Normal 2-year-old? Or Mommy messing up?

My daughter didn't do this at 2, but at 3 she is certainly trying my
patience. She tends to listen to DH more, I assume because she sees
him less as he works all day while I stay home.

I tell her to do it, and if she doesn't I make her. So if she won't
get in the car seat, I lift her and put her in it. I don't always take
things away but I have thrown toys in the trash can (a clean one) at
her refusal to clean up her playroom.

My daugther has seen me pretty mad too, I always feel guilty afterwards
and wish I had handled the situation differently but sometimes being a
mom of a stubborn toddler is just so frustrating.

Katherine

MamaLiz wrote:
Probably a mix of both, I suspect.

DD is 2-1/2, and in general a well-behaved child - but when she is not,
she is completely impossible. Won't sit in the car seat, won't sit
still to have her diaper changed, runs away when it's time to get
dressed, etc.

My approach has been to issue an instruction once - "Get in your
carseat" - and if she does not obey, produce a consequence. This
morning, for example, I took her kitty and her blanket away (and then
picked her up, put her in the car seat, and buckled her in). Of
course, even when I do this, more often than not she thinks it's funny
- she shrieks with laughter, apparently amused at ****ing off Mommy. I
try not to react emotionally, but I have to admit sometimes she drives
me to tears. (And I'm guessing that's part of the game - we know Mommy
will have a meltdown, so let's misbehave until it happens! Free
entertainment!)

She does not tend to giggle like a maniac with DH. He will tell her
once what to do, and if she doesn't do it, he tells her again in a
severe tone. (He doesn't yell, at least not often; but it's definitely
intended to intimidate.) His approach is more likely to get her to
comply, although it doesn't always work; but when it doesn't work she
doesn't laugh. She knows he's mad, and she doesn't like it.

When I complain to DH of my frustration with her, he tells me my tone
is the problem - she doesn't believe I'll follow through. But how can
that be, when I DO follow through?

I am not 100% consistent, certainly, and perhaps that's part of the
problem. I tend to give in on small, non-charged things (yes, okay,
you can take that card off of Mommy's desk after all). Maybe that's
enough to make her know she can push the point - although DH gives in
on little things, too.

Here is what I would LIKE to do: I would like to continue with my
method, stating my expectations clearly (and neutrally) and having
swift and appropriate consequences for disobedience. I would like to
NOT lose my mind when she keeps giggling and being defiant, even after
she's complied with the original instruction. I would like to work at
being more consistent on the little things, even if it means opening
with "yes" instead of "no" more often.

What I DON'T want to do is have to learn how to intimidate (frighten)
my kid to get her to behave. But is that the only way to go in the
midst of the Terrible Twos? (I can tell you, I've been pretty ****ed
off in front of her, and if I don't scare her now I can't imagine what
I could possibly change that would work.)

TIA,

Liz

KR wrote:

I tell her to do it, and if she doesn't I make her. So if she won't
get in the car seat, I lift her and put her in it. I don't always take
things away but I have thrown toys in the trash can (a clean one) at
her refusal to clean up her playroom.

Why a clean trash can? Do you mean that you go back
later and fish them out? I think that's shooting yourself in
the foot. Never threaten to throw toys away unless you really
and truly are willing to follow through on that consequence.
If you throw the toy away, it needs to be gone. Period. I
suppose you could fish it out to put it in the attic and keep
it for posterity or something, but it's gone as far as the
child is concerned. "Throwing it out" and then having it
reappear sometime in the future just sends the message that
you can always get a "do over," which is a bad assumption to
rely on in the real world. You're undermining your own
credibility when you do that. An alternate might be to
get a trash bag and tell her that the consequence for
refusing to put away her toys is that all the toys that
are out will be put in storage for a week and she won't
have access to them.
Still, in that sort of situation,
I don't really like the implied bargain in that sort
of consequence. Does that mean it's okay for her to decide
that she doesn't feel like cleaning up if she's willing
to do without the toys for a week (or forever, if you
throw them away)? For me, that's not okay. If the
room needs cleaning, then the child is expected to do
it (or help, or whatever is an age-appropriate expectation).
That's an area where I would use SPR with a 3yo. I'd be
willing to negotiate the details of how and when (for
a younger kid, I would probably require a certain amount
of time, or that certain things be picked up, rather than
issuing a general "clean your room" directive, which is
too vague and can be too overwhelming if the room's a
disaster), but would not be willing to bargain away
the child participating in the process. An acceptable
outcome in the end is not that the child allows the
room to get to be a disaster and then I swoop in and
have to pick everything up and find somewhere to store
it until the consequence is over.

Best wishes,
Ericka

I guess I am glad (in a misery loves company sort of way) to hear that
others are struggling with how to get a toddler to clean up. Our
latest trick has us in sort of a
we-probably-are-messing-them-up-for-life vs. but-it-works dilemma. Our
two-year old son is often very sweet with his six-month-old sister but
he is in a phase right now that it is a huge crisis if she touches any
of his things -- even reaching out to touch the book if we are reading
to both of them at the same time. If he leaves something on the floor,
we point out that the baby might come along and touch it. She cannot
actually do that yet but it still motivates him most of the time --
and, of course, she will be able to do it soon.

Even though it will undercut this technique, we are also working on
sharing. He actually is getting better at letting her play with the
infant toys that used to be his. At grandma's house, we have stopped
calling the toys his and started saying that they are grandma's toys
and she lets both him and his sister play with them. One of the books
we are going to give our daughter for the holidays actually will be of
more interest to him and we plan to suggest that the baby probably
would be willing to share it with him but he has to be willing to share
some of his things with the baby as long as she does not hurt them.
(It WOULD be unfair to let her drool or chew on something he really
likes.) Any other strategies that have worked with two-year-olds?

I just realized I better be careful about this. I wonder if we are
still going to be using any variations on these tricks after the kids
learn how to read and use Google Groups.

Sometimes if my daugther absolutely refuses to put something away that
is very in the way then I pretend to trip over it and hurt myself. It
does work. I don't do this for the little things, but if she has her
whole little people collection left in the middle of the hallway I do.

I'm thankful that my older daughter is very willing to share with my 7
month old. It helps to have toys that are great for playing together
with, she has a musical instrument set and often starts a sister's
band... She gives the baby the maracas while she plays guitar and
sings... Too cute! She also gets very excited about the concept
of teaching the baby new things, like how to do a puzzle. In a way I
think it is a girl thing, I've never seen an older brother act that
way...

Ericka, the toys I threw in the trash didn't actually make it back to
the playrom, I ended up giving them away after realizing DD didn't even
miss them. She had wayy too many toys. She is adamant on keeping her
bedroom clean and is getting better at keeping her playroom somewhat
clean.

KR

Jonathan Levy wrote:
I guess I am glad (in a misery loves company sort of way) to hear that
others are struggling with how to get a toddler to clean up. Our
latest trick has us in sort of a
we-probably-are-messing-them-up-for-life vs. but-it-works dilemma. Our
two-year old son is often very sweet with his six-month-old sister but
he is in a phase right now that it is a huge crisis if she touches any
of his things -- even reaching out to touch the book if we are reading
to both of them at the same time. If he leaves something on the floor,
we point out that the baby might come along and touch it. She cannot
actually do that yet but it still motivates him most of the time --
and, of course, she will be able to do it soon.

Even though it will undercut this technique, we are also working on
sharing. He actually is getting better at letting her play with the
infant toys that used to be his. At grandma's house, we have stopped
calling the toys his and started saying that they are grandma's toys
and she lets both him and his sister play with them. One of the books
we are going to give our daughter for the holidays actually will be of
more interest to him and we plan to suggest that the baby probably
would be willing to share it with him but he has to be willing to share
some of his things with the baby as long as she does not hurt them.
(It WOULD be unfair to let her drool or chew on something he really
likes.) Any other strategies that have worked with two-year-olds?

I just realized I better be careful about this. I wonder if we are
still going to be using any variations on these tricks after the kids
learn how to read and use Google Groups.

KR wrote:

Ericka, the toys I threw in the trash didn't actually make it back to
the playrom, I ended up giving them away after realizing DD didn't even
miss them.

Ahhh, that makes sense. No sense it throwing away
a perfectly good toy when others might enjoy it.

She had wayy too many toys.

I do think this is the kiss of death for kids keeping
things picked up. Too many toys makes for an overwhelming
cleanup job, and it also means that kids tend to take what
they have for granted.

Best wishes,
Ericka

"Ericka Kammerer" wrote in message
...
KR wrote:

I tell her to do it, and if she doesn't I make her. So if she won't
get in the car seat, I lift her and put her in it. I don't always take
things away but I have thrown toys in the trash can (a clean one) at
her refusal to clean up her playroom.

Why a clean trash can? Do you mean that you go back
later and fish them out? I think that's shooting yourself in
the foot. Never threaten to throw toys away unless you really
and truly are willing to follow through on that consequence.
If you throw the toy away, it needs to be gone. Period.
Yup Bonnie knows that if a toy goes in a trash bag it can only come out if
we agree on a toy swap and if we dont it is gone.

Tori