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  #11  
Old June 8th 04, 04:33 PM
Lisa
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Sunday Papers


"Tiffany" wrote in message
...

"Moon Shyne" wrote in message
...

"Tiffany" wrote in message
...

"denanson" Dennis@Large .ie wrote in message
...
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/print...102285,00.html


snip

As for the hike in prescribed anti-depressants..... even in teens....

we
are
in a society that is looking for a quick fix. Though I know that those

meds
CAN help, what helps the most in the long run in therapy in one form

or
another. When someone tells me they are on anti-depressants, I like to

ask
them how long they have been on the med. Sometimes its years. But they

are
still depressed. Think about it.


In many cases, depression is caused by a chemical imbalance that

requires
on-going drug therapy, in exactly the same way that diabetics need to

keep
taking insulin on an on-going basis to stay healthy. My mom has been on
Parkinson's meds for years - yet she still has Parkinson's, and it

continues to
affect her more and more over time. Taking her meds hasn't made the

disease
magically go away.



Tiff said.........


But the sysmthoms go away or improve. My point is those on the drugs but

are
still depressed.



This is me.......

Meds for Parkinsons are intended to help control the symptons, they don't
exactly go away. Meds for depression help to stabilize the symptoms, they
don't exactly just go away.

Therapy for depression goes hand in hand with treatment by medications.
Why? Not to get to the root of it. That's a the misunderstanding. Therapy
is necessary to learn about, and develop cognitive coping skills. The
treating practitioner would need to know, upon diagnosis, how deep the
depression is. If the person has been untreated for a number of years, it
will take a number of years to get back in balance.

Moonshine said......
When you ask someone how long they've been on a med, do you also ask

them
if
they're depressed? Or is this simply a determination that you make on

your own?
How do you, or the person taking the meds, quantify the depression?



My turn.........
The only one capable of "qualifying" the depression is the treating
practitioner. Typically, anyone initially seeking treatment help is beyond
coping, let alone articulating for those that not informed.


Tiff said......

Moon, they tell me they are depressed. I do not make medical diagnoses.

What
do you mean how does one qualify the depression? If they have been

properly
diagnosed, they know there is a list of questions a doctor should ask.
Depending on the patient answers, the doctor will make a diagnose. This is
in regards to depression, not more severe issues like bi-polar. People

will
typically know when they are depressed.



LOL,,,,sorry, that made me laugh. Here's a scenario for you....

You stand in the soup isle of the grocery store,,,,,and you have a list in
your hand....and you look at your list. and you look at the shelf. You
forget what you're looking for. You look at your list. You look at the
shelf. you look at the shelf. you keep looking. Five minutes pass. You
look around. What was it that you wanted? Then you think, oh silly me, I'm
having an episode.



Yes, depression can be caused by a chemical imbalance. What promotes that
imbalance? Heredity?


Indicates a succeptability


Learned behavior?


No


Trauma?

Could, yup.


All the above. Folks that
tend to be depressed and stay depressed years after being on a med

typically
are so because they for whatever reason, have not dealt with the cause of
the depression.



Taking medication IS dealing with the physiological side of it. Recognizing
triggers, understanding symptoms(that's hard), developing coping skills by
actively participating in cognitive behavior therapy is the other part of
dealing with it.

There in lies the point Joelle made and a very good point it
is. People come to their own realization in their own time. What it sounds
like you are saying is it is caused by a chemical imbalance which won't

go
so a patient needs to stay on the drugs just like a diabetic. That is bull
****. Those cases are like I just stated are the ones that won't deal with
WHY they are depressed.



You know what? There's a program on the cable networks called "Out of
Order" . Try watching it with an open mind. The story is about a husband
and wife writing team, the character of the wife is clinically depressed.
Pretty frickin real depiction of what it's like living with someone that is
clinically depressed.

Lisa

  #12  
Old June 8th 04, 06:16 PM
Tiffany
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Sunday Papers


"Lisa" wrote in message
news

"Tiffany" wrote in message
...

"Moon Shyne" wrote in message
...

"Tiffany" wrote in message
...

"denanson" Dennis@Large .ie wrote in message
...
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/print...102285,00.html

snip

As for the hike in prescribed anti-depressants..... even in

teens....
we
are
in a society that is looking for a quick fix. Though I know that

those
meds
CAN help, what helps the most in the long run in therapy in one form

or
another. When someone tells me they are on anti-depressants, I like

to
ask
them how long they have been on the med. Sometimes its years. But

they
are
still depressed. Think about it.

In many cases, depression is caused by a chemical imbalance that

requires
on-going drug therapy, in exactly the same way that diabetics need to

keep
taking insulin on an on-going basis to stay healthy. My mom has been

on
Parkinson's meds for years - yet she still has Parkinson's, and it

continues to
affect her more and more over time. Taking her meds hasn't made the

disease
magically go away.



Tiff said.........


But the sysmthoms go away or improve. My point is those on the drugs but

are
still depressed.



This is me.......

Meds for Parkinsons are intended to help control the symptons, they don't
exactly go away. Meds for depression help to stabilize the symptoms, they
don't exactly just go away.

Therapy for depression goes hand in hand with treatment by medications.
Why? Not to get to the root of it. That's a the misunderstanding.

Therapy
is necessary to learn about, and develop cognitive coping skills. The
treating practitioner would need to know, upon diagnosis, how deep the
depression is. If the person has been untreated for a number of years, it
will take a number of years to get back in balance.

Moonshine said......
When you ask someone how long they've been on a med, do you also ask

them
if
they're depressed? Or is this simply a determination that you make on

your own?
How do you, or the person taking the meds, quantify the depression?



My turn.........
The only one capable of "qualifying" the depression is the treating
practitioner. Typically, anyone initially seeking treatment help is

beyond
coping, let alone articulating for those that not informed.


How can you say if one goes to the MD for depression they are beyond coping?
That can be a first step in coping and dealing with what is going on inside
ones mind.


Tiff said......

Moon, they tell me they are depressed. I do not make medical diagnoses.

What
do you mean how does one qualify the depression? If they have been

properly
diagnosed, they know there is a list of questions a doctor should ask.
Depending on the patient answers, the doctor will make a diagnose. This

is
in regards to depression, not more severe issues like bi-polar. People

will
typically know when they are depressed.



LOL,,,,sorry, that made me laugh. Here's a scenario for you....

You stand in the soup isle of the grocery store,,,,,and you have a list in
your hand....and you look at your list. and you look at the shelf. You
forget what you're looking for. You look at your list. You look at the
shelf. you look at the shelf. you keep looking. Five minutes pass. You
look around. What was it that you wanted? Then you think, oh silly me,

I'm
having an episode.


That alone would NOT make a diagnoses for depression. That can be a symthom
of the depression. I forget things all the time, though I wouldn't waste 5
minutes trying to remember, I just go on with the next thing on the list. I
am not depressed.


Yes, depression can be caused by a chemical imbalance. What promotes

that
imbalance? Heredity?


Indicates a succeptability


Learned behavior?


No


Trauma?

Could, yup.


All the above. Folks that
tend to be depressed and stay depressed years after being on a med

typically
are so because they for whatever reason, have not dealt with the cause

of
the depression.



Taking medication IS dealing with the physiological side of it.

Recognizing
triggers, understanding symptoms(that's hard), developing coping skills by
actively participating in cognitive behavior therapy is the other part of
dealing with it.

There in lies the point Joelle made and a very good point it
is. People come to their own realization in their own time. What it

sounds
like you are saying is it is caused by a chemical imbalance which won't

go
so a patient needs to stay on the drugs just like a diabetic. That is

bull
****. Those cases are like I just stated are the ones that won't deal

with
WHY they are depressed.



You know what? There's a program on the cable networks called "Out of
Order" . Try watching it with an open mind. The story is about a husband
and wife writing team, the character of the wife is clinically depressed.
Pretty frickin real depiction of what it's like living with someone that

is
clinically depressed.

Lisa


What makes you think I DON'T know what its like?

T


  #13  
Old June 8th 04, 06:36 PM
Lisa
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Sunday Papers


"Tiffany" wrote in message
...

"Lisa" wrote in message



My turn.........
The only one capable of "qualifying" the depression is the treating
practitioner. Typically, anyone initially seeking treatment help is

beyond
coping, let alone articulating for those that not informed.


How can you say if one goes to the MD for depression they are beyond

coping?
That can be a first step in coping and dealing with what is going on

inside
ones mind.



See now, I'm not saying anyone goes to an MD for depression. I'm saying
that they seek out a doctor because they haven't slept, or they are sleeping
all the time. Or they ache. Or they are constantly crying. Or they have
lost alot of weight. Or they have been having severe heart palpitations.
Or they can't get themselves to go anywhere. Or they have been overreacting
to the sillyiest things. or or or or. They go to the MD because they know
something is wrong, but not what.



People will typically know when they are depressed.





LOL,,,,sorry, that made me laugh. Here's a scenario for you....

You stand in the soup isle of the grocery store,,,,,and you have a list

in
your hand....and you look at your list. and you look at the shelf. You
forget what you're looking for. You look at your list. You look at the
shelf. you look at the shelf. you keep looking. Five minutes pass.

You
look around. What was it that you wanted? Then you think, oh silly me,

I'm
having an episode.



Sorry, I MEANT to say ......They don't think, "oh silly me"





That alone would NOT make a diagnoses for depression. That can be a

symthom
of the depression. I forget things all the time, though I wouldn't waste 5
minutes trying to remember, I just go on with the next thing on the list.

I
am not depressed.



Right, of course that alone does not warrent a diagnosis. I was intending
to create a picture where a reader would see how simply lost the mind
becomes,,,





You know what? There's a program on the cable networks called "Out of
Order" . Try watching it with an open mind. The story is about a

husband
and wife writing team, the character of the wife is clinically

depressed.
Pretty frickin real depiction of what it's like living with someone that

is
clinically depressed.

Lisa


What makes you think I DON'T know what its like?

T




Didn't say that Tiff, perhaps you read it that way. Have you heard of or
seen this program before?

Lisa

  #14  
Old June 8th 04, 08:02 PM
Tiffany
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Sunday Papers


"Lisa" wrote in message
. ..

"Tiffany" wrote in message
...

"Lisa" wrote in message



My turn.........
The only one capable of "qualifying" the depression is the treating
practitioner. Typically, anyone initially seeking treatment help is

beyond
coping, let alone articulating for those that not informed.


How can you say if one goes to the MD for depression they are beyond

coping?
That can be a first step in coping and dealing with what is going on

inside
ones mind.



See now, I'm not saying anyone goes to an MD for depression. I'm saying
that they seek out a doctor because they haven't slept, or they are

sleeping
all the time. Or they ache. Or they are constantly crying. Or they have
lost alot of weight. Or they have been having severe heart palpitations.
Or they can't get themselves to go anywhere. Or they have been

overreacting
to the sillyiest things. or or or or. They go to the MD because they

know
something is wrong, but not what.



People will typically know when they are depressed.





LOL,,,,sorry, that made me laugh. Here's a scenario for you....

You stand in the soup isle of the grocery store,,,,,and you have a

list
in
your hand....and you look at your list. and you look at the shelf.

You
forget what you're looking for. You look at your list. You look at

the
shelf. you look at the shelf. you keep looking. Five minutes pass.

You
look around. What was it that you wanted? Then you think, oh silly

me,
I'm
having an episode.



Sorry, I MEANT to say ......They don't think, "oh silly me"





That alone would NOT make a diagnoses for depression. That can be a

symthom
of the depression. I forget things all the time, though I wouldn't waste

5
minutes trying to remember, I just go on with the next thing on the

list.
I
am not depressed.



Right, of course that alone does not warrent a diagnosis. I was intending
to create a picture where a reader would see how simply lost the mind
becomes,,,





You know what? There's a program on the cable networks called "Out of
Order" . Try watching it with an open mind. The story is about a

husband
and wife writing team, the character of the wife is clinically

depressed.
Pretty frickin real depiction of what it's like living with someone

that
is
clinically depressed.

Lisa


What makes you think I DON'T know what its like?

T




Didn't say that Tiff, perhaps you read it that way. Have you heard of or
seen this program before?

Lisa


No, I don't watch much TV due to working and raising a kid. I also don't
have cable. If it were available on disk I would check it out though.


  #15  
Old June 9th 04, 05:32 AM
Cele
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Sunday Papers

On Mon, 7 Jun 2004 10:13:01 -0400, "Tiffany"
wrote:


As for the hike in prescribed anti-depressants..... even in teens.... we are
in a society that is looking for a quick fix. Though I know that those meds
CAN help, what helps the most in the long run in therapy in one form or
another. When someone tells me they are on anti-depressants, I like to ask
them how long they have been on the med. Sometimes its years. But they are
still depressed. Think about it.


Whoa.

First of all, virtually every credible source, when asked, will tell
you that a combination of meds and therapy are better for most people
than either alone. Meds and therapy alone have similar success rates.
It is categorically not true that therapy "helps the most" for
depression. This should surprise no one, given that research is
increasingly demonstrating a strong biological component to the
affective disorders. This means that chemistry rather than poor skills
or willpower plays the greater part in mood difficulties.

http://www.aafp.org/afp/991201ap/tips/20.html
http://articles.findarticles.com/p/a...60/ai_58252693

As for people still being depressed, while on antidepressants, I think
it highly unlikely that those who are *not* still depressed would be
talking about it, especially if they can expect to be met with an
attitude that suggests that depression is the result of a need for a
'quick fix'. Affective disorder has been strongly linked to clear
biological and neurological alterations. This is scientific fact. When
someone takes insulin to treat the biological condition of diabetes,
nobody accuses them of looking for a 'quick fix'. Yet when someone
takes medication to treat a neurobiological condition, the stigma is
unbelievable.

Tell you what. If there was a 'quick fix' for my kid, who is on
antidepressants, I'd use it in a minute. In a heartbeat. In a flash. I
would LOVE to see my daughter well and healthy as the result of a
quick fix. Unfortunately for her, antidepressants, inpatient
treatment, outpatient therapy, love and support from her family, and
most of all, raw determination to be whole and healthy, are all part
of her healing process.

But damn. If I could get a 'quick fix', I'd do it. Right now.

Cele
  #16  
Old June 9th 04, 05:39 AM
Cele
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Sunday Papers

On Tue, 8 Jun 2004 11:33:34 -0400, "Lisa" wrote:


[excellent post snipped for brevity]

You know what? There's a program on the cable networks called "Out of
Order" . Try watching it with an open mind. The story is about a husband
and wife writing team, the character of the wife is clinically depressed.
Pretty frickin real depiction of what it's like living with someone that is
clinically depressed.

Lisa


Well said, Lisa. I'm glad I came home to this thread already
developed, and your post already here, even if I did post before I
read the whole thing. I was just too damned ticked to deal with it as
well as you did.

Nice work.

thanks.

Cele
  #17  
Old June 9th 04, 02:25 PM
Tiffany
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Sunday Papers


"Cele" wrote in message
news
On Mon, 7 Jun 2004 10:13:01 -0400, "Tiffany"
wrote:


As for the hike in prescribed anti-depressants..... even in teens.... we

are
in a society that is looking for a quick fix. Though I know that those

meds
CAN help, what helps the most in the long run in therapy in one form or
another. When someone tells me they are on anti-depressants, I like to

ask
them how long they have been on the med. Sometimes its years. But they

are
still depressed. Think about it.


Whoa.

First of all, virtually every credible source, when asked, will tell
you that a combination of meds and therapy are better for most people
than either alone. Meds and therapy alone have similar success rates.
It is categorically not true that therapy "helps the most" for
depression. This should surprise no one, given that research is
increasingly demonstrating a strong biological component to the
affective disorders. This means that chemistry rather than poor skills
or willpower plays the greater part in mood difficulties.

http://www.aafp.org/afp/991201ap/tips/20.html
http://articles.findarticles.com/p/a...60/ai_58252693


I did already acknowledge that point in Joelle's post. I also never said
that someone should not take meds at all. But in your above statement you
said that med and therapy alone have similar success rates to the combo. of
meds and therapy. I am not arguing what is better or not. My point has been
the dangers of meds that most aren't aware of due to the trickery business
of pharmaceuticals.


As for people still being depressed, while on antidepressants, I think
it highly unlikely that those who are *not* still depressed would be
talking about it, especially if they can expect to be met with an
attitude that suggests that depression is the result of a need for a
'quick fix'. Affective disorder has been strongly linked to clear
biological and neurological alterations. This is scientific fact. When
someone takes insulin to treat the biological condition of diabetes,
nobody accuses them of looking for a 'quick fix'. Yet when someone
takes medication to treat a neurobiological condition, the stigma is
unbelievable.

Tell you what. If there was a 'quick fix' for my kid, who is on
antidepressants, I'd use it in a minute. In a heartbeat. In a flash. I
would LOVE to see my daughter well and healthy as the result of a
quick fix. Unfortunately for her, antidepressants, inpatient
treatment, outpatient therapy, love and support from her family, and
most of all, raw determination to be whole and healthy, are all part
of her healing process.

But damn. If I could get a 'quick fix', I'd do it. Right now.

Cele


Your daughter's situation is not the normal. She has been through something
very traumatic. Something like that will take years and years to heal from.


  #18  
Old June 9th 04, 02:40 PM
Tiffany
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Sunday Papers


"'Kate" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 8 Jun 2004 09:59:46 -0400, "Tiffany"

"Moon Shyne" wrote in message
...

"Tiffany" wrote in message
...

"denanson" Dennis@Large .ie wrote in message
...
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/print...102285,00.html

snip



snipped
That's a contradictory statement because if you can acknowledge that
depression is hereditary and caused by a chemical imbalance, then taking
meds to correct that imbalance is dealing with the cause of the
depression. The medicine does not eliminate feelings of sadness, it
just makes depression more manageable, of shorter duration, or lesser
depth. It doesn't take away the feelings.


I haven't said one shouldn't take meds. I have already ackwledged the point
Joelle brought up about the combination of med/therapy being best.



People on anti-depressents for a chemical imbalance are not using it as
a crutch or to avoid talking about traumatic experiences although those
are contributory factors that will often trigger depression in those who
are predisposed. Life experiences contribute to the expression of the
depression. Therapy can help but it's not a cure-all and it is limited.
It's difficult to say what came first, the depression or the "problems".
Depression does cause problems in relationships, in school, on the job
site. Problems in relationships, school, or on the job can exacerbate
depression. The effectiveness of therapy depends on the patient making
and keeping the appointments as well as his/her level of commitment.
One cannot begin to do any kind of self-work to begin to discover if
life-style, perception, or interpretation is even a problem if it's
physically impossible to up to take a shower. Practical matters have to
come first and thankfully, there are antidepressants that seem to have
some affect on symptoms so that therapy can attempt to discern the
impact that the disease has on ones life.


This is all very true but I know tons of folks who have been prescribed
anti-depressants but the doctor never mentioned the need for another
therapy. So in the patients mind, this pill is the happy pill and will make
all the pain go away. Plenty of people call Prozac their happy pills. My
point has never been people should not take meds...... it has been the
dangers involved in taking meds that aren't brought to their attention. But
you say people on the meds aren't using it as a crutch or to avoid talking
about traumatic experiences. Honestly, no one knows the motives of millions
of people. I would say some use the meds the way they are meant to be used,
others use it just as a happy pill and others use it as the only way it will
help them be happy. It is probably the last 2 groups that don't find
themselves truly getting out of the depression and still barely coping.


Do most people know when they are depressed? I think that in American
culture, many don't.


That is right, but most don't know much at all of what is happening to their
body/mind. There is a total unawareness of self.

Some won't admit that they need help because
mental illness is still considered a weakness.


That is probably true to a point but with the high amount of people taking
these meds, the TV ads, ect. it is almost the normal to be on
anti-depressants anymore.

It's impossible to think
that there is hope when one is depressed and when one is less depressed,
it's not as urgent. Anti-depressents help many people to live normal
lives.

'Kate



  #19  
Old June 9th 04, 02:40 PM
lm
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Sunday Papers

On Wed, 9 Jun 2004 09:25:50 -0400, "Tiffany"
wrote:


"Cele" wrote in message
news
On Mon, 7 Jun 2004 10:13:01 -0400, "Tiffany"
wrote:


As for the hike in prescribed anti-depressants..... even in teens.... we

are
in a society that is looking for a quick fix. Though I know that those

meds
CAN help, what helps the most in the long run in therapy in one form or
another. When someone tells me they are on anti-depressants, I like to

ask
them how long they have been on the med. Sometimes its years. But they

are
still depressed. Think about it.


Whoa.

First of all, virtually every credible source, when asked, will tell
you that a combination of meds and therapy are better for most people
than either alone. Meds and therapy alone have similar success rates.
It is categorically not true that therapy "helps the most" for
depression. This should surprise no one, given that research is
increasingly demonstrating a strong biological component to the
affective disorders. This means that chemistry rather than poor skills
or willpower plays the greater part in mood difficulties.

http://www.aafp.org/afp/991201ap/tips/20.html
http://articles.findarticles.com/p/a...60/ai_58252693


I did already acknowledge that point in Joelle's post. I also never said
that someone should not take meds at all. But in your above statement you
said that med and therapy alone have similar success rates to the combo. of
meds and therapy.


I think she meant similar to each other, with the combo being better
than either on their own.

lm
  #20  
Old June 9th 04, 03:04 PM
Cele
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Sunday Papers

On Wed, 09 Jun 2004 13:40:11 GMT, lm
wrote:

On Wed, 9 Jun 2004 09:25:50 -0400, "Tiffany"
wrote:


"Cele" wrote in message
news
On Mon, 7 Jun 2004 10:13:01 -0400, "Tiffany"
wrote:


As for the hike in prescribed anti-depressants..... even in teens.... we

are
in a society that is looking for a quick fix. Though I know that those

meds
CAN help, what helps the most in the long run in therapy in one form or
another. When someone tells me they are on anti-depressants, I like to

ask
them how long they have been on the med. Sometimes its years. But they

are
still depressed. Think about it.

Whoa.

First of all, virtually every credible source, when asked, will tell
you that a combination of meds and therapy are better for most people
than either alone. Meds and therapy alone have similar success rates.
It is categorically not true that therapy "helps the most" for
depression. This should surprise no one, given that research is
increasingly demonstrating a strong biological component to the
affective disorders. This means that chemistry rather than poor skills
or willpower plays the greater part in mood difficulties.

http://www.aafp.org/afp/991201ap/tips/20.html
http://articles.findarticles.com/p/a...60/ai_58252693


I did already acknowledge that point in Joelle's post. I also never said
that someone should not take meds at all. But in your above statement you
said that med and therapy alone have similar success rates to the combo. of
meds and therapy.


I think she meant similar to each other, with the combo being better
than either on their own.

lm


That's correct. That's what I meant.

Cele
 




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