Sleep and older children

dragonlady wrote:
In article ,
Banty wrote:

Oh! You have the teen going about his chores, practicing his instrument,
doing
his homework, when eveyone else is in bed!

Someone - pick me off the floor! Bwaaaa haa haaaah!

May strike you as odd -- but some do. I had one daughter who frequently
did chores late at night after everyone else was in bed, and my son
would get up VERY early to do his.

Yep, my DD13 really does do this. Since the house rules are no t.v.,
phone calls, and computer after 8 pm, what else would she be doing late
at night?

Also DD13 has never needed much sleep - while I do best with *at least*
8 hours, for her, 7 hours is ideal. Although it's true now that she's
hit puberty from time to time she sleeps much longer and I don't bother
her because 1) it's so suprising! and 2) I figure she's growing or
coming down with something.

But most nights, while she might be in her bedroom, she doesn't
actually fall asleep until midnight or so. She gets up at 7 am for
school, bright-eyed and bushy-tailed, and often before the alarm clock
goes off. Some mornings she's out the door an hour early, to get
homework help in the library before school starts. Or because she woke
up early and figured she might as well head to school early to
socialize before homeroom.

We have a small house so I can hear DD13 going about her business while
I'm already in bed. From what I've heard and observed, her late-night
activities might include any of the following:

1) Finish homework at kitchen table

2) Organize her stuff for the next day: clean out backpack, pack lunch
(she makes elaborate lunches, like salads or sushi rolls)

3) Take a shower or long bath (she can spend an hour in the bathroom
doing who knows what - sometimes she practices her makeup skills before
washing it all off in the shower)

4) Sort laundry and throw in a load (she's been responsible for her own
laundry for a couple of years now and is most likely to do it at night)

5) Try on clothes to figure out what outfit she's going to wear the
next day (I know this because if I'm still up, she'll often come to
twirl for me and ask me what I think of her latest ensemble)

6) Curl up on the sofa with a book and a cup of hot tea that she's made
for herself

7) Curl up in bed with a book and -lately- light some incense (this one
will prompt me to intervene and tell her to put it out - I don't want
her falling asleep & burning down the house)

8) Clean up her room (but she's not allowed to vaccuum at night!) and,
before our hamster died recently, often clean out its cage (who wants
to go to bed with a smelly hamster cage near your head??)

9) Practice piano on the keyboard with the headphones on so she doesn't
disturb anyone

10) Listen to her ipod in her bedroom while painting her fingernails
and toes

11) Go through the bookshelf to find something new to read

12) Practice her dance moves in her bedroom in front of the mirror

13) Look in the mirror at herself for hours, treating zits, trying
different hair styles, and practicing "poses"

14) Endlessly replay video clips of her friends that she has stored on
her cell phone (especially the one of the guy she has a crush on)

Does that make her an unusual teen? Maybe so. She's long been
self-motivated, independent kid. A few years ago, she gave up t.v. for
Lent. That was a big challenge for her. But during that challenge, she
learned how to fill her own time without t.v., and she's never looked
back. Nowadays she watches t.v. only on weekends - a video Friday night
and maybe an hour on Saturday and Sunday.

Now, DD11 is totally different. If I didn't turn the t.v. off at 8 pm,
she'd stay up hours and hours watching it. She's a total t.v. addict,
so I do have to limit her t.v. hours. Without the t.v., she'll gets
easily bored and goes right to bed, where she'll read for 20 minutes
and then fall fast asleep.

And while DD11 does also maintain a clean room, pack her own lunch,
organizes her stuff for the next day, etc.... she's far more likely
than her sister to want an audience while she does all those things.
She has always been a really social kid, and has far greater needs for
social interaction than her sister.

Also DD11 has always needed a ton of sleep. This is the kid who slept
through the first night at the hospital, 12 hours straight, and
continued sleeping through the night, every night, plus napping 4 hours
each day. My easy baby!

Today, she does best if she's asleep by 9 pm and gets a full 10 hours
each night. I expect in a few years she'll be the grumpy teen I am
forced to blast out of bed at lunchtime, but not because her schedule
drifted; more because her sleep needs will increase as she enters
puberty.

jen

bizby40 wrote:
"Ericka Kammerer" wrote in message
...

Everyone has to bend and accommodate special
occasions. I still contend that if you've got, say, a teen
who habitually gets up at noon and the rest of the family
on more of a 8am-10pm schedule, you're missing out on a
lot of family time.

The thing I keep getting from you that you might not be intending is
the idea that getting up and going to bed early is the "right" thing
to do. That if it works for everyone that it's okay to shift
schedules, but that the early riser has, well, sort of the veto power,

No, I'm saying that all the individuals in the family
need to generally (special occasion excepted) conform to what
meets the needs of the family, which I believe ought to stress
a need for family time in addition to all the assorted and sundry
things individuals and families need to do. If more family time
was to be gained by everyone rising late, then that would be
preferable. However, since the nature of jobs and business
hours and activities and such generally push towards more of
a daytime existence, I suspect that *most* families will have
at least the adults not on a night owl's schedule. In my
experience, it's pretty uncommon to find a family where the
whole family is on that schedule. Typically, it's the teens
who are on a night owl schedule while everyone else maintains
a more daytime schedule. That, I believe, compromises the
family because it limits family time--and at an age where
it's often a rocky transition to begin with.

Best wishes,
Ericka

"Ericka Kammerer" wrote in message
...
bizby40 wrote:
"Ericka Kammerer" wrote in message
...

Everyone has to bend and accommodate special
occasions. I still contend that if you've got, say, a teen
who habitually gets up at noon and the rest of the family
on more of a 8am-10pm schedule, you're missing out on a
lot of family time.

The thing I keep getting from you that you might not be intending is the
idea that getting up and going to bed early is the "right" thing to do.
That if it works for everyone that it's okay to shift schedules, but that
the early riser has, well, sort of the veto power,

No, I'm saying that all the individuals in the family
need to generally (special occasion excepted) conform to what
meets the needs of the family, which I believe ought to stress
a need for family time in addition to all the assorted and sundry
things individuals and families need to do. If more family time
was to be gained by everyone rising late, then that would be
preferable. However, since the nature of jobs and business
hours and activities and such generally push towards more of
a daytime existence, I suspect that *most* families will have
at least the adults not on a night owl's schedule. In my
experience, it's pretty uncommon to find a family where the
whole family is on that schedule. Typically, it's the teens
who are on a night owl schedule while everyone else maintains
a more daytime schedule. That, I believe, compromises the
family because it limits family time--and at an age where
it's often a rocky transition to begin with.
So when you've got three teens who need to wake at 1pm and go to bed at 4am,
you and your husband will compromise to fit round them so you can have
family time, as that fits the needs of 60% of your family?
Debbie

shinypenny wrote:

I guess I'm not seeing what you're trying to illustrate.

Scenario #1: Everyone gets up the same time. There is no specific
morning activity, so everyone uses the morning hours to get what they
need to get done, done. Mom tackles the cleaning chores, dad runs to
get groceries, the kids complete their homework and practice their
instruments. No family time here - they're all doing things separately.
Then let's say that leaves them the rest of the day (say 1 pm onward)
for family time, but they go to bed at 8 pm, so that's 7 hours of
family time. During which, the toddler takes a nap and isn't with the
family, and the children might go off to be with friends, which isn't
with the family, so it's probably less than 7 hours in reality, but
let's ignore that for a moment.

Scenario #2: Teen sleeps in late, everyone else is up early. There is
no specific morning activity. Mom does her chores, dad gets groceries,
teen continues to sleep in. Teen wakes up at noon. Instead of tackling
what teen needs to get done (homework, instrument practice), after an
hour of grogginess, he joins the family for family time for the next 7
hours from 1 to 8 pm. Then after everyone else retires at 8 pm, he
tackles that stuff, because he prefers a later bedtime so he can make
up the hours he missed in the AM.

Unless I'm missing something, your scenario would only result in less
family time *if* the teen is not only sleeping in late but *also* going
to bed at 8 pm with the rest of the family.

Scenario #2 isn't realistic for most. Teen *can't* do
much of his or her stuff late at night. That's not when
he's going to be visiting friends, going shopping for whatever
needs getting, going to rehearsals/games/practices/activities,
practicing musical instruments, etc. So, in reality, the
teen is going to spend the afternoon meeting those obligations
that have to be done during "normal" hours, and then will
spend the late evening doing personal stuff (largely
unsupervised, if the adults have needed to check out before
then) and/or homework. So, lack of supervision *and* practically
no family time. If the kid has no activities or other
commitments, sure, you can parcel out that eight hours and
get in some family time, but that's not likely to be our
situation by a long shot, nor is it the case with most
families I know. Most teens seem to want to be out
doing stuff with friends at least, even if they don't
have other activities.
Scenario #1 goes more like we get up and do stuff
together in the morning since that's prime time for the
toddler. After lunch, toddler naps and everyone gets down
to work. Often, the older kids have chosen to knock out
their practice early in the morning so they can use the
afternoon to play with friends, or maybe they have an
activity. Then, the evening is free again for more family
time or whatever.

Unless your chief complaint is that the toddler and the adults can't
get to sleep at 8 pm with a teen who is burning the midnight oil doing
homework, or practicing his instrument?

Yeah, the instrument certainly can't happen while
others are sleeping.

Which I could understand, at
least the instrument part. This is one reason why our house rule is no
t.v., phone calls, or computer after 8 pm. That is different than
dictating someone's sleep schedule though.

I will add here that for a long time I felt I couldn't relax and retire
to my bedroom until my kids were all tucked in. I think that comes with
the parenting territory - when the kids are very young, you are
constantly on guard worrying they will electrocute or poison
themselves, or burn the house down if unattended.

Personally, I think there's value in some supervision
past the stage where you're just worried about their physical
safety.

This past year I'm slowly learning that it's okay if DD13 is still up
tinkering around the house with homework, or sorting her laundry,
getting organized for the next day, or taking a shower, or reading on
the sofa instead of in her bed, whatever.... and I'm nodding off to bed
already. It's her house too. As long as she's considerate of the rest
of us and not making a huge racket practicing her piano or watching the
t.v. or yakking on her phone or clanging dirty dishes into the
dishwasher, I think she should feel comfortable in her own house doing
her own thing in her own timeframe.

I think it depends on the kid. Some need more
supervision than others. I don't have heartburn with an
older kid who's responsible being up for a bit later
taking care of business. I have an issue with the kid
who's up for four or five hours after I've gone to bed
playing video games, surfing the internet, or goodness
knows what else.
For many people with younger kids (those with
older kids may also still have younger kids who need
more supervision), the time between the kids' bedtime
and the adult's bedtime is also couple time, which I
think is important too.
The bottom line is that as long as we live
in a world where businesses are open and activities
are scheduled and socializing outside the family
happens mostly during the "daylight" hours, the
hours late at night and the hours in before noon
aren't easily exchangeable for many people.

Best wishes,
Ericka

shinypenny wrote:

Sometimes family time might mean dragging your teens to an early
morning event involving clowns and other preschool-appropriate
entertainment. But sometimes family time might also mean getting a
babysitter for the toddler, so the rest of the family can attend an
event that starts at 8 pm.

Well, sure. But mostly, one isn't at a concert
every night! (I only dream of that...sounds expensive to
me ;-) ) Nevertheless, my older kids (for me that's
8 and 11yos) need a lot of sleep. To get up by 7am and
be decent the next day, they still really need to be
asleep by 9pm at the very latest, and their 8 and 8:30
bedtime provide the little cushion they need to make
that happen. I rather suspect that they will continue
to have relatively high sleep needs as teens, but will
really want to shift those times later. Unfortunately,
they will have to deal with obscenely early school
hours, so it will not be possible for them to shift
their schedule later on any sort of regular basis. During
the summer, unless something dramatic changes in their
interests, they will likely be involved in activities
requiring them to be up in the morning--not as early
as school, but not so late as to allow them to sleep
the entire morning away either. So, for now, an 8pm
event has to be a really special occasion for them because
we're all going to pay the next day. We do that for
Nutcracker (definitely a hellish week with them up
until 10-11pm nearly every night) because it's very
important to them. We'll do that on occasion for
a show they really want to see that doesn't have a
matinee. We won't do it for something routine. When
they're teens, I would expect that to be less of a
liability, so hopefully we'll be able to do more of
that, since I would love to take them to more concerts.

Best wishes,
Ericka

Rosalie B. wrote:
Ericka Kammerer wrote:

Joy wrote:
"Ericka Kammerer" wrote in message
...
sleeping until noon, he or she is missing out on a
significant part of family life. I think it creates
distance in the family. You don't get to do as many
things as a family because by the time one member
wakes up, it's too late. So I don't really care if
they get up at 7:30 or 8:00 on a non-school day, but
if they fall into a habit of sleeping until 11:00am
or noon because they're staying up until all hours,
I don't think that's okay. They're missing out on
a lot of family life that way.

If a teen is sleeping late, I think they probably need the sleep and
getting it would IMHO take precedence over 'family time'.

Once in a while, sure. I've got no beef about
recovering from a special event. But I don't buy that
a teen needs to sleep until noon every day of summer
break, regardless of how that might limit family time.
Yes, teen's biological clocks tend to skew later, and
I'm all for accommodating that to some degree, but
not to the extent of saying that it's okay to lose
family time for a summer because it's that important
for the teen to stay up until 3 or 4am on a regular
basis.

I also tend to think that your premise that if you allow teens to
sleep late they will miss a significant part of family time to be a
false dichotomy because I suspect that the reason for the sleeping
late is because the teen doesn't want family time rather than that
they are inadvertently missing it.

I don't think it's acceptable for teens to opt out
of family life.
..
We just do those things earlier in the day, when
we don't have cranky, tired kids to deal with. It's not
very relaxing or fun when they're sleep deprived.

If kids are cranky at the end of the day it is more likely to be
because they were NOT allowed to sleep in the morning, or because they
missed their nap.

Um, if my kids are up late, they're cranky the
next day. Generally, they don't sleep in even when
they've been up late (much though I might wish they
would on occasion). I expect that when they are teens,
they will develop the ability to sleep in to make up
for late nights, but I also expect that they will make
it a priority to spend some time with their family
along with the other things they want and need to do.

Best wishes,
Ericka

In article . com, shinypenny
says...


dragonlady wrote:
In article ,
Banty wrote:

Oh! You have the teen going about his chores, practicing his instrument,
doing
his homework, when eveyone else is in bed!

Someone - pick me off the floor! Bwaaaa haa haaaah!

May strike you as odd -- but some do. I had one daughter who frequently
did chores late at night after everyone else was in bed, and my son
would get up VERY early to do his.

Yep, my DD13 really does do this. Since the house rules are no t.v.,
phone calls, and computer after 8 pm, what else would she be doing late
at night?

Also DD13 has never needed much sleep - while I do best with *at least*
8 hours, for her, 7 hours is ideal. Although it's true now that she's
hit puberty from time to time she sleeps much longer and I don't bother
her because 1) it's so suprising! and 2) I figure she's growing or
coming down with something.

But most nights, while she might be in her bedroom, she doesn't
actually fall asleep until midnight or so. She gets up at 7 am for
school, bright-eyed and bushy-tailed, and often before the alarm clock
goes off. Some mornings she's out the door an hour early, to get
homework help in the library before school starts. Or because she woke
up early and figured she might as well head to school early to
socialize before homeroom.

We have a small house so I can hear DD13 going about her business while
I'm already in bed. From what I've heard and observed, her late-night
activities might include any of the following:

::snip list of activities::

OK, of course there will be individuals who are that disciplined and/or very
busy with constructive activities even at 13.

But I still see the downsides of how to have the family mealtimes together, etc.
Even having my son's breakfast coincide with my lunchtime has worked only
somewhat, since he doesn't eat enough at first rising to hold him over to
dinnertime even with snacks, and if I let him sleep in to whenever I can't
coordinate even that.

And - no parent wants to hear this, but how many times do we hear of parents who
are sooo sure what their teen is doing and how well they know their teen and
what a great relationship they have with their teen, to learn in distressing or
even tragic circumstances that they did not know what was going on with their
teen at all. So I think it's advisable to have the schedules sync enough to
still maintain some supervision.

Banty


--

Ericka Kammerer wrote:
..
Scenario #1 goes more like we get up and do stuff
together in the morning since that's prime time for the
toddler. After lunch, toddler naps and everyone gets down
to work. Often, the older kids have chosen to knock out
their practice early in the morning so they can use the
afternoon to play with friends, or maybe they have an
activity.

But aren't you contradicting yourself? Morning isn't for family time -
as you say here, it's "often" that your older kids are using the
morning (instead of the late evening) to pursue individual activities
apart from the family. So in reality, you haven't really bought
yourself any more family time than you would if the teen had slept in,
have you?

Personally, I think there's value in some supervision
past the stage where you're just worried about their physical
safety.

I know my DD13 would not like me intruding into her bathroom or bedroom
when she's doing the kissy-face stuff in the mirror. :-)


I think it depends on the kid. Some need more
supervision than others. I don't have heartburn with an
older kid who's responsible being up for a bit later
taking care of business. I have an issue with the kid
who's up for four or five hours after I've gone to bed
playing video games, surfing the internet, or goodness
knows what else.

Yep, that's why we have the rule no t.v., computer, or phone calls
after 8 pm. (We have no video games in our house). What else would fall
under "goodness knows what else" category?


For many people with younger kids (those with
older kids may also still have younger kids who need
more supervision), the time between the kids' bedtime
and the adult's bedtime is also couple time, which I
think is important too.

Yep, I agree. I'm like the other poster who learned that it's okay for
adults to retire to the bedroom and spend couple time in there, instead
of out in the family room. Or if the weather is nice, we'll sit out on
the back deck.

For me this past year I've been evolving in my thought process. As I
said, when the kids were younger (and realizing you still have young
ones, not just teens, in the house), I couldn't physically, mentally
relax if they weren't tucked away in bed. It's like you are "on" as a
parent, or you're "off." At some hour you just want to be off, no need
to be hovering, no need to be interacting with your kids.

But DD13, when she's up doing her business late at night, is *not*
trying to interact with us at all. She is also "off" and just wants to
do her own alone-time thing, same as us. That's what I'm now
recognizing. If DH and I are cuddling on the sofa, she respects that
and stays out of our hair. If she needs to be in the living area doing
homework, we retire to the bedroom or back deck to get out of her hair,
and she doesn't come following us (although DD11 is still at an age
where she would, if she wasn't already tucked into bed).

I guess she's just becoming an adult, so we are beginning to treat her
more and more like an adult living and sharing our house. It is
different, and I do welcome this shift. I could see both my kids living
here during college to offset costs.


The bottom line is that as long as we live
in a world where businesses are open and activities
are scheduled and socializing outside the family
happens mostly during the "daylight" hours, the
hours late at night and the hours in before noon
aren't easily exchangeable for many people.

I think part of my struggle here is that it's hard to imagine myself
doing much before noon. :-)

Even though I get up early (7 am), I telecommute so I enjoy a slow
start each and every day. No need to jump in the shower, get dressed,
rush out the door to battle a commute. And on weekends I don't think
I've ever been at the grocery store before noon either.

I really abhor the idea of getting out the door early for anything,
particularly on the weekends. I was the same way when the kids were
young too, and it came as quite a shock when they hit school-age and I
had to rustle them out the door and in the car to get to school on
time!

jen

Ericka Kammerer wrote:
shinypenny wrote:

Sometimes family time might mean dragging your teens to an early
morning event involving clowns and other preschool-appropriate
entertainment. But sometimes family time might also mean getting a
babysitter for the toddler, so the rest of the family can attend an
event that starts at 8 pm.

Well, sure. But mostly, one isn't at a concert
every night! (I only dream of that...sounds expensive to
me ;-) )


We live in an area with a lot of universities and colleges that put on
a wealth of events for a small ticket price, and often for free. There
is always something going on. Since DH is a graduate student, he has a
student ID which defrays his ticket cost. Also we are members of a list
that sends out deeply discounted, last-minute theater tickets, and
members of the local museums so we get invited to a lot of museum
exhibit openings and things like that. In addition, our local high
school puts on theater productions that are actually suprisingly very
good, and cost a lot less than broadway productions.

We take the kids out to some sort of event nearly every Saturday night,
often Sunday afternoon, and usually one weeknight too (provided the
girls are caught up with their schoolwork - they are motivated to do so
because they enjoy getting out one school night each week - we are
usually still home by 9 though). Lectures, art openings, museum events,
concerts, dance performances, theater, etc. On the weekends, we allow
them to invite one friend to tag along. One of the recent freebie hits
was seeing the guy from What Not to Wear give a lecture. Admittedly not
quite an "enrichment" activity, but the girls *loved* that!!! More
along the lines of "enrichment," they also recently enjoyed a lecture
on global warming.


Nevertheless, my older kids (for me that's
8 and 11yos) need a lot of sleep.

Yeah, my DD is 13-1/2, and there is a big difference between her and
her 11 year old sister.

To get up by 7am and
be decent the next day, they still really need to be
asleep by 9pm at the very latest, and their 8 and 8:30
bedtime provide the little cushion they need to make
that happen.

Yep, same with my DD11. I expect as she nears her sister's age, she
will need even *more* sleep than she gets now. So even if she's still
going to bed at 9, she may be tough to wake up the next morning. And as
the homework load and other stuff increase, it may be unrealistic
getting her to bed by 9... so I expect we may have the grumpy,
I-wanna-sleep-in scenes and shifted sleep schedules with her.

jen

Ericka Kammerer wrote:

Rosalie B. wrote:
Ericka Kammerer wrote:

Joy wrote:
"Ericka Kammerer" wrote in message
...
sleeping until noon, he or she is missing out on a
significant part of family life. I think it creates
distance in the family. You don't get to do as many
things as a family because by the time one member
wakes up, it's too late. So I don't really care if
they get up at 7:30 or 8:00 on a non-school day, but
if they fall into a habit of sleeping until 11:00am
or noon because they're staying up until all hours,
I don't think that's okay. They're missing out on
a lot of family life that way.

If a teen is sleeping late, I think they probably need the sleep and
getting it would IMHO take precedence over 'family time'.

Once in a while, sure. I've got no beef about
recovering from a special event. But I don't buy that

I don't mean a special event. I mean during the school year on
weekends, to get rid of a sleep deficit

a teen needs to sleep until noon every day of summer
break, regardless of how that might limit family time.
Yes, teen's biological clocks tend to skew later, and
I'm all for accommodating that to some degree, but
not to the extent of saying that it's okay to lose
family time for a summer because it's that important
for the teen to stay up until 3 or 4am on a regular
basis.

I don't think you have a realistic idea of summer for teens. There's
not that much family time IME. Either the kids are working, in which
case they are out of the house during the day, or else they're in
school, or they are on a family trip. And in any of those cases,
there's no need to stay up until 3 am or sleep until noon.

I also tend to think that your premise that if you allow teens to
sleep late they will miss a significant part of family time to be a
false dichotomy because I suspect that the reason for the sleeping
late is because the teen doesn't want family time rather than that
they are inadvertently missing it.

I don't think it's acceptable for teens to opt out
of family life.

Well you may not think it acceptable, but everyone isn't you. I don't
think you can just make that flat statement and expect everyone to
agree. I don't agree.

Teen years go from about 12 (depending on how you think of it) up to
18 or 19. During that time they need to become increasingly
independent. That may also mean independent of the family, and may
also mean the family time will be reduced. It's better that it happen
gradually IMHO. Mandated 'family time' will not work with teens - at
least not in my experience.

Marie (dragonlady)- what do you think about that?

We just do those things earlier in the day, when
we don't have cranky, tired kids to deal with. It's not
very relaxing or fun when they're sleep deprived.

If kids are cranky at the end of the day it is more likely to be
because they were NOT allowed to sleep in the morning, or because they
missed their nap.

Um, if my kids are up late, they're cranky the
next day. Generally, they don't sleep in even when

Well then why are you saying that you want to do things earlier in the
day when they are not cranky and tired?

they've been up late (much though I might wish they
would on occasion). I expect that when they are teens,
they will develop the ability to sleep in to make up
for late nights, but I also expect that they will make
it a priority to spend some time with their family
along with the other things they want and need to do.

When my kids were teens, they had family time because I was supporting
them in their various activities. I was driving them to horse shows
or swim meets or whatever activity they were involved in (even after
they could drive, I still did most of the driving). I didn't say that
they had to spend time with the family because I didn't have to. And
the times that they went to bed were set by them because they knew
when they had to get up to be ready for whatever it was that they were
doing - they chose to do it, and they wanted to be prepared, so they
did what they needed to do in order to get to the event in a timely
manner and able to do well.


grandma Rosalie