Dramatic Rise in U.S. Kids Hospitalized for Type 2 Diabetes

Jeff wrote:

"ted rosenberg" wrote in message
...
...
The "Diabetes epidemic" we keep hearing about is probably entirely
caused by changes in diagnosis, in increased aging of the
population, and in increased life span of people diagnosed early in
the progression.. yet we keep hearing that there is there
"epidemic" which seems to have been caused by McDonalds.!

It is caused by lifestyle choices, like eating too many calories and
not getting enough excercise. \ \
well another blithering idiot shows he can parrot what he heard in a
tabloid
By what do you think obesity is caused?
Much of it is caused by T2 diabetes. R2's are hyperinsulinic, and
insulin is a growth hormone, which also causes hunger.. As to the rest,
SOME is a change in definitions, and there are a lot of interesting
theories about the rest, including some interesting correlations with a
virus, but, in the end, we still don't KNOW.
People who are obese are more likely to develop diabetes than those
who aren't.
No dumb-dumb Try FACTS, not what 7you heard on the Don Imus show.
I don't really even know who Don Imus is. I assure you that I didn't
learn it there.

Instead, I learned it at Hahnemann University School of Medicine. This
is supplemented by things that I read in popular press, like the New
York Times Science Times as well as publications for scientists, like
Science magazine.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5304a4.htm
Gee, this cite shows an INCREASE in exercise, not a decrease.

as to Hahnemann - we get LOTS of "homeopathic"scammers on the news
groups. I doubt we need more.. In the 20's "dilute tinctures" were
merely worthless. the alternatives were probably worse. He used to come
to my mother's house on the trolley (he couldn't drive a car) to treat
her appendicitis with his tinctures. Today we have antibiotics and REAL
medicines.
There is a large proportion of people who are obese now than ever
before, inclduing kids.
Possible, but again you show your lack of knowledge of statistics -
keep parroting

There is a higher proportion of overweight kids than when I was in
middle school, 30 years ago.
and you have proof??

Although this is just an observation I made, this is consistant with
what the folks at the CDC say:

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5434a3.htm

Again, try READING the report, not just the headlines. In a telephone
call, there was an increase in children who REPORT that a doctor TO:
THEM that they were overweight. NOT an increase in obese children.
Now, there may have been an increase, there ,may have been a HUGE
increase, but the methodology SUCKS.
1) What is considered overweight now?
2) What was considered overweight then?
3) What was the protocol for telling children that they were overweight?
4) What was the percentage of children even WEIGHED by a physician
during the study period
5) Is this data compared by actual age, or only by tranche?
6) What is the breakdown by racial/ethnic grouping?
I could go on..
A few years ago I did a very rough analysis which showed that we
should have gotten about a 300% increase in diagnosed diabetes in
the last 20 years, and posted it to MHD. The Medicare actuaries
are somewhat on the ball here, predicting continued increases due,
in large part, to successful treatment !! For the first time in
history, we see major decreases in SENIOR mortality, Until now, we
tended to see small INCREASES in senior mortality as a result of
major decreases in non-senior mortality.

I also see many an article which says "we see children now who are
T2's, 30 years ago there were NONE", when OF COURSE there were
plenty 30 years ago, just undiagnosed!. If someone were to say "we
don't KNOW how many there were 30 years ago, but based upon data
for the last FIVE years, we seem to be getting [increase]
[decrease] [consistent] numbers - THAT I would believe. We have
some anecdotes from you where you think that actual incidence of T2
in children is increasing, but just anecdotes, I'd sure like to see
real numbers!

I don't have a CLUE what the facts are, I just have trouble with
the obviously inaccurate statements I see all the time.

Considering that there are more obese teens and kids than ever
before, and obesity is definitely a cause of diabetes, it is
extremely likely that there is a real rise in the number of teens
who are diabetic.

No stupid

Why don't you provide evidence that I am wrong.
I don't have to "prove you wrong". You made unsupported and
unsupportable statements without any facts. YOU should provide FACTS,
NOT CRAP.

Calling me "stupid" doesn't cut it (at least after 2nd grade).

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5304a4.htm

Gee, another cite which looks SO nice - to bad it provides NO support
for your assertion's,

In small words that possibly can be understood
1) Obesity CORRELATES with diabetes
2) T2 diabetes CAUSES obesity
3) The increase in DIAGNOSED diabetics is completely explainable with NO
reference too obesity

look up "William of Ockham" yes, Ockham

Either way, teens and kids would benefit if they ate a healthier
diet (one in which McDonalds is not a common part of) and got more
exercise (turning off the TV, computer, and video games so that
they're are on a max of 2 hours a day, combined is a good start, IMHO).

You are welcome to that opinion - as it is an opinion
I do believe that you're correct when you say that kids were under
diagnosed with diabetes in the past. However, I believe that there
is a significantly larger proportion of teens with type II diabetes
today, because of diet and lack of exercise.

Jeff
WHY? - what facts do you have? keep repeating a falsehood does not
make it so.

First, I made it perfectly clear that this was my opinion.

Second, my opinion is backed by facts, as reported by the US CDC in
their MMWR.

Oh, and I suppose you actually READ MMWR. I no longer have a
subscription, but I did for many years
If you do, please give me a valid citation. The stuff you have cited so
far does NOT support your statement. (HINT: MMWR is a good source of
some simple data, but NOT where you find the stuff you might be looking for)
You are clueless as to relative diet, or even to relative exercise.
I disagree.
again - how about some worthwhile citations?

Part of the problem is that there ISN'T good data.
However, one thing I don't understand is your rather rude attack
against me.

You would do much better by responding with evidence that backs your
claim that with your venom, IMHO.

Have a lovely day,

Jeff
You obviously didn't read my original post - you just parroted some
stuff you read in the tabloids.

I do not suffer fools, and I say so - rudely. and loudly. Probably a
poor habit, but it is what I do. I like supportable facts. I do NOT
have an agenda. It is QUITE possible that the whole world is obese, but
most of the assertions we see as to what and why are unsupported, or,
often, clearly WRONG.. Most of your statements were also clearly wrong.

"ted rosenberg" wrote in message
...
Jeff wrote:

"ted rosenberg" wrote in message
...
...
The "Diabetes epidemic" we keep hearing about is probably entirely
caused by changes in diagnosis, in increased aging of the population,
and in increased life span of people diagnosed early in the
progression.. yet we keep hearing that there is there "epidemic" which
seems to have been caused by McDonalds.!

It is caused by lifestyle choices, like eating too many calories and
not getting enough excercise. \ \
well another blithering idiot shows he can parrot what he heard in a
tabloid
By what do you think obesity is caused?
Much of it is caused by T2 diabetes. R2's are hyperinsulinic, and insulin
is a growth hormone, which also causes hunger.. As to the rest, SOME is a
change in definitions, and there are a lot of interesting theories about
the rest, including some interesting correlations with a virus, but, in
the end, we still don't KNOW.

Actually, there are many factors that cause obesity. Changes in diet,
activity levels, poverty ... these are all related to changes in the obesity
rates.

People who are obese are more likely to develop diabetes than those who
aren't.
No dumb-dumb Try FACTS, not what 7you heard on the Don Imus show.
I don't really even know who Don Imus is. I assure you that I didn't
learn it there.

Instead, I learned it at Hahnemann University School of Medicine. This is
supplemented by things that I read in popular press, like the New York
Times Science Times as well as publications for scientists, like Science
magazine.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5304a4.htm
Gee, this cite shows an INCREASE in exercise, not a decrease.
as to Hahnemann - we get LOTS of "homeopathic"scammers on the news groups.
I doubt we need more.. In the 20's "dilute tinctures" were merely
worthless. the alternatives were probably worse. He used to come to my
mother's house on the trolley (he couldn't drive a car) to treat her
appendicitis with his tinctures. Today we have antibiotics and REAL
medicines.

Hahnemann University had an allopathic medical school. The University was
located in Philadelphia PA (just up from city hall). In the 90s it merged
with the Medical College of PA. Later, the whole thing became the Drexel
University College of Medicine.

While it originally was a homeopathic medical school, when I was there, it
was totally allopathic.

There is a large proportion of people who are obese now than ever
before, inclduing kids.
Possible, but again you show your lack of knowledge of statistics - keep
parroting

There is a higher proportion of overweight kids than when I was in middle
school, 30 years ago.
and you have proof??

Although this is just an observation I made, this is consistant with what
the folks at the CDC say:

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5434a3.htm

Again, try READING the report, not just the headlines. In a telephone
call, there was an increase in children who REPORT that a doctor TO: THEM
that they were overweight. NOT an increase in obese children. Now, there
may have been an increase, there ,may have been a HUGE increase, but the
methodology SUCKS.
1) What is considered overweight now?
2) What was considered overweight then?
3) What was the protocol for telling children that they were overweight?
4) What was the percentage of children even WEIGHED by a physician during
the study period
5) Is this data compared by actual age, or only by tranche?
6) What is the breakdown by racial/ethnic grouping?
I could go on..
A few years ago I did a very rough analysis which showed that we
should have gotten about a 300% increase in diagnosed diabetes in the
last 20 years, and posted it to MHD. The Medicare actuaries are
somewhat on the ball here, predicting continued increases due, in
large part, to successful treatment !! For the first time in history,
we see major decreases in SENIOR mortality, Until now, we tended to
see small INCREASES in senior mortality as a result of major decreases
in non-senior mortality.

I also see many an article which says "we see children now who are
T2's, 30 years ago there were NONE", when OF COURSE there were plenty
30 years ago, just undiagnosed!. If someone were to say "we don't
KNOW how many there were 30 years ago, but based upon data for the
last FIVE years, we seem to be getting [increase] [decrease]
[consistent] numbers - THAT I would believe. We have some anecdotes
from you where you think that actual incidence of T2 in children is
increasing, but just anecdotes, I'd sure like to see real numbers!

I don't have a CLUE what the facts are, I just have trouble with the
obviously inaccurate statements I see all the time.

Considering that there are more obese teens and kids than ever before,
and obesity is definitely a cause of diabetes, it is extremely likely
that there is a real rise in the number of teens who are diabetic.

No stupid

Why don't you provide evidence that I am wrong.
I don't have to "prove you wrong". You made unsupported and unsupportable
statements without any facts. YOU should provide FACTS, NOT CRAP.

Calling me "stupid" doesn't cut it (at least after 2nd grade).

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5304a4.htm

Gee, another cite which looks SO nice - to bad it provides NO support for
your assertion's,

In small words that possibly can be understood
1) Obesity CORRELATES with diabetes
2) T2 diabetes CAUSES obesity
3) The increase in DIAGNOSED diabetics is completely explainable with NO
reference too obesity

Please tell us, then, what is causing the increased rates of T2 diabetes.

look up "William of Ockham" yes, Ockham

I am quite aware of Ockham's razor. Thanks.

Either way, teens and kids would benefit if they ate a healthier diet
(one in which McDonalds is not a common part of) and got more exercise
(turning off the TV, computer, and video games so that they're are on a
max of 2 hours a day, combined is a good start, IMHO).

You are welcome to that opinion - as it is an opinion
I do believe that you're correct when you say that kids were under
diagnosed with diabetes in the past. However, I believe that there is a
significantly larger proportion of teens with type II diabetes today,
because of diet and lack of exercise.

Jeff
WHY? - what facts do you have? keep repeating a falsehood does not make
it so.

First, I made it perfectly clear that this was my opinion.

Second, my opinion is backed by facts, as reported by the US CDC in their
MMWR.

Oh, and I suppose you actually READ MMWR. I no longer have a
subscription, but I did for many years
If you do, please give me a valid citation. The stuff you have cited so
far does NOT support your statement. (HINT: MMWR is a good source of some
simple data, but NOT where you find the stuff you might be looking for)
You are clueless as to relative diet, or even to relative exercise.
I disagree.
again - how about some worthwhile citations?

Part of the problem is that there ISN'T good data.
However, one thing I don't understand is your rather rude attack against
me.

You would do much better by responding with evidence that backs your
claim that with your venom, IMHO.

Have a lovely day,

Jeff
You obviously didn't read my original post - you just parroted some stuff
you read in the tabloids.

I rarely read tabloids. Unless you consider Science Magazine a tabloid.

I do not suffer fools, and I say so - rudely. and loudly.

There is no excuse for you to be rude.

Probably a poor habit, but it is what I do. I like supportable facts. I
do NOT have an agenda.

From your posts, I see an agenda. Both in the past and now. Perhaps there
isn't one. But that is what I perceive.

It is QUITE possible that the whole world is obese, but most of the
assertions we see as to what and why are unsupported, or, often, clearly
WRONG.. Most of your statements were also clearly wrong.

I totally disagree.

For example, according to the CDC, there is an increase in obesity for all
kids over 2 years old:

http://www.cdc.gov/nccdphp/dnpa/obesity/index.htm And adults, too.

Please stop behaving like you do.

You may have a lot to add. However, when you are so acidic, your message is
lost.

Jeff

Jeff wrote:
snip
It is QUITE possible that the whole world is obese, but most of the
assertions we see as to what and why are unsupported, or, often,
clearly WRONG.. Most of your statements were also clearly wrong.

I totally disagree.

For example, according to the CDC, there is an increase in obesity for
all kids over 2 years old:

http://www.cdc.gov/nccdphp/dnpa/obesity/index.htm And adults, too.

Please stop behaving like you do.

You may have a lot to add. However, when you are so acidic, your
message is lost.

Jeff

AH, at last a fairly coherent article which gives some rough data
supporting increase in obesity. It still has a LOT of obvious flaws
1) the supporting data isn't very good
2) "Overweight" is defined as 95th %tile. As such, is CAN'T increase at
the rates shown. I didn't invent that definition, it is just another
example of sloppy methodology.

My daughter used to have a tag line "over 48.7% of all children read
below average". People ARGUED with her about it !!

Interesting regional distribution -WHY ??? the disease theory of
obesity looks better and better.

I may note the excellent fact that they admit that BMI is not a measure
of obesity, but that it correlates fairly well..

I am overweight (by any measure). Since I got my insulin under control,
I dropped 60 pounds. BUT, if I lose ALL my excess fat, I will still have
an "obese" BMI. I really do have heavy bones, a barrel chest and neck,
and very short muscular arms and legs. Buying shirts is a real pain
..

As to the increase in diagnosed diabetics
1) The average age of population is increasing
2) BG testing is now fairly routine
3) As a practical matter, 2-3 YEARS with a BG of 250 or more was the
definition of "diabetic" now it is ONE reading of 126
4) diagnosed diabetics LIVE longer than undiagnosed diabetics
5) We are now diagnosing T2 in children - they used to be mainly
undiagnosed, or, if bad enough, T1

Adult onset T1's were diagnosed as T2's. I know a few. After a short
unsuccessful aattempt at orals, they ended up in the hospital, where
they went on Insulin.

It is QUITE possible that the whole world is obese, but most of the
assertions we see as to what and why are unsupported, or, often, clearly
WRONG.. Most of your statements were also clearly wrong.

I totally disagree.

For example, according to the CDC, there is an increase in obesity for
all
kids over 2 years old:

http://www.cdc.gov/nccdphp/dnpa/obesity/index.htm And adults, too.


Here is a nice visual aid showing just how large the problem is ...
http://health.msn.com/reports/obesity/default.aspx

Roman Bystrianyk wrote:
It is QUITE possible that the whole world is obese, but most of the
assertions we see as to what and why are unsupported, or, often, clearly
WRONG.. Most of your statements were also clearly wrong.


I totally disagree.

For example, according to the CDC, there is an increase in obesity for
all
kids over 2 years old:

http://www.cdc.gov/nccdphp/dnpa/obesity/index.htm And adults, too.


Here is a nice visual aid showing just how large the problem is ...
http://health.msn.com/reports/obesity/default.aspx


Yes twit, and quoting the badly flawed NHANES simply shows that you
can't count.

\It also shows that you didn't read either the original post, or most of
the thread. Your respoonse has nothing to do with the quote you took
out of context

In misc.health.diabetes Jeff wrote:

"ted rosenberg" wrote in message
...
...
The "Diabetes epidemic" we keep hearing about is probably entirely
caused by changes in diagnosis, in increased aging of the population,
and in increased life span of people diagnosed early in the
progression.. yet we keep hearing that there is there "epidemic" which
seems to have been caused by McDonalds.!

It is caused by lifestyle choices, like eating too many calories and not
getting enough excercise. \
\
well another blithering idiot shows he can parrot what he heard in a
tabloid

By what do you think obesity is caused?

People who are obese are more likely to develop diabetes than those who
aren't.
No dumb-dumb Try FACTS, not what 7you heard on the Don Imus show.

I don't really even know who Don Imus is. I assure you that I didn't learn
it there.

Instead, I learned it at Hahnemann University School of Medicine. This is
supplemented by things that I read in popular press, like the New York Times
Science Times as well as publications for scientists, like Science magazine.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5304a4.htm

There is a large proportion of people who are obese now than ever before,
inclduing kids.
Possible, but again you show your lack of knowledge of statistics - keep
parroting

There is a higher proportion of overweight kids than when I was in middle
school, 30 years ago.

When I was at school 50 years ago it was only in the occasional class
that there was a kid fat enough that the crueller kids could jeer at
their size. IIRC it was about one class in 3-5, which suggests roughly
one in a hundred. Now's there's at least a few in every class.

It's quite scary to look at old photographs of schoolkids from decades
ago. The difference from today's schoolkids is dramatic, and not just
in the proportions of those you might call overweight. There's a
general chubbiness now, to such an extent that those kids from decades
ago look very skinny. It looks like a shift in fatness of the entire
population, not just those who could be called overweight.

I remember all my fellow schoolkids being weighed and measured by
visiting medical teams for statistical purposes a few times while we
were at school, so there ought to be figures avaiable.

--
Chris Malcolm DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

Please stop behaving like you do.

You may have a lot to add. However, when you are so acidic, your message is
lost.

Jeff

I find it unfortunate that certain people think they somehow make a
better point by calling people "dumb-dumb", "idiot", "twit", etc. -
it's sad to see the extent of this behavior particularly on the
Internet where a person's anonymous status empowers them to express
their anger in such a juvenile manner. I find engaging such people
adds nothing to any knowledge but only fuels the fire of their need to
belittle others in order to build their self-esteem. Enjoy your day.

Roman