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#1
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advice needed: toddler indecision
My 32mo daughter often says "no" when she means "yes". As a simple
example, my wife leaves in the morning before I do (I take DD to daycare). As my wife is leaving, she'll ask DD for good-bye hugs and kisses. DD sometimes says, no, she doesn't want any. Maybe she's playing and doesn't want to be distracted, sometimes she's just exercising her toddler's prerogative to say no. She doesn't want any hugs, of course, until the minute my wife is gone. Then, after it's too late, she starts her pleading, "Mommy huggie! Mommy huggie!" "It's too late, Sweetheart. Mommy's at work now." Meltdown, tears and all. For a while, we've assumed (correctly, I think) that she lacks the neural connectivity needed to conceptualize causality, so have given her what she says she wants when she says she wants it. As this behavior is becoming more frequent, we're leaning toward just letting her suffer the consequences of her initial rejection and endure her resulting meltdowns, even if we're in a position to give her what she wants. I have a few specific questions. - Is this common behavior at this age? - If so, when do kids outgrow it? - Has anyone ever dealt with this before? (successfully or not, stories of failures are most welcome) - Given a recent longitudinal study that showed that teenagers lack much of the circuitry necessary to reason logically, does it not make sense to dismiss this as part of being two and just accommodate DD, or is she likely to outgrow this faster if we hold her to her word, no matter how easily remedied and no matter how painful? Fwiw, I have tried discussing this with her and she sometimes seems to understand. Yesterday, she even repeated back to me, "Micaela want it, Micaela say 'yes'." As recently as this morning, though, she had yet to take that advice. Richard dad to 32 mo Micaela |
#2
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"Richard" wrote in message ... For a while, we've assumed (correctly, I think) that she lacks the neural connectivity needed to conceptualize causality, so have given her what she says she wants when she says she wants it. As this behavior is becoming more frequent, we're leaning toward just letting her suffer the consequences of her initial rejection and endure her resulting meltdowns, even if we're in a position to give her what she wants. I have a few specific questions. - Is this common behavior at this age? My daughter is 32 months old as well, and she's just beginning to grow out of this stage. I've considered it perfectly normal behaviour for her. - If so, when do kids outgrow it? I've heard that this is a terrible two thing, and the kids outgrow it relatively quickly. Sarah went through this phase in about 4 months. - Has anyone ever dealt with this before? (successfully or not, stories of failures are most welcome) Every day. I give Sarah binary choices and she lives with her choice. It's not a point of great drama, actually. I'll say, Sarah, would you like to watch Wiggles or Sesame Street. She'll say Wiggles, then once the DVD is on, she'll say NO! Sesame!. I generally reply with "You chose Wiggles, so that is what we're watching." She fusses a bit, end of story. If she winds herself up into a major meltdown, i'll offer her the choice of taking a time out until she can control herself, to which she generally replies "No, I all done." - Given a recent longitudinal study that showed that teenagers lack much of the circuitry necessary to reason logically, does it not make sense to dismiss this as part of being two and just accommodate DD, or is she likely to outgrow this faster if we hold her to her word, no matter how easily remedied and no matter how painful? The things that trigger this behaviour in Sarah are pretty minor. My opinion is that what is going on is not dissatisfaction about the choice she made, but getting used to the idea of *making* choices. She's learning how to make choices. Anyway, that is a long way of saying I offer her choices, she makes them, and lives with her choice. I don't allow her to change her mind, because I really don't believe that the problem is related to the item she chose. It's learning to choose, if you get my meaning. HTH Donna |
#3
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Richard wrote:
My 32mo daughter often says "no" when she means "yes". As a simple example, my wife leaves in the morning before I do (I take DD to daycare). As my wife is leaving, she'll ask DD for good-bye hugs and kisses. DD sometimes says, no, she doesn't want any. Maybe she's Here is the problem. You are giving her a choice. If you don't want the answer to be no -- and then have a meltdown -- don't ask the question. It's really that simple. I suggest you change the routine so that your wife just hugs and kisses your daughter, but doesn't do any asking. Of course, at some point, you'll have a daughter not wanting a hug/kiss. At which point you have this interaction: Daughter: I don't want a hug/kiss. Mother: You don't have to. I'm doing this for me. hug, kiss. Bye. FWIW, I think your daughter understands perfectly well what she's doing. Look at all the attention she's getting when she does it. She knows exactly which of your buttons to push. It is very common behavior you are seeing and you are doing everything in your power to promote it. Scott DD 12 and DS 9 |
#4
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Richard wrote:
My 32mo daughter often says "no" when she means "yes". As a simple example, my wife leaves in the morning before I do (I take DD to daycare). As my wife is leaving, she'll ask DD for good-bye hugs and kisses. DD sometimes says, no, she doesn't want any. Maybe she's playing and doesn't want to be distracted, sometimes she's just exercising her toddler's prerogative to say no. She doesn't want any hugs, of course, until the minute my wife is gone. Then, after it's too late, she starts her pleading, "Mommy huggie! Mommy huggie!" "It's too late, Sweetheart. Mommy's at work now." Meltdown, tears and all. For a while, we've assumed (correctly, I think) that she lacks the neural connectivity needed to conceptualize causality, so have given her what she says she wants when she says she wants it. As this behavior is becoming more frequent, we're leaning toward just letting her suffer the consequences of her initial rejection and endure her resulting meltdowns, even if we're in a position to give her what she wants. I have a few specific questions. - Is this common behavior at this age? - If so, when do kids outgrow it? - Has anyone ever dealt with this before? (successfully or not, stories of failures are most welcome) - Given a recent longitudinal study that showed that teenagers lack much of the circuitry necessary to reason logically, does it not make sense to dismiss this as part of being two and just accommodate DD, or is she likely to outgrow this faster if we hold her to her word, no matter how easily remedied and no matter how painful? Fwiw, I have tried discussing this with her and she sometimes seems to understand. Yesterday, she even repeated back to me, "Micaela want it, Micaela say 'yes'." As recently as this morning, though, she had yet to take that advice. Honestly, I think she's likely well into the age range where she should be having a decent grasp on cause and effect, and it's possible that your believing she wasn't quite ready for that and giving her what she wants when she wants it has been hampering her ability to learn this cause and effect. I think this is a very normal stage, but I think you have to help her grow and develop beyond it, and the time is ripe to do that. If I were you, I would set up lots and lots of easy, low-cost scenarios where she can practice making decisions and seeing what happens. She's going to get upset when she makes a decision and it turns out not to be the one she really likes. Sometimes that will be because she's playing games with you, and sometimes that will be because she's still a bit limited in her ability to predict her future reactions to things. That's okay. That's how she learns, even though the process is frustrating for her at times. Believe me, if you do not support this learning now, it often does get *much* worse. That said, it doesn't mean you have to stick her with every decision she makes. Be clear with her. While she's learning, explain to her which decisions are final, and make those the relatively low cost ones (I don't think choosing not to hug and kiss Mommy good-bye before work is particularly high cost, but it's higher cost than some other things, like wearing the pink shirt or the green shirt) the ones that she is required to stick with. When the cost is too high, DO NOT GIVE HER A CHOICE. Don't ask her if she wants to kiss Mommy good-bye. Tell her it's time to kiss Mommy good-bye. As she grows, she will get more and more choices, but offering too many choices is a killer for kids. You want to keep her on that edge where she's making the choices that are developmentally appropriate for her, and even pushing the edge a little so that she occasionally chooses wrong when the stakes are not too high so she learns, but not asking her to make choices that are beyond her or where the stakes are unacceptably high. Part of defining "unacceptably high" is figuring out what meltdowns you're willing to deal with, but you can't make that all of it because she may need to experience a few meltdowns before she really starts connecting up cause and effect. In general, these sorts of cause and effect relationships are really developing at an initial level from about 18 months to 3 years. Best wishes, Ericka |
#5
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Richard wrote: For a while, we've assumed (correctly, I think) that she lacks the neural connectivity needed to conceptualize causality, so have given her what she says she wants when she says she wants it. I disagree. I think kids this age can conceptualize causality just fine. Does she ask for something to eat in order to get food? Does she try to follow your rules? Does she know that if she falls down she will get hurt? Most likely yes. All that is causality. I do think there is a point (around age 12 months or so) when the kids don't really seem clear yet on the meaning of yes or no. At this point I do think you should give in for important things if they have given an asnwer they don't intend. But once they have the language down well, I think it is important to teach that you should say what you mean. As this behavior is becoming more frequent, we're leaning toward just letting her suffer the consequences of her initial rejection and endure her resulting meltdowns, even if we're in a position to give her what she wants. Yes, this is what you need to do. It might take a while for her to realize you are serious. But on really important things (like hugging mommy goodbye) once or twice should be enough for her to get it. I do give in certain circumstances. One thing is clothing selection. Suppose you are leaving for a walk and the child says "no jacket". If I know it is cold, I bring the jacket and provide it when they ask. This is different because you are asking the child to project into the future (will you be cold in 10 minutes) and I don't think they can really answer that accurately. I have a few specific questions. - Is this common behavior at this age? Yup. - If so, when do kids outgrow it? Don't remember exactly, but I think it varies with the kind of thing. We had problems with asking to bring a certain toy to school after leaving the house. This is after my stating "we are leaving now. If you want to bring a toy, get it now." That lasted from ages 3 to 4 or so. I do know a number of adults who will say No to something when they mean Yes and then stew about not being begged. So some people never outgrow it. I value "say what you mean" and am trying to instill this by taking my children's answers at face value (mostly, see also below). - Has anyone ever dealt with this before? (successfully or not, stories of failures are most welcome) My daughter's preschool has a hot lunch on Fridays that you pay extra for. My daughter said one week that she didn't want it. It was pizza, which she loves. So I didn't pay that week, and sent her lunch box. She did not get to have any pizza and cried at lunch time. That was a one time lesson. Now she tells me accurately whether she wants the lunch each Friday. That was at age 4. Crying for toys after bed time, or after we leave for school I haven't been as consistent. Sometimes my kids will ask for something after the "deadline" (walking out the door in morning or after being tucked into bed) and it is something that I think they really need for comfort at school or to get to sleep. So I get the item, and then I "pay" for it for the next few days. I get asked for items which I don't think there is a strong yearning for, and then get tantrums when I say no. - Given a recent longitudinal study that showed that teenagers lack much of the circuitry necessary to reason logically, does it not make sense to dismiss this as part of being two and just accommodate DD, or is she likely to outgrow this faster if we hold her to her word, no matter how easily remedied and no matter how painful? Ease of remedy, I don't take into account. Amount of pain, I do. I the child is attached to a blanket and says she doesn't need it one day, and then changes her mind, I would be more likely to give in, even if I have to drive several blocks back home. If child say, no I don't want any ice cream, and then asks for some 2 minutes later, I would make them stick with the No even though I am still holding the scooper. |
#6
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I volunteer for an hour a week with the child care center
at my church in their pre-k class. The children range from 4 - 5 years old and they still exhibit this behavior at times. My own DD is 27 years old, and she seems to have outgrown it. :-) Jayne |
#7
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Richard wrote:
I wrote: My 32mo daughter often says "no" when she means "yes". As a simple example, my wife leaves in the morning before I do (I take DD to daycare). As my wife is leaving, she'll ask DD for good-bye hugs and kisses. DD sometimes says, no, she doesn't want any. Maybe she's Scott replied: Here is the problem. You are giving her a choice. If you don't want the answer to be no -- and then have a meltdown -- don't ask the question. It's really that simple. I would like my daughter to learn to handle choice. She can not do that without being offered choices and living with the consequences. Some people are naturally decisive, and are that way all their lives, and some people are prevaricators and procrastinators, and are never happy with a choice that they are forced to make. This is so even between children of the same parents who are brought up the same way. My sister and I are examples. And then, you might remember that she has the rest of her life to learn to make good choices. At this age the choice should NOT be a yes or no choice. Because at this age they do often say no when they mean yes, and they don't really want to be taken at their literal word. As for things like the gymnastics, I found it worked better to assume that the child would want to do whatever it was rather than asking. This is unnecessary choice making. I would agree that your wife ought to just kiss her and go. It sounds cruel to me to ask and then leave without kissing her if you know that she's really going to want the kiss. I would wonder if there wasn't something else going on here, that a mom would actually ask a child if she wanted a kiss goodbye rather than just giving her one. The goal should be to avoid meltdowns, and NOT to enforce sticking to a decision - especially at this age. grandma Rosalie |
#8
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On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 15:53:53 EDT, Richard wrote:
- Is this common behavior at this age? Yes, very! All three of my girls did this around the same age, and 32 month old Bethany is doing it now. Lots-o-fun! - If so, when do kids outgrow it? It has been a few years between my youngest and middle child so I don't remember. It wasn't too insanely long, though. Maybe a few weeks-months. It's so aggravating that if it lasted too long I'd remember it better from the older two girls ;o) - Has anyone ever dealt with this before? (successfully or not, stories of failures are most welcome) - Given a recent longitudinal study that showed that teenagers lack much of the circuitry necessary to reason logically, does it not make sense to dismiss this as part of being two and just accommodate DD, or is she likely to outgrow this faster if we hold her to her word, no matter how easily remedied and no matter how painful? Since it's just a normal phase, I give in most of the time unless I am in a rush. If I don't feel like going on and on with it I swoop her up and try to distract her, or tell her "Ok this is it, no more" and she does understand. I never have figured out exactly what the process teaches the child, unless it's some kind of control issue. Our daughters are close in age, when is Micaela's birthday? Bethany's is 12 Oct. Marie |
#9
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Richard wrote:
My 32mo daughter often says "no" when she means "yes". - Is this common behavior at this age? I think it is a common phase. I think she probably understands the question but is struggling with the power of making choices, and possibly projecting into the future. - If so, when do kids outgrow it? Hunter moved through it quite quickly in a couple months. He was very easy going. Luke was a very intense toddler and it took him much longer at nearly a year. He tantrumed over not getting the choice he didn't choose. It wasn't that he was unhappy with what he had, but he wanted the other choice *too*. He tantrumed over not having control over the lost choice when it was non-tangible. He struggled with finding a balance between control over himself and others, which of course meant we *all* struggled ;-) I think the level of intensity that he felt made him feel a bit insecure, which made him even more crazy. - Has anyone ever dealt with this before? (successfully or not, stories of failures are most welcome) I found that with Luke it helped immensely to offer much fewer choices because then he didn't have to un-choose something. We had the goodbye troubles too. I quit asking about the hugs and kisses. By saying yes to the hugs and kisses he was giving permission for the goodbye - which he didn't want to do. Our life was a nightmare. If it was time to eat the choice between toast and cereal would lead to a meltdown and a 60 minute breakfast ordeal. It was 'Lets eat' and he was expected to pick something. I had to make sure he had things he could get at himself (and then I'd help him fix it) but if he could just get it out, then he wasn't un-choosing anything. He was very smart. I could never use choices to 'trick' him. Two avenues to the same end was not a choice in his mind because he was focused on the end, not the ability to choose how to get there :-) In the gymnastics scenario I'd try not to offer it as a choice. I used the phrase 'now or never' to try to get him to understand situations like these. We had many of the same meltdowns that you experienced even then. He's 4 now and thankfully completely out of that phase - and has been for quite a while. :-D Strict routine does not come naturally to me or with my work schedule but the stricter and more predictable the routine, the better for Luke during this phase. - Given a recent longitudinal study that showed that teenagers lack much of the circuitry necessary to reason logically, does it not make sense to dismiss this as part of being two and just accommodate DD, or is she likely to outgrow this faster if we hold her to her word, no matter how easily remedied and no matter how painful? I finally found a fine line between accommodating him, and holding out. If he did not react like a maniac (usually when no choice was offered) then if he changed his mind and it was reasonable to accommodate then I did so. It took a bit of experimenting to get there but I think it helped because he realized he did have a bit of control and didn't need to exert it at every single opportunity. Regular people sometimes change their mind. I would remind him that we can change our mind *once* otherwise he'd go back and forth a zillion times :-) Fwiw, I have tried discussing this with her and she sometimes seems to understand. Yesterday, she even repeated back to me, "Micaela want it, Micaela say 'yes'." As recently as this morning, though, she had yet to take that advice. Mine had the ability to understand choice making and to respond accordingly but they did not have the ability to discuss it if that makes sense. Even if she did understand, it is easy to get caught up in the moment. Toddlers always live in the moment :-) -- Nikki |
#10
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On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 15:53:53 EDT, Richard wrote:
My 32mo daughter often says "no" when she means "yes". As a simple example, my wife leaves in the morning before I do (I take DD to daycare). As my wife is leaving, she'll ask DD for good-bye hugs and kisses. DD sometimes says, no, she doesn't want any. Maybe she's playing and doesn't want to be distracted, sometimes she's just exercising her toddler's prerogative to say no. She doesn't want any hugs, of course, until the minute my wife is gone. Then, after it's too late, she starts her pleading, "Mommy huggie! Mommy huggie!" "It's too late, Sweetheart. Mommy's at work now." Meltdown, tears and all. For a while, we've assumed (correctly, I think) that she lacks the neural connectivity needed to conceptualize causality, so have given her what she says she wants when she says she wants it. As this behavior is becoming more frequent, we're leaning toward just letting her suffer the consequences of her initial rejection and endure her resulting meltdowns, even if we're in a position to give her what she wants. I have a few specific questions. - Is this common behavior at this age? - If so, when do kids outgrow it? - Has anyone ever dealt with this before? (successfully or not, stories of failures are most welcome) - Given a recent longitudinal study that showed that teenagers lack much of the circuitry necessary to reason logically, does it not make sense to dismiss this as part of being two and just accommodate DD, or is she likely to outgrow this faster if we hold her to her word, no matter how easily remedied and no matter how painful? Fwiw, I have tried discussing this with her and she sometimes seems to understand. Yesterday, she even repeated back to me, "Micaela want it, Micaela say 'yes'." As recently as this morning, though, she had yet to take that advice. Boy does this sound familiar! And I don't want to sound discouraging or anything, but my youngest (now 5.5) has done this from when she was little and still does. We will tell her daddy is going to the store and does she want to go along. "No". Well, "are you sure?"... "no, I don't want to go!". Okay fine... daddy leaves, and two minutes later she starts to cry and carry on that she wanted to go too. There seems to be no rhyme or reason to it, and the few times I have tried to discuss it with her she says that she changed her mind, or that she didn't know what to decide. We have reached the point where we just make the options very clear and then calmly let her live with the consequences. When she was younger I was more inclined to make certain decisions for her, like if I knew she was likely to regret not going to the store with daddy, I would sometimes just tell her to go instead of asking her. Neither attitude seems to have made much difference, although as she has grown and matured she has improved, so it doesn't happen as often as it used to. I've no idea what causes this in some kids (my eldest is nothing like this). Perhaps it's in the name - ours is a Michaela too!! :-) --Lisa bell Mom to Gabriella (6.5) and Michaela (5) |
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