advice needed: toddler indecision

In article ,
Richard wrote:

My 32mo daughter often says "no" when she means "yes". As a simple
example, my wife leaves in the morning before I do (I take DD to
daycare). As my wife is leaving, she'll ask DD for good-bye hugs and
kisses. DD sometimes says, no, she doesn't want any. Maybe she's
playing and doesn't want to be distracted, sometimes she's just
exercising her toddler's prerogative to say no. She doesn't want any
hugs, of course, until the minute my wife is gone. Then, after it's
too late, she starts her pleading, "Mommy huggie! Mommy huggie!"
"It's too late, Sweetheart. Mommy's at work now." Meltdown, tears
and all.

This isn't uncommon.

However, if THIS scenario is a common one, I'd stop ASKING, and just
tell her it's time for a goodbye hug. If she says "no", mommie can just
kiss the top of her head, or hug her from behind.
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

Richard wrote:
My 32mo daughter often says "no" when she means "yes". As a simple
example, my wife leaves in the morning before I do (I take DD to
daycare). As my wife is leaving, she'll ask DD for good-bye hugs and
kisses. DD sometimes says, no, she doesn't want any. Maybe she's
playing and doesn't want to be distracted, sometimes she's just
exercising her toddler's prerogative to say no. She doesn't want any
hugs, of course, until the minute my wife is gone. Then, after it's
too late, she starts her pleading, "Mommy huggie! Mommy huggie!"
"It's too late, Sweetheart. Mommy's at work now." Meltdown, tears
and all.

For a while, we've assumed (correctly, I think) that she lacks the
neural connectivity needed to conceptualize causality, so have given
her what she says she wants when she says she wants it. As this
behavior is becoming more frequent, we're leaning toward just letting
her suffer the consequences of her initial rejection and endure her
resulting meltdowns, even if we're in a position to give her what she
wants.

My son, who is almost exactly the same age, does this all the time.
You also might want to check out the sequence in the middle of Volumn
27 of The Story About The Toddler at www.ironycentral.com about
Cordelia being offered food. This made me and my husband crack up
because it was so much like our child.

We just sort of deal with it as it comes. If we offer a cracker and he
says no, then says "I want a cracker!" two seconds later, okay, you
changed your mind, here's a cracker (and he's actually starting to say,
"I changed my mind, I want a cracker!"). If, however, it was the
*last* cracker and in the meantime Daddy has eaten it, oh well. It's
just the truth in the world that sometimes you can say no and then
change your mind with no consequences, and sometimes when you say no
you're stuck with the choice. I realize that it may be tricky for the
toddler mind to tell the difference between these two situations, and
we do try to warn him when we can that a given choice is
non-retractable, but to some extent we figure this is just life. Make
your choice, and sometimes you can take it back, sometimes you can't,
so it behooves you to make the right one to begin with.

I think part of it is just him wanting to initially say no to anything
that wasn't his idea, at least in certain moods. I've just been
assuming that as he gets older he'll do this less.

Beth

In article ,
Richard wrote:

I wrote:
My 32mo daughter often says "no" when she means "yes". As a simple
example, my wife leaves in the morning before I do (I take DD to
daycare). As my wife is leaving, she'll ask DD for good-bye hugs and
kisses. DD sometimes says, no, she doesn't want any. Maybe she's

Scott replied:
Here is the problem. You are giving her a choice.

If you don't want the answer to be no -- and then have
a meltdown -- don't ask the question. It's really
that simple.

I would like my daughter to learn to handle choice. She can not do
that without being offered choices and living with the consequences.

Richard
dad to Micaela



The issue is how many choices, and which ones. If your daughter is
having lots of problems with meltdowns over the choices she's made, then
you may need to offer fewer -- she isn't learning to make choices, she's
being overwhelmed by them.
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

I don't know if it's common or not, but my 2 year old nephew ALWAYS
says no- even when he means yes- including "do you want a cookie" to
which he responces "NO!" as he reaches for it.
JJ

In ,
Richard wrote:
*Well, yes and no. It's not always that simple. Saturday, for
*example, at the little kids' gym, the instructor was having kids
*do a somersault over a padded cylinder. DD refused. The teacher
*accepted that, as did we, saying she could try next time. The
*padded cylinder went back into storage and DD then decided she
*wanted to try it. It was too late, she had her little meltdown,
*and we removed her from the gym.

OK, our problem is similar, in that my 2 2/3 yr old daughter will say the
day before the outing we know she won't like (for example, to take my son
to see fireworks, which she hates) "I do not want to go on the outing,"
and then the day of the outing will see us leaving and say "I want to come
I want to come I want to come" and I will say "but you don't like
fireworks" and she will insist she wants to go, and I have to either tell
her no, she's staying home, meaning she'll tantrum while we leave and then
calm down and be ok, or I have to let her come, meaning she'll be fine
until the fireworks start and then she'll freak out. It's a tossup, and I
have not figured out what to do on Monday yet.

That being said, in the situation you describe above, I would definitely
say to her "listen, this is your chance to try. If you do not try RIGHT
NOW, you do not get to try at all. Do you want to try? No? Ok, she's
putting it away after everyone goes, so you have to be sure you do not
want a turn. Are you sure? OK. It's going bye-bye now. Wave bye-bye to the
mat..." and hope for the best. if she still melted down, well, wave
bye-bye to the class, too

h.

--
Hillary Israeli, VMD
Lafayette Hill/PA/USA/Earth
"Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it is
too dark to read." --Groucho Marx

In article ,
Richard wrote:

In article , Scott wrote:
Here is the problem. You are giving her a choice.

If you don't want the answer to be no -- and then have
a meltdown -- don't ask the question. It's really
that simple.

Well, yes and no. It's not always that simple. Saturday, for
example, at the little kids' gym, the instructor was having kids
do a somersault over a padded cylinder. DD refused. The teacher
accepted that, as did we, saying she could try next time. The
padded cylinder went back into storage and DD then decided she
wanted to try it. It was too late, she had her little meltdown,
and we removed her from the gym.

Ah yes -- buyer's remorse. Some people seem to have problems with that
all their lives!
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

In article ,
LisaBell wrote:

On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 16:26:59 EDT, Scott
wrote:

If you don't want the answer to be no -- and then have
a meltdown -- don't ask the question. It's really
that simple.

I suggest you change the routine so that your wife just
hugs and kisses your daughter, but doesn't do any asking.
Of course, at some point, you'll have a daughter not
wanting a hug/kiss. At which point you have this
interaction:

Daughter: I don't want a hug/kiss.
Mother: You don't have to. I'm doing this for me.
hug, kiss. Bye.

In principle I'd agree that with younger kids like the OP's limiting
the choices might be best (which didn't cure my indecisive DD, btw),
but I would be wary of applying it to something like kisses and hugs.
I believe it is current wisdom (ie- not merely my own) that physical
affection should never be forced on a child, and that children should
be taught that they have absolute power in deciding to welcome or
decline physical affection.

--Lisa bell
Mom to Gabriella (6.5) and the indecisive Michaela (5)


In general, I agree -- kids should have power over their own bodies, and
the right to refuse physical affection.

In this case, however, it is clear that the little girl DOES want hugs
and kisses from mommie -- she just sometimes says "no", then melts down
after it's too late. In this case, I think that using common sense
would say that the general rule about giving kids autonomy over thier
bodies is not violated by having Mom just announce it's time for a kiss
goodbye, then following through with said hug and kiss. (If the girl
struggles against it -- physically demonstrating that she doesn't want
it -- then I'd re-evaluate.)
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

dragonlady wrote:

In article ,
LisaBell wrote:

On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 16:26:59 EDT, Scott
wrote:

If you don't want the answer to be no -- and then have
a meltdown -- don't ask the question. It's really
that simple.

I suggest you change the routine so that your wife just
hugs and kisses your daughter, but doesn't do any asking.
Of course, at some point, you'll have a daughter not
wanting a hug/kiss. At which point you have this
interaction:

Daughter: I don't want a hug/kiss.
Mother: You don't have to. I'm doing this for me.
hug, kiss. Bye.

In principle I'd agree that with younger kids like the OP's limiting
the choices might be best (which didn't cure my indecisive DD, btw),
but I would be wary of applying it to something like kisses and hugs.
I believe it is current wisdom (ie- not merely my own) that physical
affection should never be forced on a child, and that children should
be taught that they have absolute power in deciding to welcome or
decline physical affection.

--Lisa bell
Mom to Gabriella (6.5) and the indecisive Michaela (5)


I've always thought the absolute power thing was to reduce the chance
for abuse.

In general, I agree -- kids should have power over their own bodies, and
the right to refuse physical affection.

In this case, however, it is clear that the little girl DOES want hugs
and kisses from mommie -- she just sometimes says "no", then melts down
after it's too late. In this case, I think that using common sense
would say that the general rule about giving kids autonomy over thier
bodies is not violated by having Mom just announce it's time for a kiss
goodbye, then following through with said hug and kiss. (If the girl
struggles against it -- physically demonstrating that she doesn't want
it -- then I'd re-evaluate.)

I agree with that - if the child is declining her mom's physical
affection at this age then there are more problems than just not being
able to make decisions. I regarded the 'have power over their bodies'
as being for non-parental type affection demonstrations.

For instance my great aunt Ethel used to always say to me " Come into
my arms you bunch of charms", and would want a kiss. I gave it to
her, but it wasn't one of the things that I particularly enjoyed.

In our case, I think it would have hurt great aunt Ethel very much if
I had refused to hug her, and there wasn't any abuse on her part - I
was just not a very touchee feelee type person. I have to force
myself to remember that my mom wants a hug from me when I visit. It
isn't something I would do if I didn't know that it meant a lot to
her. Ditto with my DIL - I hug her because she expects it.


grandma Rosalie

On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 15:53:53 EDT, Richard wrote:

My 32mo daughter often says "no" when she means "yes". As a simple
example, my wife leaves in the morning before I do (I take DD to
daycare). As my wife is leaving, she'll ask DD for good-bye hugs and
kisses. DD sometimes says, no, she doesn't want any. Maybe she's
playing and doesn't want to be distracted, sometimes she's just
exercising her toddler's prerogative to say no. She doesn't want any
hugs, of course, until the minute my wife is gone. Then, after it's
too late, she starts her pleading, "Mommy huggie! Mommy huggie!"
"It's too late, Sweetheart. Mommy's at work now." Meltdown, tears
and all.

I wonder if there's any chance your daughter thinks she's responding
to the question "Do you want Mummy to leave now?"

Louise

In article ,
"Rosalie B." wrote:

dragonlady wrote:

In article ,
LisaBell wrote:

On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 16:26:59 EDT, Scott
wrote:

If you don't want the answer to be no -- and then have
a meltdown -- don't ask the question. It's really
that simple.

I suggest you change the routine so that your wife just
hugs and kisses your daughter, but doesn't do any asking.
Of course, at some point, you'll have a daughter not
wanting a hug/kiss. At which point you have this
interaction:

Daughter: I don't want a hug/kiss.
Mother: You don't have to. I'm doing this for me.
hug, kiss. Bye.

In principle I'd agree that with younger kids like the OP's limiting
the choices might be best (which didn't cure my indecisive DD, btw),
but I would be wary of applying it to something like kisses and hugs.
I believe it is current wisdom (ie- not merely my own) that physical
affection should never be forced on a child, and that children should
be taught that they have absolute power in deciding to welcome or
decline physical affection.

--Lisa bell
Mom to Gabriella (6.5) and the indecisive Michaela (5)


I've always thought the absolute power thing was to reduce the chance
for abuse.

In general, I agree -- kids should have power over their own bodies, and
the right to refuse physical affection.

In this case, however, it is clear that the little girl DOES want hugs
and kisses from mommie -- she just sometimes says "no", then melts down
after it's too late. In this case, I think that using common sense
would say that the general rule about giving kids autonomy over thier
bodies is not violated by having Mom just announce it's time for a kiss
goodbye, then following through with said hug and kiss. (If the girl
struggles against it -- physically demonstrating that she doesn't want
it -- then I'd re-evaluate.)

I agree with that - if the child is declining her mom's physical
affection at this age then there are more problems than just not being
able to make decisions. I regarded the 'have power over their bodies'
as being for non-parental type affection demonstrations.

Actually, for parental affection, too. If you teach your children that
they have the right to say "no" to ANYONE who wants a hug and kiss --
even Mom and Dad -- the theory is that they'll be in a stronger position
to resist inappropriate touch. Since most molesters are well known to
their victims -- and most start with touch that IS OK -- it can be very
hard for a child to say "no" if their wishes have been not honored, or
for the child to even really believe they have the right to say "no".


For instance my great aunt Ethel used to always say to me " Come into
my arms you bunch of charms", and would want a kiss. I gave it to
her, but it wasn't one of the things that I particularly enjoyed.

Yes, I can remember that as a child, too -- being subject to hugs and
kisses that made me uncomfortable. I've always wondered if it is one of
the things that made me more vulnerable to being molested.

With my own kids, I always respected their desires to NOT be hugged and
kissed by anyone, even Grandma and Grandpa. Yes, it might hurt their
feelings, but I believe that this autonomy of body is critical to REAL
reduction of the possiblity of harm. "Stranger danger" doesn't really
do much to lessen the possibility of harm -- but I believe that teaching
a child that he or she has the right to say "no" to ANY physical contact
with anyone at all does give them more protection.

In our case, I think it would have hurt great aunt Ethel very much if
I had refused to hug her, and there wasn't any abuse on her part - I
was just not a very touchee feelee type person. I have to force
myself to remember that my mom wants a hug from me when I visit. It
isn't something I would do if I didn't know that it meant a lot to
her. Ditto with my DIL - I hug her because she expects it.
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care