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advice needed: toddler indecision



 
 
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  #1  
Old June 28th 05, 08:53 PM
Richard
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Default advice needed: toddler indecision

My 32mo daughter often says "no" when she means "yes". As a simple
example, my wife leaves in the morning before I do (I take DD to
daycare). As my wife is leaving, she'll ask DD for good-bye hugs and
kisses. DD sometimes says, no, she doesn't want any. Maybe she's
playing and doesn't want to be distracted, sometimes she's just
exercising her toddler's prerogative to say no. She doesn't want any
hugs, of course, until the minute my wife is gone. Then, after it's
too late, she starts her pleading, "Mommy huggie! Mommy huggie!"
"It's too late, Sweetheart. Mommy's at work now." Meltdown, tears
and all.

For a while, we've assumed (correctly, I think) that she lacks the
neural connectivity needed to conceptualize causality, so have given
her what she says she wants when she says she wants it. As this
behavior is becoming more frequent, we're leaning toward just letting
her suffer the consequences of her initial rejection and endure her
resulting meltdowns, even if we're in a position to give her what she
wants.

I have a few specific questions.

- Is this common behavior at this age?

- If so, when do kids outgrow it?

- Has anyone ever dealt with this before? (successfully or not,
stories of failures are most welcome)

- Given a recent longitudinal study that showed that teenagers lack
much of the circuitry necessary to reason logically, does it not
make sense to dismiss this as part of being two and just
accommodate DD, or is she likely to outgrow this faster if we hold
her to her word, no matter how easily remedied and no matter how
painful?

Fwiw, I have tried discussing this with her and she sometimes seems to
understand. Yesterday, she even repeated back to me, "Micaela want
it, Micaela say 'yes'." As recently as this morning, though, she had
yet to take that advice.

Richard
dad to 32 mo Micaela

  #2  
Old June 28th 05, 09:26 PM
Donna
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"Richard" wrote in message
...

For a while, we've assumed (correctly, I think) that she lacks the
neural connectivity needed to conceptualize causality, so have given
her what she says she wants when she says she wants it. As this
behavior is becoming more frequent, we're leaning toward just letting
her suffer the consequences of her initial rejection and endure her
resulting meltdowns, even if we're in a position to give her what she
wants.

I have a few specific questions.

- Is this common behavior at this age?


My daughter is 32 months old as well, and she's just beginning to grow out
of this stage. I've considered it perfectly normal behaviour for her.

- If so, when do kids outgrow it?


I've heard that this is a terrible two thing, and the kids outgrow it
relatively quickly. Sarah went through this phase in about 4 months.



- Has anyone ever dealt with this before? (successfully or not,
stories of failures are most welcome)


Every day. I give Sarah binary choices and she lives with her choice.
It's not a point of great drama, actually. I'll say, Sarah, would you like
to watch Wiggles or Sesame Street. She'll say Wiggles, then once the DVD is
on, she'll say NO! Sesame!. I generally reply with "You chose Wiggles, so
that is what we're watching." She fusses a bit, end of story. If she
winds herself up into a major meltdown, i'll offer her the choice of taking
a time out until she can control herself, to which she generally replies
"No, I all done."


- Given a recent longitudinal study that showed that teenagers lack
much of the circuitry necessary to reason logically, does it not
make sense to dismiss this as part of being two and just
accommodate DD, or is she likely to outgrow this faster if we hold
her to her word, no matter how easily remedied and no matter how
painful?


The things that trigger this behaviour in Sarah are pretty minor. My
opinion is that what is going on is not dissatisfaction about the choice she
made, but getting used to the idea of *making* choices. She's learning how
to make choices. Anyway, that is a long way of saying I offer her choices,
she makes them, and lives with her choice. I don't allow her to change her
mind, because I really don't believe that the problem is related to the item
she chose. It's learning to choose, if you get my meaning.

HTH

Donna

  #3  
Old June 28th 05, 09:26 PM
Scott
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Richard wrote:
My 32mo daughter often says "no" when she means "yes". As a simple
example, my wife leaves in the morning before I do (I take DD to
daycare). As my wife is leaving, she'll ask DD for good-bye hugs and
kisses. DD sometimes says, no, she doesn't want any. Maybe she's


Here is the problem. You are giving her a choice.

If you don't want the answer to be no -- and then have
a meltdown -- don't ask the question. It's really
that simple.

I suggest you change the routine so that your wife just
hugs and kisses your daughter, but doesn't do any asking.
Of course, at some point, you'll have a daughter not
wanting a hug/kiss. At which point you have this
interaction:

Daughter: I don't want a hug/kiss.
Mother: You don't have to. I'm doing this for me.
hug, kiss. Bye.

FWIW, I think your daughter understands perfectly well
what she's doing. Look at all the attention she's getting
when she does it. She knows exactly which of your
buttons to push. It is very common behavior you are
seeing and you are doing everything in your power
to promote it.

Scott DD 12 and DS 9

  #4  
Old June 28th 05, 11:12 PM
Ericka Kammerer
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Richard wrote:

My 32mo daughter often says "no" when she means "yes". As a simple
example, my wife leaves in the morning before I do (I take DD to
daycare). As my wife is leaving, she'll ask DD for good-bye hugs and
kisses. DD sometimes says, no, she doesn't want any. Maybe she's
playing and doesn't want to be distracted, sometimes she's just
exercising her toddler's prerogative to say no. She doesn't want any
hugs, of course, until the minute my wife is gone. Then, after it's
too late, she starts her pleading, "Mommy huggie! Mommy huggie!"
"It's too late, Sweetheart. Mommy's at work now." Meltdown, tears
and all.

For a while, we've assumed (correctly, I think) that she lacks the
neural connectivity needed to conceptualize causality, so have given
her what she says she wants when she says she wants it. As this
behavior is becoming more frequent, we're leaning toward just letting
her suffer the consequences of her initial rejection and endure her
resulting meltdowns, even if we're in a position to give her what she
wants.

I have a few specific questions.

- Is this common behavior at this age?

- If so, when do kids outgrow it?

- Has anyone ever dealt with this before? (successfully or not,
stories of failures are most welcome)

- Given a recent longitudinal study that showed that teenagers lack
much of the circuitry necessary to reason logically, does it not
make sense to dismiss this as part of being two and just
accommodate DD, or is she likely to outgrow this faster if we hold
her to her word, no matter how easily remedied and no matter how
painful?

Fwiw, I have tried discussing this with her and she sometimes seems to
understand. Yesterday, she even repeated back to me, "Micaela want
it, Micaela say 'yes'." As recently as this morning, though, she had
yet to take that advice.


Honestly, I think she's likely well into the age range
where she should be having a decent grasp on cause and effect,
and it's possible that your believing she wasn't quite ready
for that and giving her what she wants when she wants it has
been hampering her ability to learn this cause and effect.
I think this is a very normal stage, but I think you have
to help her grow and develop beyond it, and the time is
ripe to do that.
If I were you, I would set up lots and lots of easy,
low-cost scenarios where she can practice making decisions
and seeing what happens. She's going to get upset when
she makes a decision and it turns out not to be the one
she really likes. Sometimes that will be because she's
playing games with you, and sometimes that will be because
she's still a bit limited in her ability to predict her
future reactions to things. That's okay. That's how she
learns, even though the process is frustrating for her at
times. Believe me, if you do not support this learning
now, it often does get *much* worse.
That said, it doesn't mean you have to stick her
with every decision she makes. Be clear with her. While
she's learning, explain to her which decisions are final,
and make those the relatively low cost ones (I don't think
choosing not to hug and kiss Mommy good-bye before work
is particularly high cost, but it's higher cost than some
other things, like wearing the pink shirt or the green
shirt) the ones that she is required to stick with. When
the cost is too high, DO NOT GIVE HER A CHOICE. Don't
ask her if she wants to kiss Mommy good-bye. Tell her
it's time to kiss Mommy good-bye. As she grows, she
will get more and more choices, but offering too many
choices is a killer for kids. You want to keep her on
that edge where she's making the choices that are
developmentally appropriate for her, and even pushing
the edge a little so that she occasionally chooses wrong
when the stakes are not too high so she learns, but
not asking her to make choices that are beyond her
or where the stakes are unacceptably high. Part of
defining "unacceptably high" is figuring out what
meltdowns you're willing to deal with, but you can't
make that all of it because she may need to experience
a few meltdowns before she really starts connecting
up cause and effect.
In general, these sorts of cause and effect
relationships are really developing at an initial
level from about 18 months to 3 years.

Best wishes,
Ericka

  #5  
Old June 28th 05, 11:14 PM
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Richard wrote:

For a while, we've assumed (correctly, I think) that she lacks the
neural connectivity needed to conceptualize causality, so have given
her what she says she wants when she says she wants it.


I disagree. I think kids this age can conceptualize causality just
fine. Does she ask for something to eat in order to get food? Does she
try to follow your rules? Does she know that if she falls down she will
get hurt? Most likely yes. All that is causality.

I do think there is a point (around age 12 months or so) when the kids
don't really seem clear yet on the meaning of yes or no. At this point
I do think you should give in for important things if they have given
an asnwer they don't intend. But once they have the language down well,
I think it is important to teach that you should say what you mean.

As this
behavior is becoming more frequent, we're leaning toward just letting
her suffer the consequences of her initial rejection and endure her
resulting meltdowns, even if we're in a position to give her what she
wants.


Yes, this is what you need to do. It might take a while for her to
realize you are serious. But on really important things (like hugging
mommy goodbye) once or twice should be enough for her to get it.

I do give in certain circumstances. One thing is clothing selection.
Suppose you are leaving for a walk and the child says "no jacket". If I
know it is cold, I bring the jacket and provide it when they ask. This
is different because you are asking the child to project into the
future (will you be cold in 10 minutes) and I don't think they can
really answer that accurately.


I have a few specific questions.

- Is this common behavior at this age?


Yup.


- If so, when do kids outgrow it?


Don't remember exactly, but I think it varies with the kind of thing.
We had problems with asking to bring a certain toy to school after
leaving the house. This is after my stating "we are leaving now. If you
want to bring a toy, get it now." That lasted from ages 3 to 4 or so.

I do know a number of adults who will say No to something when they
mean Yes and then stew about not being begged. So some people never
outgrow it. I value "say what you mean" and am trying to instill this
by taking my children's answers at face value (mostly, see also below).


- Has anyone ever dealt with this before? (successfully or not,
stories of failures are most welcome)


My daughter's preschool has a hot lunch on Fridays that you pay extra
for. My daughter said one week that she didn't want it. It was pizza,
which she loves. So I didn't pay that week, and sent her lunch box. She
did not get to have any pizza and cried at lunch time. That was a one
time lesson. Now she tells me accurately whether she wants the lunch
each Friday. That was at age 4.

Crying for toys after bed time, or after we leave for school I haven't
been as consistent. Sometimes my kids will ask for something after the
"deadline" (walking out the door in morning or after being tucked into
bed) and it is something that I think they really need for comfort at
school or to get to sleep. So I get the item, and then I "pay" for it
for the next few days. I get asked for items which I don't think there
is a strong yearning for, and then get tantrums when I say no.


- Given a recent longitudinal study that showed that teenagers lack
much of the circuitry necessary to reason logically, does it not
make sense to dismiss this as part of being two and just
accommodate DD, or is she likely to outgrow this faster if we hold
her to her word, no matter how easily remedied and no matter how
painful?


Ease of remedy, I don't take into account. Amount of pain, I do. I the
child is attached to a blanket and says she doesn't need it one day,
and then changes her mind, I would be more likely to give in, even if I
have to drive several blocks back home.

If child say, no I don't want any ice cream, and then asks for some 2
minutes later, I would make them stick with the No even though I am
still holding the scooper.

  #6  
Old June 29th 05, 02:49 AM
Jayne Ashworth
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I volunteer for an hour a week with the child care center
at my church in their pre-k class. The children range
from 4 - 5 years old and they still exhibit this behavior
at times. My own DD is 27 years old, and she seems to have
outgrown it. :-) Jayne

  #7  
Old June 29th 05, 02:50 AM
Rosalie B.
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Richard wrote:


I wrote:
My 32mo daughter often says "no" when she means "yes". As a simple
example, my wife leaves in the morning before I do (I take DD to
daycare). As my wife is leaving, she'll ask DD for good-bye hugs and
kisses. DD sometimes says, no, she doesn't want any. Maybe she's


Scott replied:
Here is the problem. You are giving her a choice.

If you don't want the answer to be no -- and then have
a meltdown -- don't ask the question. It's really
that simple.


I would like my daughter to learn to handle choice. She can not do
that without being offered choices and living with the consequences.

Some people are naturally decisive, and are that way all their lives,
and some people are prevaricators and procrastinators, and are never
happy with a choice that they are forced to make. This is so even
between children of the same parents who are brought up the same way.
My sister and I are examples.

And then, you might remember that she has the rest of her life to
learn to make good choices. At this age the choice should NOT be a
yes or no choice. Because at this age they do often say no when they
mean yes, and they don't really want to be taken at their literal
word.

As for things like the gymnastics, I found it worked better to assume
that the child would want to do whatever it was rather than asking.
This is unnecessary choice making.

I would agree that your wife ought to just kiss her and go. It sounds
cruel to me to ask and then leave without kissing her if you know that
she's really going to want the kiss. I would wonder if there wasn't
something else going on here, that a mom would actually ask a child if
she wanted a kiss goodbye rather than just giving her one.

The goal should be to avoid meltdowns, and NOT to enforce sticking to
a decision - especially at this age.



grandma Rosalie

  #8  
Old June 29th 05, 09:58 AM
Marie
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On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 15:53:53 EDT, Richard wrote:
- Is this common behavior at this age?


Yes, very! All three of my girls did this around the same age, and 32
month old Bethany is doing it now. Lots-o-fun!

- If so, when do kids outgrow it?


It has been a few years between my youngest and middle child so I
don't remember. It wasn't too insanely long, though. Maybe a few
weeks-months. It's so aggravating that if it lasted too long I'd
remember it better from the older two girls ;o)

- Has anyone ever dealt with this before? (successfully or not,
stories of failures are most welcome)
- Given a recent longitudinal study that showed that teenagers lack
much of the circuitry necessary to reason logically, does it not
make sense to dismiss this as part of being two and just
accommodate DD, or is she likely to outgrow this faster if we hold
her to her word, no matter how easily remedied and no matter how
painful?


Since it's just a normal phase, I give in most of the time unless I am
in a rush. If I don't feel like going on and on with it I swoop her up
and try to distract her, or tell her "Ok this is it, no more" and she
does understand. I never have figured out exactly what the process
teaches the child, unless it's some kind of control issue.
Our daughters are close in age, when is Micaela's birthday? Bethany's
is 12 Oct.
Marie

  #9  
Old June 29th 05, 02:53 PM
Nikki
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Richard wrote:
My 32mo daughter often says "no" when she means "yes".


- Is this common behavior at this age?


I think it is a common phase. I think she probably understands the
question but is struggling with the power of making choices, and possibly
projecting into the future.

- If so, when do kids outgrow it?


Hunter moved through it quite quickly in a couple months. He was very easy
going. Luke was a very intense toddler and it took him much longer at
nearly a year. He tantrumed over not getting the choice he didn't choose.
It wasn't that he was unhappy with what he had, but he wanted the other
choice *too*. He tantrumed over not having control over the lost choice when
it was non-tangible. He struggled with finding a balance between control
over himself and others, which of course meant we *all* struggled ;-) I
think the level of intensity that he felt made him feel a bit insecure,
which made him even more crazy.

- Has anyone ever dealt with this before? (successfully or not,
stories of failures are most welcome)


I found that with Luke it helped immensely to offer much fewer choices
because then he didn't have to un-choose something. We had the goodbye
troubles too. I quit asking about the hugs and kisses. By saying yes to
the hugs and kisses he was giving permission for the goodbye - which he
didn't want to do. Our life was a nightmare. If it was time to eat the
choice between toast and cereal would lead to a meltdown and a 60 minute
breakfast ordeal. It was 'Lets eat' and he was expected to pick something.
I had to make sure he had things he could get at himself (and then I'd help
him fix it) but if he could just get it out, then he wasn't un-choosing
anything. He was very smart. I could never use choices to 'trick' him.
Two avenues to the same end was not a choice in his mind because he was
focused on the end, not the ability to choose how to get there :-)

In the gymnastics scenario I'd try not to offer it as a choice. I used the
phrase 'now or never' to try to get him to understand situations like these.
We had many of the same meltdowns that you experienced even then. He's 4
now and thankfully completely out of that phase - and has been for quite a
while. :-D

Strict routine does not come naturally to me or with my work schedule but
the stricter and more predictable the routine, the better for Luke during
this phase.

- Given a recent longitudinal study that showed that teenagers lack
much of the circuitry necessary to reason logically, does it not
make sense to dismiss this as part of being two and just
accommodate DD, or is she likely to outgrow this faster if we hold
her to her word, no matter how easily remedied and no matter how
painful?


I finally found a fine line between accommodating him, and holding out. If
he did not react like a maniac (usually when no choice was offered) then if
he changed his mind and it was reasonable to accommodate then I did so. It
took a bit of experimenting to get there but I think it helped because he
realized he did have a bit of control and didn't need to exert it at every
single opportunity. Regular people sometimes change their mind. I would
remind him that we can change our mind *once* otherwise he'd go back and
forth a zillion times :-)

Fwiw, I have tried discussing this with her and she sometimes seems to
understand. Yesterday, she even repeated back to me, "Micaela want
it, Micaela say 'yes'." As recently as this morning, though, she had
yet to take that advice.


Mine had the ability to understand choice making and to respond accordingly
but they did not have the ability to discuss it if that makes sense. Even
if she did understand, it is easy to get caught up in the moment. Toddlers
always live in the moment :-)

--
Nikki


  #10  
Old June 29th 05, 02:54 PM
LisaBell
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On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 15:53:53 EDT, Richard wrote:

My 32mo daughter often says "no" when she means "yes". As a simple
example, my wife leaves in the morning before I do (I take DD to
daycare). As my wife is leaving, she'll ask DD for good-bye hugs and
kisses. DD sometimes says, no, she doesn't want any. Maybe she's
playing and doesn't want to be distracted, sometimes she's just
exercising her toddler's prerogative to say no. She doesn't want any
hugs, of course, until the minute my wife is gone. Then, after it's
too late, she starts her pleading, "Mommy huggie! Mommy huggie!"
"It's too late, Sweetheart. Mommy's at work now." Meltdown, tears
and all.

For a while, we've assumed (correctly, I think) that she lacks the
neural connectivity needed to conceptualize causality, so have given
her what she says she wants when she says she wants it. As this
behavior is becoming more frequent, we're leaning toward just letting
her suffer the consequences of her initial rejection and endure her
resulting meltdowns, even if we're in a position to give her what she
wants.

I have a few specific questions.

- Is this common behavior at this age?

- If so, when do kids outgrow it?

- Has anyone ever dealt with this before? (successfully or not,
stories of failures are most welcome)

- Given a recent longitudinal study that showed that teenagers lack
much of the circuitry necessary to reason logically, does it not
make sense to dismiss this as part of being two and just
accommodate DD, or is she likely to outgrow this faster if we hold
her to her word, no matter how easily remedied and no matter how
painful?

Fwiw, I have tried discussing this with her and she sometimes seems to
understand. Yesterday, she even repeated back to me, "Micaela want
it, Micaela say 'yes'." As recently as this morning, though, she had
yet to take that advice.


Boy does this sound familiar! And I don't want to sound discouraging
or anything, but my youngest (now 5.5) has done this from when she was
little and still does. We will tell her daddy is going to the store
and does she want to go along. "No". Well, "are you sure?"... "no, I
don't want to go!". Okay fine... daddy leaves, and two minutes later
she starts to cry and carry on that she wanted to go too.

There seems to be no rhyme or reason to it, and the few times I have
tried to discuss it with her she says that she changed her mind, or
that she didn't know what to decide.

We have reached the point where we just make the options very clear
and then calmly let her live with the consequences. When she was
younger I was more inclined to make certain decisions for her, like if
I knew she was likely to regret not going to the store with daddy, I
would sometimes just tell her to go instead of asking her. Neither
attitude seems to have made much difference, although as she has grown
and matured she has improved, so it doesn't happen as often as it used
to.

I've no idea what causes this in some kids (my eldest is nothing like
this). Perhaps it's in the name - ours is a Michaela too!! :-)


--Lisa bell
Mom to Gabriella (6.5) and Michaela (5)

 




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