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Paddle by proxy
The real problem with paddling in American schools isn't so much the
paddling as who does it. Teachers in America no longer come from the family next door. Administrators are even more remote. Even in states that permit paddling, parents know about as much about designated paddlers in their child's school as they do about the Wal-Mart employee who sells their kid a CD. Often, there is about the same level of trust when it comes to paddling their kid. Almost all certified teachers still in the classroom today have been indoctrinated in the virtues of no-spank. It is a rite of passage, a quasi-religious catechism to be recited as if one is an eternal brainwashed neophyte not to be trusted with any other thoughts. The bright ones figure out that no-spank is a crock! Despite the impersonal nature of American public education, some good teachers are able to build a rapport with parents. Not surprisingly, many are both experienced teachers with solid educational credentials as well as functional parents. As gifted communicators, they are equally at ease talking to parents and students as they are to administrators and other teachers. One disciplinary strategy employed by experienced parent-teachers is paddle by proxy. In addition to phone calls and other contacts, these teachers will sometimes have the classroom miscreant participate in a traditional parent-teacher conference. Truly erudite teachers get the kid to explain the chronic and disruptive behavior problem to the parent during the conference. Even the most reluctant parent realized at that point it is unlikely that the teacher is making things up or picking on her poor innocent child. As the conference proceeds, the teacher explains the constraints placed on her by the school board as well as the limitations of the methods that she is permitted to use in the timeframe in which she has to use them during the school day. While students are quite aware of the various dead ends in public school discipline, parents are frequently woefully ignorant. As the conference proceeds, the teacher shifts gears. She stops talking like a know-it-all and starts talking like a parent. Sometimes directly, at other times circuitously, the teacher nudges the parent toward the idea of paddling the kid. Surprisingly, after some initial shock, the idea of a spanking is not always to which the kid objects once the parent and teacher come to an agreement. For some children it may be the first time in their lives that 2 adults agreed on anything concerning them! Although there is no set formula for these things, by the time the teacher finishes, all participants in the conference have reached an understanding on the state of affairs. One retired teacher and her family run a website that teaches parents both how to spank and how to defend themselves against the feminist-dominated child welfare Schutzstaffel. Another former teacher told about teaching a type of spanking known as *layer cake* to parents of elementary age students. Layer cake is a series of mini-spankings separated by the parent reasoning with the child. A third teacher went public. She told a reporter during an interview that she had discovered that most of her school's troublemakers were kids who were not spanked. This teacher recommended parents spank kids when they misbehave at school. Another elementary school teacher admitted that, despite her childhood education training and spending a small fortune on counselors, she finally solved her daughters' behavioral challenges by explicitly following the directions printed on a souvenir paddle she bought on a lark while vacationing. Although peers at first thought she had lost her mind, the teacher recommended that other parents follow her example! These teachers represent a quiet rebellion of experienced teachers, many of whom are parents, that is undermining noisy no-spank rhetoric that is often delivered by childless idealists or those still haunted by miserable childhood memories. Often they are lead teachers and mentor teachers on whom schools depend for organizational memory and internal stability. Given the current state of affairs in the classroom, especially given the high rate of turnover among new teachers unprepared to survive the disaster of the public school classroom and the desperate need for competent classroom management, paddle by proxy may be the new trend in school discipline. |
#2
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Paddle by proxy
Opinions wrote:
The real problem with paddling in American schools isn't so much the paddling as who does it. Teachers in America no longer come from the family next door. Administrators are even more remote. Just how far back do you wish to go? When we built the first city with a school in it, teachers no longer came from the family next door. You seem to be advocating for a return to the one room schoolhouse, from Little House on The Prairie. Even in states that permit paddling, parents know about as much about designated paddlers in their child's school as they do about the Wal-Mart employee who sells their kid a CD. Often, there is about the same level of trust when it comes to paddling their kid. I won't tell you how long ago I went to grade school, but I assure you it was a very long time ago, and in a rural area. My parents, very involved at that, never knew anyone outside the schoolhouse who worked in it. Almost all certified teachers still in the classroom today have been indoctrinated in the virtues of no-spank. Absolutely. I believe it's even discussed quite a bit in teacher college instruction. It is a rite of passage, a quasi-religious catechism to be recited as if one is an eternal brainwashed neophyte not to be trusted with any other thoughts. The bright ones figure out that no-spank is a crock! Quite the opposite is true. Those are the compulsives, themselves raised in the abusive child hating atmosphere of such families and more rarely now, such schools. Despite the impersonal nature of American public education, some good teachers are able to build a rapport with parents. Not surprisingly, many are both experienced teachers with solid educational credentials as well as functional parents. As gifted communicators, they are equally at ease talking to parents and students as they are to administrators and other teachers. And this equates to them being spanking and paddling advocates how again? One disciplinary strategy employed by experienced parent-teachers is paddle by proxy. In addition to phone calls and other contacts, these teachers will sometimes have the classroom miscreant participate in a traditional parent-teacher conference. Please provide some proofs for this sad claim. I'm sure it exists in some places, but it is not proven to be an effective teaching method. Truly erudite teachers get the kid to explain the chronic and disruptive behavior problem to the parent during the conference. Even the most reluctant parent realized at that point it is unlikely that the teacher is making things up or picking on her poor innocent child. And there is a 90% chance that this child is already much experienced in being spanked at home, and the teacher is trying to educate the parent (since it's cause for failing in school and behavior problems disrupting his classroom) to other ways to parent the child for better behavior. As the conference proceeds, the teacher explains the constraints placed on her by the school board as well as the limitations of the methods that she is permitted to use in the timeframe in which she has to use them during the school day. While students are quite aware of the various dead ends in public school discipline, parents are frequently woefully ignorant. No they aren't. Not if they read the student manual all schools send home with the child in the first day or so. I believe, in fact, they are more often mailed these days. As the conference proceeds, the teacher shifts gears. She stops talking like a know-it-all and starts talking like a parent. Sometimes directly, at other times circuitously, the teacher nudges the parent toward the idea of paddling the kid. You mean the rare teacher attempts to circumvent his own education and the experience that he has from the classroom where non-punitive non painful and humiliating methods work? You do understand that bad classroom behavior is a problem in paddling states, and where it is culturally more acceptable and frequent to spank children, no? Where it isn't done as much, in fact, the teacher finds that the very children they have the most problems with ARE SPANKED AT HOME. The unspanked consistently misbehaving child is an extreme rarity. Given that it would be only about 10% of any large body of children, and even less in communities where spanking is more frequent in the population, the "erudite" teacher knows that something OTHER than how a child is punished is likely involved. Sick child maybe? Or a learning disability? A natural difference in developmental progress as it varies from child to child normally? "Erudite" teachers, real ones, without severe mental problems such as compulsions to go to pain and humiliation in child rearing and teaching, tend to go through a list of possibilities before they light on "bad child, deliberately defying me, I MUST HIT." Trust me on this. I have "erudite" teachers in my family that rarely have problem with behavior in the classroom and report to me when I discuss this with them, and I do, that the child with the behavior problem is ALWAYS a child that has been spanked at home. And the less spanking the less behavior problems, and the child with NO at home spanking has NONE in these classrooms of my relatives. Which is what "erudite" teachers everywhere in this land tend to find, if they are looking...and they are, because they are "erudite" not a figment of your imagination. 0:- Surprisingly, after some initial shock, the idea of a spanking is not always to which the kid objects once the parent and teacher come to an agreement. For some children it may be the first time in their lives that 2 adults agreed on anything concerning them! Observer, babbling becomes you. Are you going to get to the point? Although there is no set formula for these things, by the time the teacher finishes, all participants in the conference have reached an understanding on the state of affairs. Sure they have. If the parents are non-spankers, at best only a ten percent chance, and their child has actually misbehaved, at best a .01% chance if even that, they all know with the exception of the "erudite" teacher that the teacher is gone of his rocker and is to be avoided and reported to his principal. One retired teacher and her family run a website that teaches parents both how to spank and how to defend themselves against the feminist-dominated child welfare Schutzstaffel. And who might the be, Observer? The Pearls that advocate switching children as young as two months, pulling their hair if the bite during nursing at even younger ages and similar savagery? Another former teacher told about teaching a type of spanking known as *layer cake* to parents of elementary age students. Layer cake is a series of mini-spankings separated by the parent reasoning with the child. I hope the child is older than 6, as they cannot equate cause and effect accurately before that time as they do not have sufficient brain development until seven and beyond, and in fact need a few years of practice and experience even then to increase abstract reasoning accuracy. Ask an "erudite" teacher. They are aware of this. A third teacher went public. She told a reporter during an interview that she had discovered that most of her school's troublemakers were kids who were not spanked. This teacher recommended parents spank kids when they misbehave at school. Oh. Please provide a link to this information. You have to be getting it somewhere rather than out your butt. Though I could be wrong. I've heard "teachers" make such claims before. And even cops, and upon closer examination of the very children they were discussing it was discovered they lied. The children WERE in fact spanked at home. Another elementary school teacher admitted that, despite her childhood education training and spending a small fortune on counselors, she finally solved her daughters' behavioral challenges by explicitly following the directions printed on a souvenir paddle she bought on a lark while vacationing. Although peers at first thought she had lost her mind, the teacher recommended that other parents follow her example! She had lost her mind, and her child. "Solved her daughter's behavioral challenges" is a highly subjective commentary. She may have, and much more likely, added to the long term outcomes and done great harm in that way. Simply "behaving" as in "complying" is only a partial and highly limited solution. My thought is that this person likely had other methods of parenting that set up resistance and avoidance in the child. I've certainly seen it before. These teachers represent a quiet rebellion of experienced teachers, many of whom are parents, that is undermining noisy no-spank rhetoric that is often delivered by childless idealists or those still haunted by miserable childhood memories. Often they are lead teachers and mentor teachers on whom schools depend for organizational memory and internal stability. In other words, you are pretending that paddling is on it's way back in schoolrooms and that the rest of the country that as yet doesn't, will be treated to the academic and behavioral victories common to those states that now do paddle. Am I correct? Given the current state of affairs in the classroom, Which is? Which states? Who paddles? What does the academic accomplishment look like? How much violent crime is present? How much acting out in classroom goes on? And again, don't forget, give us a state by state comparison. especially given the high rate of turnover among new teachers unprepared to survive the disaster of the public school classroom and the desperate need for competent classroom management, paddle by proxy may be the new trend in school discipline. Teacher turnover high? Shall we see what the actual reasons are, rather than your lies and misinformation? Sure, why not. I've got a few minutes to kill before I go back to organizing my library shelves. Hereyahgo: http://tinyurl.com/939kc ..private school references snipped, though it's about pay there too...... CNN.com In-Depth Specials - Teachers: low pay, low morale, high ... Teachers: low pay, low morale, high turnover. graphic. By Christy Oglesby CNN. (CNN) -- It's a bad combination: the worst school, the worst students and the http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/sch...f.effects.html - 28k - Teachers.Net - TEACHERS.NET GAZETTE - Teachers.Net Gazette ... In his professional analysis of teacher turnover and resulting teacher . teachers. "Schools need to address the organizational sources of low teacher ...teachers.net/gazette/DEC01/letter010.html - 26k - Cached - Similar pages kingcountyjournal.com - Teacher turnover causing concern Teacher turnover causing concern. 2005-03-26 by Jamie Swift ... Riley offered several possible explanations for the low retention rate, including the ... http://www.kingcountyjournal.com/sit...ry/html/202408 - 26k - Cached - Similar pages ECS Education Policy Issue Site: Teaching Quality--Recruitment ... .... and innovative strategies such as building low-rent housing for teachers or, .... Another factor that contributes significantly to teacher turnover and ... http://www.ecs.org/html/issue.asp?is...&subIssueID=65 - 19k - Cached - Similar pages [PDF] NEWS RELEASE CENTER SAYS SHORTAGE OF TEACHERS AN IMPENDING CRISIS ... File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML the Leandro case to help low-wealth districts. Teacher Turnover. Nearly one in three new teachers leaves the profession after three years on the job, ... www.nccppr.org/Teachershortage.pdf - Similar pages National Association of Secondary School Principals. NASSP ... .... they do not also address the organizational sources of low teacher retention. .... One of the most important findings has been that teacher turnover is ... http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl...06/ai_n9095340 - 30k - Cached - Similar pages [PDF] OLICY RIEF File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML teacher turnover in the Hawai‘i DOE is $4021974. This estimate is low in that it .... beginning teacher salary and the low estimate of. teacher turnover. ... http://www.hawaii.edu/hepc/pdf/Brief...erTurnover.pdf - Similar pages There's the sources and here's what we get; ""First-year teachers get placed in the most-difficult classrooms and most-difficult schools, and we have to stop doing that to them," said Gayla Hudson, a former teacher and director of teacher quality for the National Education Association, the country's oldest education organization. "I was one of those (new) teachers who was placed in the classroom that other teachers feared."" ""You can't just teach English or teach math anymore," Horwitz said. "You have to be able to teach math and special ed and be a nurse and deal with children who have emotional problems who act out in class." And while teachers' responsibilities are multiplying, their salaries are not. The average salary increase for teachers in 2000 was the lowest in four decades, according to an AFT survey. Last year, the average national teacher salary was $41,820 -- 3.2 percent more than it was in 1999. It failed to keep pace with the rate of inflation of 3.4 percent. " The articles cited go on and on and on with this and similar themes. More responsibility, less administrative support, assignments to classrooms full of parent brutalized children... But, let's see what teachers actually say about turnover and "lack of discipline" the code words for, "I want to beat the tar out them but the school won't let me." Gosh, in all my searchers, article after article about turnover and no mention of "discipline problems." But were I can find them, what do they actually say? I hope I won't be considered or accused of racist leanings in posting the following, but we know that culturally black families tend to spank more than white families. Just a given. So were are the school discipline problems noted to be greater? "teacher stress and burnout" "Lack of administrative support is a category that includes but is not limited to the following teacher perceptions: principals are “not supportive” if they do not handle discipline to the teachers’ liking; do not understand the instructional program the teachers are trying to offer; do not provide the time and resources the teachers believe necessary; do not value teachers’ opinions or involve them sufficiently in decision making; do not support them in disputes with parents; or fail to listen to their problems and suggestions. " But of course it doesn't say WHAT those discipline likings ARE. It could be the teacher does NOT want the child expelled (a stupid 'punishment' if ever there was one.) And like all the other article, it's only one of the many reasons given. Here's an interesting one: "In a study of teachers in urban secondary schools students’ lack of discipline and motivation was the primary source of teacher stress and the most significant predictor of burnout(Gonzalez 1997)." Now tell me, Observer, would you guess that spanking in communities where "urban" schools are located would be more likely to be the case at home, or not? In other words, are not spanked children bringing these behavioral problems with them? My teacher relatives see two interesting phenomena. The child who misbehaves at school while behaving well at home, and the one that behaves well at school, but does not at home. The one characteristic shared by both kinds of children and families, is that the children are spanked at home, but not at school. Kind of gives one a new perspective on how spanking works given the differences in children. Some will rebel and some will hide it. But both, in these examples "misbehaved" somewhere. Teachers are very aware of this phenomena, and the "erudite" ones....R R R ...know exactly the cause. I suppose they chuckle at the lesson that is lost to the parent that has the misbehavior at home and yet they see none in school, where SPANKING IS PROHIBITED and there is a greater tendency to be supportive and less punitive overall. And the of course are concerned about classroom misbehavior and the sick " compliance out of fear " at home and what that can well be doing to the child mental health wise. I have pages and pages of search results I could spend time going through, but I know what it's going to show, as I've looked at such for many years. I think I'll get back to my books now and sorting and cleaning and boxing up some I am getting rid of. Want some? Might find one that supported your arguments for the savagery of brutalizing children and calling it "discipline." NOT! 0:- |
#3
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Paddle by proxy
Opinions wrote: The real problem with paddling in American schools isn't so much the paddling as who does it. Teachers in America no longer come from the family next door. Administrators are even more remote. What an absurd collection of drivel! It's okay for the family next door to hit kids, but not more remote individuals! (snip) Almost all certified teachers still in the classroom today have been indoctrinated in the virtues of no-spank. It is a rite of passage, a quasi-religious catechism to be recited as if one is an eternal brainwashed neophyte not to be trusted with any other thoughts. The bright ones figure out that no-spank is a crock! The bright ones know how children best learn, grow, and develop. They are able to choose guidance and discipline strategies that are compatible with this knowledge. The less than bright ones use the simplistic and damaging method of hitting children in the name of discipline because they do not employ more complex thinking that would result in appropriate and effective discipline practices that address both long and short term goals for children. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that children imitate their role models. Hitting models violence. States that allow school paddling have some of the lowest test scores in the nation, along with the highest rates of violence. The whole paddle by proxy junk is contained below. I advise readers to look at the ridiculousness and fallacy of this post. LaVonne Despite the impersonal nature of American public education, some good teachers are able to build a rapport with parents. Not surprisingly, many are both experienced teachers with solid educational credentials as well as functional parents. As gifted communicators, they are equally at ease talking to parents and students as they are to administrators and other teachers. One disciplinary strategy employed by experienced parent-teachers is paddle by proxy. In addition to phone calls and other contacts, these teachers will sometimes have the classroom miscreant participate in a traditional parent-teacher conference. Truly erudite teachers get the kid to explain the chronic and disruptive behavior problem to the parent during the conference. Even the most reluctant parent realized at that point it is unlikely that the teacher is making things up or picking on her poor innocent child. As the conference proceeds, the teacher explains the constraints placed on her by the school board as well as the limitations of the methods that she is permitted to use in the timeframe in which she has to use them during the school day. While students are quite aware of the various dead ends in public school discipline, parents are frequently woefully ignorant. As the conference proceeds, the teacher shifts gears. She stops talking like a know-it-all and starts talking like a parent. Sometimes directly, at other times circuitously, the teacher nudges the parent toward the idea of paddling the kid. Surprisingly, after some initial shock, the idea of a spanking is not always to which the kid objects once the parent and teacher come to an agreement. For some children it may be the first time in their lives that 2 adults agreed on anything concerning them! Although there is no set formula for these things, by the time the teacher finishes, all participants in the conference have reached an understanding on the state of affairs. One retired teacher and her family run a website that teaches parents both how to spank and how to defend themselves against the feminist-dominated child welfare Schutzstaffel. Another former teacher told about teaching a type of spanking known as *layer cake* to parents of elementary age students. Layer cake is a series of mini-spankings separated by the parent reasoning with the child. A third teacher went public. She told a reporter during an interview that she had discovered that most of her school's troublemakers were kids who were not spanked. This teacher recommended parents spank kids when they misbehave at school. Another elementary school teacher admitted that, despite her childhood education training and spending a small fortune on counselors, she finally solved her daughters' behavioral challenges by explicitly following the directions printed on a souvenir paddle she bought on a lark while vacationing. Although peers at first thought she had lost her mind, the teacher recommended that other parents follow her example! These teachers represent a quiet rebellion of experienced teachers, many of whom are parents, that is undermining noisy no-spank rhetoric that is often delivered by childless idealists or those still haunted by miserable childhood memories. Often they are lead teachers and mentor teachers on whom schools depend for organizational memory and internal stability. Given the current state of affairs in the classroom, especially given the high rate of turnover among new teachers unprepared to survive the disaster of the public school classroom and the desperate need for competent classroom management, paddle by proxy may be the new trend in school discipline. |
#4
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Paddle by proxy
On Thu, 1 Dec 2005, Carlson LaVonne wrote:
The bright ones know how children best learn, grow, and develop. They are able to choose guidance and discipline strategies that are compatible with this knowledge. The less than bright ones use the simplistic and damaging method of hitting children in the name of discipline because they do not employ more complex thinking that would result in appropriate and effective discipline practices that address both long and short term goals for children. How about your parents, Lavonne? Are you saying that they were "less than bright"? ;-) Doan |
#5
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Paddle by proxy
LaVonne must have had a miserable childhood. She comes off as an
extremely rigid person spouting the party line of the educational establishment as if were a religious catechism for which no alternative exists. She has the online persona of a drill sergeant. More interestingly, she never takes the time to offer complete explanations. LaVonne's apparent style of teaching is known in higher academic circles as the *hide the salami* method. Consistent with many absolutely rotten instructors, her contributions to this newsgroup suggest that she is high on expectations and low in support. I cannot help but wonder how long LaVonne would actually survive in public schools teaching remedial reading or basic grammar construction to children of color in the Mississippi Delta or to sons of the Lakota in the *school-to-prison pipeline* of Winner, South Dakota. How would her formal evaluations by school principals in those districts actually read in light of authenticated student achievement? Sadly, for America's children, LaVonne's level of rigidity has invited interventions that range from No Child Left Behind mandated testing to the Junkyard Prophet band's *dog and pony* show. Doan wrote: On Thu, 1 Dec 2005, Carlson LaVonne wrote: The bright ones know how children best learn, grow, and develop. They are able to choose guidance and discipline strategies that are compatible with this knowledge. The less than bright ones use the simplistic and damaging method of hitting children in the name of discipline because they do not employ more complex thinking that would result in appropriate and effective discipline practices that address both long and short term goals for children. How about your parents, Lavonne? Are you saying that they were "less than bright"? ;-) Doan |
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Paddle by proxy
Opinions wrote: LaVonne must have had a miserable childhood. She comes off as an extremely rigid person spouting the party line of the educational establishment as if were a religious catechism for which no alternative exists. She has the online persona of a drill sergeant. Your assessment is a wonder of depth and perception. More interestingly, she never takes the time to offer complete explanations. It's all been done here before, by her and others. Cats can be skinned in a finite number of ways. LaVonne's apparent style of teaching is known in higher academic circles as the *hide the salami* method. You mean challenge the student to do their own learning with resources at their disposal? We used to call that "lab." Consistent with many absolutely rotten instructors, her contributions to this newsgroup suggest that she is high on expectations and low in support. But you never really indicated how much you needed handholding. I presume that, like myself, when the student presents as sufficiently limited eventually, she too stops leading in recognition that providing crutches does not help the terminally dysfunctional. I cannot help but wonder how long LaVonne would actually survive in public schools teaching remedial reading or basic grammar construction to children of color in the Mississippi Delta or to sons of the Lakota in the *school-to-prison pipeline* of Winner, South Dakota. You have no idea how very funny that is in context of LaVonne's actual history. But then, that's private. How would her formal evaluations by school principals in those districts actually read in light of authenticated student achievement? Outstanding to Brilliant, most likely. That's why see is a successful college instructor of....guess who? Sadly, for America's children, LaVonne's level of rigidity has invited interventions that range from No Child Left Behind mandated testing to the Junkyard Prophet band's *dog and pony* show. I've no idea if she has support NCLB, but I'm going to take a wild guess and presume that she knows that testing an in infintesimal part of evaluting a students understanding and learning of a subject. I know the teachers in my family don't care for testing only as measures of academic acheivement. It appears that sans any lucid and fact based argument you have devolved into using the same tactics of blathering argument on the issue to attacking the person. Lying about one is no more credible than about the other. And everyone's got an opinion. You a pretty good teacher yourself, are yah? 0:- Doan wrote: On Thu, 1 Dec 2005, Carlson LaVonne wrote: The bright ones know how children best learn, grow, and develop. They are able to choose guidance and discipline strategies that are compatible with this knowledge. The less than bright ones use the simplistic and damaging method of hitting children in the name of discipline because they do not employ more complex thinking that would result in appropriate and effective discipline practices that address both long and short term goals for children. How about your parents, Lavonne? Are you saying that they were "less than bright"? ;-) Doan |
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