pregnant 17 year old

"Ericka Kammerer" wrote in message
...
Chris wrote:

Excuse me, but is it not the FATHER'S responsibility to step up to the
plate
and take care of both his pregnant woman and child to be?

Of course it is. But that doesn't have a thing to
do with *your* responsibilities. Your job is a lot easier
if he does his job, but if he doesn't do his job, that doesn't
mean you get to wash your hands of it and say, "not my problem."

Is it not the
pregnant woman's responsibility to do the same?

Of course it is her responsibility to step up to the
plate and become a mother, if she chooses to parent. But she
is obviously a teen who doesn't have a great track record of
making responsible choices. Obviously, she continues to be
in need of guidance. As far as I can tell, it looks like
the parenting that's gone on to date hasn't been all that
successful, so guess y'all have some remedial work to do.
C'est la vie. No one likes that when it happens, but
sometimes you get the short end of the stick.

What do I have to do with that situation?

You are her father. You are the baby's grandfather.
You have a responsibility to do your absolute, level best
to raise a competent, civilized, productive citizen. You
came into the game late, so that makes things more challenging.
Looks like the situation you CHOSE to walk into wasn't the
best to begin with. Oh, well. You're still a father, and
you have a daughter who is in crisis and needs love and
support and guidance. Your job is to figure out what *works*
and do it. That's not likely to be easy, but in my opinion,
that is what is owed from a parent to a child--even a child
who has passed that magic age of 18. The job of parenting
this child is obviously not complete.

Bear in mind that any "booting out" will be the choice of my
stepdaughter, not me.

I'd believe that if I saw any evidence whatsoever
that you *really* tried to step up to the plate and parent
this child and provide the loving guidance she needs. But
I don't see any evidence of that. You already admit you have
no emotional connection to her. It's kinda hard to provide
that loving guidance without that. Kids need loving the most
when they're being the most unlovable. As far as I can tell,
you've issued a lot of ultimatums and, surprise, surprise,
she's rebelled. Whoop-de-do. She's obviously been through a
lot in her life and I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that she
hasn't had the parenting she's needed over the years. And
in you waltz and start issuing ultimatums. Is it any wonder
a girl whose already troubled is going to go from bad to
worse in that sort of situation? I think not.
What have *YOU* done in the several years that
you've been a parent to this troubled girl to deserve
her respect and love? What have you done to show her
how she *should* be treated by a kind and loving man?
What kind of effort have you made to actually *help*
her, rather than just laying down rules and regs and
giving your victim story about how she's never liked
or respected you? Why on early *would* she be thrilled
to have a man come into her life whose view is that
it's perfectly proper for him to insert himself between
her and her mother? Clearly this girl has had serious
issues in the past while she was significantly further
from being an adult. You're all gung ho to bring in
the troops to get her out of your hair and "fix" her.
What resources did you bring to bear to resolve her and
your family issues *before* you got to this point,
besides just laying down the law about what she had
to do to be allowed to have your roof over her head?
You don't have to answer all those questions;
you don't have to defend yourself point by point. I'm
just laying the questions out there. I'm getting a
strong whiff of "I didn't sign on to be a parent; I
didn't screw up this kid; now that I'm here her mom
owes me her first loyalty and she can exist on
sufferance if she toes the line." I think that's
a recipe for failure in just about any step-parenting
situation you'd care to point to, leading to just
the sort of situation you're in as a family.

Additionally, I am VERY concerned for the pain it
might cause my wife. That's why I attempt to comfort her by reminding her
that this is her daughter's SOLE decision as an independent adult. This
may
or may not help, but nonetheless I am concerned about her pain!

You're making much of this "independent adult"
thing. This girl is so obviously not a mature, independent,
responsible adult it isn't even funny. She's not even
capable of making these decisions rationally. You're
just making excuses because you don't want to deal with
this. I can understand that. It's likely to be a long,
hard slog. It's just the *right* long, hard, slog.
Mind you, I've never said that you had to open
your doors and let her trample through your lives without
any constraints. This is about your *attitude* towards
all of this. As long as your attitude is "*I* take first
place with mom, and daughter can either toe the line or
get the hell out of my house" this whole thing isn't
going anywhere good. Did it ever occur to you that this
girl may be so desperately unhappy with what should be
her loving home that she'd do *anything*, including
conceive *two* babies with a man before she's ready,
in the hopes that maybe he would step up to the plate
and be a responsible and loving man in her life and
take her away from all this? That just maybe the
situation in YOUR family has helped to CREATE this
situation? If you aren't part of the solution...
It may be that the best solution is for her
to live outside your home. I'm certainly all for
doing what you can to insist that she assume the
responsibilities that should be hers. The goal
should definitely be to help her *become* that
responsible, independent mother who can do right
by her child. I think it's likely that some professional
help is warranted for all concerned. If you can find
a great program for her outside your home, more power
to you. Betcha your wife would be thrilled if it were
the case that your daughter could go to some program
that would teach her the skills she needs to be a
responsible mother and citizen while safeguarding her
from slipping into deeper and deeper trouble (and
her child with her). It's the "sink or swim" approach
that probably sits poorly with her--as it should, because
the odds are heavy on "sink" and *I* certainly couldn't
sleep at night with that scenario. Did it occur to you
that perhaps your wife feels terrible that she is likely
complicit in creating the family environment that
has helped make her daughter as she is and maybe she
*can't* just blithely write her daughter's troubles
off as having nothing to do with her and thus not
any of her responsibility? Maybe your wife needs
to find a way to help fix what she (and likely you)
helped break? I'm not making your daughter completely
innocent in all this, but your daughter is a CHILD.
Where were the adults in her life years ago? Sometimes
parents can do all the right things and children still
end up in trouble, but more often than not, there's more
than enough blame and responsibility to go around.

Pain ought NOT be the yardstick by which we measure whether or not to
take
an action. Taking one's child to the doctor for a shot comes to mind.

And it works both ways. Your emotional and financial
pain isn't an adequate argument for failing to help parent
this child who is obviously in desperate need of it. If
the right answer for your daughter is the "sink or swim"
method, by all means, go there. Betcha that's not the
best thing for her, nor for your wife. Betcha someone who
really wants to do the right thing can find a solution
that actually increases the odds of your daughter becoming
successful in her life (in your home or out of it).

No emotional connection because SHE refuses it.

Did you think it would be easy to connect with
her under the circumstances? How long did you really
try before you gave her up as a lost cause? It doesn't
take much of a stretch to imagine that someone whose
loudly proclaiming how his claim to his wife supercedes
his daughter's claim just *might* be resented by
said daughter.

Your daughter is probably a far cry from where
she needs to be in terms of responsibility and respect
and capability and independence and maturity and all
those things. I'm sure she's not a treat to parent.
I'm sorry you (or anyone else) has to struggle through
that sort of thing. But I do think your attitude is
likely behind some of the problems, and I think you
have the ability to be part of the solution if you
choose to do so, and I think you can find a better
solution for your daughter and your wife than "sink
or swim."

Hear, hear. What I would have liked to have said, had I the energy to
continue this pointless debate.


--
Amy
Mum to Carlos born sleeping 20/11/02,
& Ana born screaming 30/06/04
http://www.freewebs.com/carlos2002/
http://www.babiesonline.com/babies/a/ana%5Fj%5F2004/
My blog: http://spaces.msn.com/members/querer-hijo-querer-hija/

Chris wrote:

Thank you for the input.

No problem.

I don't see how anybody can disagree that one who
is old enough to make a decision is old enough to live with the consequences
of such decision. Especially when they are made aware of the consequences
BEFORE the decision is made.

I believe it is because we live in a world where people have been feed
the notion that if something bad happens to you, it's other people's
fault and you should be expected to be relieved of the responsibility
of your own actions, and in some cases, rewarded for this negative
behavior. For example, if you trip and fall on a sidewalk, it's not
because you weren't watching where you were going, it's because the
city did not fix the sidewalk, Nike made a defective shoe and your
parent's divorce had psychological consequences which made you a clumsy
adult.

Seems to me (as you mentioned) that allowing
one to escape the consequences is tantamount to leaving the training wheels
on the bicycle.

It is. Ask yourself, what is stopping her from becoming pregnant again?

Also, my wife did not like me bringing up the "marriage"
decision. Short of her abandoning both of us, there is no way out; she MUST
make her choice.

I agree.

I laid down a few simple rules that her daughter must follow in order to
reside under my roof. Her voluntary choice to disrespect my home equates to
her voluntary choice to leave. Am I wrong?

No, you're absolutely correct.

If I allow her to stay and
violate the rules, then I am allowing her to call the shots in my home!

More than that, you're not being a responsible parent in my eyes. You
are encouraging her negative behavior.

My wife, to her credit, just recently started to help her get on the public
doles and she made a couple suggestions. One is for her to leave 3 months
after baby is born (end of March) and the other is for her to leave at end
of year (when baby is born). My wife claims this is so she can more easily
help daughter with newborn and daughter gets back to work so that she IS
able to support herself (but guess who supports her in the meantime).

I have to disagree with both suggestions. Apparently her and her
boyfriend made a decision that they are ready to have a child. They
both should deal with that decision. Your best bet is to let them do
that on their own at their place of residence.

End of
year is (reluctantly) acceptable so long as she follows house rules (which I
doubt), but after that she would be in violation. My concern is that if I
give her a finger she will try for the hand, and if I give her the hand she
will push for the arm...........

She won't. I honestly think she still has issues over her parent's
seperation. The longer you let this drag out, the more hurt and chaos
you will allow in your home.

I am not too thrilled about bending the rules since it will probably send
the message that rules are worthless. But on the other hand, it may be what
it takes to lay this thing to bed and afford the best protection
(considering circumstances) for my family. In other words, no matter which
way it goes I will end up with either a harmed family or no family. Unless,
of course, my wife decides to be what a wife ought to be.

I rather choose "no family" because the way I see it, if you do not
have a proper wife, then your focus in life is misguided and the two of
you are just room mates.

By the way, if I am doling out the welfare to provide her room & board, am I
out of line by demanding information regarding her entire financial
situation; income, bank account, personal assets, etc.?

In my opinion, yes you are out of line. She is an adult and it's
important for you to treat her as such if you ever hope to have a
chance in hell for her to start acting like one.

Regards...

Chris wrote:
"Ericka Kammerer" wrote in message
...

Chris wrote:

"Ericka Kammerer" wrote in message
...


Chris wrote:


"Ericka Kammerer" wrote in message
...



Chris wrote:




Yielding to spousal blackmail does not strengthen a marriage.

Agreed. You are engaging in spousal blackmail.


How so?

You're telling your spouse it's your way or
the highway. If she doesn't give in to your demands,
you will not support her. Seems pretty clear cut to
me.


Clear cut fantasy. Contrarily, it is my spouse that's telling me it's

her

way or the highway. Blackmail is an unjustified ultimatum, and that is
EXACTLY what my wife is doing when she tells me that I must allow her to

do

something harmful to our family or she will leave. Regarding such

"demand",

I have laid down rules that will protect our family. What I will not

support

is her refusal to abide by the rules. Why? Because it HARMS our
family........ that's why!

Pot, meet kettle.


Care to demonstrate your analogy?

You believe that the only valid response to this
situation is to assert *your* definition of family and
*your* priorities and *your* beliefs and lay down the
law as to how things must be in the family. Your wife
has her own definition of what is family, what is morally
and ethically right, and what will be best for your
daughter. Neither of you are budging, and you do not
accept any resolution other than her complete capitulation
to your definitions and rules. Doesn't get any more clear
than that, to me. Mature, reasonable folk work their
way through these sorts of situations with love and
an attitude of trying to understand their partner's
perspective and meet their partner's needs as best
they can. You don't appear interested in any of that.
You've decided what the outcome must be, and your
wife is just getting in your way. It's not particular
surprising that under those circumstances, she's not
all that pleased with the relationship and your
"leadership" in the family.

Best wishes,
Ericka

Nan wrote:
On Sun, 9 Oct 2005 12:39:31 -0700, "Chris" wrote:

Unless,
of course, my wife decides to be what a wife ought to be.

*laughs*

I can only imagine how this thread would go if this topic was about
Chris wanting to bring his parapeligic mother to come live with them
and his wife was on here posting something along the lines of "We
cannot afford to pay for her medication and home health care. Also his
mother disrespects me and questions everything I do."

I'm sure comments like "Your husband ought to be a husband and respect
your wishes" would be abundant.

No wonder asgf likes you. He's not well thought of in this group,
btw.

Your passive agressive response does nothing to counter my point of
view.

Birds of a feather and all that....

You old hen.

Nan

Regards...

Anonymama wrote:


"Chris" seems to be a poster to talk.abortion, alt.politics.*,
alt.child-support, alt.fan.rush-limbaugh... We should be thankful this
conversation has remained as civil as it has so far.
--
accompanied by TK, number two, due in April of 2006

Let's see...abortion, politics, child-support and conservatism. Why
would people who participate in such forums be considered uncivilized?

Regards...

*EXCELLENT* post, Ericka!
I have no doubt "Chris" won't get anything out of it, but you said
everything I've been wanting to.

Nan


On Sun, 09 Oct 2005 19:41:29 -0400, Ericka Kammerer
wrote:

Chris wrote:

Excuse me, but is it not the FATHER'S responsibility to step up to the plate
and take care of both his pregnant woman and child to be?

Of course it is. But that doesn't have a thing to
do with *your* responsibilities. Your job is a lot easier
if he does his job, but if he doesn't do his job, that doesn't
mean you get to wash your hands of it and say, "not my problem."

Is it not the
pregnant woman's responsibility to do the same?

Of course it is her responsibility to step up to the
plate and become a mother, if she chooses to parent. But she
is obviously a teen who doesn't have a great track record of
making responsible choices. Obviously, she continues to be
in need of guidance. As far as I can tell, it looks like
the parenting that's gone on to date hasn't been all that
successful, so guess y'all have some remedial work to do.
C'est la vie. No one likes that when it happens, but
sometimes you get the short end of the stick.

What do I have to do with that situation?

You are her father. You are the baby's grandfather.
You have a responsibility to do your absolute, level best
to raise a competent, civilized, productive citizen. You
came into the game late, so that makes things more challenging.
Looks like the situation you CHOSE to walk into wasn't the
best to begin with. Oh, well. You're still a father, and
you have a daughter who is in crisis and needs love and
support and guidance. Your job is to figure out what *works*
and do it. That's not likely to be easy, but in my opinion,
that is what is owed from a parent to a child--even a child
who has passed that magic age of 18. The job of parenting
this child is obviously not complete.

Bear in mind that any "booting out" will be the choice of my
stepdaughter, not me.

I'd believe that if I saw any evidence whatsoever
that you *really* tried to step up to the plate and parent
this child and provide the loving guidance she needs. But
I don't see any evidence of that. You already admit you have
no emotional connection to her. It's kinda hard to provide
that loving guidance without that. Kids need loving the most
when they're being the most unlovable. As far as I can tell,
you've issued a lot of ultimatums and, surprise, surprise,
she's rebelled. Whoop-de-do. She's obviously been through a
lot in her life and I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that she
hasn't had the parenting she's needed over the years. And
in you waltz and start issuing ultimatums. Is it any wonder
a girl whose already troubled is going to go from bad to
worse in that sort of situation? I think not.
What have *YOU* done in the several years that
you've been a parent to this troubled girl to deserve
her respect and love? What have you done to show her
how she *should* be treated by a kind and loving man?
What kind of effort have you made to actually *help*
her, rather than just laying down rules and regs and
giving your victim story about how she's never liked
or respected you? Why on early *would* she be thrilled
to have a man come into her life whose view is that
it's perfectly proper for him to insert himself between
her and her mother? Clearly this girl has had serious
issues in the past while she was significantly further
from being an adult. You're all gung ho to bring in
the troops to get her out of your hair and "fix" her.
What resources did you bring to bear to resolve her and
your family issues *before* you got to this point,
besides just laying down the law about what she had
to do to be allowed to have your roof over her head?
You don't have to answer all those questions;
you don't have to defend yourself point by point. I'm
just laying the questions out there. I'm getting a
strong whiff of "I didn't sign on to be a parent; I
didn't screw up this kid; now that I'm here her mom
owes me her first loyalty and she can exist on
sufferance if she toes the line." I think that's
a recipe for failure in just about any step-parenting
situation you'd care to point to, leading to just
the sort of situation you're in as a family.

Additionally, I am VERY concerned for the pain it
might cause my wife. That's why I attempt to comfort her by reminding her
that this is her daughter's SOLE decision as an independent adult. This may
or may not help, but nonetheless I am concerned about her pain!

You're making much of this "independent adult"
thing. This girl is so obviously not a mature, independent,
responsible adult it isn't even funny. She's not even
capable of making these decisions rationally. You're
just making excuses because you don't want to deal with
this. I can understand that. It's likely to be a long,
hard slog. It's just the *right* long, hard, slog.
Mind you, I've never said that you had to open
your doors and let her trample through your lives without
any constraints. This is about your *attitude* towards
all of this. As long as your attitude is "*I* take first
place with mom, and daughter can either toe the line or
get the hell out of my house" this whole thing isn't
going anywhere good. Did it ever occur to you that this
girl may be so desperately unhappy with what should be
her loving home that she'd do *anything*, including
conceive *two* babies with a man before she's ready,
in the hopes that maybe he would step up to the plate
and be a responsible and loving man in her life and
take her away from all this? That just maybe the
situation in YOUR family has helped to CREATE this
situation? If you aren't part of the solution...
It may be that the best solution is for her
to live outside your home. I'm certainly all for
doing what you can to insist that she assume the
responsibilities that should be hers. The goal
should definitely be to help her *become* that
responsible, independent mother who can do right
by her child. I think it's likely that some professional
help is warranted for all concerned. If you can find
a great program for her outside your home, more power
to you. Betcha your wife would be thrilled if it were
the case that your daughter could go to some program
that would teach her the skills she needs to be a
responsible mother and citizen while safeguarding her
from slipping into deeper and deeper trouble (and
her child with her). It's the "sink or swim" approach
that probably sits poorly with her--as it should, because
the odds are heavy on "sink" and *I* certainly couldn't
sleep at night with that scenario. Did it occur to you
that perhaps your wife feels terrible that she is likely
complicit in creating the family environment that
has helped make her daughter as she is and maybe she
*can't* just blithely write her daughter's troubles
off as having nothing to do with her and thus not
any of her responsibility? Maybe your wife needs
to find a way to help fix what she (and likely you)
helped break? I'm not making your daughter completely
innocent in all this, but your daughter is a CHILD.
Where were the adults in her life years ago? Sometimes
parents can do all the right things and children still
end up in trouble, but more often than not, there's more
than enough blame and responsibility to go around.

Pain ought NOT be the yardstick by which we measure whether or not to take
an action. Taking one's child to the doctor for a shot comes to mind.

And it works both ways. Your emotional and financial
pain isn't an adequate argument for failing to help parent
this child who is obviously in desperate need of it. If
the right answer for your daughter is the "sink or swim"
method, by all means, go there. Betcha that's not the
best thing for her, nor for your wife. Betcha someone who
really wants to do the right thing can find a solution
that actually increases the odds of your daughter becoming
successful in her life (in your home or out of it).

No emotional connection because SHE refuses it.

Did you think it would be easy to connect with
her under the circumstances? How long did you really
try before you gave her up as a lost cause? It doesn't
take much of a stretch to imagine that someone whose
loudly proclaiming how his claim to his wife supercedes
his daughter's claim just *might* be resented by
said daughter.

Your daughter is probably a far cry from where
she needs to be in terms of responsibility and respect
and capability and independence and maturity and all
those things. I'm sure she's not a treat to parent.
I'm sorry you (or anyone else) has to struggle through
that sort of thing. But I do think your attitude is
likely behind some of the problems, and I think you
have the ability to be part of the solution if you
choose to do so, and I think you can find a better
solution for your daughter and your wife than "sink
or swim."

Best wishes,
Ericka

Let's see if we can find a correlation he

Nan, Ericka, Alath: parents, spouses, healthy marriage & family
relationships

Chris: obviously not a parent, marriage "hanging by a thread"

agsf: aspires to Chris' status

Whose advice on marriage and family relationships has the most
credibility here?

I don't know why we've wasted so much time talking to/about this guy.
Any kind of grown-up talk goes right over their heads. Chris isn't
interested in being a better person, a better parent, or a better
spouse: he's only interested in justifying himself.

I've had enough.

Basically this (even the snipped parts) translates to that you should
be an open wallet for your wife and step-child. Oh, by the way, it
might even be your fault that she got pregnant in the first place so
it's your obligation to correct this.

By the way Chris, this woman's "logic" also applies to child molestors,
drug users/dealers, murders, single moms/dads, illegal aliens and
anyone else who she feels should not be held accountable for their own
actions because of some social economic factor. So we should raise
taxes (punish everyone, especially those with big wallets) and care for
these poor people because if we dwell deep enough, we are all to blame.


Regards...


Ericka Kammerer wrote:
SNIP

Your daughter is probably a far cry from where
she needs to be in terms of responsibility and respect
and capability and independence and maturity and all
those things. I'm sure she's not a treat to parent.
I'm sorry you (or anyone else) has to struggle through
that sort of thing. But I do think your attitude is
likely behind some of the problems, and I think you
have the ability to be part of the solution if you
choose to do so, and I think you can find a better
solution for your daughter and your wife than "sink
or swim."

Best wishes,
Ericka

alath wrote:
Let's see if we can find a correlation he

Nan, Ericka, Alath: parents, spouses, healthy marriage & family
relationships

Chris: obviously not a parent, marriage "hanging by a thread"

agsf: aspires to Chris' status

Actually, I am a parent, spouse, have healthy marriage (of 4 years) &
family relationships. I am also financially secure at a young age. All
this with no one's help and on my own since I was 18.

Whose advice on marriage and family relationships has the most
credibility here?

I believe everyone has a right to say and defend their point of view.
What you see are two schools of thought approaching the same issue.
However, I have a theory that there is a hypocritical bias against
Chris because he is a man. Try reversing the situation and see if the
results would be the same.

I don't know why we've wasted so much time talking to/about this guy.
Any kind of grown-up talk goes right over their heads. Chris isn't
interested in being a better person, a better parent, or a better
spouse: he's only interested in justifying himself.

Ohhh, please don't tell me that you are a fine example of a grown-up.
Your passive aggressive techniques are used by 3 year old girls in day
care.

I've had enough.

Yes, because you can't justify yourself.

Regards...

Actually, I am a parent, spouse, have healthy marriage (of 4 years) &
family relationships.

Sorry, I should have specified. I was talking about REAL marriages and
children. Marriages between Dungeons and Dragons characters, or those
consummated on porn web sites, don't count.