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#11
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Sunday Papers
"Tiffany" wrote in message ... "Moon Shyne" wrote in message ... "Tiffany" wrote in message ... "denanson" Dennis@Large .ie wrote in message ... http://observer.guardian.co.uk/print...102285,00.html snip As for the hike in prescribed anti-depressants..... even in teens.... we are in a society that is looking for a quick fix. Though I know that those meds CAN help, what helps the most in the long run in therapy in one form or another. When someone tells me they are on anti-depressants, I like to ask them how long they have been on the med. Sometimes its years. But they are still depressed. Think about it. In many cases, depression is caused by a chemical imbalance that requires on-going drug therapy, in exactly the same way that diabetics need to keep taking insulin on an on-going basis to stay healthy. My mom has been on Parkinson's meds for years - yet she still has Parkinson's, and it continues to affect her more and more over time. Taking her meds hasn't made the disease magically go away. Tiff said......... But the sysmthoms go away or improve. My point is those on the drugs but are still depressed. This is me....... Meds for Parkinsons are intended to help control the symptons, they don't exactly go away. Meds for depression help to stabilize the symptoms, they don't exactly just go away. Therapy for depression goes hand in hand with treatment by medications. Why? Not to get to the root of it. That's a the misunderstanding. Therapy is necessary to learn about, and develop cognitive coping skills. The treating practitioner would need to know, upon diagnosis, how deep the depression is. If the person has been untreated for a number of years, it will take a number of years to get back in balance. Moonshine said...... When you ask someone how long they've been on a med, do you also ask them if they're depressed? Or is this simply a determination that you make on your own? How do you, or the person taking the meds, quantify the depression? My turn......... The only one capable of "qualifying" the depression is the treating practitioner. Typically, anyone initially seeking treatment help is beyond coping, let alone articulating for those that not informed. Tiff said...... Moon, they tell me they are depressed. I do not make medical diagnoses. What do you mean how does one qualify the depression? If they have been properly diagnosed, they know there is a list of questions a doctor should ask. Depending on the patient answers, the doctor will make a diagnose. This is in regards to depression, not more severe issues like bi-polar. People will typically know when they are depressed. LOL,,,,sorry, that made me laugh. Here's a scenario for you.... You stand in the soup isle of the grocery store,,,,,and you have a list in your hand....and you look at your list. and you look at the shelf. You forget what you're looking for. You look at your list. You look at the shelf. you look at the shelf. you keep looking. Five minutes pass. You look around. What was it that you wanted? Then you think, oh silly me, I'm having an episode. Yes, depression can be caused by a chemical imbalance. What promotes that imbalance? Heredity? Indicates a succeptability Learned behavior? No Trauma? Could, yup. All the above. Folks that tend to be depressed and stay depressed years after being on a med typically are so because they for whatever reason, have not dealt with the cause of the depression. Taking medication IS dealing with the physiological side of it. Recognizing triggers, understanding symptoms(that's hard), developing coping skills by actively participating in cognitive behavior therapy is the other part of dealing with it. There in lies the point Joelle made and a very good point it is. People come to their own realization in their own time. What it sounds like you are saying is it is caused by a chemical imbalance which won't go so a patient needs to stay on the drugs just like a diabetic. That is bull ****. Those cases are like I just stated are the ones that won't deal with WHY they are depressed. You know what? There's a program on the cable networks called "Out of Order" . Try watching it with an open mind. The story is about a husband and wife writing team, the character of the wife is clinically depressed. Pretty frickin real depiction of what it's like living with someone that is clinically depressed. Lisa |
#12
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Sunday Papers
"Lisa" wrote in message news "Tiffany" wrote in message ... "Moon Shyne" wrote in message ... "Tiffany" wrote in message ... "denanson" Dennis@Large .ie wrote in message ... http://observer.guardian.co.uk/print...102285,00.html snip As for the hike in prescribed anti-depressants..... even in teens.... we are in a society that is looking for a quick fix. Though I know that those meds CAN help, what helps the most in the long run in therapy in one form or another. When someone tells me they are on anti-depressants, I like to ask them how long they have been on the med. Sometimes its years. But they are still depressed. Think about it. In many cases, depression is caused by a chemical imbalance that requires on-going drug therapy, in exactly the same way that diabetics need to keep taking insulin on an on-going basis to stay healthy. My mom has been on Parkinson's meds for years - yet she still has Parkinson's, and it continues to affect her more and more over time. Taking her meds hasn't made the disease magically go away. Tiff said......... But the sysmthoms go away or improve. My point is those on the drugs but are still depressed. This is me....... Meds for Parkinsons are intended to help control the symptons, they don't exactly go away. Meds for depression help to stabilize the symptoms, they don't exactly just go away. Therapy for depression goes hand in hand with treatment by medications. Why? Not to get to the root of it. That's a the misunderstanding. Therapy is necessary to learn about, and develop cognitive coping skills. The treating practitioner would need to know, upon diagnosis, how deep the depression is. If the person has been untreated for a number of years, it will take a number of years to get back in balance. Moonshine said...... When you ask someone how long they've been on a med, do you also ask them if they're depressed? Or is this simply a determination that you make on your own? How do you, or the person taking the meds, quantify the depression? My turn......... The only one capable of "qualifying" the depression is the treating practitioner. Typically, anyone initially seeking treatment help is beyond coping, let alone articulating for those that not informed. How can you say if one goes to the MD for depression they are beyond coping? That can be a first step in coping and dealing with what is going on inside ones mind. Tiff said...... Moon, they tell me they are depressed. I do not make medical diagnoses. What do you mean how does one qualify the depression? If they have been properly diagnosed, they know there is a list of questions a doctor should ask. Depending on the patient answers, the doctor will make a diagnose. This is in regards to depression, not more severe issues like bi-polar. People will typically know when they are depressed. LOL,,,,sorry, that made me laugh. Here's a scenario for you.... You stand in the soup isle of the grocery store,,,,,and you have a list in your hand....and you look at your list. and you look at the shelf. You forget what you're looking for. You look at your list. You look at the shelf. you look at the shelf. you keep looking. Five minutes pass. You look around. What was it that you wanted? Then you think, oh silly me, I'm having an episode. That alone would NOT make a diagnoses for depression. That can be a symthom of the depression. I forget things all the time, though I wouldn't waste 5 minutes trying to remember, I just go on with the next thing on the list. I am not depressed. Yes, depression can be caused by a chemical imbalance. What promotes that imbalance? Heredity? Indicates a succeptability Learned behavior? No Trauma? Could, yup. All the above. Folks that tend to be depressed and stay depressed years after being on a med typically are so because they for whatever reason, have not dealt with the cause of the depression. Taking medication IS dealing with the physiological side of it. Recognizing triggers, understanding symptoms(that's hard), developing coping skills by actively participating in cognitive behavior therapy is the other part of dealing with it. There in lies the point Joelle made and a very good point it is. People come to their own realization in their own time. What it sounds like you are saying is it is caused by a chemical imbalance which won't go so a patient needs to stay on the drugs just like a diabetic. That is bull ****. Those cases are like I just stated are the ones that won't deal with WHY they are depressed. You know what? There's a program on the cable networks called "Out of Order" . Try watching it with an open mind. The story is about a husband and wife writing team, the character of the wife is clinically depressed. Pretty frickin real depiction of what it's like living with someone that is clinically depressed. Lisa What makes you think I DON'T know what its like? T |
#13
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Sunday Papers
"Tiffany" wrote in message ... "Lisa" wrote in message My turn......... The only one capable of "qualifying" the depression is the treating practitioner. Typically, anyone initially seeking treatment help is beyond coping, let alone articulating for those that not informed. How can you say if one goes to the MD for depression they are beyond coping? That can be a first step in coping and dealing with what is going on inside ones mind. See now, I'm not saying anyone goes to an MD for depression. I'm saying that they seek out a doctor because they haven't slept, or they are sleeping all the time. Or they ache. Or they are constantly crying. Or they have lost alot of weight. Or they have been having severe heart palpitations. Or they can't get themselves to go anywhere. Or they have been overreacting to the sillyiest things. or or or or. They go to the MD because they know something is wrong, but not what. People will typically know when they are depressed. LOL,,,,sorry, that made me laugh. Here's a scenario for you.... You stand in the soup isle of the grocery store,,,,,and you have a list in your hand....and you look at your list. and you look at the shelf. You forget what you're looking for. You look at your list. You look at the shelf. you look at the shelf. you keep looking. Five minutes pass. You look around. What was it that you wanted? Then you think, oh silly me, I'm having an episode. Sorry, I MEANT to say ......They don't think, "oh silly me" That alone would NOT make a diagnoses for depression. That can be a symthom of the depression. I forget things all the time, though I wouldn't waste 5 minutes trying to remember, I just go on with the next thing on the list. I am not depressed. Right, of course that alone does not warrent a diagnosis. I was intending to create a picture where a reader would see how simply lost the mind becomes,,, You know what? There's a program on the cable networks called "Out of Order" . Try watching it with an open mind. The story is about a husband and wife writing team, the character of the wife is clinically depressed. Pretty frickin real depiction of what it's like living with someone that is clinically depressed. Lisa What makes you think I DON'T know what its like? T Didn't say that Tiff, perhaps you read it that way. Have you heard of or seen this program before? Lisa |
#14
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Sunday Papers
"Lisa" wrote in message . .. "Tiffany" wrote in message ... "Lisa" wrote in message My turn......... The only one capable of "qualifying" the depression is the treating practitioner. Typically, anyone initially seeking treatment help is beyond coping, let alone articulating for those that not informed. How can you say if one goes to the MD for depression they are beyond coping? That can be a first step in coping and dealing with what is going on inside ones mind. See now, I'm not saying anyone goes to an MD for depression. I'm saying that they seek out a doctor because they haven't slept, or they are sleeping all the time. Or they ache. Or they are constantly crying. Or they have lost alot of weight. Or they have been having severe heart palpitations. Or they can't get themselves to go anywhere. Or they have been overreacting to the sillyiest things. or or or or. They go to the MD because they know something is wrong, but not what. People will typically know when they are depressed. LOL,,,,sorry, that made me laugh. Here's a scenario for you.... You stand in the soup isle of the grocery store,,,,,and you have a list in your hand....and you look at your list. and you look at the shelf. You forget what you're looking for. You look at your list. You look at the shelf. you look at the shelf. you keep looking. Five minutes pass. You look around. What was it that you wanted? Then you think, oh silly me, I'm having an episode. Sorry, I MEANT to say ......They don't think, "oh silly me" That alone would NOT make a diagnoses for depression. That can be a symthom of the depression. I forget things all the time, though I wouldn't waste 5 minutes trying to remember, I just go on with the next thing on the list. I am not depressed. Right, of course that alone does not warrent a diagnosis. I was intending to create a picture where a reader would see how simply lost the mind becomes,,, You know what? There's a program on the cable networks called "Out of Order" . Try watching it with an open mind. The story is about a husband and wife writing team, the character of the wife is clinically depressed. Pretty frickin real depiction of what it's like living with someone that is clinically depressed. Lisa What makes you think I DON'T know what its like? T Didn't say that Tiff, perhaps you read it that way. Have you heard of or seen this program before? Lisa No, I don't watch much TV due to working and raising a kid. I also don't have cable. If it were available on disk I would check it out though. |
#15
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Sunday Papers
On Mon, 7 Jun 2004 10:13:01 -0400, "Tiffany"
wrote: As for the hike in prescribed anti-depressants..... even in teens.... we are in a society that is looking for a quick fix. Though I know that those meds CAN help, what helps the most in the long run in therapy in one form or another. When someone tells me they are on anti-depressants, I like to ask them how long they have been on the med. Sometimes its years. But they are still depressed. Think about it. Whoa. First of all, virtually every credible source, when asked, will tell you that a combination of meds and therapy are better for most people than either alone. Meds and therapy alone have similar success rates. It is categorically not true that therapy "helps the most" for depression. This should surprise no one, given that research is increasingly demonstrating a strong biological component to the affective disorders. This means that chemistry rather than poor skills or willpower plays the greater part in mood difficulties. http://www.aafp.org/afp/991201ap/tips/20.html http://articles.findarticles.com/p/a...60/ai_58252693 As for people still being depressed, while on antidepressants, I think it highly unlikely that those who are *not* still depressed would be talking about it, especially if they can expect to be met with an attitude that suggests that depression is the result of a need for a 'quick fix'. Affective disorder has been strongly linked to clear biological and neurological alterations. This is scientific fact. When someone takes insulin to treat the biological condition of diabetes, nobody accuses them of looking for a 'quick fix'. Yet when someone takes medication to treat a neurobiological condition, the stigma is unbelievable. Tell you what. If there was a 'quick fix' for my kid, who is on antidepressants, I'd use it in a minute. In a heartbeat. In a flash. I would LOVE to see my daughter well and healthy as the result of a quick fix. Unfortunately for her, antidepressants, inpatient treatment, outpatient therapy, love and support from her family, and most of all, raw determination to be whole and healthy, are all part of her healing process. But damn. If I could get a 'quick fix', I'd do it. Right now. Cele |
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Sunday Papers
On Tue, 8 Jun 2004 11:33:34 -0400, "Lisa" wrote:
[excellent post snipped for brevity] You know what? There's a program on the cable networks called "Out of Order" . Try watching it with an open mind. The story is about a husband and wife writing team, the character of the wife is clinically depressed. Pretty frickin real depiction of what it's like living with someone that is clinically depressed. Lisa Well said, Lisa. I'm glad I came home to this thread already developed, and your post already here, even if I did post before I read the whole thing. I was just too damned ticked to deal with it as well as you did. Nice work. thanks. Cele |
#17
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Sunday Papers
"Cele" wrote in message news On Mon, 7 Jun 2004 10:13:01 -0400, "Tiffany" wrote: As for the hike in prescribed anti-depressants..... even in teens.... we are in a society that is looking for a quick fix. Though I know that those meds CAN help, what helps the most in the long run in therapy in one form or another. When someone tells me they are on anti-depressants, I like to ask them how long they have been on the med. Sometimes its years. But they are still depressed. Think about it. Whoa. First of all, virtually every credible source, when asked, will tell you that a combination of meds and therapy are better for most people than either alone. Meds and therapy alone have similar success rates. It is categorically not true that therapy "helps the most" for depression. This should surprise no one, given that research is increasingly demonstrating a strong biological component to the affective disorders. This means that chemistry rather than poor skills or willpower plays the greater part in mood difficulties. http://www.aafp.org/afp/991201ap/tips/20.html http://articles.findarticles.com/p/a...60/ai_58252693 I did already acknowledge that point in Joelle's post. I also never said that someone should not take meds at all. But in your above statement you said that med and therapy alone have similar success rates to the combo. of meds and therapy. I am not arguing what is better or not. My point has been the dangers of meds that most aren't aware of due to the trickery business of pharmaceuticals. As for people still being depressed, while on antidepressants, I think it highly unlikely that those who are *not* still depressed would be talking about it, especially if they can expect to be met with an attitude that suggests that depression is the result of a need for a 'quick fix'. Affective disorder has been strongly linked to clear biological and neurological alterations. This is scientific fact. When someone takes insulin to treat the biological condition of diabetes, nobody accuses them of looking for a 'quick fix'. Yet when someone takes medication to treat a neurobiological condition, the stigma is unbelievable. Tell you what. If there was a 'quick fix' for my kid, who is on antidepressants, I'd use it in a minute. In a heartbeat. In a flash. I would LOVE to see my daughter well and healthy as the result of a quick fix. Unfortunately for her, antidepressants, inpatient treatment, outpatient therapy, love and support from her family, and most of all, raw determination to be whole and healthy, are all part of her healing process. But damn. If I could get a 'quick fix', I'd do it. Right now. Cele Your daughter's situation is not the normal. She has been through something very traumatic. Something like that will take years and years to heal from. |
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Sunday Papers
"'Kate" wrote in message ... On Tue, 8 Jun 2004 09:59:46 -0400, "Tiffany" "Moon Shyne" wrote in message ... "Tiffany" wrote in message ... "denanson" Dennis@Large .ie wrote in message ... http://observer.guardian.co.uk/print...102285,00.html snip snipped That's a contradictory statement because if you can acknowledge that depression is hereditary and caused by a chemical imbalance, then taking meds to correct that imbalance is dealing with the cause of the depression. The medicine does not eliminate feelings of sadness, it just makes depression more manageable, of shorter duration, or lesser depth. It doesn't take away the feelings. I haven't said one shouldn't take meds. I have already ackwledged the point Joelle brought up about the combination of med/therapy being best. People on anti-depressents for a chemical imbalance are not using it as a crutch or to avoid talking about traumatic experiences although those are contributory factors that will often trigger depression in those who are predisposed. Life experiences contribute to the expression of the depression. Therapy can help but it's not a cure-all and it is limited. It's difficult to say what came first, the depression or the "problems". Depression does cause problems in relationships, in school, on the job site. Problems in relationships, school, or on the job can exacerbate depression. The effectiveness of therapy depends on the patient making and keeping the appointments as well as his/her level of commitment. One cannot begin to do any kind of self-work to begin to discover if life-style, perception, or interpretation is even a problem if it's physically impossible to up to take a shower. Practical matters have to come first and thankfully, there are antidepressants that seem to have some affect on symptoms so that therapy can attempt to discern the impact that the disease has on ones life. This is all very true but I know tons of folks who have been prescribed anti-depressants but the doctor never mentioned the need for another therapy. So in the patients mind, this pill is the happy pill and will make all the pain go away. Plenty of people call Prozac their happy pills. My point has never been people should not take meds...... it has been the dangers involved in taking meds that aren't brought to their attention. But you say people on the meds aren't using it as a crutch or to avoid talking about traumatic experiences. Honestly, no one knows the motives of millions of people. I would say some use the meds the way they are meant to be used, others use it just as a happy pill and others use it as the only way it will help them be happy. It is probably the last 2 groups that don't find themselves truly getting out of the depression and still barely coping. Do most people know when they are depressed? I think that in American culture, many don't. That is right, but most don't know much at all of what is happening to their body/mind. There is a total unawareness of self. Some won't admit that they need help because mental illness is still considered a weakness. That is probably true to a point but with the high amount of people taking these meds, the TV ads, ect. it is almost the normal to be on anti-depressants anymore. It's impossible to think that there is hope when one is depressed and when one is less depressed, it's not as urgent. Anti-depressents help many people to live normal lives. 'Kate |
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Sunday Papers
On Wed, 9 Jun 2004 09:25:50 -0400, "Tiffany"
wrote: "Cele" wrote in message news On Mon, 7 Jun 2004 10:13:01 -0400, "Tiffany" wrote: As for the hike in prescribed anti-depressants..... even in teens.... we are in a society that is looking for a quick fix. Though I know that those meds CAN help, what helps the most in the long run in therapy in one form or another. When someone tells me they are on anti-depressants, I like to ask them how long they have been on the med. Sometimes its years. But they are still depressed. Think about it. Whoa. First of all, virtually every credible source, when asked, will tell you that a combination of meds and therapy are better for most people than either alone. Meds and therapy alone have similar success rates. It is categorically not true that therapy "helps the most" for depression. This should surprise no one, given that research is increasingly demonstrating a strong biological component to the affective disorders. This means that chemistry rather than poor skills or willpower plays the greater part in mood difficulties. http://www.aafp.org/afp/991201ap/tips/20.html http://articles.findarticles.com/p/a...60/ai_58252693 I did already acknowledge that point in Joelle's post. I also never said that someone should not take meds at all. But in your above statement you said that med and therapy alone have similar success rates to the combo. of meds and therapy. I think she meant similar to each other, with the combo being better than either on their own. lm |
#20
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Sunday Papers
On Wed, 09 Jun 2004 13:40:11 GMT, lm
wrote: On Wed, 9 Jun 2004 09:25:50 -0400, "Tiffany" wrote: "Cele" wrote in message news On Mon, 7 Jun 2004 10:13:01 -0400, "Tiffany" wrote: As for the hike in prescribed anti-depressants..... even in teens.... we are in a society that is looking for a quick fix. Though I know that those meds CAN help, what helps the most in the long run in therapy in one form or another. When someone tells me they are on anti-depressants, I like to ask them how long they have been on the med. Sometimes its years. But they are still depressed. Think about it. Whoa. First of all, virtually every credible source, when asked, will tell you that a combination of meds and therapy are better for most people than either alone. Meds and therapy alone have similar success rates. It is categorically not true that therapy "helps the most" for depression. This should surprise no one, given that research is increasingly demonstrating a strong biological component to the affective disorders. This means that chemistry rather than poor skills or willpower plays the greater part in mood difficulties. http://www.aafp.org/afp/991201ap/tips/20.html http://articles.findarticles.com/p/a...60/ai_58252693 I did already acknowledge that point in Joelle's post. I also never said that someone should not take meds at all. But in your above statement you said that med and therapy alone have similar success rates to the combo. of meds and therapy. I think she meant similar to each other, with the combo being better than either on their own. lm That's correct. That's what I meant. Cele |
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