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I hate homework!



 
 
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  #71  
Old April 5th 08, 02:47 PM posted to misc.kids
Jeff
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Posts: 1,321
Default I hate homework!

Ericka Kammerer wrote:
Jeff wrote:

...

So learning good study habits isn't learning? If assigned properly, it
appears homework can be very helpful to increasing achievement in
elementary students. That means that different kids get different
homework assignments.


And this happens....where? If this is a precondition for
the utility of early elementary homework, then it's a precondition
that is rarely met.


Learning good study habits is a goal of early elementary homework, not a
condition for it.

In addition, in science, homework can be used to help kids correlate
what they learn in science class to what they see in zoos, parks, and
at home in ways that can't be easily done in school.

However, there are very few studies for this in elementary school.


You betcha. Probably because this isn't what early
elementary homework *is* in the vast majority of elementary
schools. Hard to study what isn't there to observe.

One of the interesting things is that homework as a research subject
seems to have stopped be explored in recent years.


Perhaps because the body of research is fairly
consistent in pointing to some conclusions that are roundly
ignored in practice?


Considering that the way elementary education is done has changed a lot
in the last several years because of Bush's No Child Left Behind Act,
and, because a lot of kids were probably assigned more homework to
prepare them for the tests that they have to take, it seems rather bad
that few studies of elementary homework have been done.

My guess is that it has to do with funding of the studies and the time
available to do the studies.

Jeff

Best wishes,
Ericka

  #72  
Old April 5th 08, 03:11 PM posted to misc.kids
Jeff
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Posts: 1,321
Default I hate homework!

Banty wrote:
In article JYKJj.566$Xy2.421@trndny04, Jeff says...
Banty wrote:
In article EuBJj.30$bQ1.19@trndny09, Jeff says...
Banty wrote:
In article , toypup says...
"Ericka Kammerer" wrote in message
. ..
toypup wrote:

For the average second grader, I wouldn't expect 20 sentences a week to
take very long at all. Though your child can form complicated sentences
verbally, writing is a whole different beast, as many can attest. See if
the teacher has an strategies for teaching writing. Perhaps start with a
rigid structure and then then expand from there? Is he allowed, for
instance to write, "A dog is an animal. A bird is an animal. A lizard
is an animal." When that week's words are "dog," "bird," and "lizard"?
She said previously that every sentence must include
a conjunction, so there's a requirement for at least
compound sentences. I wouldn't be surprised if the teacher
also expects that the meaning of the word be obvious from
its use in the sentence (typical requirement for vocabulary
words). Still, even the requirement for the use of a
conjunction ups the ante substantially for a 2nd grader.
True, but I was just trying to think of a way to get him started. I still
don't think 20 sentences is too much for second grade, if he doesn't have
much more than that as homework. That's only five sentences a day for four
days.
Even five sentences took a long time for my writing-adverse boy. But I would
support it more if truly we had had five days for 20 sentences! We had two
days. The words would be assigned on Monday, then Wednesday would be pick up
day, to make Thursday a review assignment and short paragraph day, to make a
quiz on Friday (and also, preserving the Holy Weekend). Monday night was the
write-out x times assignment.

Along with math, and whatever coloring dealies that the art teacher and main
teacher thought appropriate (which he also hated).

Perhaps this child is having difficulty, but I can't imagine that
most of the class is having difficulty. During one class I sat in with DS
this week, they did a 13 sentence paper. If this child was in kindergarten
or maybe even first grade maybe, but second graders should be able to do it.

I don't recall doing essays until third grade. (I clearly recall all the
students who titled theirs "My S.A."). Not until seventh grade did I have a
weekly two page writing assignment. My son had that already in third grade.
Thank your local diety I had a teacher who worked with me to start that over the
weekend.

There really has been an acceleration of expectations regarding writing,
specifically. I'm quite a fan of the importance of writing, but that doesn't
mean this current trend of *more**earlier**more* makes sense. And it had
permeated each and every other subject area in the elementary grades, under the
guise of integrated education. So that even mathematics is demanding of
writing. (On the other hand, mathematics is not integrated into other areas of
study!)
Mathematics is an integral part of science. In addition, it is important
for history, for example, understanding the population changes over time
and graphs.
Well, yes.

Are you reading these posts? Really reading them?

I'm saying (in short): reading is integrated into other areas including
mathematics, but mathematics is NOT integrated into other areas such as readin

You said (in short): mathematics is important

Well, yeah, mathematics is important. Is that all you meant to say? Well, the
sky is blue.


It's an ideological thing that is completely unsupported by any actual data.
Different groups of kids have different needs. Considering the different
life-styles like kids with nannies and highly-educationally focused
parents to kids who have very young parents on drugs who live in
shelters, the ideal homework situation varies greatly.

However, to say that giving homework is not backed by any actual data is
wrong.

This site has many references: http://www.netc.org/focus/strategies/home.php

Did you read this from that page?

Grade level is important when teachers assign homework. Impact of homework on
achievement increases as students move through the grades (Cooper, 1989, a, b).
At the high school level, for every 30 additional minutes of homework completed
daily, a student's GPA can increase up to half a point (Keith, 1992). Elementary
students should be assigned homework to establish good learning and study habits
(Cooper, 1989; Cooper, Lindsay, Nye, & Greathouse, 1998; Gorges & Elliot, 1999).

We're talking about homework in the *early* grades.

So learning good study habits isn't learning? If assigned properly, it
appears homework can be very helpful to increasing achievement in
elementary students.


So, as you pointed out in Ericka's post, it seems the operative word above is
"appears".

That's an *assumption*, a *speculation*. Or even begging the question as in
assuming that it's "proper" being defined as - - that which would lead to
learning good study habits?

I've given examples that the early homework was overwhelming and inappropriate.
With very little real recourse to adjustment, at least in the case of our
experience in New York state.

That means that different kids get different
homework assignments.


That doens't happen. Not without an IEP (which means some kind of proven
diagnosis as to a deficit).


It's called "differential education." One doesn't need an IEP to get an
individual assignment. One needs a teacher who knows how to do
differential education and how to do assessment to figure out what a
student (either general ed or special ed) needs. So kids get assignments
(both in school and homework) based on their needs.

And having an IEP doesn't mean that a kid gets different assignments,
either.

Unfortunately, individual assignments don't happen often enough. IMHO,
every student is a special ed student, because every kid has different
interests and abilities.


In addition, in science, homework can be used to
help kids correlate what they learn in science class to what they see in
zoos, parks, and at home in ways that can't be easily done in school.


That doesn't happen.


Incorrect. A correct statement is "that doesn't happen often enough."

Rather, language arts are emphasized. Much more likely
the zoo trip leads to another essay.


And what would you do?

Our trip to D.C. too see the Air and Space
Museum? An essay. More writing. Nada about science, as far as the school was
concerned. They wanted an essay about it. (Even though it was totally on
vacation time.) "Wonderful - since your son needs more practice in language
arts...."


While there are other ways that kids should be communicating (visual
arts (drawing) and music come to mind), holding the kids accountable for
learning (in this case reporting back some of what they learned is
appropriate). Some of the kids should have been writing about the trip,
other drawing pictures of the planes, some making models, and other
making web pages.

It sounds like the problem is not that the kids are held accountable,
but rather, the way that they are being held accountable is not
appropriate for their needs.

I couldn't even find many books on science subjects, or non-fiction subjects in
general - in my 2nd grade teacher's stack of books my son was to choose from. I
ordered books for him to read on my own dime for school. And even then had slim
pickings.


Science textbooks are notoriously hard to read for kids. Each of the
common science words are really new vocabulary words kids, because they
have different meanings in science. And a problem is that teachers know
the vocabulary so well, they don't even realize that it is so
specialized. In addition, students rarely are at the right reading level
to take full advantage of the textbooks. There are classrooms where
there may be textbooks used for reference, but the science books used
are reading books. The kids learn more because they are learning
according to their interests and they find books at their level.

However, there are very few studies for this in elementary school.

One of the interesting things is that homework as a research subject
seems to have stopped be explored in recent years.

http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=ezziUqsmiqwC&oi=fnd&pg=PA143&dq =cooper+homework&ots=0HcUJd49yk&sig=LsoLgdDqiTZMLI kZMbPXZlatI5I#PPA151,M1


Now why would that be so.


I don't know. I suspect that it has to do with funding. And the fact
that the needs of students are so different within a community like the
Lower East Side in NYC, let along across the US where kids come from so
many cultures like those in Mexico, Africa, Asia, European-Americans,
African-Americans, as well as different abilities to read English and
other languages (like their native language), different religious
backgrounds, different interests and educational achievements of
parents, that there is no one-size fits all approach.

Jeff

Banty

  #73  
Old April 5th 08, 04:56 PM posted to misc.kids
Beliavsky
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Posts: 453
Default I hate homework!

On Apr 5, 9:33*am, Banty wrote:
In article ,
Beliavsky says...



On Apr 4, 10:21=A0pm, Jeff wrote:


Homework doesn't work well for kids who live in shelters or don't have a p=

lace to
do it. Or with kids who are too busy going to soccer, karote and dance.


Maybe the soccer, karate, or dance should go, not the homework.


Lets see - six hours a day of scholastic activities, a few hours after that at
home. *


Note the "or". I did not say that *all* the activities should go but
that the child should not have *so many* that he or she does not have
enough time to do homework. I don't think homework for elementary
school children is necessarily bad, but it should not be more than say
1 hour per night, which can be done between dinner and bed time. Extra-
curriculars can be scheduled before dinner.

We (mostly my wife) may spend 1-2 hours each weekend day with our 4yo
on academic work, most of it of our choosing, but during the week, at
home, we rarely do any academic work other than the "optional"
homework. Although the homework for kindergarteners truly is optional,
try convincing my wife of that .

So, given a choice between soccer/karate/dance and more scholastic
activity, your choice is _______.

Is there anything of value to you *other than* scholastic activity?


You are caricaturing my views.

I want my kids to look back on their childhoods as happy, of course.
It represents about 1/4 of one's life, after all. I spend more time at
home doing silly/fun stuff with my kids than on explicit teaching.

We will introduce our children to musical instruments, and I have
asked earlier in this group about the right age to start. In a thread
Stephanie started on outdoor activities, I mentioned that age 7-8 may
be a good time to introduce a child to a sport. I don't play chess
with my son because I think it will help him academically.

I do consider the extracurricular activities to be less important than
the academic ones (and "less important" does not mean unimportant)
because it much more likely that their careers will depend on their
achievement in reading, writing, math, and science than on, for
example, their athletic abilities. This is true for American kids in
general, and it is probably even more true for Indian American kids.
How many Indian football, basketball, or baseball players are there in
the U.S.? Far fewer than the number of Indian doctors or engineers or
computer programmers. If one of my children does show such great
talent in music or sports that a career in those fields seems
plausible, I would reconsider weighing academics above music or sport
for that child.


Banty

  #74  
Old April 5th 08, 05:17 PM posted to misc.kids
Beliavsky
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Posts: 453
Default I hate homework!

On Apr 4, 1:53*pm, Ericka Kammerer wrote:
Stephanie wrote:
"Ericka Kammerer" wrote in message
Sure. *Obviously, they don't frame it to themselves
that way, and obviously it's not everyone, but there are
at least around here there are plenty of people who spend a
great deal of time and energy pushing, pushing, pushing
their kids to be gifted. *They want them in the GT programs
regardless of their test scores (if their little darlings
aren't scoring high enough, it must be the test at fault).
They're the ones doing flash cards with their infants, sending
their perfectly normal preschoolers to academic prep programs,
piling on the outside work in early elementary to be sure that
their kids are advanced enough that they will at least appear
gifted enough to get into the GT program (because, you know,
average or normal isn't good enough for them).


You know *that* is the core of the problem for me. How will their kids NOT
know that average or normal (aka THEM) is not good enough? The behavior has
its impact on the school system to be sure. I don't know how prevelant it is
and how much impact compared to other factors. It may be geographical,
because you don't see it here so much. *But the impact to the individual
kids bugs me more.


* * * * I'm sure it does vary a lot by region, just as an
emphasis on athletics varies. *I just happen to live in an
area where we have a lot of the overbearing academic sorts
of parents, and they're *extremely* competitive. *Many of
the parents are very high achievers also, but too many of
them don't get that they were often high achievers because
they worked hard and were motivated, not because they were
gifted and their parents pushed them and bullied others into
giving them things.


*Both* hard work and intelligence are necessary for many high-powered
careers. Innate ability does set limits on what careers people can
enter. This is common sense and is backed by a lot research, but you
consistently try to deny it. You are right that parents cannot make
their children gifted.

*Superior parents produce
gifted, straight-A, prestigious school attending children,
y'know.


We both know that parents with good academic records *tend* to have
children who do well in school, and I think the evidence from adoption
and other studies shows that the transmission mechanism is primarily
genetic rather than environmental (how the parents raise the
children). I don't think I can do much now to increase the
intelligence of my children. The main "lever" in that regard has been
to marry an intelligent woman. If my children are gifted, they should
be able to progress through the curriculum at a considerably faster
pace than children of average intelligence. That's what I will try to
help them accomplish.

  #75  
Old April 5th 08, 05:17 PM posted to misc.kids
Sarah Vaughan
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Posts: 443
Default I hate homework!

Banty wrote:
In article EuBJj.30$bQ1.19@trndny09, Jeff says...


However, to say that giving homework is not backed by any actual data is
wrong.

This site has many references: http://www.netc.org/focus/strategies/home.php


Did you read this from that page?

Grade level is important when teachers assign homework. Impact of homework on
achievement increases as students move through the grades (Cooper, 1989, a, b).
At the high school level, for every 30 additional minutes of homework completed
daily, a student's GPA can increase up to half a point (Keith, 1992). Elementary
students should be assigned homework to establish good learning and study habits
(Cooper, 1989; Cooper, Lindsay, Nye, & Greathouse, 1998; Gorges & Elliot, 1999).


I couldn't even find any of these references on their reference page.
Am I missing something?


All the best,

Sarah
--
http://www.goodenoughmummy.typepad.com

"That which can be destroyed by the truth, should be" - P. C. Hodgell

  #76  
Old April 5th 08, 06:56 PM posted to misc.kids
Jeff
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,321
Default I hate homework!

Sarah Vaughan wrote:
Banty wrote:
In article EuBJj.30$bQ1.19@trndny09, Jeff says...


However, to say that giving homework is not backed by any actual data
is wrong.

This site has many references:
http://www.netc.org/focus/strategies/home.php


Did you read this from that page?

Grade level is important when teachers assign homework. Impact of
homework on
achievement increases as students move through the grades (Cooper,
1989, a, b).
At the high school level, for every 30 additional minutes of homework
completed
daily, a student's GPA can increase up to half a point (Keith, 1992).
Elementary
students should be assigned homework to establish good learning and
study habits
(Cooper, 1989; Cooper, Lindsay, Nye, & Greathouse, 1998; Gorges &
Elliot, 1999).


I couldn't even find any of these references on their reference page. Am
I missing something?


All the best,

Sarah


I found some at scholar.google.com by searching using the author's name
plus homework as keywords.

Jeff
  #77  
Old April 5th 08, 07:25 PM posted to misc.kids
Beth Kevles
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Posts: 269
Default I hate homework!


Hi, again --

I just did a search on the keywords "homework" and "elementary" at
http://www.eric.ed.gov/, and got 1603 results back. (ERIC is the
Education Information Resources Clearinghouse sponsored by the US
government.) Participants in this thread may find some of the abstracts
and papers there instructive.

On another note ... with regards to homework, the real question concerns
whether the consequences of homework are what we expect (improved
ability to work independently, improved academic performance) or are there
unintended consequences that negate the intended consequences? Some
unintended consequence that I've read about:

-- Increases the academic divide between those students who get support
at home and those who don't. (Something like, the rich get richer and
the poor get poorer.)
-- Decreases academic performance (Yup, that *can* be a consequence of
too much time spent on homework.)
-- Promotes childhood obesity (for lack of time to run around.)

Other questions concern the type of homework given, the amount of
homework given, and the developmental levels at which particular types
of homework are given.

--Beth Kevles
-THE-COM-HERE
http://web.mit.edu/kevles/www/nomilk.html -- a page for the milk-allergic
Disclaimer: Nothing in this message should be construed as medical
advice. Please consult with your own medical practicioner.

NOTE: No email is read at my MIT address. Use the GMAIL one if you would
like me to reply.
  #78  
Old April 5th 08, 07:46 PM posted to misc.kids
Donna Metler
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Posts: 309
Default I hate homework!

This thread shows exactly the problems that teachers face. For every parent
who doesn't want their child doing homework, or feels the amount is
unreasonable, there's probably one who sees academics as the most important
thing, and, if anything, wants MORE homework or harder homework. For every
parent who thinks writing assignments are a good thing, there's another one
who wants models.

And when you start assigning different assignments or various choices, you
get parents complaining that child X's assignment isn't equal to child Y's
effort.

I more and more believe that the solution is a lot of different, niche
schools, and to have policies on things like homework out and published so
parents can choose what fits their child and their lifestyle the best-but
unless you're in a large urban area, that's probably not feasible just due
to population density, and with programs like NCLB in place, it's hard to
individualize schools (we HAD one public Montessori school in my former
district, and even pre-NCLB, it was struggling to maintain it's identity.
Post NCLB, when the district was labeled as failing, it pretty much ceased
being "Montessori" past Kindergarten-and really is only marginally so even
in K now.) If all the kids in school X don't have homework, and parents know
that going in so that if they want homework they can go to school Y, maybe
that would make both groups a little happier.



  #79  
Old April 5th 08, 07:48 PM posted to misc.kids
Anne Rogers
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Posts: 1,497
Default I hate homework!


In my experience, children who haven't had much homework before hand
adapt easily to an increased demand when they start secondary. *So it
isn' necessary to start it sooner.


This is definitely my experience, my sister and I both went to private
secondary school, the homework load was a bit higher than state
secondary schools, but only fractionally. For various reasons it ended
up that my sister was in the specific prep school for that school and
I was in state primary, she had regular homework, I had none. There
was definitely a huge learning curve for me, in terms of the quality
of the work done, doing worksheets doesn't teach you how to plan your
time for an hour long essay, but actually recording accurately what
homework had to be done, sitting down and doing it and getting it to
the right place at the right time was a none issue (to the extent that
my mum refused to sign things after a few weeks, everything was
supposed to be recorded, checked and signed for two years, she
wouldn't sign in the absence of checking, nor waste her time checking
unnecessarily). I don't think 4 years of practice really helped my
sister and it was always much more of a stresser, I never did homework
at the kitchen table, at age 11 I was fully able to understand that I
worked at my desk in my room, if the work got done, I'd keep that
priviledge, whereas she seemed to be a continual cycle of gaining and
losing that privelidge. Obviously we are two different people, but the
end result was remarkable similar, the rigors of prep school seemed to
make little difference, it may have improved weaker subjects, but
crushed flare in others, everything points to us having very similar
strengths, weaknesses and interests academically, and our averages
were always similar, but resulting from a different pattern of
performance, though we finally left school with identical grades in
identical subjects, something our parents predicted, but not our
teachers or reports.

Cheers
Anne
  #80  
Old April 5th 08, 08:06 PM posted to misc.kids
Jeff
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,321
Default I hate homework!

Beth Kevles wrote:
Hi, again --

I just did a search on the keywords "homework" and "elementary" at
http://www.eric.ed.gov/, and got 1603 results back. (ERIC is the
Education Information Resources Clearinghouse sponsored by the US
government.) Participants in this thread may find some of the abstracts
and papers there instructive.

On another note ... with regards to homework, the real question concerns
whether the consequences of homework are what we expect (improved
ability to work independently, improved academic performance) or are there
unintended consequences that negate the intended consequences? Some
unintended consequence that I've read about:

-- Increases the academic divide between those students who get support
at home and those who don't. (Something like, the rich get richer and
the poor get poorer.)


So we should hold back the students who have involved parents so that
those who don't have involved parents can stay up? Wouldn't it make more
sense to help those students who don't have involved parents with after
school programs?

-- Decreases academic performance (Yup, that *can* be a consequence of
too much time spent on homework.)


If the homework isn't assigned properly.

-- Promotes childhood obesity (for lack of time to run around.)


Evidence to support this.

Other questions concern the type of homework given, the amount of
homework given, and the developmental levels at which particular types
of homework are given.

--Beth Kevles
-THE-COM-HERE
http://web.mit.edu/kevles/www/nomilk.html -- a page for the milk-allergic
Disclaimer: Nothing in this message should be construed as medical
advice. Please consult with your own medical practicioner.

NOTE: No email is read at my MIT address. Use the GMAIL one if you would
like me to reply.

 




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