Moving States Repeating a Grade

We are moving from NY to PA. The NY cut off date is December 1st but
the PA cut off is September 8th.

My son has just completed 3rd grade in NY his birthday is October 3rd.
My daughter has just completed kindergarten in NY her birthday is
September 27th. They are both among the youngest in their classes. If
we had always lived in PA they would have been the oldest in the grade
below.


They are both academically bright but I really want to use this move as
an opportunity for them to repeat their grades. It's not life or death
but I think they will benefit from being among the oldest rather than
the youngest - particularly my son who is really enthusiastic about the
idea. ( I'd prefer it if they were somewhere in the middle but that's
obviously not possible!)
They are unknown to the kids in the new school so there should be no
stigma. I didn't make a big deal to my kids I simply said that the cut
off dates were different.

Having made up my mind, I thought it would simply be a matter of
explaining this to the school - however they seem to be insisting that
my children go to the higher grade - because this is their "policy" for
interstate transfers!

Any thoughts as to how I can overcome this?

In . com,
iclavdivs wrote:

*
*We are moving from NY to PA. The NY cut off date is December 1st but
*the PA cut off is September 8th.

Just for clarification, in the Colonial school district in Montgomery
County, PA, the cut-off is September 15th. In most of the private schools
in the Philadelphia suburbs, the cut-off is September 1st. I can't
remember the cut-off dates of the surrounding districts, although I used
to know, but my point is simply that it isn't September 8th in all of PA.

*Having made up my mind, I thought it would simply be a matter of
*explaining this to the school - however they seem to be insisting that
*my children go to the higher grade - because this is their "policy" for
*interstate transfers!
*
*Any thoughts as to how I can overcome this?

Good luck. My experience from dealing personally with the Colonial and
Cheltenham districts is that cut-off dates are sacrosanct and district
policies are inviolable!



--
Hillary Israeli, VMD
Lafayette Hill/PA/USA/Earth
"Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it is
too dark to read." --Groucho Marx

iclavdivs wrote:
We are moving from NY to PA. The NY cut off date is December 1st but
the PA cut off is September 8th.

My son has just completed 3rd grade in NY his birthday is October 3rd.
My daughter has just completed kindergarten in NY her birthday is
September 27th. They are both among the youngest in their classes. If
we had always lived in PA they would have been the oldest in the grade
below.


They are both academically bright but I really want to use this move as
an opportunity for them to repeat their grades. It's not life or death

Won't they be really very bored if they are bright and
they are essentially relearning what they've learned
this year -- admittedly not much in kindergarten, but
still...

A bored 3rd grader is a huge time sink for a teacher.
It's not clear from your post what the benefit would
be -- are they physically tiny? emotionally immature? --
but I don't think I'd do this if I were in your
shoes.

If you want to overcome administration inertia, you
have to show a very compelling case. You admit yourself
it's not life or death, but that you "think" they'll
benefit. That doesn't even convince me

Scott, DD (1 of youngest in class, almost 12) and DS (middle of ages in
class, 9)

On 2005-06-30, iclavdivs wrote:
They are both academically bright but I really want to use this move as
an opportunity for them to repeat their grades. It's not life or death
but I think they will benefit from being among the oldest rather than
the youngest ...

Why do you want the kids to repeat a grade if they are academically
bright? Do they have serious social or emotional problems being the
youngest? Are their physical skills way below average? Have they been
bullied in their previous school? Or are you mainly interested in
them becoming sports leaders by being the biggest and oldest in their
classes?

Bright kids tend to get very disconnected from school if they get
bored, so setting them up for boredom seems like a very bad idea to
me. Being the oldest in the class does not automatically confer
status on kids. I'd need to know what your motivation for holding
them back is, before giving you advice on how to achieve it.

Disclaimer: I was always the smallest and youngest kid in my classes
throughout school (I was 16 and weighed 110 lbs when I went to college).
It caused some social problems, but I probably would have had very
similar social problems even if I had been a year or two
older, and I would have been *so* bored.

------------------------------------------------------------
Kevin Karplus http://www.soe.ucsc.edu/~karplus
Professor of Biomolecular Engineering, University of California, Santa Cruz
Undergraduate and Graduate Director, Bioinformatics
(Senior member, IEEE) (Board of Directors, ISCB)
life member (LAB, Adventure Cycling, American Youth Hostels)
Effective Cycling Instructor #218-ck (lapsed)
Affiliations for identification only.

"iclavdivs" wrote:


We are moving from NY to PA. The NY cut off date is December 1st but
the PA cut off is September 8th.

My son has just completed 3rd grade in NY his birthday is October 3rd.
My daughter has just completed kindergarten in NY her birthday is
September 27th. They are both among the youngest in their classes. If
we had always lived in PA they would have been the oldest in the grade
below.

I don't see the advantage to being red-shirted. While they are
younger than most of their classmates, it's not necessarily a problem.
My sister skipped a grade, making her far and away the youngest in her
class, and I don't know that it had an significant effect on her
schooling. I was among the youngest in my class being born just
before the cut-off and it never made any difference to me.

I have three grandsons - one born June 1993, one in May 1994 and one
August 1994. The one born in May 1994 is taller, bigger, stronger,
and more coordinated that either of his cousins, and a lot more
socially mature IMHO. Part of this is that he is a significantly
different personality than the other two of course.

The youngest child (August 1994) was going to be held back in
kindergarten, and then his family moved to England, and he had to go
to first grade. He was a year older than everyone else in his class.
When he moved back to this country, his mom put him back to repeat 3rd
grade. But there was a significant cultural shift between the US and
England which there isn't IMHO between NY and PA.


They are both academically bright but I really want to use this move as
an opportunity for them to repeat their grades. It's not life or death
but I think they will benefit from being among the oldest rather than
the youngest - particularly my son who is really enthusiastic about the
idea. ( I'd prefer it if they were somewhere in the middle but that's
obviously not possible!)

Why does your son want to do this? And why have you told him about
it? If I were to do it I would say that the greatest chance for
actually accomplishing this would be with the kindergarten child.

They are unknown to the kids in the new school so there should be no
stigma. I didn't make a big deal to my kids I simply said that the cut
off dates were different.

Having made up my mind, I thought it would simply be a matter of
explaining this to the school - however they seem to be insisting that
my children go to the higher grade - because this is their "policy" for
interstate transfers!

Any thoughts as to how I can overcome this?

If I had wanted to do this, I would simply have said that I held out
the kindergarten child and not had the records submitted to the new
school, and would not have attempted to hold back the older child.

You will either have to
a) explain that you were mistaken and the school doesn't care about
the original cut off dates since they have already successfully
finished that grade.
b) keep them out of school altogether for a year and home school them
c) get their old school to recommend retention which with the new "no
child left behind" may be difficult for you to get them to do
d) make a really big stink about it making yourself and your kids
REALLY unpopular in the whole school district
e) move to another school district, lie about where they were and lose
their records until after they are well into the school year.
f) put them in a private school that will accept your assessment.

grandma Rosalie

Thanks for all your comments.

Like I say, it's not a huge deal either way - but I just think they
will benefit from not being the youngest. Like any parent I want the
best for my children.

My son was in the bantam league for baseball while all his classmates
were in the minor league (because he wasn't 9 by August). He was very
happy with kids his age and younger. His friend who was in the Minor
league was very overwhelmed by the much bigger 9 and 10 year olds.

Also, I have run into 3 sets of parents who's kids were the youngest
and they saw the disadvantages at middle and high school: Not being
able to drive, boys being physically immature, girls being immature
and out of step with their classmates, graduating at 17. Looking back
they all said they would hold their children back a year.

I have absolutely no concerns about the children getting bored - except
in math for my son - but his last school raced through everything so
quickly I'm sure he will benefit from going over it all again. Example
- he was perfect on his tables up to 12 in May - one week into summer
vacation and he can't remember half of them! He did the water cycle in
1st grade then again in 3rd - couldn't remember a thing about it. Half
the stuff he did in grammar and math I didn't learn until middle school
anyway!

My daughter's New york school agree with me that it would be better for
her and have sent a letter to the PA district - so I hope that will do
the trick for her......

My Son's principal (different school- parochial) says she will back up
my decision but she hopes he will be put in the PA 3rd grade gifted
program.

Thanks again for all your suggestions.

In . com,
iclavdivs wrote:

*Also, I have run into 3 sets of parents who's kids were the youngest
*and they saw the disadvantages at middle and high school: Not being
*able to drive, boys being physically immature, girls being immature
*and out of step with their classmates, graduating at 17. Looking back
*they all said they would hold their children back a year.

OK, I graduated high school at 17 (turned 17 2/19 my senior year so was 16
most of the year). I have to say that not being able to drive was
irrelevant, I didn't care one way or the other about boys, I was socially
out of step but I imagine I would have been anyway, I didn't physically
develop until 11th grade but I didn't care, and graduating at 17 certainly
was no problem. Just, you know, looking at it from my POV. In fact, my son
is turning 5 September 9th, and will be doing preK due to the cut-off
date, and I am sad he will be "older" than I was, because I felt like
being younger worked well for me. So. The grass is always greener...

h.

--
Hillary Israeli, VMD
Lafayette Hill/PA/USA/Earth
"Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it is
too dark to read." --Groucho Marx

In article . com,
iclavdivs wrote:

Also, I have run into 3 sets of parents who's kids were the youngest
and they saw the disadvantages at middle and high school: Not being
able to drive, boys being physically immature, girls being immature
and out of step with their classmates, graduating at 17. Looking back
they all said they would hold their children back a year.

I don't know if these parents were parents of gifted kids, but since
you mention that your old school thinks your son should be in a gifted
classroom, I am going to assume that your own son is gifted. And I'll
point out that these disadvantages of being the youngest are, for many
gifted kids, outweighed by advantages.

If you are interested on research on this topic, you might want to take
look at "A Nation Deceived" -- a research report from the Belin Blank
Center at the University of Iowa that discusses the advantages and
disadvantages of academic acceleration for gifted kids (and concludes
that frequently the advantages outweigh the disadvantages).
(http://nationdeceived.org/)

Although acceleration is not exactly what you're looking at, it is
simliar, since if your kids go on to the next grade they will be
young-for-grade by your new community's standards.

Obviously, I don't know your children, and I don't know what is going
to be best for them. So, please don't think I'm trying to push an
agenda that doesn't fit your kids. I just wanted to put this info
out there for you or anyone else who might be interested.

Good luck with your move and new schools, etc.

--Robyn

..

In article , Robyn Kozierok wrote:
I don't know if these parents were parents of gifted kids, but since
you mention that your old school thinks your son should be in a gifted
classroom, I am going to assume that your own son is gifted. And I'll
point out that these disadvantages of being the youngest are, for many
gifted kids, outweighed by advantages.

Actually, we don't know that the old school think that the kid should
be in a gifted classroom. I believe that what was said is that *if*
the kid is made to repeat a year, it should be in a gifted
classroom---the assumption being that repeating the year would
otherwise bore him to tears.

If one really wanted to make the decision on rational grounds (an
unusual stance for either parents or schools), the child should be
given placement tests to determine what he has already learned and
what he still needs to learn and placed appropriately. Of course,
useful diagnostic placement tests are somewhat expensive to
administer, and the results will almost certainly be mixed, indicating
different placements for different subjects. Few schools have the
infrastructure in place for fitting curriculum to kids that well, so
compromises will have to be made in any case.

Obviously, I don't know your children, and I don't know what is going
to be best for them. So, please don't think I'm trying to push an
agenda that doesn't fit your kids. I just wanted to put this info
out there for you or anyone else who might be interested.

Me too.

------------------------------------------------------------
Kevin Karplus http://www.soe.ucsc.edu/~karplus
Professor of Biomolecular Engineering, University of California, Santa Cruz
Undergraduate and Graduate Director, Bioinformatics
(Senior member, IEEE) (Board of Directors, ISCB)
life member (LAB, Adventure Cycling, American Youth Hostels)
Effective Cycling Instructor #218-ck (lapsed)
Affiliations for identification only.

I have to wholeheartedly agree about the difficulty of dealing with
schools on the issue of gifted children. One has to try to understand
their "real game" since they are very good at packaging unpleasant
messages for parents. I expect that the "real game" varies
significantly between schools but the stance I've seen a few times is a
belief in a "conventional wisdom" that promoting a child ahead is
"bad".

Our daughter Anne (born February 2, so one of the older students in her
class) was pretty bored in JK and subsequent grades until we switched
to a more challenging school. We tried to get her to skip a year in JK
and ultimately were told that her skills with scissors weren't good
enough (yes, really). We took that at face value, but if I had to do
it again, I would have worked with her on scissors for a few days and
asked them to evaluate her again.

After several years at the more challenging (and smaller) school, and
the onset of adolescence, Anne found herself at odds with the
authoritarian bent of the school and wanting a wider variety of friends
available at a bigger school. So, we moved her, but weren't diligent
enough and she wound up one grade lower than was wise. We caught it
after a few months of extreme boredom and she moved to another school,
moving ahead HALF a year. Even though this is going to cause
scheduling problems in the years ahead, she's with a group of people
she gets along with better now. And that's a good thing for a 14 year
old.

Along the way, she went through a battery of tests that we were told
were to determine if she was gifted, but were later told were simply
subject-based assessments (she apparently "couldn't" be gifted, since
she didn't have behavioural problems in class). (We discussed -- but
never tried -- simulating behavioural problems.)

Having gone through this has clearly produced a degree of cynicism on
my part, but it's been reinforced by several incidents. My advice is
to have as a goal that your child be truly engaged in at least one
class a year and if playing games with the school counsellors is
required to place them in such classes, so be it. Of course, it's
mostly luck (you can't really know how a teacher will work out), but
one can shift the odds a bit.

Peter Rowley, Toronto