over a genuine mistake is
something that probably isn't going to work.

Huh? Where was that from?

Just the general tone of your post. The title, for starters - I know
(well, I assume) that you haven't actually used that term to your son's
face, but I'm wondering whether that was still the attitude he got from
you. And the way you were generalising this into a claim that he
doesn't have any common sense. I know that what he did was dangerously
scatty, but generalising like that can actually cause more problems
because children learn to see themselves in the way they're described.
And you were saying that the school should have punished him. Maybe I
shouldn't be too quick to have an opinion on this, since my children
aren't yet at that age, but... the idea of punishing someone for a
genuine mistake for which they're clearly remorseful just sounds so
extraordinary to me. I'd see it as a problem that you *and* he need to
be working on, rather than as something for which he should be punished.

All the best,

Sarah

I agree with Sarah as to the way you project him to be will make him
become like that. I also would like to see the big picture. He lost a
ball and he wanted to retrieve it. I am sure once he opened the gate,
he knew he was taking a risk. But as boys and men, we do take risk and
nothing brings us much happiness than to accomplish a goal.

It would be interesting to sit down with your son and go over his
thought process as to his actions. It would be also to see what your
husband's reaction or thoughts are on what happened. If your son knew
leaving school grounds was wrong, but felt he could retrieve the ball
and return before he was noticed, then I would be a happy parent.

Regards...

In article ,
Anne Rogers wrote:

I was also vague (and still am, but not quite as much). One year, I lost
three sets of swimming costumes and towels in a fortnight of school
swimming
lessons. Left them behind on the school bus -- but swimming costumes
aren't as prominent in a kid's mind as party invitations.

I don't know how to solve this, but please please do, my husband is just
like this and it can make life very hard and in adult life the
oversights aren't always as simple as less friends at your birthday
party. One day, DH lost his phone, his watch, his wallet (which
contained keys as well as cards and money AND his wedding ring, in four
different places, in a foreign country, that situation could well have
turned out much worse.

I'm not QUITE that bad; I suspect I have (mostly unconsciously) worked out
some strategies to prevent this happening. For example, I invariably lost
folding umbrellas on public transport, so I took to carrying the large kind.

I am apt to blame it on not being taught the logical consequences, like
the difference between the child who forgets their packed lunch going
hungry, versus the one who's mum drops everything to bring it to them,
but it's clearly not as simple as that.

No -- I was never 'rescued' like that.

The problem was for me and is for my son that the only solution people come up
with is 'try harder' -- and that's no help at all. If there are all kinds of
wonderful thoughts happening in your head, why (let alone HOW) do you come
back to earth to deal with mundanities like swimming costumes, umbrellas and
keys?

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

http://chookiesbackyard.blogspot.com/

Chookie wrote:

In article ,
Anne Rogers wrote:

I was also vague (and still am, but not quite as much). One year, I lost
three sets of swimming costumes and towels in a fortnight of school
swimming
lessons. Left them behind on the school bus -- but swimming costumes
aren't as prominent in a kid's mind as party invitations.

I don't know how to solve this, but please please do, my husband is just
like this and it can make life very hard and in adult life the
oversights aren't always as simple as less friends at your birthday
party. One day, DH lost his phone, his watch, his wallet (which
contained keys as well as cards and money AND his wedding ring, in four
different places, in a foreign country, that situation could well have
turned out much worse.

I'm not QUITE that bad; I suspect I have (mostly unconsciously) worked out
some strategies to prevent this happening. For example, I invariably lost
folding umbrellas on public transport, so I took to carrying the large kind.

DH keeps his stuff pretty well, but I have locked myself out of my car
while shopping twice on December 23rd, left my wallet in a phone booth
while on a trip, left a small case with my Eurail pass on the train in
France, left my pocketbook in a convention center on another trip,
left my stuff at a pay phone at a hotel in Belize, and dropped my
checkbook in the zoo (also in Belize), left my coat on the plane in
Toronto, left a coat in the airport shuttle in Costa Rica, left a
sports drink bottle in EWR, left a fanny pack with all my receipts, a
credit card and some cash on the bus to the airport in Dublin, left
my cane in a restaurant in Bermuda-- it goes on and on.

Most of those things I've gone back and found them, except that when I
found my wallet it was in a trash can and most of the cash was gone.
(They didn't find all the cash.) I've never lost a ring (knock wood)
because I never take my wedding ring off and don't wear other rings.
My engagement ring is in a safe deposit box in the bank. I don't
carry umbrellas.

I always put my keys in my right pocket (if I have one and I try
always to have pockets). And dh has made a key hanger which is on the
inside of a closet door so we always put the keys there when we come
home. We have cars now that can only be locked with a key, so I can't
lock my keys inside anymore.

And I just don't carry much stuff. DH keeps his cell in the glove box
of the pickup. Mine is in my pocket book and is off most of the time
except if I'm making a long distance call. If I'm with dh, he pays
for stuff so I don't even carry money. When I get off a cruise ship I
have a small case around my neck with my room key and my passport, one
credit card and a small amount of cash. I also have my camera which I
do not take off. Nothing in my hands to put down and leave, except
now I carry a cane.

My sister has lost so many cell phones that her dh refuses to let her
use his. She also lost and ipod (? I think) by leaving it on the
train and whatever it was had all her phone numbers and account
numbers etc. in it.

I think we come by it honestly - my dad bought two pairs of shoes at
the same time and put one pair away for later. My grandmother noticed
that he was wearing two different shoes (they were the same color, but
one had a perforated vamp, and the other didn't) and he had indeed
worn one shoe from each pair until they were almost worn out without
ever noticing.

I did lose an underwater camera on a dive in Cozumel, but this wasn't
a case of leaving it somewhere. - someone took it from me to take my
picture and then I didn't get it clipped back onto my BCD good and it
apparently floated up to the top of a cave where it probably still is.
Dh threatened that the next time he would get my nipple pierced so
that I couldn't lose the next one.

There's only so much one can do

On Mar 17, 4:13 am, agsf_57 wrote:

[...]
If your son knew
leaving school grounds was wrong, but felt he could retrieve the ball
and return before he was noticed, then I would be a happy parent.

I wouldn't. There are good reasons why these rules are there, and
teaching a child that it's OK to break them teaches him, ultimately,
that he doesn't need to consider the effect of his actions on
others.

This is not to say that I want to teach my children to follow rules
unquestioningly - on the contrary, this is the exact reverse of what I
want to teach them. One of my dearest wishes for my children is for
them to grow up into the sort of people whose response to the
researchers in the Milgram experiments would have been "Are you out of
your bloody minds? I'm reporting you!" But breaking rules
unquestioningly is not actually any better than following them
unquestioningly. I want my children to grow up knowing they should
follow rules unless there is a good reason not to, and that wanting to
do things your way for the sheer hell of it is not a good enough
reason.


All the best,

Sarah
--
http://www.goodenoughmummy.typepad.com